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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jan 2018

Vol. 963 No. 7

Priority Questions

Capital Expenditure Programme Review

Dara Calleary

Question:

1. Deputy Dara Calleary asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the position regarding the progress of the capital review; the discussions he has had with the Minister for Health on health capital investment priorities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2486/18]

I am trying to get a sense of the timeline for the capital plan review. Has the Minister set a deadline for publishing it? I asked parliamentary questions of all of the Ministers, and I got no sense of major urgency in terms of their various priorities and negotiations with the Minister on the plan. This morning I want to focus specifically on the health element of the plan, bearing in mind the Minister for Health has said he intends to engage with the Minister on the capital plan and the Minister for Health's capacity review. What work has been done on this?

As we have discussed on a number of occasions, the capital review was published on 14 September last year and all Members of the Oireachtas received a copy of it. To recap, the review of the plan highlighted some important themes, which will closely inform and be incorporated into the analysis leading to the finalisation of a new ten-year plan. These themes include confirmation of the role of capital investment and aligning that investment to the changing demographics in Ireland. Also included is the importance of balanced investment throughout the country. It also looks at mechanisms to strengthen our resilience to risks such as Brexit. There is also the importance of having mechanisms in place to support efficiency and value for money for public capital investment and the need to ensure we have strong business cases in place.

Based on the analysis, the review of the capital plan identified a number of important sectors for investment. These include transport, education, housing and, to address Deputy Calleary's point, health. The findings of the review assisted the Government in selecting priorities for the allocation of the additional €4.3 billion capital expenditure allocated in budget 2018 for the period to 2021. Between 2014 and 2021, capital expenditure in Ireland will have doubled. We judge and expect that by 2021 capital investment will have reached €8.4 billion, of which €780 million will be designated to health.

We have consistently prioritised investment in health, with an increase of 19% in the health capital allocation since 2016, typifying our investment in that area. The Government's investment in primary care centres is an example of this, as 63 primary care centres were opened between 2011 and autumn 2017, bringing the total to more than 100.

To answer the specific additional questions the Deputy has put to me, just before Christmas the Department received the review of the Minister, Deputy Harris, on acute capacity in the health sector and we are considering it at present. It is a key input into the ten-year plan.

I thank the Minister. I am trying to get a sense of the timeline. Is the Department working to a timeline for the final process and publishing the final review in terms of the major projects identified, specifically with regard to health? The HSE stated in response to parliamentary questions that the capital cost of a hospital bed is approximately €1 million. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has mentioned looking for 500 extra beds in the system this year. Has he engaged with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, on this specific figure? It has been reported that the capacity review suggests we will need an extra 2,500 hospital beds in the system, which would have a capital cost of approximately €2.5 billion. The Minister has said there is €4.3 billion. I presume it will not all go to health but a great majority of it will do so. I am trying to get a sense of it. In response to the emergency department crisis, the Minister for Health made a number of statements and commitments. What backup and work has he done with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department to back up these statements?

With regard to the timeline, the key framework for all of this is the national planning framework. Public consultation on the national planning framework finished in recent weeks. An additional number of submissions were received by the Minister, Deputy Murphy, which he is now considering. When that work is done it will allow me to conclude where we are with our ten-year capital plan.

On the Deputy's question on the status of the number of beds that may be requested under the review of capacity in the health sector, the Minister, Deputy Harris, will bring that recommendation to Cabinet in the next two weeks. At that point we will be able to finalise what the recommendation will be and how it will be met.

With regard to the cost, the Minister, Deputy Harris, and I are engaging on what the cost per bed will be. There is no doubt that, like other forms of capital investment, a significant amount of funding is required to meet the type of challenge he is referring to. This is why we are looking at it on a ten-year basis. If we look at it over many years as opposed to year to year, it will give us a greater chance of being able to plan for this effectively and meet these high costs.

Has the Minister for Health made a specific request to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform for extra funding in light of the difficulties faced in our emergency departments in recent weeks and which will be faced over a number of weeks to come and in light of his statement on 500 extra hospital beds in 2018? Has a specific request been made to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform from the Department of Health on this?

The Minister for Health has submitted a view regarding the total number of beds needed in the coming period.

He has put forth his views on many costs in respect of the health service, which include beds but also deal with our position from the perspective of primary care centres and our needs - for example, how we fund a new national maternity hospital. I have an array of different health sector and other costs coming in and I am now working with many Departments to try to finalise what those costs are and assess what costs we are able to afford and deliver across the coming years.

Public Private Partnerships

Jonathan O'Brien

Question:

2. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if additional use of public private partnerships, PPPs, in capital spending beyond the 10% cap will be ruled out in view of the lack of a systematic cost-benefit analysis; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2405/18]

I ask the Minister to rule out the use of PPPs in capital spending beyond the 10% cap in light of the review and given the lack of cost-benefit analyses.

Public private partnerships are subject to the same robust and rigorous project appraisal process as traditionally procured projects.  In ensuring that Departments obtain the best value for money from public capital investment, PPPs, just like traditionally procured projects, are subject to the requirements contained in the public spending code.

The public spending code, PSC, is designed to ensure that the State gets the best possible value for all the resources at its disposal. The requirements of the code are based on employing good practices at all stages of the expenditure life cycle. Departments and other public service bodies need to be satisfied that the expenditure practices they employ are of an acceptable standard and that they consistently maintain these standards.  All projects over €20 million, which would include all PPPs, should be, and are, subjected to a cost-benefit analysis or cost-effectiveness analysis.

In addition, all public investment projects valued at €20 million or above must also be referred to the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, for advice on the best way of financing the projects, which would include all PPPs.

An expert group was established last year to review our experience of using PPPs and to make recommendations on their future use.  The group's deliberations will be completed alongside the finalisation of the new ten-year national development plan, and I understand that one of the recommendations will be that cost-benefit analysis for PPPs, as for all major projects, should in future be published.

With regard to the 10% cap, the current position is that when all currently planned PPPs are operational, the cost of unitary payments is expected to peak at about €410 million per annum in 2023.  This is expected to be less than 5% of the expected Exchequer capital allocation in the year, so there is still significant headroom for additional projects within the 10% cap that was introduced in 2015.

We will await the outcome of that review and see what its recommendations will be, but I am sure the Minister is well aware that the IMF recently commented on the use of PPPs. It recommended:

- Consider imposing restrictions on PPPs that are more likely to impose a future fiscal burden and consider "raising the bar" by requiring PPPs to achieve higher net cost savings compared to the public-sector benchmark.

[...]

- Make public the results of [those cost-benefit anaylses] of PPP projects, and the criteria used to select them.

- Conduct more ex post reviews of PPP projects, and disseminate the results; give more weight in these reviews to the economic and social impact of PPPs.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the review will be and whether we will get to a position where the cost-benefit analyses will actually be published. The Minister said the current projection is about 5%, and I am glad to hear that, but I am also a little concerned that he says there is that wriggle room there because, in my opinion, the long-term economic benefits of using PPPs are questionable. That is why we need these cost-benefit analyses to be published.

The answer to the Deputy's question varies by project. I believe private financing can play an important role in allowing important public projects to go ahead. The example I would give to the Deputy is the recent loan made by the European Investment Bank to allow us to move ahead with the new national children's hospital which is under construction. We have public private partnerships all over the country that, for example, have allowed primary care centres and schools to go ahead. I believe that in the future we will be able to find a way to allow the publication of cost-benefit analyses that will not impinge on commercial sensitivities but allow the State to get good value for such projects in the future. A matter with which I am dealing at present, of which I am sure the Deputy is aware, is any spillover effects that may have been caused by the difficulties concerning Carillion in the UK. Yesterday I met the National Treasury Management Agency, part of whose work is to deal with public private partnerships. We are working now to ensure that any potential difficulties here in Ireland are dealt with, particularly in respect of a number of schools that are part of public private partnerships. We want to ensure that the expectations of their pupils, their teachers and their communities are met.

It is interesting the Minister mentioned Carillion because its collapse has raised concerns. In British politics a number of commentators have commented on the use of PPPs and the contribution they have made. One politician said:

It enabled you [he was speaking to the Chancellor of the Exchequer], at least in the short term, to dress up considerable amounts of public expenditure and put them off the public sector balance sheet. We have now had enough evidence that it is not good value for money and therefore not sensible from the point of view of the taxpayer.

This was actually a Conservative politician, so there is not a left-wing-right-wing outlook to this matter. The publication of these cost-benefit analyses is important, and we need to find a way to achieve that without impinging on commercial incentives.

Public private partnerships have served us well in delivering many projects, either more cost-effectively than we would have been able to do them in the past, or indeed projects that we would not have been able to make happen at all in the past. I believe private financing and the role of public private partnerships generally in the future will continue to be of great help to us in making important projects happen. My key point, however, is that the answer to the question whether PPPs help will vary from project to project. There are particular projects - for example, in the area of transport - for which PPPs will be really valuable and will help. I will continue to approach the matter on a case-by-case basis to ensure we get good value for the taxpayer and are able to move ahead with important projects.

Bullying in the Workplace

Dara Calleary

Question:

3. Deputy Dara Calleary asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the number of cases of bullying and sexual harassment that have been reported within a Government Department since 2011; the outcome of such cases; the steps he is taking to ensure the safety and dignity of all employees within the public service; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2487/18]

Bullying and harassment at work has come into a new focus in recent weeks and months. I am conscious of the Minister's Department's Dignity at Work document. I want to know what engagement there is between his Department and other Departments on the issue of bullying and sexual harassment within each line Department.

The Civil Service is committed to protecting dignity and respect across all organisations.  The current policy for dealing with complaints of bullying or harassment is, as the Deputy has said, Dignity at Work, which was revised and published in 2015. The policy aims to promote respect, dignity, safety and equality in the workplace.  My Department developed the policy in conjunction with Civil Service management and the staff panel of unions. It is a matter that I and my Department take very seriously, and we go to great efforts to ensure that the policy is implemented and understood by both employees and management across the breadth of our Civil Service.

This policy provides a clear process for dealing with complaints about bullying and harassment in Civil Service organisations.  The policy also provides for the investigation of complaints. To ensure access to impartial and professional investigations of any allegations of bullying or harassment, my Department put in place an external workplace investigation services framework.  It provides a framework of companies that can be requested to investigate cases of bullying and harassment, workplace difficulties and disciplinary matters.

Under the auspices of my Department the Civil Service Employee Assistance Service is available to all civil servants. Although my Department does not currently hold figures for total numbers of bullying and sexual harassment complaints, the following data are available centrally. The numbers of investigations requested by Civil Service organisations under the external workplace investigation services framework in 2015, 2016 and 2017 were 15, 18 and 27, respectively. The numbers of mediations in the Civil Service carried out by the civil and public service mediation service in 2015, 2016 and 2017 were 37, 36 and 29, respectively.

I am concerned that the data are not held centrally. What unit in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is in charge of ensuring the dignity at work policies are implemented and made known in each Department? I tabled a parliamentary question to each Minister about the level of complaints within his or her respective Department, although my question to the Minister may have been worded differently. There have been 89 complaints since 2011, eight of which were upheld. During that period there were two complaints made in the Department of Health, 51 in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection and 18 in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. As Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, can the Minister stand over the consistency of implementation of the dignity at work policy in each Department and indicate who in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is driving this policy and ensuring it is being implemented across Departments such that, regardless of in what Department a civil servant is working, he knows that can stand over this process?

In my Department responsibility for this issue lies within the human resources section which works closely with the public service reform unit of my Department. On whether there is consistent implementation of the policy across the Civil Service, I am satisfied that it is applied. It is a matter I have reviewed with staff in my Department and we believe the policy is applied broadly and fairly, but we can never be complacent on this matter. The statistics I have given to the Deputy and the ones referenced by him should be viewed in the context of the many tens of thousands working in the Civil Service, although one case is one too many. We have to treat the issue with the seriousness it deserves. I am personally committed to ensuring that will happen, as I know my Department is, too. This is a very serious matter.

On the agencies or bodies within the remit of the Department of Public and Expenditure and Reform and each of the other Departments, has the Minister been made aware of any State agency or body in which the incidence of bullying or sexual harassment is higher than in other offices?

No part of the Civil Service or any semi-State body has been identified to me as having a higher incidence than the average figure or the norm. Any case that is proved does not reflect well on our work in ensuring there is dignity in the workplace. As I said, one case is one too many. My Department and I want to ensure anybody who comes to work in the Civil Service or elsewhere is treated with the dignity and respect he or she deserves. I am confident that this happens in the overwhelming majority of cases. Any example of where this policy is not applied should be and will be dealt with fairly and seriously. Anybody who comes to work for any part of the State deserves to be treated fairly and professionally and have his or her human dignity respected.

In the absence of Deputies Mattie McGrath and Joan Burton, we will move to Question No. 6.

Question No. 5 replied to with Written Answers.

Office of Public Works Projects

Brendan Smith

Question:

6. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the drainage projects to be undertaken by the Office of Public Works in County Cavan in 2018; the estimated cost of same; the drainage projects to be undertaken by Cavan County Council with financial assistance from the Office of Public Works; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2131/18]

Many parts of County Cavan are affected by severe flooding. Unfortunately, however, very little of the county is covered by the Arterial Drainage Act 1945. There is at times a huge burden on the county council to carry out flood relief and drainage works. Will the Minister of State ensure whatever proposals are put before the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform by Cavan County Council are given urgent and favourable consideration? Will he engage with the Minister of State with responsibility for local government on the need to allocate specific funding for local authorities to carry out essential drainage and flood relief works?

The Boyne, Inny and Glyde and Dee arterial drainage maintenance schemes are in operation in County Cavan. As part of the annual maintenance programmes, maintenance of approximately 78 km of river channel is scheduled to take place in County Cavan at an estimated cost of €460,000. I am delighted to tell the Deputy that the work will take place this year.

Local authorities are responsible for the ongoing maintenance of certain watercourses within the drainage districts in the county. For areas not covered by the arterial drainage maintenance programme, the OPW operates a minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme. It is open to all local authorities to submit a funding application under this scheme. Any application received is considered in accordance with the scheme's eligibility criteria that have recently been reviewed and having regard to the overall availability of resources for flood risk management. An application was recently received from Cavan County Council for structural flood defence works at Drummullan. The application is under consideration.

Towards the end of last year I announced a pilot scheme for channel cleaning for five local authorities. Following on from a review of the delivery of the pilot schemes, I hope to widen the scheme to other areas next year, including County Cavan.

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I have been actively involved with residents in the Drummullan area of County Cavan to which the Minister of State referred and know that Cavan County Council has been in regular contact with his officials in Trim. The residents appreciate the co-operation and the willingness of the Minister of State's officials to advance the particular project. Approximately €250,000 is required to carry out the necessary flood relief works in the area. As I an anxious that that necessary approval issue to the county council at the earliest possible date, I would very much appreciate it if the Minister of State would discuss the matter with his officials. There are other areas in respect of which the council will be making applications for financial assistance, including Ballyhaise and Drung. As these areas are flooded on a 12-month basis, land is lying fallow and often people are unable to get to their homes or farms. In a county such as Cavan in which there is little drainage of the river system under the Arterial Drainage Act 1945 there is a huge burden on the council. I would very much appreciate it, therefore, if the Minister of State would designate it as one of the pilot scheme areas for the channel remediation works to which he referred.

I appreciate from where the Deputy is coming on this issue. Cavan County Council works closely with the Department. Where we can expedite the process of delivering under the schemes, we will do so, particularly in the areas mentioned by the Deputy. As I said, the recently submitted application is under consideration and we will respond to the local authority in due course. The pilot scheme has been rolled out. Following a review of its delivery, I will come back to the Deputy on roll-out of the scheme nationally.

The Minister of State has accepted an invitation from me to visit County Cavan. I look forward to bringing him to some of the areas affected, where he will see at first-hand the terrible hardship being experienced by local communities, households and farmers. If he were to announce during the visit that he would include County Cavan in the pilot scheme, it would be most welcome. He will also see at first-hand the necessity for investment in the area.

We can no longer have so many homes flooded annually and farms people are not able to farm due to constant flooding on their holdings. Those issues need to be addressed. People want a clear, positive message that action will be taken and the necessary funding given to the council to carry out those essential works.

The Deputy is aware that I did a tour of Monaghan last week and looked at all the areas in question and I gladly take up his offer to visit Cavan. I had thought I would do it on the day but I did not get to it given the number of areas I had to see. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, had me touring the best part of the day. I must give great credit to the two local authorities because they are willing to look for finance and assistance to help the people and to work together with those mentioned by the Deputy in delivering for their future.

Brexit Issues

With the permission of the House, we will now take Question No. 4. Deputy Mattie McGrath was attending a meeting of the Business Committee.

Mattie McGrath

Question:

4. Deputy Mattie McGrath asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the core priorities of his Department with respect to the ongoing challenges presented by Brexit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2609/18]

My apologies. I was attending a meeting of the Business Committee. What are the Minister's priorities in respect of the ongoing Brexit debate? This issue is hugely worrying for many.

As the Deputy will be aware, the Government is adopting a whole of Government approach to the challenges posed by Brexit. Our objectives are to minimise the impact of Brexit on trade and the economy, to protect the Northern Ireland peace process, to maintain the common travel area and to influence the future direction of the European Union.

Brexit issues in my Department are co-ordinated by the Department’s Brexit-EU-North-South unit. This unit supports me in my work on Brexit, leads Brexit work across the Department and represents the Department on the various groups that co-ordinate the Government’s response.

The Government’s response to Brexit involves continuing to manage the economy and the public finances carefully, negotiating effectively as part of the EU 27 while at the same time supporting and ensuring a strong and well-functioning EU, continuing support for business and our economy, and exploring existing and potential EU measures that could assist Ireland in mitigating the effects of Brexit. In supporting these objectives, the best and most immediate policy under my own control is to manage our public finances carefully.

Additionally, in budget 2018 I announced a number of measures which continue the process of making Ireland Brexit-ready. These include a new Brexit loan scheme of up to €300 million for SMEs. I have already seen the advertising for such funds commence. The measures also include the establishment of a rainy day fund, additional capital expenditure of more than €4 billion over the next four years, increased funding in Departments such as the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and increased allocations in Departments such as the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation to allow them to respond to many of the challenges created by Brexit.

I congratulate the Government on the first round of the negotiations. They were very iffy and up and down and I acknowledge that they worked out reasonably well after a lot of careful and arduous work and a bit of blunt talking. Now, however, we are down to the next phase, which is very serious. I welcome the funds announced by the Minister and the advertising because we need to see them being advertised. I am not saying it should be loose money but we also need to see that there is not too much bureaucracy involved in accessing funds, especially for farmers that have a lot of exports to the UK, which is most farmers. Neither can it be too bureaucratic for SMEs that export. Every day since we came back and for two or three months before we went on break we have been in here talking about delayed farm payments due to computer glitches and other issues, which is not good enough. There is a lot of uncertainty and people need the supports to be as readily available as possible. They need to be forearmed and ready for whatever negative impacts may occur.

On the availability of funds, only last weekend I saw advertising from Enterprise Ireland encouraging SMEs to access the Agile Innovation fund. This fund is designed to support SMEs make the necessary changes to get ready for Brexit. I emphasise that the responsibility for making those changes sits first with those who run and own these companies. We will do as much as we can but I am concerned that the scale of the challenges approaching all of us as Brexit develops in whatever shape it may take has to be broadly understood by those involved in running small and medium-sized businesses. We have opened the fund to support them in their work and we will, as announced in the budget, put in place an additional fund which is aimed at Irish agriculture in particular. The Taoiseach addressed the IFA on Tuesday night to ensure its members of our understanding of their difficulties as well as the opportunities available, and our desire to support its members and Irish farming in responding to the grave challenges that could develop.

There are organisations other than the IFA which represent the agriculture sector and smaller farmers as well. The Minister referred to agility. Most small business people are very agile because they have to be. It is not easy to keep an SME running and to keep all the balls in the air. They, therefore, do not need that kind of a response. The money may be advertised - many schemes are advertised - but then there is the form filling, red tape and bureaucracy that has taken over our system. The Minister can roll his eyes up to heaven if he likes but those are the facts. Even for community organisations it is bucketloads and acre loads of paper. They just get weary and walk away from it. We need less of the red tape and we need the supports now.

I see the able Minister of State, Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran, is giving the Minister a bit of sound advice. He knows how to deal with it. He gets out on the ground and does it, and he does it every day of the week. We saw him all over the Christmas break looking after people. Make it easier for people to get access. Further, remember that Enterprise Ireland only supports companies that meet its threshold on the number of employees. I am talking about small SMEs with between one and ten employees, that is, those involving a person with perhaps his wife and family. Those are the people whom we need to support. Not everyone comes within the ambit of Enterprise Ireland which I think requires companies to have 200 or more employees.

I was just trying to maintain eye contact with the Deputy but I will look up at the sky in the future.

I missed that. I do not know what the Minister said.

In terms of the Deputy's observations, if we were not advertising the funding, he would accuse us of not doing anything and of not making potential customers aware of a fund we have set up. Therefore, we did that. On helping people access funds, Enterprise Ireland is trying to make it as simple and as clear as possible for people to access the funding. I am aware that there are organisations other than the IFA. For example, I met representatives from the ICMSA in the run-up to the budget and I know the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed, is working hard to try to ensure that we have the right funds and supports in place. Bord Bia published a report last week and I am greatly encouraged that we were able to point to another year in which Irish farmers and the agriculture sector have delivered improved sales to the UK and elsewhere of the exceptionally high-quality produce being produced.

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