Vol. 951 No. 1
31. Deputy Lisa Chambers asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his Department’s assessment of the report of the public sector pay commission; the implications for the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23565/17]
What is the Minister of State's assessment of the report of the Public Sector Pay Commission and its implications for the Defence Forces? Will the Minister of State make a statement on this?
As the Deputy will be aware the pay commission report was only published last week and contains a comprehensive and detailed analysis of pay and pensions issues in the public sector and notably addresses issues surrounding recruitment and retention. I can assure the Deputy that my Department is acutely aware of the commission's findings.
The Deputy may wish to note that my Department made a detailed submission to the commission setting out these very matters and this is specifically referred to by the commission in paragraph 6.13 of its report. In keeping with the Government's commitment to openness and transparency, the commission will be making all of its submissions and inputs publicly available on its website. Pending publication of same and in light of the anticipated forthcoming negotiations I am not in a position to disclose further specific details of the Department's submission.
In the context of the Defence Forces, I note that the commission in paragraph 6.29 accepts that there are challenges surrounding the recruitment and retention of personnel in specialist streams such as information and communication technology, ICT, pilots and avionic technicians. The commission also stated that while remuneration is important in this regard there are other significant factors at play such as working environment, career advancement, etc.
As recognised by the commission its findings are matters to be addressed as part of the collective bargaining process. It is Government's intention to invite all stakeholders to commence negotiations shortly and this invitation will include the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association, PDFORRA, and the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO.
It is telling that the commission report singled out the Defence Forces and highlighted what we already knew, that we have a difficulty attracting people, including skilled personnel, and retaining them. The report found some evidence of specific difficulties in recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces, particularly in recruiting doctors, marine engineers, engineers and in retaining specialists and experienced personnel in engineering, ICT, pilots, avionic technicians and air traffic controllers. We are all very aware of the shortages, particularly in the Air Corps as the next priority question based on a memorandum from the general officer commanding the Air Corps, shows. Did the Department supply that memorandum to the commission? It would have been very useful information for it to have.
The submission from the Department of Defence and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform accepted that the Defence Forces are experiencing a significant exit of trained and experienced personnel due to the improving economy and the increased opportunities available to further develop their career and to achieve higher levels of salary and remuneration than that available within the service and to benefit from better overall terms and conditions. The Minister of State correctly points out that it is not just a question of pay but also career advancement, job satisfaction, being appreciated, valued and working in an environment that is fit for purpose and recognising the value of people. Those are the things that are lacking.
Having read the document on the report of the Public Service Pay Commission published last week I have no doubt that it addresses the needs and concerns of the Defence Forces. Anyone who has read the report will recognise that they are covered comprehensively. I agree with the Deputy this is not just about pay but there are several issues concerning retention in this document.
As I stated in my first reply the Department, under my direction and in accordance with the required protocols, submitted observations to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for its consideration and onward transmission to the commission, which has reported. It considered the submission by the Department, PDFORRA and RACO. The Chief of Staff of the Irish Defence Forces spoke to me about several of the concerns brought to his attention by the members which he brought to my attention and I have also spoken to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
In the context of public sector pay we have to be able to compete on some level internationally. The pay and salary of serving members are important. When one in five families in the Defence Forces receives family income supplement, FIS, we know that we need to address this shortage. We all want Defence Forces that are fit for purpose. Will the Minister of State commit his Department to seeking a special incentive in this regard? This report gives the Minister of State and his Department significant leverage with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the upcoming discussions. On page 57 of the report there are tables showing the attrition rates within the defence sector. In quarter 4 of 2008 there were over 11,000 working in the defence sector but by the end of quarter 4 in 2016 that figure was down 13%, a huge decrease. While working conditions, career enhancement and development are vitally important and we can address those matters internally, the pay element is hugely important. In the upcoming negotiations it is up to the Minister of State and his Department to make the strongest case possible for increased salaries across the board.
The Deputy can rest assured that I will be making the strongest case possible as I have done to date. I spoke at length yesterday at Cabinet on this and personally to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. This is part two of the replacement of the Lansdowne Road agreement. It is up for the public pay talks. PDFORRA and RACO will be invited to those talks where they can put their case. I will continue to make the case heard for the Irish Defence Forces. There are 57,000 families supported through FIS, not just in the Irish Defence Forces but across a variety of other sectors. That is why the FIS was put in place, to support families who are not earning enough to support themselves. Over 9,000 people applied recently when the Defence Forces advertised to recruit enlisted personnel and cadets. There are many young, energetic men and women willing and able to join the Irish Defence Forces.
32. Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if a decision was taken in 2016 to prioritise the ministerial air transport service over the provision of top cover for search and rescue missions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23355/17]
The Minister of State is fresh from his top billing on 'Prime Time' last night. Will he account for and elaborate on the decision to prioritise ministerial air transport over and above search and rescue or air ambulance services, including air transport for children needing organ transplants?
Let me be clear that no decision was ever taken to prioritise the ministerial air transport service over the provision of top cover for search and rescue missions. When I was informed of the situation in the Air Corps regarding its plan to suspend the standby roster for out-of-hours and weekend contingencies, I directed that a meeting be held immediately between Department officials and the military authorities. I requested them to look at options to safely maximise the availability of aircraft for those services which were not the subject of specific service level agreement targets, those provided on an ‘as available’ basis. This includes top cover and inter-hospital transfers.
The key issue identified by the military authorities at the time was the loss of experienced pilots qualified to fly the relevant aircraft, that is fixed-wing CASA maritime patrol aircraft and the rotary wing AW139 helicopter, which resulted in an inability to staff the standby roster for out-of-hours and weekends. It was determined that standing down the ministerial air transport service was not a solution for the roster or for improving availability outside of normal hours for those as available services.
In response, I have ensured that a range of actions have been put in train which are intended to increase relevant pilot and other specialist numbers. This will lead to improved availability of Air Corps aircraft in the medium-term. I also want to assure the Deputy and the House that in the event of a national emergency all Air Corps assets and personnel can be recalled and tasked as required.
In the memo from Major General Kevin Cotter, dated 30 June 2016, he specifically states:
Accordingly, the Air Corps has identified the following as priority missions that can and must be maintained as these missions are governed by SLAs and are high profile outputs:
1. Emergency medical services
2. Garda air support
3. Maritime patrols
4. Ministerial air transport service
In concentrating on these missions it will not be possible to provide the out-of-hours standby coverage that the Air Corps has been providing with the AW139 and the CASA aircraft.
We have gone over some of this ground before, given the tragedy off the Mayo coast which led to some of the information which was not shared prior to that coming into the public domain.
There are major questions about this. When will the required specialist personnel become available to provide 24-hour cover? When will the Minister of State change the memo to give effect to the Air Corps providing inter-hospital emergency ambulance services, which involves organ transplants for children, or the search and rescue top cover? Has consideration been given to allowing other members of the Air Corps to fly such planes? Some are fully qualified, but are not allowed to fly because they are not officers or pilots.
Let me address the Deputy's first matter first. Ministerial air transport missions are, by their nature, scheduled services where flights are pre-arranged. The standby roster did not service ministerial air transport missions. Standing down the ministerial air transport service was not a solution for the roster and would not improve the availability of services by the Air Corps.
The Learjet that is most frequently used for ministerial transport is not suitable for top cover missions. It is also not a solution for roster problems faced by the Air Corps because a very small number of pilots are qualified to fly it. Therefore, using the Learjet on standby is not an option.
Flying any form of aircraft is not like driving a car. People are specifically qualified and trained, and are required to have service hours, in order to qualify to fly fixed wing aircraft, ministerial air transport, CASA or rotary wing aircraft. Each pilot is required to have specific training for each aircraft. I will revert to the Deputy on the other issue raised, namely, that there are people who can fly all aircraft, because I am not aware of that.
I did not say they could fly all aircraft. In fact, anybody who can fly a Learjet has already come through some of the training which would deal with CASA aircraft and is qualified to fly such aircraft. Once a person is qualified to fly a Learjet, he or she is taken off the roster for CASA aircraft. One of the problems is that fully qualified pilots manage to come off rosters. There are enough pilots within the Air Corps to fly CASA aircraft and provide cover, but they are rostered in a different way or are rostered for different duties.
Separate to that, others who are members of the Air Corps work part-time as pilots on CASA aircraft and other planes, including Learjet. Due to the fact that their qualification is external to the Air Corps it is not recognised by it because they are not officers. There is a particular problem within the air force, common to many other air forces around the world, in that the officer class does not recognise those of a lower grade under its terms. The qualifications personnel may have achieved outside of the Air Corps are not recognised because they have not gone through the cadetship programme.
I have been informed that pilots are rated on specific aircraft, which means they have specific flying hours and so on. Anyone who is able to fly a Learjet would have gone through CASA training. I am not aware of the issue raised by the Deputy, but I will revert to him. This is about the safety of whatever mission is required by the Air Corps. The people involved must be highly qualified and trained and have the required amount of flying hours.
Reference was made to inter-hospital transfers. I am aware that the Learjet has been used on occasion for inter-hospital transfers, depending on the availability of aircraft at a particular time. I will revert to the Deputy with further information. I do not want to put something on the record of the House of which I am unsure.
33. Deputy Lisa Chambers asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the action his Department took when the general officer commanding the Air Corps outlined serious concerns regarding the extreme pressure personnel losses had placed on operating units in the Air Corps; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23566/17]
I want to know what action the Minister of State and the Department of Defence took when the general officer commanding the Air Corps outlined serious concerns regarding the extreme pressure – this is his language – personnel losses had played in operating units in the Air Corps.
I wish to reassure the Deputy that the manpower requirements of the Permanent Defence Force are monitored on an ongoing basis in accordance with the operational requirements of the three services. Personnel are posted on the basis of operational need across the organisation at home and abroad. As there is a significant turnover of personnel in the Defence Forces, targeted recruitment takes place on a regular basis so as to maintain personnel numbers at or near agreed strength levels.
As with other areas of the public service, challenges have arisen in respect of the recruitment and retention of personnel in particular areas of expertise. The Air Corps has experienced retirements of highly experienced personnel and these retirements are outstripping the recruitment and training of replacement personnel. The loss of experienced personnel is driven by a range of factors, including the availability of attractive job opportunities in the wider economy. The loss of experienced personnel, including a shortage of experienced pilots, has impacted on the availability of Air Corps services. There are currently restrictions also on air traffic control, ATC, services in Baldonnel.
Every effort is being made to address the personnel requirements of the Air Corps. Actions are underway to return a full level of air traffic control services to the Air Corps. ATC training is taking place and options to ensure the longer-term sustainability of ATC services in Baldonnel are being identified by an ATC working group. These measures will facilitate a gradual extension of operational hours for air traffic control services in Baldonnel this year as newly qualified personnel develop their expertise, with an anticipated return to a full 24-7 service in early 2018.
Regarding pilot retention, the implementation of a range of proposals, including professional and personal development, working environment, operational deployments, career advancement and terms and conditions designed to enhance retention of serving Air Corps pilots are being advanced by a civil military working group. In addition, the potential to attract back personnel who may have left the service is also being examined.
A range of other measures is also being pursued, including increased numbers of pilot cadets in training. A cadet recruitment campaign is under way. A number of personnel will complete ATC training between May and September and a further ATC course is being inducted. Promotions, including NCO vacancies in the Air Corps, will be filled from the recently launched NCO promotion competition. While these initiatives are under way, realistically it will take some time for a return to previous levels of capability in the Air Corps.
The memo dated 30 June from Major General Cotter is damning to say the least. It is almost a year since the memo was presented to the Minister of State and his Department. Over the course of the year, the Minister of State and the Department have been aware of major deficiencies in air traffic control and air ambulance transport. All we have got back to date is the Department saying it is looking at recruiting and promoting new members. It is shocking that we have not seen any marked improvement in the level of service provided and do not have 24/7 cover for top cover missions and air ambulance transfer. Within the memo, four priority missions were identified. Remarkably, air ambulance transfer and top cover were not included in the four. I have no major difficulty with ministerial transport being a service provided by the Air Corps to Government unless it impacts directly on services to citizens which I and every other citizen view as vital, namely, air ambulance transfer and top cover for search and rescue missions.
When the Minister of State was made aware of this, what action did he and the Department take immediately? Why are we not seeing results now and why are we not seeing an increase in the level of cover for those services? Why do we continue to have those four priorities in place? Why have air ambulance transfer and top cover not been included in the list of priorities as those missions which can and must be maintained?
Once I had sight of that memo, I told the Department and Defence Forces personnel within the Air Corps to sit down and look at exactly what services were under pressure. We were told about ATCs and I have people training in air traffic control at this moment in time. We have the highest number of cadet pilots going through the cadetship programme at this moment in time. I have increased that in 2017. We are at capacity in cadet training in the Air Corps and it will be the same in 2018 to ensure we train the full complement of pilots we can provide. I am also looking at direct entry and re-entry. These are issues one cannot fix overnight. One cannot just pick a pilot off the shelf and put him or her flying such and such a plane or helicopter. One cannot pick an air traffic controller off the shelf. These people have to undergo specific training. I am the first to admit we have challenges. However, inter-hospital transfer and top cover are the subject of service-level agreements between the HSE and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on an availability basis only. That has always been the case within the Air Corps.
I am glad the Minister of State touched on that because it was my next point. Does the Minister of State accept that inter-hospital transfer and search and rescue top cover are obligations the State has to its citizens? There should be no question but rather an absolute mandate for the Air Corps to provide these services. The use of the language "as available" is unacceptable and inadequate and it needs to be revised. The service should not be provided as available, but should be a mandatory obligation to citizens. Just as ministerial transport is now considered mandatory as one of the four priorities, air ambulance transfer and top cover should be mandatory.
The Department of Defence must listen when it is warned about difficulties in staffing and not always be reactionary. The Department should be ahead of the curve in identifying potential risks. It should not wait until it becomes a crisis and we lose lives before it reacts. That is what the Department is doing. It is moving from crisis to crisis and reacting all the time. It is never preventing a tragedy. We need to get ahead of the game rather than to be always chasing our tails. I ask the Minister of State directly to ensure that air ambulance hospital transfer and search and rescue top cover are made priorities for the Department of Defence. They should not be provided on an as-available basis but on foot of a mandatory Air Corps obligation to provide those services to our citizens, which is what they deserve.
This has been a long-standing tradition of service-level agreements.
Change it.
It is a situation which obtained prior to me coming into this office, prior to the time of Deputy Coveney and prior to the time of the previous Minister, Alan Shatter. It goes back to the days when Fianna Fáil was in power. A service level agreement was put in place between the Department of Transport and the HSE. I stand to be corrected, but I am almost certain that it was a Fianna Fáil Government that put that service level agreement in place. I am not prepared to enter a permanent agreement with any organisation unless we have the capacity to provide the service involved.
Deputy Chambers may have missed the point that the Air Corps provides an excellent air ambulance service from Athlone which was established by the Government immediately preceding this one in conjunction with the HSE and which is saving lives. I will continue to promote the message that the Air Corps is doing an outstanding job in that regard. Last week, we saw that the Air Corps was able to assist with the forest fires in Sligo and Galway. That is more assistance. We also assist An Garda Síochána in respect of its helicopter operations.
34. Deputy Noel Grealish asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the severance arrangements that have been introduced for enlisted personnel who have joined the Permanent Defence Force since 1994 and retire or are discharged in circumstances as identified by the Commission on Public Service Pensions 2000; and the steps he will take to ensure an improvement in pay and conditions for members of the Defence Forces, many of whom are currently living close to the poverty line. [23530/17]
I have put down this question on severance arrangements in view of the fact that members of the Defence Forces below the rank of sergeant have been allowed to serve a maximum of 21 years. Members at the rank of sergeant or higher may stay on until they are 50 years of age. As a result, more than 100 personnel a year are, in essence, forced out, many of whom are only in their early 40s. As finding other employment at that age can be very difficult, it is vital that we look after them properly.
As the Deputy will appreciate, military life places unique physical and psychological demands on individuals and it is necessary that Defence Forces personnel are physically and mentally prepared to meet the challenges of all military operations and to undertake their duties on deployment overseas. To this end, it is vital that the age and health profile of personnel be such as to ensure that operational capability and effectiveness are not compromised in any way.
The age and fitness profile of the Permanent Defence Force was an issue of serious concern during the 1990s and was the subject of severe criticism in a series of external reports, primarily those of the then Price Waterhouse consultants and the efficiency audit group. One of the key areas identified for urgent action by the audit group was the development of a manpower policy with an emphasis on lowering the age profile of Permanent Defence Force personnel. As a result, new terms and conditions were introduced for enlisted personnel enlisting after 1994. Post-January 1994, soldiers have different upper service limits or age limits depending on rank at discharge date and whether they are in a line or technician class. Their pensions and gratuities are payable immediately on discharge after relatively short periods of service and regardless of age. Their minimum qualifying service is 21 years for immediate pension and gratuity.
A claim was received from PDFORRA for a further review in relation to this matter and adjudicated on in December 2015. The adjudicator made specific findings on the matter. Officials in my Department are currently analysing the issues arising in relation to the implementation of these findings and will recommend to me any necessary legislative changes in respect of the terms of service of enlisted personnel. In terms of remuneration and pension provisions going forward, the new Public Service Pay Commission published its report on 9 May 2017 and the Government intends to initiate negotiations on a successor to the Lansdowne Road agreement ahead of budget 2018. Future remuneration of Defence Forces personnel will be dealt with within this process.
I note the recent advertisement of an additional assistant secretary general post in the Department of Defence. As the Defence Forces has a well-established human resources structure, I presume the person appointed will be responsible for just 440 civilian staff in the Department. The new and additional post will attract a salary of between €128,000 and €149,000. How does that appointment look to a soldier who is struggling to make ends meet and sleeping in his car while his wife and children are many miles away? Low pay is the biggest factor affecting recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces. In the wide-ranging Defence Forces climate survey of 2015, pay emerged time and time again as the major bone of contention. Of those interviewed, 78% did not feel their pay was fair. The survey report concluded that the issue must be addressed because if it is not, the Defence Forces will continue to lose highly qualified and skilled members.
There is a crisis of morale in our Defence Forces, as was evident in last night's "Prime Time" programme. Large numbers of members are leaving each year.
There are big operational problems which have led to ridiculous situations, such as the fact a soldier in Renmore barracks in Galway cannot get a new pair of boots or other kit but must instead go to Cork. All this and poor levels of pay make for a poor working environment. The men and women who do such a wonderful job as soldiers, sailors or air crew at home and abroad while they are highly regarded for their professionalism must be treated better and properly rewarded for their loyalty.
I do not accept there is a crisis in morale in the Irish Defence Forces. Actually I would say the opposite. We have issues and challenges, I will accept that, but we do not have a crisis of morale. The reason I say this is when we advertised in February this year for enlisted personnel and for the cadetship of 2017 more than 9,000 people, young men and women from throughout Ireland, applied. This is for enlisted personnel, the bedrock of our organisation, or the cadets, which is a very important leadership organ of our organisation. The Deputy mentioned the recruitment of a new assistant secretary in the Department of Defence. This is something I looked for once I was appointed because of the ever-increasing workload of the senior people in the Department. As the Deputy will appreciate, we have 12 overseas missions and a huge number of other areas of responsibility in the Defence Forces organisation. This has to come back through the civil side in the Department of Defence. The Deputy specifically spoke about personnel having to travel. Of course there are challenges about personnel having to travel and I have spoken about this. I have spoken to the Chief of Staff about this and it is something he has been trying to-----
The Minister of State will have another opportunity.
I know everybody in the House has the height of respect and admiration for every member of the Defence Forces and I acknowledge the tremendous work they have done recently regarding the gorse fires in Galway and the Minister of State mentioned this last night. With regard to the pay and conditions, it is a scandal that in this day and age the men and women of our Defence Forces are so poorly paid that many of them must rely on social welfare top-ups such as family income supplement. It is now the only sector in the country which has no place at the table of the Workplace Relations Commission, and it is appalling their partners and families must take to protesting outside barracks, as they have done in recent months, to highlight the conditions some live under.
As I stated previously, there are 57,000 recipients of family income supplement, not alone in the Defence Forces but throughout the public service and the private sector. I am not sure whether the Deputy has had an opportunity to read the report of the Public Service Pay Commission of May 2017. I ask him to read it. If he looks at it he will see how the Defence Forces are recognised and the challenges we face as an organisation are particularly highlighted. As I stated PDFORRA and RACO have been invited to the pay talks, which are part two and a follow-on from the Public Service Pay Commission. They will be part of the negotiations and I hope they will be recognised. I have spoken to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform specifically on this issue as the Department made submissions, as did the representative organisations, to the Public Service Pay Commission. I take on board the views of the Deputy and I will consider them with regard to pay.
35. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his plans for the development of naval capabilities, including increasing the role of the Naval Service in fisheries protection and monitoring Irish waters after Brexit. [23587/17]
I tabled this question to think big, look outward and look into the future as to what is the vision of the Minister of State for the development of the Naval Service. From my perspective, the north Atlantic is our largest area. Our sea area is ten times our land area. The north Atlantic is changing because of climate change and overfishing. We need to survey, monitor and manage the north Atlantic. We need huge marine conservation areas. To manage this and the scientific research we need to do in the north Atlantic the Naval Service should have a bigger role. I am interested to hear what are the plans of the Minister of State for the development of the Naval Service in this regard.
I thank the Deputy for his question. The Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2006 establishes the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, as the competent authority for securing efficient and effective enforcement of sea fisheries protection legislation and the sustainable exploitation of marine fish resources from the waters around Ireland. To this end, the SFPA has a service level agreement with the Department of Defence. This is intended to ensure efficient enforcement of sea-fisheries law at sea through the support provided by the Naval Service and the Air Corps. In accordance with this agreement, an annual control plan is agreed between the parties. This sets out the strategy for achieving sea-fisheries control targets each year. The Naval Service is also responsible for the operation of the fisheries monitoring centre, which is located at the naval base in Haulbowline and is operated by the Naval Service on a 24-7 basis.
The consequences of Brexit will depend on the manner in which, and under what circumstances, the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. It is therefore premature at this stage to anticipate in detail the implications of the UK referendum, including the impact on fishery protection requirements.
However, the Deputy may be assured the Department, the Naval Service and the Air Corps are working closely with the SFPA on Brexit. We will also liaise closely with the European Fisheries Control Agency and with other member states, as appropriate.
The 2015 White Paper on Defence sets out the investment priorities for the Defence Forces for the next decade. There has been significant investment in new Naval Service patrol vessels over recent years, with the commissioning of the LÉ Samuel Beckett in 2014, LÉ James Joyce in 2015 and the LÉ William Butler Yeats in 2016. A contract for an additional sister ship was placed in June 2016 at a cost of €54.3 million, bringing investment in the new ships programme to over €250 million since 2010. This fourth ship is scheduled for delivery in mid-2018. The White Paper on Defence also provides for further Naval Service vessels and the replacement of the Air Corps' two CASA 235s maritime patrol aircraft.
These measures will ensure the Naval Service and the Air Corps are well positioned to meet any requirements that may emerge in the coming period, including in their fishery protection roles.
I thank the Minister of State for the response and I appreciate it. I do not know whether it is the Minister, Deputy Coveney, or which of the Minister of State's colleagues is responsible for managing the marine protection areas which we are looking to develop. I believe we are responsible for approximately 1 million sq. km of sea area, so let us take 200,000 sq. km, which is what we would need to do in my mind from a conservation approach in terms of protecting fisheries for the future, protecting smaller Irish inshore fleets rather than just all of the big international fleets scooping up all of our fish and, as I have said, assessing what is happening in the north Atlantic where there is extensive change. This is the type of vision or projection we should go towards. If we do, then there is a case for really expanding the role and purpose of the Naval Service in terms of policing. If we are to do this and tell the international community we are creating these large marine conservation areas then we have to be serious about not just policing it but also monitoring and assessing the scientific information. Obviously, we would have to work with the Marine Institute and the RV Celtic Explorer and other vessels.
With regard to this sort of vision of us really turning to the Atlantic and taking seriously our responsibility for its management, backing it up with investment in the Naval Service to ensure we are doing this in a really big proper way, has the Minister of State thought about conservation areas of this scale and this level of investment in a big vision of us monitoring and protecting our waters, researching what is happening in the Atlantic and providing the Naval Service with one of the roles, in conjunction with the Marine Institute particularly, to ensure it is achievable and that we are seen internationally as taking a lead in maritime protection and conservation?
As I already stated, the fishery protection centre located at the naval base in the Haulbowline is operated by the Naval Service on a 24-7 basis. I absolutely totally agree with the Deputy. One of the issues I found when I came into the Department was that prior to the Irish Naval Service deploying to the Mediterranean and getting television, radio and media coverage, many people in Ireland did not even know we had a Naval Service or the important work it does in securing our marine. I am not sure of the massive acres of area covered that we have in the Irish Sea and the north Atlantic. The Deputy is dead right and I absolutely take his points. The Government made a commitment in 2012 to invest €250 million in the ships replacement programme. I have named the ships which have been recently commissioned. We need a Naval Service that is fit for purpose.
It is more important that we protect our fisheries stock and that we have the infrastructure to be able to carry out that work.
Those vessels are very welcome, and the investment programme in 2012 was not a small investment given the economic situation at the time. However, I am looking for the Minister of State to join with his ministerial colleagues in setting a big ambition of very large-scale marine conservation. My understanding from talking to naval officers and others is that the current system is very hard to police. It is very hard to police certain fleets of other nations. The best case example might be New Zealand or other countries where they shut down large areas. The benefit of that is to fisheries. Another benefit is that the small inshore fleet might begin to have a viable future. Also, we could take some of the analysis that was done in Galway Bay, SmartBay, and do it as a major research project out in the Atlantic. The scale of ambition I am talking about is in terms of very big marine conservation areas that are rigorously policed and scientifically analysed. That is where the opportunity lies. I am not too sure if the four vessels we have procured, among them the LE William Butler Yeats, the LE Samuel Beckett, the LE James Joyce, are necessarily well commissioned for that sort of scientific work. It is a slightly different approach to boarding a Spanish trawler or whatever. We want to keep everything out in certain areas, make it a no-catch zone and have a Navy to serve that mission and to do the scientific research to back it up, which is the Navy we should be moving towards.
I would agree, but some of the Deputy's questions should be to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine.
I am sorry. The Minister, Deputy Creed, yes.
However, we work very closely with the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority and in 2016 alone, we had 1,249 boardings on Irish and foreign vessels by way of protecting our fish stocks in our area of responsibility. I take the Deputy's point. I understand where he is coming from and the sentiments he has expressed but a large part of his question on policy is for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We work very closely with the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority and I have to say that the new ships are of huge importance in terms of protecting our sea stocks.
