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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 May 2017

Vol. 951 No. 1

Questions on Promised Legislation

I remind Members that in respect of promised legislation there is one minute per question and one minute per answer.

A just and fair society is a clear objective of the programme for Government. In that regard, it is important for Ministers to tell the truth and refrain from engaging in fake news about specific issues. I refer, in particular, to the social welfare budget. Recently, a campaign on welfare cheats was launched by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Leo Varadkar, setting out the big figure of €500 million which could be gained from tackling fraud. Deputy Willie O'Dea tabled a parliamentary question, to which we received a comprehensive reply yesterday setting out, lo and behold, that only €41 million in payments was attributable to fraud. Social welfare inspectors conduct face-to-face interviews and desktop reviews through which they discern the level of fraud. In this instance, the nation has been the victim of an extraordinary degree of fake news. The subtext of the Department and the Minister sponsoring an expensive media advertising campaign to tell untruths and brand welfare recipients in general - that is the most serious issue - appears to be about creating the impression that there is welfare fraud involving hundreds of millions which the Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, is going to get because he wants to be leader. For those in receipt of social welfare payments, it is not good enough and does not speak to the just and fair society and the creation of a social economy as articulated in chapter 3 of the programme for Government. Does the Taoiseach agree that it was wrong and unfair to suggest there was a sum of €500 million when, in fact, according to the details of the Minister's own parliamentary reply, the figure is only €41 million?

Fraud is the wrongful acquisition of money from those who have to pay for it.

The Deputy understands that. The Department of Social Protection conducted nearly 950,000 entitlement reviews and investigations across all of its schemes last year. The reviews yielded a sum of €506 million in control savings for the year. Reviews and investigations of entitlements are conducted by social welfare inspectors assigned to the-----

I ask the Taoiseach to read through what he has available. Of the sum of €506 million, how much is attributable to fraud?

We cannot have a conversation across the floor.

Four minutes are already gone.

A review can involve a desk-based assessment of entitlements, a direct inquiry-----

It is in the parliamentary reply the Taoiseach is reading. It says it is €41 million.

I do not have the answer to the Dáil question Deputy Martin raised specifically yesterday.

The Taoiseach is reading from it. Obviously whoever wrote the reply to the parliamentary question wrote the note. If the Taoiseach reads through it he will see €41 million in fraud.

I have got the savings recorded by social welfare, which come to €506 million-----

He has to be impartial.

-----from jobseeker's allowance, pensions and household benefits.

That is not fraud.

Little old ladies getting their inheritance before they die is not fraud. They are afraid for their lives.

The campaign is to deal with the question of welfare fraud.

The elect Leo campaign.

This is the campaign to address the fraudulent receipt of moneys from the taxpayer through social welfare schemes of one sort or another.

I admire the Taoiseach's neutrality.

All the time that is being taken up on this particular matter simply means other Members do not get a chance to raise their questions.

It appears the Minister has either disappeared or decided he is going to personally investigate fraud himself.

The programme for Government states the Government will honour its commitment to recognise the state of Palestine. That vote was taken by the Dáil and Seanad two and a half years ago. Níl an Rialtas tar éis faic a dhéanamh i dtaobh an ábhar seo ó shin. Tá go leor Teachtaí tar éis é a ardú leis an Taoiseach, ach níl le rá aige ach go bhfuil sé á staidéar ag an Aire. In the meantime, the failure of governments, including our own, to stand up for the rights of Palestinians has led to the continued theft of Palestinian land and water, the building of illegal settlements and, in recent weeks, the commencement of a mass hunger strike by more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners. Like the Middle East peace process, the international consensus on a two-state solution has been paralysed for years. The Government has an opportunity to demonstrate international leadership. Will the Government now finally agree to recognise formally the state of Palestine?

The Government has shown great international leadership in restoring the country's sovereignty, rescuing our economy from the depths of despair in which it was and sending out that signal internationally. The Deputy is engaged in a campaign throughout the country with flags for Palestine all over the place, and he is entitled to do so if he wishes, but the point is we have had a very clear view in this country for very many years that we would support a two-state solution in respect of Palestine and Israel. We also said we would be happy to recognise the state of Israel provided it could be shown clearly it was in the interests of achieving a two-state solution.

I think the State recognises the state of Israel. It is the state of Palestine.

Unfortunately, the Government here is not responsible for what happens in Gaza or the West Bank. We have shown an exceptional interest in this. We have been very clear through the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and with ambassadors from Palestine and Israel on many occasions about this. That is the position.

What is the position on the commitment?

We are quite prepared to work in the interests of the recognition of the state of Palestine provided it can be shown clearly that is in the interest of achieving a two-state solution. Unfortunately, these discussions are not at that point yet.

Over the past year the Taoiseach has shown significant interest in the north inner city and to his credit he has spent a good deal of time there. He tasked Kieran Mulvey with producing a report, which most of the stakeholders in the community believe charts a route forward that will be very beneficial. Last week, I visited the north inner city with my former Dáil colleague, Joe Costello, and we spoke to many community groups. There is growing scepticism about the ongoing commitment to this project and, in particular, about the prospect of the Taoiseach not being in the role he currently occupies. In February, the Taoiseach announced he would shortly appoint an independent executive chair to lead a number of the implementation structures, but three months later we have not had this appointment. The people I spoke to in the north inner city are very fearful. As one of them put it, if the Taoiseach disappears over the horizon so will the commitment to this really important project. When can we expect to hear the announcement of an independent chair and what other specific actions does the Taoiseach intend to take to implement the report?

I thank Deputy Howlin. He can take it for granted that interest will not wane in this matter-----

Does that mean Paschal is going to be a candidate?

-----not just because the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform represents the north inner city. I will go there in the coming weeks to see the ongoing progress on a whole range of projects. Deputy Howlin's question is valid. We made a commitment and we will see that funding is provided for a chief executive to oversee the implementation.

When will that happen?

I do not want to put a specific date on it, but I would say certainly before the end of the summer because it is a commitment. I have made the point on many occasions that it was a case of meeting all of the communities and people who had worked so hard in an area in which seven murders had taken place and people had been neglected, left behind and forgotten about. This is an instance where the Government is actually engaging with the community leadership to ask it what it wants.

They are now getting concerned.

There is a plan and it is being followed. I will visit the area with the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, in the next short period to see the progress being made on a range of matters. We reconfirm the appointment of an executive officer with an office and an oversight role to ensure the plan is being implemented in full.

In dealing with the housing crisis the Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, mentioned the repair and loan scheme. Last March he said the scheme was being rolled out in Carlow and Waterford. When will it get as far as County Kerry? When I come up the road every day, I look to see if I could meet any fellow who is rolling anything in our direction, but so far I have not met anyone. I am wondering if Minister Simon could get Minister Leo to give him a hand with rolling out the scheme towards County Kerry. Perhaps the Taoiseach might also give it a push. Apparently, they are very busy dealing with other matters, but if it takes three months to roll out the scheme to Carlow and Waterford, it will take three more to cover the entire Twenty-six Counties. I ask the Taoiseach to give it a push because we need the scheme in County Kerry as much as people in Carlow, Waterford or any other part of the country.

Kerry is bursting at the seams with all of the people from all over the world who want to go there. All of the reports I have received from Killarney, Dingle, Kenmare, Killorglin, Cahersiveen and all of the places on the Wild Atlantic Way to north Kerry indicate that people are coming from all over the world. I do not believe the Deputy when he says it will take three years to roll out the scheme to County Kerry. Any time I go there I see more than enough action on the roads and other activities. It is up there with the best of them. Did I not open a football centre of excellence in Tralee?

(Interruptions).

Because the Deputy asked me specifically I will have a conversation with the two young Ministers, Minister Simon and Minister Leo, to get them working together in the interests of County Kerry.

The Taoiseach looked very well in the Irish Examiner today in between the two of us.

I call Deputy David Cullinane and say to him: follow that.

The Taoiseach will know that the programme for Government committed to progressing the establishment of technological universities. I have raised the matter directly with him several times. I have also raised it with the Minister for Education and Skills, but the legislation has still not been progressed. It has not been recommited to Committee Stage. The Minister for Education and Skills knows that institutes of technology across the country want legislative certainty to allow them to proceed. Will either the Taoiseach or the Minister for Education and Skills who is present explain to the Dáil when exactly the matter will be resolved? We are coming under pressure from the presidents of institutes of technology across the State who want to know what is happening, when it will happen and when they can proceed. The last time I raised the matter with the Minister for Education and Skills he said he was engaging with stakeholders. Has he engaged with them? Has the work been finished and when will we see the new legislation to advance the issue?

The Minister explained the position to Deputy Brendan Howlin yesterday, but he will answer again for the Deputy, if he so wishes. Repetitio est mater studiorum. Does the Deputy know that?

As I did not get an answer yesterday from the Taoiseach, I hope I will get one today from the Minister.

As it happens, I absolutely share the concerns of both Deputies from the south east about the need to progress the legislation, but I have to make sure that when we come back to the Dáil, we will be in a position to proceed. My officials have had discussions with the Teachers Union of Ireland. That was one of the particular issues that needed to be dealt with.

An agreement has been reached. I understand it will be put to a ballot. It is a very significant step forward. I hope we are now close to a position where we can proceed to the Dáil.

On page 5 of the programme for Government, there is a commitment to equality of opportunity and to support people with disabilities and maximise their potential by removing barriers that impact on access to services, education, work and health care. It states the Government should be guided by two principles, namely, equality of opportunity and improving the quality of life for people with disabilities and their families. It also states: "With the peace of mind that service supports will remain available, we can empower people with disabilities to live independent lives, provide greater independence in accessing the services they choose, and place them in a stronger position to tailor supports to meet their needs". Last weekend in Sligo, service users and families of people with disabilities who required respite services had to travel from Sligo to Carrickmacross, a 320 km round trip. The Taoiseach, as a family man, will know families have enough stress and worries without having that concern. They had to travel the distance in question despite the fact that a state-of-the-art respite centre was built six years ago to offer a service in the region. I now understand it is being used for decongregation. The Minister needs to consider this very seriously.

Deputy Michael Moynihan briefly on the same matter.

On the same matter, emergency funding was to be provided in 2017 for respite facilities and to give service users respite adjacent to their homes. Is it true that that funding, provided in 2017, is now being used to pay back money that was borrowed to provide respite services in 2016 and that there is no emergency funding available at all in 2017 for respite services? That is what is coming through to us from the HSE.

I take Deputy Scanlon's point in that I agree there is pressure in respect of respite beds and respite accommodation. I am not aware of the details of what he raised in respect of the new facility that was provided a number of years ago or what Deputy Michael Moynihan said about no emergency funding being available now, but I can confirm for the Deputies that the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, has certainly raised this matter generally at Cabinet meetings on a number of occasions, particularly in respect of the stress on respite facilities. He is working on it. Perhaps I will have him contact both Deputies about the particular issues they raised.

In the programme for Government, there is a policy to achieve ambitious tourism goals. Today, Drogheda councillors will vote to close St. Laurence's Gate to traffic. It is a barbican gate and it was built in the 13th century in the medieval town of Drogheda. It is widely considered to be the best of its kind in western Europe. Will the Taoiseach commit to funding it and investing in it to have it opened to the public as a tourist amenity similar to Westgate, the barbican gate in Canterbury?

It is not really relevant to the Order of Business.

It is in the programme for Government under ambitious tourism goals. Will the Taoiseach commit to investing to have it open to the public as a tourism amenity similar to the barbican Westgate in Canterbury given the huge potential to develop tourism in and attract tourists to Drogheda and the south Louth region?

Bless the Deputy for her innovative assessment of the programme for Government in terms of flexibility for hospitality and tourism. I suggest that the local authority prepare a plan or strategy for the barbican gate, if that is not done already, and that it consult both Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland. These gates are important, and they are important to tourists who have an interest in buildings and gates like the barbican gate. It is not for me to give a commitment here saying finance will be granted from a particular departmental Vote. I suggest the Deputy start with the local authority, talk to the tourism interests and also the businesses in Drogheda-----

It has been done, to no avail.

-----and prepare a plan indicating how the gate might be reopened and used for hospitality purposes.

The programme for Government commits to reviewing the regulation of the private rental sector. We all know that a chronic lack of supply is pushing up rents and forcing families into homelessness.

This week, however, almost 8,000 properties are advertised on Airbnb in Dublin but only 1,200 properties are available to rent on daft.ie in the city. Airbnb is a good idea, which we support, but many of us are concerned that some landlords are abusing the service. The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government is currently asking the industry to self-regulate and, as we all know from our recent history, self-regulation is not the answer when it comes to property or rents. When will the Government finally legislate to close down the Airbnb loophole?

I will have to come back to the Deputy with detail of any work being prepared on that Bill.

Page 54 of the programme for Government deals with the delivery of home care packages and primary care in the community. Could the Minister for Health carry out a root and branch check and an audit of the service being provided by the HSE between service providers and the end user? Currently, there is a major disconnect and people who have been approved for home care packages are not getting them. I have a number of such cases. For example, a severely disabled woman in a wheelchair has not been showered for 19 days. The service provider has changed and there has been no follow up or continuity of service. This is a major problem across the board and it is unfair on the people who have been approved for these packages and who need them to be delivered. My understanding is there is no follow up to see if the service that has been approved is being delivered, and if the end user is happy with the service and is getting the service that is paid for by the State. Will the Taoiseach or the Minister come back to me on this?

I will have the Deputy's question referred to the Minister for Health. This is a matter of management and monitoring. When approval is given for a home care package, it should be followed through. Clearly, it should not be approved in the first place if it cannot be delivered. There is little point in having people under the assumption that they will get a service through a home care package if there are no resources there to meet it. The number of home care packages has improved significantly. I will have the Minister respond through management of the HSE as to what the situation is in the area the Deputy is talking about.

The programme for Government makes a commitment to deliver a school capital programme. Land costs is a cross-government issue. I am glad the State is taking an interest in Dublin 6 and providing schools in that area, which is important for the children of the area, but I am deeply concerned by media reports of the cost of the land in Harold's Cross as €23 million. This is almost the same as the entire budget for purchasing land for the year. It represents almost a doubling of the Department's land costs. This is an issue for health and housing, in particular, and not just education. What are the cross-government plans to deal with excessive land costs and to deliver its capital programme?

The Minister for Education and Skills will answer that question.

The position in respect of any purchase, and it is true of the purchase in Harold's Cross, is that it is based on an independent valuation in order that the State is getting value for money. Since the recovery in land values, we have to pay more for land for schools and, as I indicated to the Deputy yesterday at the joint committee meeting, that has increased in each of the past few years but, at the same time, we have increased the number of schools that we are building. The capital budgets have increased to put us in a position to deliver an increased number of school places year on year. The Deputy is correct that any land acquisition is expensive, particularly in city centre locations, but we still have to provide resources to educate children in those areas and, therefore, we have to pay the going price.

Pages 96 to 99, inclusive, of the programme for Government deal with crime prevention, justice and equality. Reference is made to security of the public, ensuring a strong and visible police force in every community, investing in CCTV cameras in key locations, building on the success of rural and community schemes and tackling criminal gangs. There have been ten reported break-ins in my constituency of Roscommon-Galway over the past number of days and I can tell the Taoiseach about a half dozen more that people have not reported because they count them as minor. Rural Ireland is getting a raw deal on security and people are upset. Old people are worried, and I do not want to scare them, while many small businesses are being targeted as well.

I want to know when the Taoiseach is going to implement what he said in the programme for Government. When are we going to have real security in rural Ireland? People are scared and we need to do something about this.

This is a matter that the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality has referred to on many occasions. The Government has provided substantial moneys for new vehicles, motorbikes, CCTV and opportunities to improve the security for rural Ireland, by which I mean small-town Ireland as well as "rural rural Ireland". Clearly, the advantages of the text alert and communities being vigilant about these things are important. The Government seriously funded Operation Thor, which took out of operation many of the gangs that were specialist operators at breaking into houses, travelling quite a distance to do so. I am quite sure that gardaí in the Roscommon area are aware of reported break-ins or burglaries and are on to the perpetrators of these crimes. I hope the perpetrators are brought before the courts in a short time. It is a case of gardaí working with communities and availing of the facilities that are there. I find throughout vast parts of the country that the text alert through community leadership is very strong. There are occasions where suspicious movements or activities are reported and dealt with very early. It is a case of working through communities, with communities and the gardaí to best effect for protection and safety of our people.

As the Taoiseach will be aware, there are many Private Members' Bills from all sides of the House backed up and not being discussed. Many will never get to see the light of day. In view of that, could the Taoiseach explain why a Private Members' Bill in the name of myself and Deputy Mary Butler has been allocated two hours tomorrow afternoon when there is a similar Bill in the name of another party, namely Sinn Féin, already at Committee Stage? I am proposing to withdraw my Bill. It is a gross waste of the House's time to discuss the same legislation twice. As I said, the other Bill has gone to Committee Stage. Perhaps the Chief Whip or somebody could explain to me how this occurred.

While I have the Taoiseach's attention, there is a section in the supply and confidence agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael which states that all Opposition Members' Bills that have been passed at Second Stage should be sent to Committee Stage within ten weeks. Would the Taoiseach agree with me that that commitment is not being honoured?

I do not control the draw that takes place for Private Members' Bills. One of the changes brought about in this particular Dáil was the right of backbench or Opposition Deputies to produce Private Members' Bills. The Ceann Comhairle wrote to me last week to have a meeting next week about this matter with the chairs of the committees, because there are 140 Bills backed up currently. On the number that have been taken by Government, whereas the intent of the Private Members' Bill might be very good, it does not make it into a Bill that is fit for purpose. The central idea might be correct, but Government and Departments have had to do extensive work in working with and amending those Private Members' Bills to make them suitable to go through the pre-legislative scrutiny and eventually to be passed here. I do not know why a second Bill is down for discussion. I assume the right was there to withdraw this, if I am correct. The Ceann Comhairle might deal with that.

I can answer that question. It was selected because it was put into the lottery by the Fianna Fáil Party.

Can I suggest to the Ceann Comhairle that we use the time more constructively to discuss some other thing that otherwise would not be discussed?

Perhaps, but I cannot make that decision. The reason it was selected is because it was requested to be included in the lottery.

The people who were selecting will have known that the other Bill had gone to Committee Stage anyway.

We will see what can be done.

Would it be possible for amendments to be put to the other Bill at Committee Stage and for it to be dealt with that way?

Rather than wasting time.

The Government has recently confirmed that it will be introducing FEMPI legislation for 2017 - a Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill. We all know that legislation, among other things, deals with pay and pensions for public servants. The Government has agreed that new talks will take place to extend the Lansdowne Road agreement which by definition will require amendment to the FEMPI legislation.

Will it be published and passed before people are expected to vote on the pay and pension amendments that might follow and will that be published before the summer recess in mid-July?

Or the annual review of FEMPI, which is also due next month.

FEMPI has been reviewed every year since it was introduced. I believe the Minister has referred to a date for this. I will confirm to Deputy Fleming what is the Minister's intention. His view of having an extension to the Lansdowne Road agreement includes all of the unions, starting with the official engagement and then taking it to an intensive level pretty soon. I will come back to the Deputy on the issue.

In many places in the programme for Government, there is a commitment to rural Ireland. There is also a commitment to excellence in animal health and disease prevention. In the context of that, there is an issue in Sligo with the regional veterinary office. I raised this issue in the House before. I was informed that there was going to be a review. My understanding is that this review has recommended the closure of the Sligo veterinary office. I want to get a commitment from the Government that that is not going to happen, because it would have a huge detrimental impact on the whole rural community of Sligo, Leitrim and the north west. If that facility closed, it would mean there would be no veterinary office anywhere north of the line between Dublin and Galway. That would be totally inappropriate. Will the Government give a commitment that it is going to keep the veterinary office open in Sligo?

It is for the Minister, Deputy Creed, to answer that.

I have answered this question for Deputy Kenny and others who have an interest in the regional veterinary offices, not just in Sligo but also in Kilkenny, Athlone, Cork, Limerick and Backweston. They are a critical part of the offering for the agrifood industry and for the exports they underpin to more than 180 different countries. What the Department has done, which I think is prudent, is review the operation of the laboratory service to see that it is fit for purpose and publish the report, on which there is currently extensive engagement with stakeholders. Notwithstanding the political grandstanding on the issue, there have been no decisions taken on the withdrawal of a service of any form in respect of that report.

That concludes Questions on Promised Legislation. My apologies to the four remaining Deputies who were not reached.

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