Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Feb 2018

Vol. 964 No. 6

Topical Issue Debate

Gangland Killings

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Some 11 days ago, a 27 year old man was brutally murdered when he was lured to a place close to Cloverhill Prison. He was murdered because of his name and as part of an ongoing feud that has, for the last number of years, dominated certain parts of this city. Six days ago, there was another example of this feud and its damaging influence when gunshots were fired outside of the National Stadium on South Circular Road. Two men were injured. It was thought that one of the targets was a 40 year-old man. The Garda stated that this is part of the ongoing feud, the Kinahan-Hutch dispute that has now been going on for two and a half years. Then, two days ago, we saw another brutal murder. A man was brutally murdered on the North Strand simply because of his association, it appears, with the Hutch family. He too was only 27 years of age.

These murders are brutal and cowardly for very many reasons. First, they are brutal and cowardly because, as happened with the man who was murdered 11 days ago, people are lured to places against their will. They are brutal and cowardly because people attack victims from behind as they are getting into a car and shoot them in the head. They are brutal and cowardly because individuals are targeted because of their name, or because of their friendship with a particular family. Most of all, they are brutal and cowardly because of the damaging and traumatic influence and impact the violence is having on the community in the north inner city, a very proud community that wishes, like any other, to ensure that its children are brought up in a safe and peaceful environment.

Unfortunately, that has not happened. Over the last two and a half years or so, approximately 15 people have been murdered as a result of this feud. It is simply unacceptable and we, as legislators and as politicians in this House, have to re-emphasise consistently that it is unacceptable. I know there is no one, easy solution to this problem. I know it is ongoing criminal activity that can only be resolved through investment in local communities, resources on the ground and responses by the Legislature to issues that must be raised. They are the responsibility of different groups throughout society. However, one of the entities - in fact, the entity - that has the most power to effect that change and fight this criminal activity is the Government. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, is the Minister in this Government responsible for ensuring that the people of this city, the people of the north inner city, in particular, are kept safe.

I want to know what the Minister for Justice and Equality is going to do about of this. Something has to be done about it. I want to know if, since he has the power, the Minister proposes to bring forward changes to the law. I was particularly concerned when it was reported recently that the armed response unit and the special detective unit may have been subject to cutbacks. We need to ensure that the Garda presence in the north inner city, which has been very effective over the last two years or so, is maintained. We cannot just take our foot off the pedal in the hope that this problem will go away. It has not gone away. It is still there.

Of course, the Minister is the central authority in the State for matters pertaining to extradition. I know it is an operational matter for An Garda Síochána, but why is it, if individuals are masterminding these criminal acts from outside the State, that no steps are being taken to bring them to justice within this State?

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Charles Flanagan)

I wish to thank Deputy O'Callaghan for raising this issue of great seriousness in Dáil Éireann. As Minister for Justice and Equality, I will be addressing this issue from a criminal justice perspective, but of course it is important to note that the Government's focus on removing organised criminals' grip on areas is not confined to a criminal justice approach. A multiplicity of supports are involved across a range of Government Departments and agencies.

The fatal shooting that took place earlier this week in Dublin's North Strand is currently under active investigation by An Garda Síochána. The House will appreciate that the manner in which particular investigations are conducted is solely a matter for the Garda Commissioner and his management team. I have no role in such investigations. The shooting occurred within days of the brutal killing of Derek Hutch near Cloverhill Prison and the non-fatal shootings which took place outside the National Stadium on the South Circular Road on 26 January this year. I wish to assure the House that An Garda Síochána is also conducting a comprehensive investigation into both of these incidents. I wish it well with its endeavours and inquiries, and I join the gardaí in calling for anybody with any information to report that potential evidence to An Garda Síochána.

I want to be clear. This type of criminal behaviour has no place in a civilised society. It will not be tolerated by An Garda Síochána and this Government. An Garda Síochána has faced down this type of threat in the past and will do so again. I note that there has been some commentary this week to the effect that the State provides fewer resources to the policing of organised crime north of the River Liffey, or that little is done to stop gangland figures from killing each other. Such assertions are ill-informed and without foundation. In the first instance, the Garda has, in fact, prevented a huge amount of violence and crime in recent times. Successes of this kind go under the radar and are not reported on the news on a daily basis.

Furthermore, it is important to note that the Garda, supported by significant resources allocated to it by this Government, has made important progress in tackling the insidious threat of organised crime, particularly in the north Dublin inner city area. Operation Hybrid has been established to co-ordinate the response to violent crime in Dublin and address public concerns about community safety. It benefits from significant support by armed support units. As of 21 January, this response has resulted in 72 arrests, 13 charges in total, 34 firearms seized, 260 searches, 15,260 lines of inquiry conducted and more than 50,450 high-visibility checkpoints implemented with active support from the armed support units. A significant about of CCTV footage, mobile phone traffic and forensic evidence has also been examined.

In addition, the conviction earlier this week in the Special Criminal Court of Eamonn Cumberton for the murder of Michael Barr in the Sunset House pub in April 2016, and the convictions of two other men apprehended in possession of a large number of firearms, were feud-related. They came about as a result of concentrated efforts by An Garda Síochána to tackle the perpetrators involved in this ongoing feud. We have also seen reports of a series of very significant drug seizures by An Garda Síochána, as well as important seizures of significant banking information used to fuel the activities of organised criminals. These seizures have significantly hampered the ability of these gangs to operate.

An Garda Síochána will not allow these criminals to prevail. It will ensure that the perpetrators of these heinous crimes will be apprehended and brought to justice as quickly as possible. I can assure the Deputy and the House that these endeavours will continue to be fully supported by this Government.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I agree with the Minister that this is not simply a criminal justice issue, but it is predominantly a criminal justice issue. The Minister for Justice and Equality is the person within the Government who is responsible for criminal justice and for the resourcing of An Garda Síochána. With respect to the Minister, it is not sufficient for him to simply state that he wishes the Garda well in these endeavours. The Garda needs more than to be wished well by Government. It needs to be given full and adequate resources to ensure that this vicious feud can be stopped, so that the people of the north inner city can be protected. If, as the Minister said, the following is incorrect, I would like to see his statistics on the matter but it was reported that armed patrol units in the north inner city have been cut by 30% and that the covert backup by the special detective unit has also been cut. If that is so, it needs to be reversed.

This is not the time to cut back on Garda resources just as the feud appears to be reigniting. Everyone in the House has a responsibility which the Minister has recognised to ensure the people of the north inner city will not be treated as second-class citizens when it comes to their protection. They are being exposed to a vicious, violent feud that is having a traumatic effect on families and young people in the vicinity. We have a responsibility to ensure we face up to it and the best way to do that is to ensure the Garda has the resources it needs. I ask the Minister to meet assistant Garda commissioner Leahy to ensure he is properly informed on whether adequate resources are being provided for the force. Why are extradition requests not being submitted to European countries in respect of gangland criminals against whom there is sufficient evidence that they are responsible for instructing others to kill people on the streets of this city?

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I meet the Garda Commissioner and senior Garda officers on a regular basis and will do so again in the near future. Garda operations in Dublin's north inner city are underpinned by increased resources made available to the force by the Government. In budget 2018 approximately €100 million has been allocated for Garda overtime to support ongoing operations such as Operation Hybrid. In 2016, at the request of the Garda Commissioner, funding was approved by the previous Government for the setting up of a dedicated armed support unit in the Dublin metropolitan region. It is now operational on a 24/7 basis.

The allocation and management of Garda resources, including the overtime budget, as the Deputy will be aware, are the responsibility of the Garda Commissioner, having due regard to operational needs. I have no role in that regard. It is a matter for Garda management to utilise the resources made available to it by the Government in the most efficient and effective manner, while also ensuring high-visibility policing in communities to tackle the scourge of gangland crime head on. Gardaí are active on the international stage through Interpol and Europol and on a bilateral basis with other European states. Action is well under way to ensure that if there is sufficient evidence, those responsible will be brought before the courts. The Government has enacted legislation to target criminal activities further, including the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2016 which provides additional powers for the Garda, in particular to immediately seizure assets suspected of being the proceeds of crime to prevent them from being disposed of.

While the allocation of Garda personnel is a matter for the Garda Commissioner, I am advised that since January 2017, a number of new and additional gardaí have been assigned to Store Street, Mountjoy and Bridewell Garda stations. Furthermore, work is progressing towards the reopening of Fitzgibbon Street Garda station, with funding for the project having been made available in the mid-term capital review. A dedicated community policing office is also based in Store Street Garda station for the north central division to ensure the issues highlighted by the local community and stakeholders will be dealt with in an effective manner.

All of the endeavours we have discussed will continue to be supported fully by me and my Government colleagues. This type of crime will not be tolerated. We will continue to stand with the people of the north inner city.

Hospital Staff

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

St. Finbarr's Hospital on the south side of Cork city was told in June last year that the agency staff it employed were being let go. As a result, the remaining staff were left to work in extreme conditions. With their union, they have been trying to secure adequate staffing levels to ensure patient safety. Conditions got so bad that on 2 January, they were due to work to rule. At the last minute, however, the HSE decided to reintroduce 14 agency staff for a period of one month. That time is up and the HSE has informed staff that 16 nursing and five home care assistant posts will be lost. What steps are being taken by the Government to ensure that will not happen?

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

As Deputy Jonathan O'Brien outlined, the hospital plays a crucial role in providing health services for people in the city and surrounding areas. It provides rehabilitation and step-down facilities for patients from Cork University Hospital and the Mercy Hospital, which frees up a substantial number of acute beds. The hospital has a number of vitally important rehabilitation wards. In recent months it has come under severe pressure. As Deputy Jonathan O'Brien outlined, the last minute reintroduction of agency staff in early January is coming to an end and it appears that 16 nursing and five home care assistant posts will be cut. This will result in additional pressure being put on a hospital that is already under significant pressure. The medical staff, particularly the nurses, are not only concerned about their working conditions but also about the effects on services and patient health. This is happening at a time when we should be investing in health services, not cutting back. It is wrong that there is any prospect of cutbacks at St. Finbarr's Hospital

Deputy Pat Buckley

It is ironic that we are discussing the issue of staffing while representatives of the Psychiatric Nurses Association and the Irish Medical Organisation are appearing before the Joint Committee on the Future of Mental Health Care to discuss the challenges in staff recruitment. As my colleagues outlined, cutting staff and creating a toxic environment in any hospital, never mind St. Finbarr's Hospital in Cork, is criminal. On top of this, we have heard the magic word "review". A review is a money saving initiative on the part of the HSE. One of the staff said, "We are just hanging in there." If that is what passes for a job, the HSE and the Government have a lot to answer for. I appeal to the Minister of State to treat the staff with respect. They do a wonderful job and should be respected. Given what they do, all nurses should be sent a "Thank You" card and beatified when they finish work. It is not a job but a vocation. I ask the Minister of State to address this issue in a humane way, not with statistics or a review.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly. I thank the three Deputies for raising it and expressing their concerns.

The overarching policy of the Government is to support older people to live in dignity and with independence in their own homes and communities for as long as possible. This is clearly what they and everybody in this House want. We also have patients who are in genuine need of residential care, either on a long-stay or short-stay basis. The HSE is responsible for the delivery of health and personal social services, including those at facilities such as St Finbarr's Hospital. The hospital is part of the older persons social care directorate and one of 24 hospitals in the Cork Kerry Community Hospitals Group.

The HSE has worked with the Irish Nursing and Midwives Organisation in recent months on staffing levels and ratios at the hospital. HSE management has undertaken a review of staffing in consultation with the nursing unions, with a view to ensuring safe and adequate staffing levels and a skills mix to meet the care needs of the residents in long-term care and the rehabilitation wards. It included a review of resource management, the skills mix and service costs. The executive proposes to reconfigure the staffing levels and skills mix at the hospital to provide for optimum use of approved staffing resources and a reduction in the over-reliance on overtime and agency costs. The current proposal, if implemented, will potentially provide for a reduction of 16.5 nursing whole-time equivalents and 5.1 health care assistant whole-time equivalents. This will eliminate the reliance on the use of agency staff and maximise overall direct employment within the hospital.

The HSE has assured the Department that there are no plans to reduce the number of directly employed staff at the hospital and certainly there are no plans for redundancies. The Department understands the executive has demonstrated that staffing levels in terms of WTEs have increased in the past few years and that HSE management is satisfied that the reconfigured staffing levels will be adequate to provide the service being delivered.

The engagement between management, staff, the INMO and SIPTU is underpinned by the terms of the national public service stability agreement. Agreement was not reached locally and notification was issued for the commencement of industrial action. The matter progressed to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, conciliation services and the parties met in December 2017. Following subsequent correspondence and discussions, an interim arrangement was put in place without prejudice to either party’s position and this has provided for the deferral of any industrial action, with the agreement to engage on the change programme as soon as possible. This was in place until yesterday, 31 January.

A conciliation conference has been organised by the WRC for 8 February 2018. Management has agreed to an extension of the interim arrangements up to and including the date of the WRC conciliation conference and to not later than Thursday, 15 February which will allow a reasonable period for the parties to consider any proposal emerging from the WRC process. This issue is being addressed by the HSE and key stakeholders through an agreed process, and officials from the Department will continue to monitor this situation carefully. The HSE has been asked to keep the Minister of State, Deputy Daly, updated on developments.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

With all due respect, what the Minister of State has just said does not make any sense. She is saying that a review of staffing has been undertaken in consultation with the nursing unions with a view to ensuring safe and adequate staffing levels within the hospital. Anyone reading that would presume that there may not be safe and adequate staffing levels at present and therefore we should be looking at increasing them. However, the reconfiguration of staffing levels to ensure that there is a safe level of staff within the hospitals entails cutting 21 whole-time equivalent posts. That makes no sense. I am glad that the interim period is being extended until the issue comes before the WRC, but staff are telling us that the conditions are unsafe and the Minister of State's answer is not to employ more staff but to cut 21 posts. It is ridiculous.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The Minister of State referred to consultation. It seems extraordinary that the Department is asserting that there was consultation with the unions on staffing figures and yet the situation has proceeded to a work to rule and now to the Workplace Relations Commission. That does not sound like an ordinary process. It certainly does not seem that any points which may have been made by the unions in consultation were taken into account. The Minister of State referred to agency staff and said that there is no threat to permanent staff, but it is clear that the global figure, inclusive of agency and permanent staff, will be reduced and nothing the Minister of State has said indicates the contrary. On the basis of current proposals there will a reduction of 16 nursing staff and five home care assistants. The Minister of State is saying that no permanent staff will be got rid of but the hospital will still be down staff. That will put pressure on the permanent staff and will lead to a reduction in services. The HSE and the Department need to back away from what is very clearly a cutback which will compromise safety and health care and will continue to put nurses, who are already in a precarious position, under extreme pressure.

Deputy Pat Buckley

Towards the end of her reply the Minister of State said, "This issue is being addressed by the HSE". We see the words "issue" and "review". I do not believe a bit of it. This has been festering for months. Were it not for the bravery of the staff within St. Finbarr's Hospital in speaking out on this issue, it would not even have come to the fore. The way staff are being treated is disgusting. It beggars belief that we will not invest in our elderly people. I have nothing against the agency staff, but we need to maintain a proper level of staff within our hospitals and give them a sense of purpose and belonging. I hear that the issue is being addressed by the HSE but it has failed so many times that it is frightening. I spoke to the INMO a while back and I was told that the HSE is spending €2 million a week on agency staff. I do not understand why we cannot retain our own staff, who are experienced and believe in what they do, within the system. I ask the Minister of State to go back and get a proper black and white statement so that we can go back to the staff in St. Finbarr's and tell them that their jobs are secure and that they are doing a great job.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I will go back on some of the original script which I was given. It is very clear from the script that a conference has been organised at the WRC for 8 February and that management has agreed to an extension of the interim arrangements up to and including the date of the WRC conciliation conference and to not later than Thursday, 5 February. This will allow a reasonable period for the parties to consider any proposals which emerge from the WRC.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

It should not have to go that far.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I am not the relevant Minister. I am just here on behalf of the Minister of State. I might finish by referring to the written statement which has been given to me. The HSE remains committed to ensuring an effective and efficient information and consultation process with the staff and the trade unions on the proposed change programme. Management is satisfied that the proposed staffing levels and skill mix will be provided for the enhancement of nursing duties. Management has confidence in the unions and staff and that the change programme proposed will uphold the equality and safety of the service provided by St. Finbarr's Hospital. All I can give Deputies is the information I have in front of me.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I appreciate that.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I will bring the Deputies' concerns back to the Minister of State, as I do with most Topical Issue matters. Regardless of whether the Deputies wish to pursue it themselves, I will certainly pursue on their behalf the issue they have raised. I have been given a script and I do not want to defer from it because this is not my area. I will relay the Deputies' message to the Minister of State but, in reading the script, it is very clear that the management, staff and trade unions are in a position to look at the proposed change programme and that will happen in February.

Children and Family Services Provision

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I thank the Cathaoirleach. We have two minutes each, do we?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I want to bring to the attention of the Minister the closure of Time 4 Us in Galway.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Má theasatíonn ón Teachta trí nóiméad a thógáil, tabharfaidh mé nóiméad di.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Deputy has suggested three minutes and one minute.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Gabh mo leithscéal?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Two and two is the normal procedure.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Two and two?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If the Deputy would like three minutes I will take one.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Okay.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

An bhfuil cead agam nóiméad amháin a thógáil?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Ceann Comhairle would have to have given prior approval for that. I am sorry. I do not have any latitude in that regard. If it had been discussed with the Ceann Comhairle prior to this, it would have been possible. The Deputy can register her interest, but that is all I can allow.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

If the Deputies were agreeable to it, would I be allowed come in for a minute?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

No. I cannot allow it. I must do my job too.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Will the clocks be reset to three minutes and one?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Deputy may proceed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Can we start the clocks again?

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I know that the Minister is aware of this issue as I tabled a parliamentary question on it. The Minister came back promptly with factual information on the numbers attending and so on. I appreciate that. However, my question was whether she had been made aware of the issue and what alternative steps she will take. The reason I asked that question is that we have received very urgent representations, primarily from the most important people, namely, the parents of the children who will be affected. That is more than 40 families. Unusually for them, people from the legal profession - solicitors and barristers - have got together to say that this is an essential service. They are publicly on the record as saying that this service must be kept. Therapists and various other professionals who use the service have also made representations to us in respect of this service.

This service was set up in 2007. It has been there for more than ten years. It has had two positive evaluations, one in 2008 and one in 2016. Both pointed to the essential nature of the service and to the positive effect on children. I do not have much time to speak on this but I will bring the Minister's attention to the conclusions of the 2016 report, where figures are given. It says that the service enhances the positive relationships between parents and children and so on.

They cannot do without this service. If it is closed, 40 or more families will be affected. Primarily, children will not see their fathers. It is run on a shoestring budget of approximately €80,000 per year and has four staff, one of whom is full-time.

We have spoken to the directors. The only difficulty seems to relate to the governance structure and providing cover at the weekend. Problems seldom arise at the weekend. The house costs nothing because it is in Tusla's ownership. It will remain open and has ample space for the other services provided therein. A number of Deputies met the directors last week.

People with legal and psychological care backgrounds are happy to serve on the board, but they have never been contacted. Last Monday, the directors confirmed to us that it was an essential service and they wanted it kept open at all costs.

To repeat myself, it is run on a shoestring budget and there have been no problems on the ground. The problem with the governance structure is not insurmountable.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I compliment Deputy Connolly on the work she has done. Deputy Naughton has also done work on this issue. I support what has been said. It is important to recognise that all the Galway Deputies are concerned.

Governance becomes an issue when trying to get people involved in boards because they are afraid of the responsibilities. It is fine when there is a large professional staff, but it would be a tragedy if important services were lost because people felt that there was too much governance and not enough backup to support it. Money is useful because if a board has money it can buy expertise.

This is a vital service and it should be supported. We must decide that, where services are concerned, structures can never be more important than the reality on the ground. Sometimes, important services cannot fit inside structures, but that is not a justification for not having the services.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

If I may, I will briefly speak in support of my colleagues. This is a critical service in Galway. Many of its referrals come from the courts, solicitors and psychologists in the region. It would be a productive outcome of our discussions if the Minister agreed to meet us in an attempt to find a solution and keep this important facility open.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

I am sorry to cut the Deputy short but, unless the Ceann Comhairle allowed her contribution prior to this engagement, I cannot allow it.

Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Katherine Zappone)

I thank Deputies Connolly and Ó Cuív, supported by Deputy Naughton and other Galway Deputies, for their queries. I welcome the opportunity to clarify the circumstances surrounding Time 4 Us and the wider picture of child contact centres. We all agree that the long-term goal is a quality service delivered to all children in all areas. However, it is important to ensure that any service delivered to children and families is of a high quality. Services must be appropriate to local needs and sustainable.

Child contact centres are safe, friendly and neutral places where children can spend time with the parent or parents with whom they do not live. The centre provides a child-centred environment that allows the child to continue a relationship with the parent at the child's pace and in his or her own way, usually through play and child-centred activities.

Services of this nature are used by children and families in a wide range of circumstances, some of which can be difficult or contentious. These centres may also cater to children whose parents are separated and cannot agree contact arrangements. Children in the care of Tusla, who need support to have access with their families, also use the service. I paid attention to Deputy Connolly outlining aspects of that in this case.

Time 4 Us was established in 2007. The service's purpose is to provide parents who do not live with their children with a facility where they can spend time together. A total of 41 families are currently using the service, 36 of which were referred by the courts or private family law services. I appreciate that Deputy Ó Cuív's concerns relate to the funding of this service, but I will draw his attention to the additional reasons given by the board of directors for closing the service. These include significant challenges in terms of board membership and sustainable governance, which Deputy Connolly mentioned. Several members of the board wish to retire in the coming years and the board has struggled to find suitable replacements. It has also struggled to provide staff for weekend cover, which is a time of high demand.

Time 4 Us operates an on-call rota at the weekend to provide support to the staff in the centres. It previously received funding from the Departments of Employment Affairs and Social Protection and Justice and Equality as well as from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, SVP. In 2016, the service's main funding came from grants from Tusla and the Galway City & County Childcare Committee, with the remainder coming from the SVP. However, the funding from the SVP has now ceased.

A decision has been made by the board of directors to cease the service on 31 March. Tusla will work with the board to identify alternative supports that current service users can avail of in the local area. It is important to ensure that the services provided for access and contact are safe, of the highest quality and sustainable.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I must reluctantly say that the Minister's answer was disappointing. It has been brought to her attention that this is an essential service. We cannot do without it. Indeed, it should be rolled out nationally. Of the reasons given, finance was not one. It is run on a shoestring budget. Staffing was not mentioned as a problem. Four staff run it. There were no difficulties at the weekend. The primary difficulty related to the governance structure, that is, covering the weekend.

Any number of people with adequate legal and psychological skills as well as other skills would serve on the board. That is not a difficulty. Rather, the problem is with the governance structure. Only three directors are necessary. Some want to retire, with which I do not have a difficulty. They have done a good job. The Minister is standing over the closure of this service because of a small problem with a governance structure. Tusla has to step in and recognise that it must provide active support at the weekend. Rarely does a problem arise. We asked about all of this. Will the Minister re-examine the matter and revert to us?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I support Deputy Connolly's comments. In a situation like this, the way forward is for people to meet face to face. It seems to be going out of fashion in many facets of our lives. I suggest that the people with responsibility for ensuring these types of service sit down, go through the issues and devise a solution. Governance has rightly grown more onerous, but we must ensure that it does not become a barrier to the provision of services. The assistance that is needed to provide that governance should be given. The only way for this situation to be resolved is through face-to-face discussions around a table with the appropriate authorities.

Money is an issue, given that the SVP withdrew its funding. Where there is enough funding, one can buy any governance expertise that is required.

Deputy Katherine Zappone

My information is that the board of Time 4 Us made a decision to cease the service from 31 March, that issues of governance and board membership were key aspects of that decision and that there were concerns about staff in terms of weekend service provision. That said, I hear what the Deputies are saying. In particular, Deputy Connolly referred to how there were barristers and psychologists who were willing to serve on the board. That there were two positive reviews of the service is helpful information for me.

As the Deputies can imagine, I am concerned about how family breakdowns are stressful for children. Anything that can be done to assist them and their families in that context should have our support. The question is how to do that.

Deputy Connolly asked whether we could re-examine the matter. Deputies Naughton and Ó Cuív suggested a face-to-face meeting. I will commit to calling to arrange a meeting with members of the board - I will also ask Tusla to join us - in order to re-examine the situation and discuss the Deputies' points. I will revert to the Deputies subsequently.

Schools Property

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

As the Minister knows, the board, students, parents and teachers of Clonkeen College were shocked and dismayed to discover last May that the Christian Brothers intended to sell their school playing pitches to property developers, despite previous promises from the Christian Brothers that the fields would be given to the school in perpetuity as long as it continued to exist. Some €450,000 has been spent on draining the pitches and €260,000 was spent on fencing, including €120,000 of which was public money.

They are now even more shocked to discover that in response to their campaign, which involved appealing to the Minister and Christian Brothers not to do this to the school and steal their facilities from the the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, ERST, has now, in an act of purely vindictive retaliation against the campaigning of the school, threatened to dissolve the voluntary board of Clonkeen College. It is an absolutely extraordinary act of bullying by ERST against the school. The voluntary board is doing nothing more than trying to protect the interests of the school and its students. It is ERST which, incredibly, has claimed that the board is acting against the interests of the school when it is ERST which is acting against the interest of the school by threatening to take away the playing pitches and dissolve the school board.

As the Minister knows, the request to dissolve the board has to be approved by him. To put it bluntly, this is a moment of truth for the Government in terms of deciding which side it is on. I and the Minister know that the school is asking him to back the board and school and dismiss out-of-hand the outrageous suggestion that the board be dissolved by ERST. As the Minister knows, the members of the board have been forced to take very costly legal action to try to protect the pitches. The case will be heard in the High Court in March. They ask that not only the Minister reject the proposal to dissolve the board but that he back the board in its legal action against the congregation to protect the pitches for the school's students.

Not only is this important for the 500 students of the school and future generations of students, it will also affect students in the moderate to general learning disability facility. It was built recently and will be directly and very negatively impacted by the development proposal and plan to sell the pitches. St. John of God services in the area said that it was dismayed to hear about the planned sale of the sports fields and the negative impact this would surely have on students with disabilities. It went on to say that the change would have a dramatic negative impact on their environment as noise and other distractions would wreak havoc with their learning and greatly impede the teachers' ability to connect and teach. It implored the Minister to support the school and board. I ask that the Minister do that, and indicate that he will not agree to dissolve the board and instead support the school.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor)

I am a neighbour of Clonkeen College. My home is a few hundred metres away. My neighbours' children are pupils in the school. Many former pupils of mine have been educated there. Clonkeen College is an outstanding school with an excellent reputation and offers a comprehensive and holistic education to all its students, including a wide range of sports such as football.

I also want to draw attention to the special needs unit in the school. It serves children and allows them to access a special education which I understand needs to be delivered in a caring and special environment. I supported the special needs unit during my time as principal of The Harold School and have visited it. I have seen at first hand the great work which is carried out within the special needs unit. I know from first-hand experience how well the school has been managed and its competent board of management.

The Department and taxpayer, as is well known, havwe invested over €10 million in its development and enhancement in recent years. I want to put on the record of the House that I have worked tirelessly since last summer to facilitate a resolution to this issue. I arranged a meeting between the Minister for Education and Skills, the principal, members of staff, board and Department to which I invited Deputy Boyd Barrett and other elected representatives. I subsequently met the school principal, board of management and individual parents, pupils and stakeholders on numerous occasions. I have communicated with stakeholders and the school principal, often on a biweekly basis and, in some cases, on a weekly basis.

I understand the statutory responsibilities of the Minister for Education and Skills in this process. However, as an elected Member for Dún Laoghaire and a former school principal in the area who spent 31 years of my career educating children, I still believe that talks between both sides is the best route forward. As a local Deputy, I am available to do whatever I can to bring both sides back to the table.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Richard Bruton)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I am very much aware of the concern of the Deputy which has been expressed on a number of occasions in the House. As the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, said, I met parents and the board of the school. Genuine efforts have been made to resolve differences, but they have not been fruitful to date.

The position has changed to an extent, in that two things have occurred. I understand the board of management has taken a legal case in respect of the sale of the land and that case is due to be heard in the High Court in March. Clearly, it would be inappropriate for me to speculate about the outcome of that matter which is before the court.

Separately, I have been informed by my Department officials that the patron of Clonkeen College, ERST, has now sought approval to dissolve the board of management of the college in accordance with section 16 of the Education Act 1998. I understand that request is connected to the legal case taken by the board of management regarding the sale of the land. However, the statutory process of dissolution is under way and, as Minister for Education and Skills, I must take a decision having considered the submissions made on all sides.

I have a statutory duty to consider the request in accordance with the provisions of that Act and it would be inappropriate for me to comment on matters which are related to the dissolution. To make such a comment would be to prejudge a statutory function which I, as Minister, must now discharge, having received the best legal advice. I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and giving me the opportunity to outline the position as it now stands.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Expressions of concern about this are not enough. We have an extraordinary situation which could have been resolved if the Minister told the Christian Brothers that he is not taking the pitches to pay off the redress scheme because that is punishing future generations of kids for the crimes of the Christian Brothers against past generations of kids. The Minister should have done that at the beginning.

This also raises the extraordinary situation whereby schools which are publicly funded are run by patron bodies which, it seems, are accountable to nobody. They are not accountable to the Government which funds them.

It is absolutely ridiculous. Now ERST, which is supposed to be protecting the interests of the school, is threatening to dissolve a school board which has been exemplary. There should be no question of its being dissolved as its members have defended the interests of the school and its playing pitches. The board should be commended and the Minister should get behind it, by telling the Christian Brothers and ERST where to get off. In what sense is ERST acting in the interests of the school? It is demanding to sell lands for €18 million to pay a debt which is only €9 million so where is the rest of the money going? Is there a conflict of interest here? What are ERST and the brothers going to do with the rest of the money?

The Minister needs to get off the fence and tell the Christian Brothers there is no way we will dissolve a board which has done fantastic work to defend the school. He also needs to step in to resolve this in a way that secures the pitches for the school for the future.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The Education Act outlines the powers I have as Minister, as well as the powers I do not have. Many powers which the Deputy wishes I had are powers which I do not have. However, I have one very important power under section 16 of the Act, where I have to adjudicate on a proposal by a patron to dissolve a board. I will do this in a way that is fair to all sides. I will not comment on anyone's interests or motivations as I have to evaluate those fairly, hearing all sides. That is the way I am going to approach this.