Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2018

Vol. 966 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Since last Sunday, we have been warned about a very severe weather event which will reach its peak over the coming days. I commend the front-line services on their work to date. In particular, I commend Seán Hogan and his team on the national co-ordination efforts. I also pay tribute to Met Éireann for the precision of its work. I thank the media for broadcasting the guidance to people throughout the country. I would like to refer to some aspects of this weather event. At moments like this, we have to be particularly conscious of older people and families in poverty. Yesterday, the Taoiseach was dismissive of calls to double the free fuel allowance for this week. He said he could not "offer a blank cheque". I am glad the Government has undertaken a U-turn on this issue. The Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection has announced that the allowance will be doubled. It is worrying that the issue was not anticipated earlier in the week. We know that on occasions like this, cold weather and deep freezes can affect the elderly most of all.

I ask the Government to consider advancing additional financial supports to non-governmental organisations that are dealing with the homeless and with families in poverty. In a week the latest figures from the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government show that more than 9,000 people, including 3,267 children, are homeless, which is a record number, it is incumbent on the Government to support organisations like the Peter McVerry Trust, the Simon Community and Focus Ireland that are working on the streets to bring the homeless in. Heroic efforts are being made. I have just listened to Pat Doyle of the Peter McVerry Trust saying that 81 homeless people were taken into a sports hall on the south side of Dublin yesterday to give them shelter on a very cold evening. Additional supports should be given to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other organisations to keep an eye out for families who are in particular poverty and need for various reasons and will require support.

I am surprised that decisions regarding school closures are being left to boards of management at local level. I think there was similar indecision in relation to schools in advance of Storm Ophelia. I mean it constructively when I say I think schools should close automatically when red alert warnings are issued. It was confirmed this morning that school transport will not be operational in red alert areas. That should mean de facto that schools should close. If that happened, we would reduce the risk of accidents and traffic congestion. Above all, it would represent an optimal approach to the safety of schoolchildren. I ask the Taoiseach to consider doing that now. With regard to public transport, will he give us strong reassurances that local councils have the equipment and the wherewithal to keep the main arteries open and to keep cities going and operational? Although this is a matter for another day, it is worth reflecting that the entire country is coming to a halt, despite all the warnings, after one evening's snow so far. We need to learn from other countries that experience far worse events than this.

The Taoiseach

The national emergency co-ordination group is meeting as we speak. I cannot be there because I am here. The Government is represented at the meeting by the Minister-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

There is a better chance it will be okay, so.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

The Taoiseach

I was interrupted within 20 seconds that time. The interruptions are starting even quicker as the days go on. The Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and the Minister of State, Deputy English, are representing the Government at the meeting of the national emergency co-ordination group which is taking place at present. Further guidance on all of these matters will be given at the press conference which will follow that meeting. Clear advice will be given on school closures.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

That did not happen today.

The Taoiseach

School transport has been suspended today for safety reasons in the areas covered by the red alert. School transport is not the main way people get to school in many parts of the country, where pupils are more likely to get to school by car or by walking. I have asked the national emergency co-ordination group to provide a clear instruction on what schools should do tomorrow and on Friday and it will do so at the press conference after its meeting.

I would like to respond to Deputy Martin's earlier comments on fuel allowance. Two distinct suggestions were made yesterday. First, it was suggested that we should instruct older people and others to run their heating 24 hours a day and that the Government should pick up the bill no matter what.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

No, that was not suggested.

The Taoiseach

I said that I would not offer a blank cheque in such circumstances and I did not do so. Second, some of the Members opposite were among those who made the constructive suggestion that we should pay a double week of the fuel allowance. I did not dismiss that. The record of the Dáil will show that I said I would endeavour to speak about the matter to the Ministers for Employment Affairs and Social Protection and Public Expenditure and Reform. This was the appropriate thing to do and we spoke about it across yesterday.

We confirmed with the Department that it was possible to pay a double week and we confirmed this morning that a double week is being paid for this week. In many cases, the payment will not be made until next week but a double week of €45 is being paid. This should give about 300,000 households some assurance that they can keep the heating going during this period.

In addition, urgent needs payments may be available on a non-means tested basis. Also, the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, is in touch with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, with a view to giving it additional supports to assist families who are in fuel poverty. As Deputy Micheál Martin correctly stated, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul often knows the families who are vulnerable or in fuel poverty and works with them already. Additional resources will be available for the society in that regard.

I acknowledge the Trojan and extraordinary efforts our homeless services made during the night, including people working for the Department, Dublin City Council, non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and charities. Food, shelter and heat are available for everyone who needs it. Teams were on the streets last night encouraging people to come in off the streets and I am told only about a dozen people did not do so and everyone else came in and was given food, heat and shelter. The Government is working with and funding NGOs, including Depaul and the Peter McVerry Trust to provide these services.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Micheál Martin has one minute to ask a supplementary question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I make my remarks on schools constructively and on the basis that the Fianna Fáil Party spokesperson, Deputy Thomas Byrne, spoke to the Minister for Education and Skills before Storm Ophelia urging that schools be closed in red alert areas. School boards of management cannot be summoned in the middle of the night or at 6 a.m., as a principal said today. The Government is leaving the decision on whether to close schools up to individual principals. In my view, this is not the optimal way to protect schoolchildren and prevent traffic congestion. We all know how long it took to get to work in Dublin this morning. There are schools at which only 100 pupils turning up and many have less than full numbers. This is a serious issue. When a code red alert warning is issued surely it should automatically dictate the closure of schools. That would be the uniformly correct thing to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will not comment on the Taoiseach's obsession with what he said about all of that yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not comment on anything because his minute is up.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I would like the Government to examine the issue of schools, even for the future. Second, on public transport and roads-----

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----will the Taoiseach indicate whether local authorities will be properly resourced in respect of those issues? Will they have the equipment to keep the main arteries open?

The Taoiseach

The way the warning system works is that warnings are issued by Met Éireann. Status yellow means people should be aware, status orange means they should be prepared and status red means they should act. It is not as simple as just saying red automatically means school closure because one could have a red alert arising from a chemical spill at an industrial facility, which would have no impact on schools.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We are speaking about weather events.

The Taoiseach

The decision on whether schools close is either made by boards of management on an individual basis or on the advice and instruction of the national emergency co-ordination group. The group is meeting now and the Department of Education and Skills is represented at that meeting. It will issue clear guidance to schools with regard to tomorrow and Friday at its press conference after the meeting. The appropriate way to deal with the issue is for the national emergency co-ordination group, which represents all the relevant Departments and agencies, to discuss the matter, make a decision and announce its decision. It is not something that I should announce unilaterally.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The European Union has this afternoon published the draft of its Brexit withdrawal agreement. We have only had sight of the text in the past 45 minutes and we will have to study the precise detail in the coming hours. However, having scanned the draft document, I welcome that the European Union now explicitly accepts that special arrangements are required for the North. As the Taoiseach knows, since the Brexit referendum, Sinn Féin has argued consistently and vigorously for the North to be designated special status within the European Union. We stated this was the only way to avoid the imposition of a hard border on this island and ensure the all-island economy and peace agreements are protected. Special status means the North remaining inside the customs union and Single Market. We now have a draft text that recognises that the North must stay in the customs union and I welcome that recognition. I also voice concern at any prospect of the North exiting the Single Market and concerns remain for east-west trade and commerce.

As the Taoiseach knows, the British Government and Brexiteers engaged in their Brexit debate with zero regard for the impact on Ireland. They showed no concern for our economy, the rights of our people or the peace process. They now want to conclude their debate and make their exit by putting the Good Friday Agreement through the shredder. The Tory-DUP axis is satisfied to treat the welfare of the people of this island as collateral damage so long as it can achieve a little Englander Brexit. Its arrogance is best highlighted by the rejection of the vote of the people of the North to remain in the European Union and crystallised most recently in the juvenile and dangerous commentary of the British Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson.

The DUP has explicitly hitched itself to the Tory wagon. It has put narrow political interests ahead of the good of the people of the North from all communities, our economic well-being and the political process. The position of the Tory-DUP Brexiteers is that they want Brexit at any cost. However, they will not foot the bill. Rather, it will be the ordinary people of this island, North and South, who foot the bill and that cannot be allowed to happen. The Tory-DUP wrecking agenda cannot prevail. As Head of Government, it is the Taoiseach's job to ensure this does not happen. There is no doubt in my mind that the British Government will attempt to undermine the text of the draft agreement in the time ahead. In the context of the DUP's collapsing of the talks in the North, I asked that the Taoiseach convene the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. Today's development adds weight to the need for this to be done. Will the Taoiseach convene the intergovernmental conference?

The Taoiseach

The intergovernmental conference can be convened only at a date that is agreed by both the British and Irish Governments and such a date has not yet been agreed. That is not to say that we are not in regular contact, however. I have spoken twice on the telephone to Prime Minister May in the past ten days and we have also met in person.

I recognise the constructive and measured approach taken by the Deputy's party to the Brexit issue in recent months. What we have seen today is the publication of the draft withdrawal agreement by the European Commission. The first thing the Government sought at the time of the Brexit referendum was a commitment from the UK Government that there would be no hard border and that eventuality would be avoided. We got such a verbal commitment some time ago under the leadership of my forebear, Deputy Enda Kenny. In December, we sought to have this commitment turned into a commitment in a political agreement and it was written down in black and white in the December text. Most reasonable people will now accept, even though others said otherwise, that it was not over-hyped or oversold. People will see the reality of that today in a legal text, a protocol to the draft withdrawal agreement, that sets out exactly in black and white how we can avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and how we can enforce that legally. That has been done and the text has been published today. A briefing will be available later today for Opposition leaders and spokespersons if they wish to have one.

It is not the case that this is the only option. This is the backstop and last resort, as Prime Minister May describes it. There are alternative solutions. The alternative solution is option A, which is our preferred option and the preferred option of the British Government, that involves us avoiding not just a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland but also a hard border between Britain and Ireland. I do not want a border between Letterkenny and Derry any more than I want a border between Larne and Stranraer or Liverpool and Dublin. We want people and trade to be able to move freely. Option A is still an option. It is now incumbent on the United Kingdom Government, in particular, to put forward detailed proposals on how it can be achieved or put forward the detail of option B.

The Deputy is correct that hard line Brexiteers and some politicians in Northern Ireland will say "No" and will be angry at what they see today but just saying "No" and being angry is not enough. If people do not like what they see today, it is incumbent on them to come up with alternative solutions and to flesh out option A and option B, write it down in a legal form that can be enforced and then we can negotiate on that. We have between now and October to make those decisions.

With regard to the different messages that may be coming from UK Government, when I want to know what it thinks, I listen to Prime Minister May. I have spoken to her on three occasions in the past ten days. She tells me that her government stands by its commitment to avoid a hard border and it is steadfast in its support for the Good Friday Agreement. I trust Prime Minister May on both of those counts.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach will recognise, as I do, that the rhetoric has changed for the worst substantially since last December and that the commitment made initially to no hard border and to protecting the agreement in all its parts has come unstuck because the reality is that members of the Tory Government are openly speculating that the agreement is past its sell-by date and that a hard border is not only necessary but, indeed, desirable to achieve the kind of Brexit they require. It would be remiss of us, and it would be remiss of the Taoiseach as Head of Government, to miss those clear soundings.

The best methodology to provide a backstop to protect the island as a whole and to protect the agreement is the convening of the intergovernmental conference. The Taoiseach has stalled on his response to that. In the absence of that, how does the Taoiseach propose to engage the British Government and the British system to ensure we get back to a position of unanimity regarding no border at all on the island of Ireland, and respect and protection for the agreement?

The Taoiseach

I am happy to answer that. We engage the UK Government by meeting it all the time. In the past ten days, I have spoken twice to, and met once with, Prime Minister May. Last Monday, the Tánaiste met Mr. David Lidington who is the de facto deputy Prime Minister. We engage with them by meeting them face-to-face and talking to them on the phone and when we do not do that, our officials do it at official level, so there is regular contact.

When we negotiate with the UK on European matters and matters related to Brexit, we do so as part of the EU27 through the Barnier task force. It is demonstrable to everyone now that Ireland is in a much stronger position when we negotiate as one of 27 and as a Union of 27 rather than isolating ourselves and being on our own, and we will continue to do exactly that.

As Head of the Government, I stand by the primacy of the Good Friday Agreement. The Government is co-guarantor of the agreement and everyone in the House stands by it. I have heard some of the hardline Brexiteers who are not members of the British Government questioning the future of the agreement. These are the same people who say to us that we should respect the 51.8% vote in favour of their referendum for Brexit. I remind them that the Good Friday Agreement was approved by the Irish people - 94% in this State and 71% in Northern Ireland - and they should respect our vote too.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I pay tribute to our public servants who are carrying out vital work today throughout the country to help people reach their destination and to keep our emergency services in operation and I pay tribute to all those who are helping their neighbours and friends around the country.

People are battening down the hatches across the country. The worst of Storm Emma and the Siberian wind is yet to hit. While people are out and about today and at work, it is likely that from tonight they will be confined to their homes for some days to come. That is, of course, those who have a home. The homelessness figures for January were published yesterday. Following a brief drop in December, the figures have continued to increase. There are currently 9,104 people homeless in Ireland. They comprise 5,837 adults and a record 3,267 children who are relying on emergency accommodation. It is a sad reflection of our Government that the best excuse the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government could offer was that the extent of the increase was not anticipated. Over the past week, the Government has been focused on spending €1.5 million on propaganda to promote investment in a ten-year national development plan while more than 9,000 of our citizens are without a roof over their heads to call their own. These are real people and real lives are being impacted by this crisis.

Research by Focus Ireland published last November demonstrated the impact the crisis is having on children. The deep negative effect on their emotional and mental health has been documented and the statement yesterday by the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, that babies living in hotels are not reaching their development milestones is a shocking indictment of a failed policy. The State will have to deal with the repercussions of this for a generation. Rebuilding Ireland is not delivering the homes needed. The Minister has asked the Dublin Region Homeless Executive to investigate the matter and to prepare a detailed report but that will not help a single family. The problem is not enough social housing is being built and there is no co-ordinated effort to rapidly bring vacant housing back into use while there is no security of tenure for tenants as landlords seek to raise rents, refurbish or sell their properties. Despite commitments by the then Minister to end the use of emergency accommodation by last July, it remains the first port of call. It is an outrage in a modern, developed, wealthy country, such as Ireland, that more than 3,000 of our children are homeless. Figures provided to me yesterday show that a total of 1,517 families were using emergency accommodation during January but, that month, 700 homeless families were recorded as staying in hotels and bed and breakfasts in the Dublin region, with 385 of them having been in them for longer than six months. What new plans has the Taoiseach to address this? Will he personally ensure rigid targets are set to reduce month on month the number of homeless children?

The Taoiseach

The figures for the number of people in emergency accommodation that were published yesterday are bad and they are distressing for everyone affected by homelessness and for everyone who is working night and day to resolve the enormous social problem we face. As the Deputy correctly pointed out, they are disappointing given that they had gone down in December. Many of us hoped that was the beginning of a trend but it is certainly not possible to say that at the moment as they have gone back up again. That says to us that we must redouble our efforts to increase the supply of affordable and social housing and all other forms of housing. As the Deputy correctly pointed out, that is the fundamental solution to this problem. Following seven years of almost no houses being built, we are ramping up housing construction again - both social housing and private sector housing. People moving into new homes frees up rental properties for others. Project Ireland 2040, which was published two weeks ago, has housing all the way through it.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

And Fine Gael candidates.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

It should be called Fine Gael 2019 with a budget of €1.5 million.

The Taoiseach

It is all about housing among other things, and it contains a commitment to build 110,000 new social homes and apartments over the next ten years.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach is starting to believe his own editorial.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

They were announced three years ago.

The Taoiseach

That is happening. There were only a few hundred social homes built in 2016 but thousands were built last year and the number is being ramped up again this year, although it will take time to get on top of this problem.

Our major concern today is rough sleepers given the bad weather people are facing. We are ensuring there is food, health and shelter for everyone who needs it. Teams were on the streets last night and they are on the streets today encouraging people to come in. I am told that only about a dozen people did not come in last night. I pay tribute to the efforts of the charity, NGO, council and departmental staff who are working hard, particularly in this bad weather, to make sure everyone who is sleeping rough is aware that shelter, food and heat are available for them. We are working closely with groups such as the McVerry Trust and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to make sure that is the case.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The Taoiseach acknowledged that the numbers are bad but I did not detect a sense of urgency to deal with the issue. For example, last week, we were able to rush through legislation to recruit a Garda Commissioner in one day.

I want to see the same sense of urgency in terms of giving the Residential Tenancies Board real powers to hold landlords to account and to protect tenants from being evicted, which is actually happening, and building and renovating new homes. We know what the solutions are. However, there are thousands of children at risk today and will be at risk if there is not a sense of urgency. I want to know if the Taoiseach will declare a state of emergency to ensure all the resources of the State are directed at addressing this once and for all. Will he set real targets and will he personally ensure they are met to reduce the number of children and families homeless and in emergency accommodation?

The Taoiseach

If we could solve homelessness in a day, we would do that. If it was a case of rushing through legislation or a piece of-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Seven years.

Deputy Robert Troy

Seven years. It is being made worse day by day.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy's party crashed the economy.

The Taoiseach

-----legislation that would give everyone a house, we would of course do that. However, the Deputy was a Minister of State with responsibility for housing, sitting at the Cabinet table-----

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Our numbers were nothing like that.

The Taoiseach

-----for three years, and she knows as well as I do how complex this problem is.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Sure, a house was not built.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is everybody else's record.

The Taoiseach

There was a period of seven years during which this country was so broke that we were not able to build social housing and during which the construction industry and the banks were on the floor and were not able to finance or build private housing during which time it would have been expected that 200,000 or 300,000 homes to be built.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I would say that record will not be surpassed by the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

However, they were not. We know the causes of that crash. I certainly do not hold the Deputy responsible for it at all or for not building more houses in those three and a half years during which she was the Minister of State with responsibility for housing.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I would say she is delighted with that absolution.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is a better record than the Taoiseach has.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Taoiseach. His time is up.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I am not sure the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, will get the same absolution for the few bob to the pensioners. He might not be as generous.

The Taoiseach

We are in a catch up.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Taoiseach

We are in a catch up scenario and we are catching up. However, it is going to take time. There is an absolute sense of urgency and emergency. We would not be providing for so many people to stay in emergency accommodation and we certainly would not have a situation where we are avoiding families having to be on the streets by making sure there is emergency accommodation available, whether it is hotels or hubs, if we did not see this as an emergency.

Deputy Joan Collins

There has been much hand-wringing and crocodile tears shed in respect of the proposed sale by Permanent TSB of 18,000 distressed mortgages to unregulated vulture funds which the Taoiseach had control of under his watch. What Permanent TSB, Ulster Bank or potentially AIB are proposing to do is entirely in line with Fine Gael policy in government over the past five years.

Tens of billions of euros have been sold off to hedge funds, private equity giants and international banks. The biggest seller in this was the State through the medium of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. The liquidation of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, facilitated the sell off of €22 billion in loans in a matter of months. This all started, appropriately enough, in Davos in 2014 when the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, met with representatives of American vulture fund, Lone Star. They offered to buy all of NAMA's debt and was turned down. When Deputy Noonan returned, he asked NAMA how it could tap into this international demand for distressed Irish assets. NAMA moved from managing assets to a sell off agency - the very thing which NAMA was supposed to prevent. A fire sale of distressed assets was actually initiated by NAMA under the Taoiseach's Government's watch.

Tax breaks were also introduced to further entice the vultures. Only €20,000 was paid in tax by 24 different companies despite controlling €20 billion in assets. The use of section 110 allowed huge investment entities from the United States to pay between €75 and €250 in tax. It is shameful. Fine Gael policy, without a whimper of protest from the Labour Party in government, was to save the banks. If people lost their homes or small businesses, that was just collateral damage.

There is now talk of extending Central Bank regulations to cover the vulture funds. The idea this is a solution for people with mortgage arrears will not stop repossessions or evictions. It does not correspond with reality. Yesterday, in my constituency, an elderly man in poor health was due to be evicted. After our intervention the sheriff has agreed to postpone the eviction for a month. We have been trying to find alternative accommodation for him for two years. We have not been able to do it through the council. That is the reality of people's lives.

I suggest to the Taoiseach, as a key part of the solution, as per the Irish Congress of Trade Unions' charter for housing rights, that there should be no evictions without suitable alternative accommodation. There can be no evictions to nowhere. Evicting a family or an individual into homelessness must be prohibited by law. That has to be the case because we know the resolutions are only voluntary with the banks and lenders. People are facing evictions. Immediate emergency legislation is needed to amend the Housing Act 1998 to give local authorities a statutory duty in this area and the resources necessary to back them up. Will the Taoiseach do this?

The Taoiseach

I totally appreciate the considerable concern that exists around the proposed sale of mortgages by Permanent TSB. It has struck a raw nerve with the people. Many people raised it with me over the weekend. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, is examining this matter. We agreed to accept in principle legislation from Fianna Fáil to extend regulation over investment funds. We are bringing forward legislation proposed by the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, to strengthen the courts in their requirement to take into account family circumstances such as the ones the Deputy mentioned when it comes to repossession. We are looking at other options as well. We are very much on the side of honest people who are making an honest attempt to pay their mortgage, to pay down their loans if they can and to settle their debts.

In Ireland we have strong protections for homeowners, for borrowers and for mortgage holders. If one looks at a the number of repossessions relative to other countries, it is much less likely that a home will be repossessed in Ireland than in many other countries, such as Spain, the UK and many others. That is because of the strong protections we give to homeowners and borrowers in terms of property rights and the rights that apply to those individuals. The number of repossession orders is going down. We have been told on many occasions there would be a tsunami of repossessions. In fact, the numbers have been going down.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The vulture funds get their hands on them.

The Taoiseach

We do need to make a distinction here. We need to make sure that the courts are allowed to hear cases. There may be circumstances whereby somebody can pay but is refusing to pay. That is a different circumstance and we have a good court system. People go into the courts, tell their story and their case is heard. The courts generally make the right decisions and do not provide eviction orders or repossession orders without grounds for doing so.

Deputy Joan Collins

The Taoiseach's Government saved the banking system but at a huge cost to ordinary people. It might seem that everything is fine. Bank of Ireland made a profit of €1 billion last year. It is paying a dividend to shareholders for the first time since 2008. The new chief executive is doing well too on €1 million a year. The European Central Bank, ECB, does not agree. There are €34 billion in non-performing loans in the system - the reason for the ECB pressure to resolve the situation. This one size fits all European policy is not enough.

I do not believe Bank of Ireland will be as generous in compensating those on tracker mortgages from whom it stole money. On Monday night, there was an attempted eviction of a family in Balbriggan. This family was engaged with the bank and was paying the agreed amount. However, a move was still made to move the family out of its home. The main point I want to make is that the Central Bank regulations, the mortgage arrears resolution process, MARP, does not guarantee no repossessions if people engage with the lender. I have experienced that as I am sure everybody in this Chamber has. Some 10% of Members go to Mr. David Hall of the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation looking for support. We are all engaging in these situations with the bank. I repeat the point that there is a solution and there is action that can be taken. The Taoiseach should bring in a law, amend the Housing Act 1998 and try to attempt to stop evictions and make sure people do not go into homelessness.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, to conclude on this matter.

The Taoiseach

It is always the case when a new law is debated in this House that there is the law itself and the law of unintended consequences. There is a distinction to be made between people who are making an honest attempt to pay their mortgage, settle their debts and pay as much as they can pay, and people who could do so but who are not. There is a difference in that regard and any reasonable person will recognise that.

In regard to what the Government is doing, in addition to what I have said, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, is in consultation with the Central Bank to review the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. That code of conduct already exists. We want to examine whether it can be strengthened or whether it should perhaps not be voluntary.

I often hear people talking about this Government or a previous Government saving the banking system, as if that was just about bankers. Let us not forget what the banking system is. It is millions of people's deposits and savings.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Millions of people in Anglo Irish Bank?

Deputy Joan Collins

Bring in a public banking system and give people an alternative.

The Taoiseach

It is the money companies hold on deposit to pay their staff. It is necessary to have a banking system to ensure that people can get loans, mortgages to buy homes, credit to keep their businesses going or credit to set up a business. We also must ensure that people get decent interest rates. There is a huge distinction between banks such as Anglo Irish Bank, which was bailed out by a Government of which I was not a member, and banks such as Bank of Ireland and AIB, which were bailed out by this Government and for a good reason. It was to protect people's deposits, to protect jobs and payroll and to make sure people could continue to have access to credit.

Deputy Michael McGrath

They got a lot of deposits as well - about €50 billion.

The Taoiseach

The difference when it comes to the last two banks is that we will recover that money.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They were all part of the one decision.

The Taoiseach

We have already recovered the money from Bank of Ireland and I believe we will recover it from AIB in time too.