COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 1 Jun 2017

Business of Committee

Chairman

We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Ms Georgina O'Mahony, deputy director of audit. No apologies have been received.

The first business on the agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 25 May 2017. Are they agreed? Agreed. Matters arising from the minutes will be covered in what we will discuss shortly.

The next business is correspondence. Nos. 525A and 545A are a Revenue briefing document and an opening statement for today's meeting. We will note and publish them.

Category B relates to correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-ups from previous meetings. First in that group is No. 526B, correspondence dated 22 May from Bord na gCon providing a copy of its market strategy as requested during our engagement with it two weeks ago. We will note and publish it.

Next is category C correspondence from an individual dated 19 May, which includes an excerpt from a transcript of the 13 April committee meeting inquiring whether it referred to him. The clerk has already written to him confirming that it does. The individual states that there were three breaches of the Data Protection Acts when the secretariat forwarded three unredacted pieces of correspondence from the individual concerned to the Arts Council, he does not accept that the matter is closed as stated by myself at the last meeting when this matter was dealt with and he has no record of receiving an apology from the clerk, the committee or me for the breach.

To clarify the matter, the committee wrote once to the Arts Council on 18 November 2016 and attached three items from the individual that were unredacted. This was an oversight and the secretariat has tightened its systems to try to ensure that this does not happen again. It has also provided an explanation to the Data Protection Commissioner regarding the error as part of her examination of the matter.

I reiterate that the reason we forwarded the individual's correspondence was to ensure that the issues as raised by the correspondence to us were put to the Arts Council. However, we fully accept that the same objective could have been achieved by redacting the individual's name and personal details and that not doing so was regrettable.

Is it agreed that we write to the individual and apologise to him for the oversight in not redacting his personal details? Agreed.

No. 519C is correspondence dated 19 May from John McCarthy, Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, updating the committee on land purchases by Galway County Council. He states he has requested the director of audit of the local government audit service to consider the matter and expects to hear from her in early Autumn on this issue. Is it agreed to note this? Agreed.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

We might also say that when it is done we would love to see it.

Chairman

We will write back, acknowledge it and ask for the outcome to be forwarded to the committee.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

This is a specific request on a specific issue. There were many land deals at that point so will this not be looked at anyway? It is just one of many pieces of land bought.

Chairman

The local government audit service does not report to the committee.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

The local government audit will look at it now, on request.

Chairman

Yes. We requested the Secretary General, who has requested the local government audit service to look at it, but the local government audit service does not report to this committee.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I was aware of that. I will come back to it.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The Deputy may remember it stated that, resource-wise, it randomly selects certain things for audit, and we asked that it examine this.

Chairman

There will probably be other opportunities through another committee to follow up this matter.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

We will come back to it. That is okay. I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

No. 527C, dated 23 May 2017, is from Deputy Mick Wallace, raising a number of issues about NAMA's sale of part of its Northern Ireland loan portfolio under the name Project Shift. I propose we write to NAMA enclosing a copy of the letter and ask for a response in the first instance, and when we receive it we can deal with the response. We will also note that NAMA is back for what I call its annual visit to the committee on 29 June. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will publish the letter from Deputy Wallace. Some of the matters referred to in the letter were covered by us as part of our Project Eagle report.

No. 528C, dated 25 May 2017, is from Dr. Seán Brady, interim chief executive officer of Bord na gCon, apologising for an article that was published on its website igb.ie/talking-dogs. It was put up by a freelance journalist but was removed as soon as it was brought to the attention of the chief executive. Is it agreed to note and publish the letter? Agreed.

No. 529C, dated 11 May 2017, is from an individual requesting that the committee supports recommendations for a protected disclosures manager in the Irish Prison Service. I propose that we write to the Irish Prison Service to request an update on what is being done to address the issues raised by the external review carried out and mentioned in the letter and to ask for a response on the issue. The external reviewer is a retired judge appointed by the Minister. I ask that we hold over this particular issue to next week. As Chairman, I received documentation last night on this matter. The issue of a protected disclosures manager in the Irish Prison Service went through an external review process by a retired judge, who has done a comprehensive report, which was recently sent to the secretariat. People need to read the report, and it is well worth reading, on how a protected disclosure is dealt with in the Prison Service, and read the various correspondence issued on this. I received an email last night, which I will give to the secretariat for further consideration. We will come back to this issue at our next meeting. We will hold this over for our next meeting for further discussion and follow up at that stage.

No. 530C, dated 2 May 2017, was received from an individual and concerns the use of public funds by the HSE National Ambulance Service in the north Leinster area and the alleged purchase of vehicles for senior managers outside approved procurement policy at a purported cost of €350 000. I propose we write to the HSE for a detailed response on the issue. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 531C, dated 18 May 2017, is from an individual providing an explanatory note on the reason for the involvement of An Garda Síochána in golf course projects. We will note-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I did not see that, and I had better have a look at it.

Chairman

It is on the screen there.

Deputy Alan Kelly

John O'Grady.

Chairman

We do not need to mention the name in public at this stage.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Apologies.

Chairman

There is a clear address on the second page. The Deputy can see it. Will we forward it to the Commissioner for a response in advance of the next meeting? We will note it and consider it as part of our correspondence schedule for the Garda. We will put it in our file in connection with the Garda Síochána so people can note it.

No. 533C, dated 20 May 2017, is from an individual drawing attention to non-compliance by Dundalk Institute of Technology on the procurement of the services of a Beijing company in relation to student recruitment. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment, if he is in a position to do so, before we decide to take the matter any further. The essence is that it did not go through normal procurement processes. In a situation not just outside the State, but also outside the EU, and dealing with a limited number of people in Beijing in a position to provide the service, will the Comptroller and Auditor General clarify whether Irish procurement rules hold?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They would apply where an Irish body is spending funds. We drew attention initially to the fact that it was included in the procurements that had not been competitively procured. The president of Dundalk Institute of Technology argued it was impossible to do so, but a number of companies provide similar services. The correspondent suggests that of course there are opportunities to procure. It is a point of view.

Chairman

Even though we have dealt with this, we will forward a note. Should we ask for a response from the Department of Education and Skills, the HEA or the college?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The college has already put its view on the record.

Chairman

Yes, it gave its view here in public.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I would have thought if the Chairman is looking for a further response, perhaps he should contact the HEA.

Chairman

We will write to the HEA and will include this in our correspondence to be considered when we are doing our report on third level colleges.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

What is our response to it, given that it has been highlighted?

Chairman

We will come to it in our work programme. We have had three days of public meetings with selected third level colleges. We must complete our report and we will include this in our report. As to what conclusion we will draw, we must discuss it.

No. 532C, dated 18 May, is from an anonymous individual making some comments about our meeting with the Garda on 4 May 2017. We will note it and include it in our document file on An Garda Síochána.

No. 534C is a copy of correspondence dated 26 May 2017 on the alleged waste of taxpayers' money. This has been sent to the health committee and others. We will just note it. A copy has been sent to us. It was not directly posted to us.

No. 535C, dated 31 May 2017, is from one of our witnesses yesterday, Mr. Michael Howard. We will note it and include it in the documentation in our file on An Garda Síochána.

No. 536C, dated 29 May 2017, is from an individual raising matters about the University of Limerick and the review to take place there. We will note this and include it for consideration when we are drafting our report on third level colleges.

No. 537C, dated 29 May 2017, is from NUI Galway, providing clarification on matters raised on the "RTE Investigates" programme aired on 25 May 2017. The matter relates to project budgets and procurement practices. I propose we consider this as part of our consideration of matters relating to third level colleges. We will come back to it.

The next item on the agenda is reports, statements and accounts received since our last meeting. The only item of accounts lodged since our last meeting are the accounts of the National University of Ireland, Maynooth.

They are for the year ended September 2016. I compliment the university on its timely production of accounts. This will be the yard stick to which all other third level institutions will be required to comply.

There is a clear audit opinion. The recognition of the deferred pensions funding asset is a standard issue that is raised with third level colleges by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The statement on governance and internal control discloses specific instances of non-compliance with national procurement policies. Procurements to the value of €929,000 from 14 suppliers not subject to competitive processes are highlighted in the audit opinion. We will write to the college asking for a detailed explanation of those procurements, why that happened and its proposals for ensuring that these matters do not recur. We will seek that letter independently.

That is the end of reports, statements and accounts received, and the next business on our agenda is our work programme. I propose that we enter private session to discuss the work programme up to July. We must deal with the third level colleges issue and the Garda Síochána issue. When we conclude private session, we will resume in public session to deal with the Revenue Commissioners.

The committee went into private session at 9.22 a.m. and resumed in public session at 10.27 a.m.