Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 2017

Vol. 957 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Housing Adaptation Grant Applications

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

This Topical Issue is about housing and the problems people are experiencing getting grants. It is the wish of the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Government that the social housing lists be reduced. This could be done if a number of things were rectified. To be eligible for grant aid from Kerry County Council a person must be 66 years of age. A number of years ago - I cannot recall when - a person in his or her late 50s, whose house was in bad repair, was eligible for grant aid of approximately €8,000, which is a lot of money to those who qualified for it. I have been approached by a number of people aged 50 years upwards who have been refused grant aid because, as I said, to be eligible for a grant a person must be 66 years of age. Many of these people end up on the social housing list because their houses are in bad repair. It may be that the roofs of the houses are leaking or that the windows and doors are in a bad state. Also, many of these people are unemployed. They might be in good shape but they cannot get work. If they were disabled they would be eligible for the disabled person's grant. As these people do not qualify for grant aid for house improvements they end up on the housing list.

In regard to the improvement works in lieu, IWL, scheme, while funding provided under this scheme is deemed to be a grant, it is actually a loan. Those who qualify for it are required to pay back a set amount each week to Kerry County Council, often by way of deductions from their social welfare benefits. Many people are being denied this facility because of the stipulation that to qualify a house must have cavity block walls. People whose houses have cavity block walls do not need a grant. People whose houses have stone built walls do not qualify for the improvement works in lieu scheme but they only find this out when their applications have been refused because of this stipulation. I am asking that this provision be reviewed because it is totally unfair. It is the people whose houses have stone walls that are in greatest need of this grant, which in my view should be termed a loan. Applications for these loans are required to be vetted by housing engineers. Applicants should be told in the first instance that if their house has stone walls they should not apply but they are not told this until after an application has been vetted by two engineers. The purpose of the first engineer visit is to determine whether the works qualify under the scheme and this is followed up by a visit from a second engineer, such that much time is invested in and wasted on assessment of applications. I am asking that the Minister review these two schemes. If he does so, it will help stop the flow of people onto the housing lists, as is currently happening in Kerry. There are many such cases arising in the Kerry local authority area.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government (Deputy Damien English)

I thank Deputy Danny Healy-Rae for raising this matter. As Minister of State with responsibility for housing and urban renewal in the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, I am aware of the challenges we face in delivering housing supports to a range of vulnerable households and groups throughout the country. We held a competition last week in regard to new technologies and developments to help address this situation.

I am also very aware of the social benefit accruing from the housing adaptation grants in facilitating older people, in particular, and people with disabilities in continued independent occupancy in their own homes for as long as possible. Our priority and, I am sure, that of Deputy Danny Healy-Rae is to keep people in their homes and communities, where they want to be, for as long as possible and thus keep them off the housing lists. That is our aim and we do everything we can in the Department and across other Departments to help encourage this.

The housing aid for older people scheme provides grants of up to €8,000 to assist older people living in poor housing conditions to have necessary repairs or improvements carried out. Eligible works include structural repairs or improvements, rewiring, replacement of windows and doors, sanitary facilities, heating and so on. The detailed administration of the scheme and the prioritisation of individual cases is a matter for local authorities who are familiar with the applicants and their particular housing conditions. This scheme and related schemes were reviewed by my Department in 2013 to identify how they could become more focused and targeted to those who are most in need. Based on the recommendations of this review, the eligibility age limit for the housing aid for older people was increased from 60 to 66 years to bring it in line with the majority of supports for older people. The Deputy mentioned that the age limit in this regard was previously set at 50 years but that he cannot recall when that was the case. I am not sure either when it was set at 50 years but I know that it was increased from 60 to 66 years in 2013. A lower age limit can apply in certain circumstances at the discretion of the local authority. This may happen in particular hardship cases or where medical guidance is provided in the case. However, I do not favour, and I do not intend, to reduce to 50 the age that ordinarily applies to this scheme because I believe that would be very much stretching the definition of a scheme that supports older people. There is no point in my misleading the Deputy: there is no intention to reduce the age limit in respect of eligibility for this scheme but, as I said, the local authorities have the discretion mentioned.

These grants need to be directed to those most in need and I believe our older people - they being people 66 or over, with some discretion for exceptional hardship cases - are those who warrant this support. We do not have an endless budget and we need to try to provide assistance to those most in need. That is not to say there are not others who also have need for support but every scheme must have its limits and criteria and I believe that prioritising this scheme for our older people is the right approach.

The Deputy also raised an issue in regard to the improvement works in lieu scheme. My Department provides funding to local authorities under this scheme so they can repair, improve or extend privately-owned houses that are occupied by people who are qualified for social housing, as an alternative to providing them with local authority housing. This makes sense. The Deputy is correct that it also takes them off the social housing lists and it maximises the usage of existing houses and sites, where possible. There is no rule under this scheme about cavity walls or stone built walls. What is in the criteria for the scheme is that improvement works to be funded by the local authority should be structurally sound, free from damp and weather-tight. This makes sense; nobody would expect a council to invest public money in a property if it does not consider it satisfies these requirements. If a council did this, it would rightly be criticised for not assessing the building and my Department would be criticised for funding it. There is no rule in regard to cavity or stone walls. If this has been cited as a reason for refusal of an application and the Deputy has examples of this I would be happy to review them.

The Deputy will appreciate that my Department is not involved in every assessment and every decision that a council makes on individual applications nor should it be. It is right and proper that such decisions rest with the local council but if the Deputy is unhappy about a particular case, he should raise it with the council directly. If the Deputy has a number of examples of where this has happened I will be happy to review them. There is no rule of the type mentioned by the Deputy.

The Department will continue to fund these two important schemes, the housing aid for older people scheme and the improvement works in lieu scheme, with the funding being targeted to those most particularly in need.

This is an issue close to the Acting Chairman's heart. We have increased the funding in that space this year, and rightly so. We are doing a great deal of good work here and we want to continue doing that.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Minister of State for his response. He had some interesting answers, particularly regarding the issue of houses with stone walls. What I stated about it is a stipulation by our local authority and it said it was a Department rule. I will have to investigate that further.

The housing aid for older people scheme is a great scheme and it had ensured that many elderly people have been able to stay in their own homes. We really appreciate that. A person can be old at the age of 50 or 55. A women who was 102 years old contacted me by phone the other day and from my conversation with her she did not seem to be old. It is all about the way people interpret matters and their attitude. Some people on reaching the age of 50 can be in bad shape and not able to work as they were able to do when they were younger or they may not be able to get a job. We would like if such people could also stay in their homes. If matters improved a little, perhaps the age requirement for grant aid could be reduced. That is what I am asking for and that it be done as soon as possible, as those people would also like to stay in their homes.

We need to maximise the houses we have. Many houses are currently vacant but many of them are not fit to live in. I hope those houses are not being counted in the number of vacant houses because many of them are certainly not fit to live in. Even though some of these people are continuing to live in these houses, they are not fit for human habitation, having regard to the modern housing standards enjoyed by most people. If that rule for grant aid could be reduced to under the age of 60, it would help a good few people and keep them off the housing list.

A person can find a leak in a roof and on investigation more work may need to be done, which may be costly, and they may be afraid to do it, but repairing it can become more costly if the roof is not repaired when the leak is discovered. There is a good reason for reducing the age requirement. The Minister of State has made me wise about the stone wall issue. The answer I got from the local authority was that a house had to have cavity walls before it could be considered.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach)

The Deputy has taken fierce liberty.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Acting Chairman.

Deputy Damien English

I am very happy to confirm that our Department has no rule relating to stone walls. The Deputy can go back to the council and tell the people there to check the rules. If there is any doubt about that, I can send the Deputy a letter on it.

I am very conscious of the social benefits flowing from the housing adaptation grants for older people and people with disabilities in terms of facilitating their continued independent living for as long as possible, which is what the Deputy has highlighted. I assure him that I, the Department and the Government are committed to that. We spend the money in the best way we possibly can. That is why the funding available for the schemes was increased by 6% this year to an overall funding availability of €59.8 million nationally. Last year more than 8,000 households benefitted under this scheme and this year we predict that possibly up to 9,000 households could benefit from the scheme with the increased funding, and rightly so. It is a good scheme, we get good value for money and it aids people to stay in their homes.

We recognise that there is a range of people who seek supports of different kinds but every scheme must have some criteria on which to be able to measure it and spend the money accordingly. Certainly, people who are older and people with disabilities are the ones on whom we have to concentrate the resources and make sure they get what they need.

As I said in my opening remarks, we do not favour reducing the limit, although I understand why the Deputy would ask for that. It is not in our plans to do that and I do not want to leave any doubt in the Deputy's mind about that. Regarding the improvement works in lieu scheme, our Department is not involved in every decision and there is no rule regarding the need for a house to have block versus cavity walls. I want to be very clear on that. It is a decision taken on cases by the local authority concerned. That is where the Deputy should start in that respect and if there is a policy issue that we need to change, the Deputy should raise it with me. I would be happy to meet him and discuss it with him.

It is very uncommon to come across people living in a house that is not fit for purpose. There are many different schemes and supports available. Common sense is applied and there is flexibility in the criteria. While the bulk of the money is aimed at a certain age group there is enough common sense among those in most local authorities for them to be able to cater for a person's individual needs where that is required. That is what councillors and Deputies do. They find these cases and raise them with local authorities and generally we find solutions.

I would mention other schemes that are available. The home renovation incentive scheme is available for private and social housing. Under it, one can spend money on one's house and claim back the valued added tax, VAT, which makes it more attractive. There is the housing aid for older people scheme which I mentioned. There is a mobility aids grant scheme available through local authorities for people of all ages.. There is a better energy home scheme. There is also a grant scheme to replace lead pipes and fittings but, more importantly, the most recent scheme we brought in is one to tackle the issue of vacant properties. We recognise that many vacant properties are not fit for use. We brought in the repair and leasing scheme, where up to €40,000 per house is available to bring a house up to a high standard so that it can be used again. That is available to anybody who owns a property once they make it available for social housing. There are other schemes available for private housing. There should not be a situation where people are left in accommodation that is not fit for purpose.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach)

It is easy knowing that this issue is dear to my heart. The Minister of State has taken liberties also but I allowed him to do so.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

The Acting Chairman was interested in the topic.

National Broadband Plan Implementation

Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach)

Deputies Michael Moynihan and Seamus Healy are sharing four minutes for the next matter.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

Regarding the roll-out of broadband, a crisis is being experienced in communities which cannot access broadband. In terms of what is being trotted out as State intervention with respect to the national broadband plan, during the past four years there have been six different attempts announcing a new broadband plan. I was Opposition spokesperson on communication in the previous Dáil. The then Minister, former Deputy Pat Rabbitte, to great fanfare, announced in 2014 that there was a scheme and his successor, the former Minister, Alex White, had another scheme. We debated it across the floor of the Dáil in the context of State aids and it was brought to Europe and passed by it. There was to be a procurement process and contracts signed. However, nothing happened about it. The latest announcement is that it will be further delayed than was envisaged. If somebody had said in 2013 or 2014 that we would still be talking about the national broadband plan in 2017, we would be laughed at. There is a crisis due to the lack of access. Deputy Martin spoke about this yesterday. He visited Kanturk and spoke to small business owners. We have apartheid across the country in terms of broadband access, not only for people in rural Ireland but for communities who do not have access to it.

The Minister announced that Eir will connect 300,000 homes but, as I understand it, that is boosting the connectivity they already have. The reality is that the communities, households and businesses which want broadband cannot access it. There does not seem to be any coherent strategic plan in place. Where is the bid for it and the development of State aid to intervene to ensure broadband is brought to every community? We are dividing the country on this in a major way. It is the same as what happened with the provision of telephones in the 1970s and electricity connection in the 1940s and 1950s. I ask the Minister to give us a realistic plan and not some palaver that the Department has trotted out that there will be something in 2019, 2021 or some time into the next century. We need urgent action on this now.

Deputy Seamus Healy

Central Statistic Office figures released recently show that County Tipperary had a number of unemployment blackspots. That is an area where there is more than 27% unemployment. The figure across the county was significantly higher than the national average. A number of electoral divisions, 26 in all, including places like Farranrory, Mullinahone, Fethard, Ballingarry, Littleton, Killenaule, Roscrea, Graigue, Poyntstown, Borrisokane, Finnoe, Ballyphillip, Kilcommon and Templemore, had 5% unemployment above the national average. I give that detail before I move on to speak about the national broadband plan. Broadband is a vital piece of infrastructural development for industry and job creation.

A minimum of 30 Mbps is essential in order to work from home, to maintain and create employment and to establish new industries, in particular in rural areas. There is widespread concern and dismay that the Minister's recent announcement will delay further the implementation of the roll out of broadband in rural areas. This goes back to 2012 when it was initially announced. Deputy Naughten may be the third Minister to deal with this. It appears now that there will be no construction of broadband in rural areas until at least 2019 and that it will take a further four to five years to have the broadband structure in place in rural areas. There is widespread concern and dismay on this. Will the Minister outline a realistic plan for broadband throughout rural areas?

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Denis Naughten)

In recent days there has been some ill-informed commentary in regard to the national broadband plan which surprised me. It is important that I state the factual position for the record of this House. The national broadband plan is a Government priority and will deliver high speed broadband to every citizen and business in Ireland. Our ambition is clear. It is to achieve 100% coverage of high speed broadband across Ireland, urban and rural. It is important to be clear that the objective of 100% coverage of high speed broadband will be achieved through a combination of accelerated investment by commercial telecoms operators and a State intervention for those parts of the country where there is no certainty that commercial operators will provide a service.

The Government's national broadband plan has been very successful in encouraging increased levels of investment by commercial operators. This in turn means that more people will have access to high speed broadband at an early date and also reduces the number of premises to be included in the State intervention. Ireland would not be experiencing the current level of investment by commercial operators were it not for the strong commitment by this Government to the national broadband plan. As a direct result of the Government’s commitment to deliver the national broadband plan we are witnessing a step change in the numbers of homes and businesses that are getting access to high speed broadband.

Over the next 76 weeks, farms, schools, homes, post offices and businesses in rural parts of Tipperary will get broadband access, and the vast majority of these will be fibre broadband. That is one in three premises in County Tipperary which did not have broadband until now.

In the constituency of Cork North West, there will be 6,188 premises. That is just short of one in three premises which did not have access to high speed broadband this time last year. That will happen within the next 76 weeks. The figures speak for themselves.

When I became Minister 12 months ago, only 52% of premises in Ireland had access to high speed broadband. Today that has increased to 61% and in the next 76 weeks over 77% of premises in Ireland will have access to high speed broadband. With commercial investment and the Government national broadband plan that will rise to more than nine in ten premises in this country by the next 100 weeks. If Deputies are looking for evidence that the commercial sector is taking the Government’s commitment to the national broadband plan seriously, they do not have to look beyond the hundreds of millions in hard cash that industry continues to invest, with an average of €1.6 million being spent each day.

I will turn now to the procurement process being managed by my Department to select a bidder, or bidders, to build out a high speed broadband network to those areas where commercial operators will not provide a service. The procurement process is making good progress in parallel with the roll out by commercial operators. There is no question of the Government waiting for any commercial investment to conclude before shovels are put in the ground on the national broadband plan State intervention phase. I have stated this on several occasions so I do not understand the inaccuracies that some media are currently reporting on the timelines. In April of this year, the map for the procurement process was finalised and it now includes 542,000 premises. Last month bidders were invited to submit their detailed solutions by September. The detailed solutions stage of the procurement process is the final stage before moving to final tenders.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I do not doubt the Minister for a moment. Coming from Roscommon, the Minister, Deputy Naughten, understands it. However, if one takes the figure of one in three that he quoted for Cork North West, that will be places such as Ballincollig, Macroom, Charleville, Kanturk. I am talking about other regions such as western Duhallow and other rural communities. The Minister will forgive me for being cynical but I have listened to Ministers for four or five years saying they are making good progress. What does that mean? What does reporting on timelines mean? As society is moving on and as technology develops and proper broadband becomes a basic tool of life, it is even more serious than electricity or the phone, it is more like running water. I appeal to the Minister to grab this with both hands because it is a crisis. When people look at buying houses or sites, they want to know about broadband connectivity and when will it be in place. When I said I was raising this issue, many people said they do not even have mobile phone coverage in some areas of the constituency, never mind broadband. Good progress is not enough. The Minister needs to tell us what the timelines are because we have heard it all before.

Deputy Seamus Healy

The lack of high-speed broadband is squeezing the life out of rural Ireland. There is widespread concern and dismay that it might be delayed further. I welcome 15,000 premises, or the one third, which will get high-speed broadband within the next 18 months, but what about the other two thirds, the other 30,000? When will they get it? From reports and from a question to which the Minister responded, it suggests that the roll-out of broadband for that 30,000 will not commence until January 2019. Will the Minister confirm the position in regard to those 30,000 premises in Tipperary and the equivalent across the country? When will the work start and when will the installation commence and when will it be completed? We will be seven years on from the initial announcement of the national broadband plan.

Deputy Denis Naughten

To clarify, those 15,500 premises in Tipperary and the 6,188 in Cork North West are rural premises in very small villages and at crossroads and rural farmhouses. We are currently passing one house every minute of every working day. That momentum will continue until every premises in this country has access to high-speed broadband. I am determined to make sure this is fulfilled. Deputy Moynihan is right to be sick and tired of people promising dates. I am sick to the eye teeth about that. My focus is on delivery. We are delivering pure fibre broadband to these homes. The types of speed they have in New York are now available in isolated rural communities throughout this country. That will continue until every one of these premises get it.

Deputy Healy asked what will happen in the meantime, before these premises get it. That is a legitimate question. I have just come from the most recent mobile broadband and wireless task force meeting. As we speak, we are rolling out infrastructure in 4G and wireless broadband services. Two weeks ago, I made an announcement regarding Eurona Ireland. Imagine is rolling out wireless services across the country. This is happening as we speak. People are getting access to services.

Every single possible operator will provide as many options to people both in the short and medium term. I am determined to ensure every single premises will get this as quickly as possible and not one day later than is absolutely necessary. I am putting as much pressure on as I can to ensure that both the commercial and non-commercial aspects of this proceed without any delays so people can get broadband.

I ask Deputies to consider the facts. Within the next 76 weeks, as Minister I will have delivered broadband to one in every four premises in this country. That is on foot of the actions I have taken as Minister. I intend to continue with this until every single premises has broadband.

Hospital Facilities

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Minister of State for taking what is a very important Topical Issue matter relating to the provision of health services in County Kildare and west Wicklow, as well as the infrastructure we have for those health services. As the Minister of State is aware, Naas General Hospital is an acute hospital with 243 beds, providing inpatient, general medical, surgical and acute psychiatric services, as well as a 24-hour emergency service to its immediate catchment population of Kildare and Wicklow. That is close to 250,000 people. Naas General Hospital works closely with Tallaght hospital and shares many consultant posts. Naas General Hospital is part of the Dublin Midlands hospital group, as the Minister of State knows, and Trinity College Dublin is the academic partner.

The hospital's current endoscopic unit is within one building that has been deemed not fit for purpose following a joint advisory group inspection in 2009. It comprises one endoscopy room in a prefabricated structure and the Minister, Deputy Harris, visited it last November and is very aware it is not fit for purpose. Endoscopy and day ward development for the Dublin Midlands hospital group is a key enabler for group-wide development and cross-site work, particularly with regard to Naas and Tallaght. Naas General Hospital received planning permission in January 2015 for the development of the new endoscopy and day ward unit, which would increase day ward capacity from 11 to 25 day beds. I will touch later on some of the demographics of County Kildare and west Wicklow, with their rising populations, and the staff and management in Naas are doing an amazing job despite increasing attendance at the hospital. For example, accident and emergency attendance has increased more than 4% and inpatient attendance has increased by more than 2%. There are capacity issues in Naas due to the increased volumes and staff are doing a remarkable job. Staff morale has been affected by the fact that a previous Government ten years ago promised this endoscopy unit. There was a belief it was coming but it never materialised.

As we head into a review of the capital plan, this is a crucial development for health services in Kildare. There is a bigger benefit. The Minister, Deputy Harris, had meetings at the end of last year and in Leinster House this year with the consultants from the endoscopy unit in Naas and representatives of the hospital group. The strongest case did not come from Naas but from Dr. Susan O'Reilly, and those from St. James's and Tallaght hospitals, who will see a major benefit in Naas developing its endoscopy unit. There will be a benefit for Kildare residents who will not have to travel and there will also be a reduction in waiting lists, and St. James's Hospital has very significant urology waiting lists. The capacity element and these benefits mean there is a really strong business case for this to happen.

Enabling works for the project have been carried out already, which primarily consist of an upgrade to the hospital power supply system. They were undertaken between 2014 and 2016 at a cost of €1.5 million. The project is very much shovel-ready and unlike other projects in the hospital grouping, if we can secure State funding for it, we can go straight away. It has gone through all the approval processes with the Health Service Executive and design and planning stages are complete. It is ready to go. However, the capital cashflow required to fund the project is awaited and not yet allocated.

The cost of the proposed new build is €11 million spread over three years and, depending on start date and phasing options, the cost may be spread, with approximately €2 million in year one, €5 million in year two and €4 million in year three, so all the €11 million would not be needed upfront. As a key priority, the project would increase our ability and capacity to manage our increasing elective workload across a range of services for Kildare and west Wicklow in the Dublin Midlands hospital group in specialist areas such as ear, nose and throat treatment; urology; neurology and gastroenterology. Naas and Tallaght hospitals have recently appointed consultants in all these areas and these are excellent practitioners, working under difficult conditions. They deserve better and increased capacity so we can tackle waiting lists and ensure Kildare people do not have to travel for such services or wait any longer than they do.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Jim Daly)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter. It is timely as the Departments of Health and Public Expenditure and Reform are facing into the mid-term review of the capital spend. I appreciate it and it is helpful for the officials in my Department in trying to secure necessary funding for very important projects. The Deputy made the point very well about the importance not just of this project as a stand-alone issue but it serves a population of more than 220,000 people. It is networked with bigger hospitals in Dublin, with an overall benefit accruing to the hospitals with the supply of an important service. I welcome Deputy Heydon's focus on this project. It is vital that my Department gets this funding under the mid-term review to progress this worthy project.

I welcome the opportunity to update the House on this Naas General Hospital project. As the Deputy will be aware, my colleague, the Minister for Health, met the management of Naas hospital in April 2017 to discuss the plans for increased endoscopy and other health care services. The Dublin Midlands Hospital Group advised that this new development is a key strategic priority for the group. This development would help to clear the significant urgent scopes waiting list and Naas hospital would become a major ambulatory centre within the hospital group. This development would also enable significant strategic links to be developed between Naas, Tallaght and St. James's hospitals.

The project to be delivered at Naas General Hospital is more extensive than the endoscopy services department and associated works. It also includes accommodation and ancillary services to support the new physical medicine, physical therapy, oncology services and day procedures departments; a duplex - rather than simplex - reverse osmosis filtration system; and two lifts. All stages of capital projects, including the design and tendering processes, are subject to review to ensure the projects deliver value for money. This includes, where possible, future proofing to ensure capital developments meet not just current standards but that provision is made for additional capacity and improved equipping, and that these are addressed appropriately. This has resulted in a significant increase in the scope of the project and as a consequence its estimated cost.

I can confirm the Department has forwarded its submission under the mid-term review of the capital programme to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The submission is based on the projected funding requirement arising from existing commitments, strategies, demand-led service needs and commitments contained in the programme for partnership Government. At this stage in the process it is not proposed to specify the individual project details contained in the Department's submission. However, as with all health care projects, including this project, further investment in hospitals must be considered within the overall acute hospital sector infrastructure programme, the prioritised needs of the hospital groups and within the overall capital envelope available to the health service. I will be happy to keep the Deputy updated on this important project.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Minister of State for his response and it is good to know this has been an important part of the Department of Health's application to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for its consideration as part of the critical capital plan. For me, that is about all the different parts of infrastructure in this country that we will develop for the betterment of citizens. There are many cases where it makes economic sense to spend money on infrastructure that will lead to savings and this is a perfect case in point. It is about developing and expanding the endoscopy unit at Naas General Hospital and the hospital grouping of which Naas is a part. The group has identified efficiencies and Tallaght hospital is currently renting rooms at the Beacon Hospital for endoscopic services. If this unit at Naas was completed, the group could use it instead and generate savings for the group as a whole. St. James's Hospital would also use Naas for urology services. The completion of this new unit and extension would secure the future of Naas hospital as a key strategic part of the group. It is very important to the people of Kildare and west Wicklow but it is important we solidify its base within the group as a whole for the future.

I wish the Minister of State well in his new role with responsibility for mental health and older people. I look forward to him visiting Naas and Kildare, where there is a large population of older people because of the large number of nursing homes in our county. That is because of our close proximity to Dublin. Similarly, we have one of the youngest populations in the country and our mental health services are not fit for purpose. The former Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, Deputy McEntee, visited us recently and we have received an allocation for the expansion of the Lakeview unit at Naas hospital.

There is potential for further expansion. I know the Minister of State is aware, as we discussed it previously and will explore it further, of the need to ensure that Lakeview mental health services are fit for purpose for the next generation because they do not have the capacity currently to meet the significant demand in Kildare. That, along with the endoscopy unit, is a vital investment we need to see in our health services in Kildare. I look forward to working with the Minister of State and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on it into the future.

Deputy Jim Daly

I thank Deputy Heydon. I assure him of the Government's commitment to the future of this hospital and to seeing it progress, and not just as a stand-alone project. This year, €58 million has been committed to Naas General Hospital, which is a very significant part of the health budget and is well deserved. I pay tribute to and acknowledge the commitment and dedication of the staff in the hospital but also the management team, the hospital network and group that are looking ahead. They will have their ducks in a row to ensure that Naas General Hospital can avail of the funding that will become available in any capital development plan. I commend them for future proofing those projects and for their forward thinking in that regard. The integral role Naas General Hospital plays is recognised, not just in terms of the immediate catchment area of almost 1.25 million people but in terms of the entire hospital network, including St. James's and Tallaght hospitals. The number of people it serves is a crucial cog in that wheel. That is well recognised by the Department and the Health Service Executive and will ensure that these projects are progressed in a timely and progressive manner. I thank the Deputy for his interest in the project and ensuring that it receives ongoing attention at a political level and proceeds to completion. We all want to see those stages.

On the Deputy's closing comments about mental health services, I would be delighted to take him up on his invitation to visit the area to see what is not working and, more importantly, what is not working with a view to seeing how we can, with his help and that of the other Members in Kildare, address the shortcomings in the services. I look forward to that.

Mental Health Services Funding

Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach)

Deputies Anne Rabbitte, Catherine Connolly, Noel Grealish and Hildegarde Naughton have the final Topical Issue matter. The Deputies have one minute each.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Deputy Noel Grealish is not available.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Declan Breathnach)

The Deputies may share the four minutes three ways. I call Deputy Anne Rabbitte, who is the first person on the list.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Minister of State for taking our Topical Issue matter this evening. I begin by wishing him the very best in his new role.

Yesterday, an article in The Irish Times, which the Minister of State might have read, stated that over 2,400 children were waiting for child mental health services. The Minister may ask what that has to do with the Topical Issue matter I raise. I will quote two parts of the article. It states, "Anne O'Connor, national director mental health, HSE, points out that CAMHS was never designed to be a catch-all service, but to cater for children and adolescents with severe and enduring mental illnesses". She goes on, in an extensive article on which I compliment her, to refer to Galway youth counselling services. She states, "Deirdre Bermingham, managing director of Youth Work Ireland Galway, says that in 2011 they identified a gap for the young people they worked with in accessing counselling services". With funds from dormant accounts and the Maureen O'Connell trust they were able to help families. Since 2011, the group has managed to help 800 families, but now they face the closing of their doors.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I want to add my voice to that. This does not make sense. Galway's youth counselling service is excellent, with 800 adolescents having come through its door since 2012, 191 of those in 2016. It provides a service to Tuam, Ballinasloe, Loughrea and Galway city. It has struggled, but it has provided an excellent service. It is unique because that young adult age group can walk in the door, so most of the referrals are from families, schools, to a lesser extent from the health service, the gardaí and so on. It provides a unique venue in that young people are going in for other services and can avail of this specialist service. They are simply asking for a stable source of funding to enable this work to continue. It is cost effective on every level and I ask the Minister of State to take a hands-on approach to its imminent closure and prevent it.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I join my colleagues from Galway on this issue. We represent the constituencies of Galway East and Galway West. Deputies Rabbitte and Connolly have made very clear our concerns about the cessation of the mental health services provided by Youth Work Ireland in Galway. We met with young people in Youth Work Ireland Galway this week and they spoke eloquently about the benefits Youth Work Ireland Galway provides for them. This is a service which does not require a referral from a doctor. Teenagers and children as young as 12 can walk in and speak to a qualified counsellor at their ease in a very informal setting. There is huge benefit from that.

The funding that would be required to keep this service going is minimal in the grand scheme of things. I urge the Minister of State to look favourably on this service because it is critical for the young people of Galway East and West.

Deputy Jim Daly

I thank the Members for their contributions and for bringing this vital piece of infrastructure in Galway, and the challenges facing it, to my attention.

Mental health is a key care programme for this Government. Reflecting the priority we attach to this, HSE mental health funding increased from €826 million in 2016 to over €850 million this year. That will enable the continued development of a range of services including adult, child and adolescent, forensic and specialist services in mental health. In particular, €5 million has been provided to extend the counselling in primary care, CIPC, programme to under 18s.

The counselling in primary care, CIPC, initiative, launched in June 2013, is a national service provided under the governance framework of the national counselling service of the HSE. Short-term counselling is provided for adults with non-complex psychological problems aged 18 and over, and who hold a valid medical card. Referral into the service is by the person’s general practitioner, GP, or another member of the primary care team.

CIPC is a short-term counselling service that provides up to eight counselling sessions with a professionally qualified and accredited counsellor or therapist. Within the specialist secondary care mental health service counselling and psychotherapy is provided within community mental health teams, when service users are clinically assessed as requiring this intervention. Counselling is also provided by a range of voluntary organisations across the health service, and the HSE National Office for Suicide Prevention funds voluntary organisations such as Pieta House to provide support across a range of needs.

The provision of a quality counselling service across both primary and secondary care will be developed further, as resources permit. In the first instance, the HSE mental health division must ensure that the funding currently allocated is being used to best effect to deliver the best outcomes. I understand that Youth Work Ireland is a counselling service based in County Galway. It was formed in 2011 to deliver a youth counselling service. The group works closely with Jigsaw, Galway adult counselling HSE, primary care clinical psychology HSE and the Galway Traveller Movement. Counselling is also specifically provided for young people aged 12 to 21 years, delivered over a period of 38 weeks annually. Currently, the service is based in Galway city, Tuam, Ballinasloe and Loughrea. The counsellors who deliver the service are fully accredited and suitably qualified to work with adolescents.

Funding had originally been provided for a three year period by St. Vincent De Paul, as well as other sources such as Electric Aid, local schools, etc. This time-limited funding stream ceased last year. The local HSE resource office for suicide prevention provided €15,000 to ensure continuity of this service. The executive has recently committed to providing the same amount for 2017, in addition to a smaller funding contribution to the group from Tusla. I understand that the HSE is reviewing the position of the group, including the concerns raised by the Deputies.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Minister of State for his response, but it is the response I expected. I have been raising this issue through communications with the former Minister of State in the Department, Deputy McEntee, for the past number of months because a red flag was raised about it. I would have communicated with the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee, and the Minister, Deputy Harris and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, to try to find where it would fit into. I am delighted the Minister of State is here to take the issue today because it is a HSE issue.

It would cost €35,000 to run this service on an annual basis. If that figure is divided by the number of children who are availing of it, it works out at €175 of an investment per child over a 12 week period. These children are knocking on the door asking for help. As Deputy Connolly said, 50% refer themselves. Are we going to tell those children that we will not give them the €175 because we do not believe in that investment? Those children need to hear from the Minister of State that a lifeline in the form of an investment will be given by this Government. They can no longer shake fund-raising buckets at people in an effort to raise funding to keep the doors open and save children's lives.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I wish the Minister of State well in his new job. However, I honestly would have expected a different answer. This is a service that is working and it should be examined because it really could inform policy. The figure mentioned by Deputy Anne Rabbitte is in regard to the existing service, which is looking for a slight increase to cover three new areas, Gort, Carna and Clifden. It is a unique service because Jigsaw does not give a service to 12 year olds. We have these young children and adolescents walking in, getting a unique service and coming out the better for it, as they informed us when we met them on Monday.

We are standing here across party and across constituencies in that we have support from all three constituencies, Galway West, Galway East and Roscommon-Galway. I am appealing to the Minister of State to take a hands-on approach. I appreciate it is Civil Service-speak that has come back in the answer and we do not need that. These are young people who have shown an interest in the political system, who have used their time to educate us and who have given us a solution, and that solution will save the Government money. I hesitate to mention the suicide statistics for that age group and I want to avoid that. I ask the Minister of State to come back to us with a hands-on approach.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

This service is filling a gap in that Jigsaw does not provide services for 12 to 15 year olds. As Deputy Rabbitte outlined, it is €35,000 to continue the counselling service and €60,000 in total for the year. The HSE is reviewing the position. I ask the Minister of State to look favourably on this and to work with the HSE to see what can be done to ensure this critical service for our young people is continued.

Deputy Jim Daly

I again thank the Deputies. One of the interesting lines I took from what Deputy Connolly alluded to as Civil Service-speak is that, "The counsellors that deliver the service are fully accredited and suitably qualified to work with adolescents". For me, that is one of the more important lines. Obviously, before I make any commitment, either here or anywhere else, I have a responsibility to see that this is there. Given it is there in written form, I take comfort from that.

Deputy Rabbitte is right that this is not just 800 people but 800 families. It has a very significant impact on people, their well-being and the cohesiveness of communities to have families functioning well. Of course, we have to invest. As all speakers have said, these are people who walk in, put their hand up and say, "I need help". If we as a State are going to let them down and not react to their needs, then we are all at nothing here. While I cannot give a commitment right here and now, I will give the Deputies a commitment to take this on myself and to have a look at it. I will come back to the three Deputies within a week and will meet them within a week, and I will have some progress made on this issue within that week.

I am not aware the service has made any funding application to the HSE under section 39 or the lottery funding, which are the two avenues whereby it can apply to the HSE. Before next week, the Deputies might ascertain from the service whether it has applied to the HSE under section 39 or the lottery funding. I appreciate what the Deputies have said about the amount of money in the greater scheme of things. It is a critical service. I give my commitment to address this issue personally within a week and to come back to the three Deputies within a week. That is what we are here for, namely, to try to solve these issues.

Sitting suspended at 4.25 p.m. and resumed at 5.05 p.m.