Joint Committee on Education and Skills debate -
Tuesday, 7 Nov 2017

Home School Community Liaison Scheme: Discussion

Chairman

The committee is in public session. Members and witnesses are requested to turn off their mobile phones or to switch them to flight mode; not that we are taking off anywhere fancy and in fact we have a few hours of hard work ahead of us. Mobile phones interfere with the sound system and create difficulties for the parliamentary reporters, television coverage and web streaming, which may be adversely affected.

At this point in the meeting, we have come to our engagement on the home school community liaison scheme and the strengthening families programme, an evaluation of which I was very pleased to see in my own county of Kildare approximately six weeks ago. I was very impressed and could really see the excellent co-operation between the home-school liaison scheme and the strengthening families programme. As such, I thought it would be very useful in the context of the work of the joint committee to deal with this as one of our subject items. We will engage with a number of stakeholders in respect of both the scheme and the programme.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Mr. Noel Kelly, director of the national educational welfare service in Tusla, accompanied by Ms Maria Tobin, integrated services manager for Tusla. I also welcome Ms Maeve McCafferty from the INTO. We also will write to the ASTI and the TUI seeking written submissions and any recommendations they have and will incorporate those into our final report. Also in attendance are Ms Aisling Browne and Ms Jenny Gannon, who are home school community liaison teachers in a junior and primary school on the same campus. They are accompanied by Ms Mary Lenihan, a former home school community liaison teacher from whose positive experience and enthusiasm Ms Browne and Ms Gannon have learned a great deal. From the Department of Education and Skills, I welcome Mr. Martin Shiel, assistant principal officer in the special education unit, and Ms Chris Kelly, assistant principal officer in the social inclusion unit. I also welcome Mr. Pádraig O'Donovan and Mr. Andy Leeson of Foróige, who will address the strengthening families programme. The format of the meeting is that I will invite brief opening statements of approximately five minutes, which time can be shared if there are two witnesses from the same body, followed by an engagement with the members. Witnesses will have an opportunity to come back and answer questions or make comments in response.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee.

However, if they are directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Any opening statements provided to the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against persons outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Kelly and Ms Tobin from Tusla to make their opening statements.

Mr. Noel Kelly

The home school community liaison scheme is important to me because I happened to be one of the first 45 people in the scheme back in the 1990s. It propelled me on a different route in my career and I have not been back in a classroom since. One could say that is probably for the good of children.

The scheme was set up in 1990 under the auspices of the Department of Education and Skills. It is now a central component of Tusla's education welfare services and is used as a means of reaching out to and engaging families in the education of their children. It has continued to expand and remains central to the Delivering Equality of Opportunities in Schools, DEIS, programme and is a main policy intervention from the Department of Education and Skills to address educational disadvantage. Together with the school completion programme and the statutory educational welfare services, the home school community liaison scheme is working to deliver a fully integrated, streamlined and cost-effective service in schools serving designated areas of disadvantage.

The overall aim of the integrated services is to improve school attendance and participation, as well as the retention of children in education, thus improving their life chances. The strategic goals of Tusla, namely, keeping children safe, enabling families to make good decisions about their health and lifestyles, helping children engage with education and develop as active citizens, capable of economic independence, imply that partnership with communities, agencies and families is central to its work. This model of partnership working continues to be central to the home school community liaison scheme. This approach is about building positive and trusting relationships with communities and families, particularly reaching out to the most marginalised families and developing and maintaining high levels of skills and motivation.

Together with social work and educational welfare services, the home school community liaison scheme is uniquely placed to deliver a comprehensive range of services, along a continuum of care to marginalised children and families, utilising international best practice and evidence-based interventions. These are proportionate and effective in achieving improved outcomes.

Ms Maria Tobin

I was a home school community liaison scheme co-ordinator in Limerick for six years. The scheme is particularly close to my heart and I am delighted to present to the committee on it today.

The goals which underpin all work of the home school community liaison scheme are to maximise the active participation of children in the learning process, in particular, those who might be at risk of failure; and to promote active co-operation between home, school and relevant community agencies in promoting the educational interests of children. Prior to the home school community liaison scheme, schools may not have been linking in as much as they do now with community networks. The scheme aims to raise parents' awareness of their own capacity to enhance their children's progress and to assist them in developing relevant skills.

It aims to enhance children's uptake from education, their retention in the system and their continuation to post-compulsory education, as well as to enhance children's attitudes to life-long learning and to disseminate the positive outcomes from the scheme throughout the school system.

Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, has responsibility for the operational management of the home school community liaison, HSCL, scheme through an integrated services strategy. One national integrated services manager employed by Tusla and four senior managers, who are teachers seconded by the Department of Education and Skills to Tusla, have overall responsibility for the implementation and development of both DEIS policy and planning strategies with HSCL and for Tusla’s strategic goals regarding educational welfare. The 416 full-time HSCL co-ordinators are all teachers in the designated schools and are assigned for a five-year term to HSCL duties. As teachers, they have a unique understanding of pedagogy and of strategies that help parents to support the education of their children. At school level, there is a clear focus on targeting in a planned and cohesive manner, improved planning and evidence-based interventions and measurement of outcomes. To this end, all HSCL co-ordinators are undergoing a comprehensive programme of continuous professional development, CPD, in order that they are better equipped to deliver a streamlined, coherent and consistent service. As members of their school staffs, co-ordinators are to the forefront of promoting a school-wide approach to addressing issues of educational disadvantage, as well as of cultural change.

Home school community liaison co-ordinators run several initiatives to improve literacy and numeracy in line with national strategies. They facilitate the active involvement of parents at curricular and policy level in schools and they train parents to become a resource to each other, to their school and above all, to their own children. Furthermore, as part of their integrated work with the other two strands of the educational welfare service, namely, the school completion programme and statutory educational welfare service, home school community liaison co-ordinators ensure that all possible supports and initiatives will have been attempted prior to formal referrals being made to the statutory arm of the service. At local level, co-ordinators operate a cluster model of support where co-ordinators in a close geographical area come together to formulate action plans, share best practice, provide mutual support and develop effective interventions in their own schools.

Chairman

It is interesting that both Mr. Kelly and Ms Tobin come from the background of being on the ground. I must confess that I completed a course with Sr. Concepta Conaty in the 1990s when the scheme came out. I was a primary schoolteacher at that time. I invite Ms Maeve McCafferty from the INTO to give her presentation.

Ms Maeve McCafferty

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here. The INTO recognises that the HSCL scheme has enhanced pupils' learning opportunities and promoted retention in the education system through a partnership approach between parents and teachers. Often parents of pupils who attend DEIS schools have had a poor experience of education themselves and find it difficult to engage in parental involvement at school level. The HSCL teacher works closely with parents to enable them to better support and encourage their own children in education.

Notwithstanding the success of the scheme, in recent years HSCL teachers have been over-stretched and under-resourced as a consequence of recessionary cutbacks. The scheme needs continued commitment to investment and a renewed vision to ensure it responds to the increasing needs of pupils and families living in challenging contexts. The INTO is hopeful that the educational welfare service within Tusla will offer a renewed commitment to safeguarding and progressing the very valuable HSCL scheme.

The ambitions set out for the HSCL scheme can only be realised when accompanied by targeted and sustainable funding. The HSCL portion of the annual DEIS grant currently stands at 10% and is allocated for the implementation of activities that are consistent with the principles and practices of the HSCL scheme.

However, in order to provide meaningful and targeted supports, more funding should be assigned to DEIS schools to support such worthwhile initiatives.

Since the recessionary cutbacks, professional development opportunities for HSCL teachers have been minimal. The preventative role of the HSCL encompasses a broad remit, including courses, transfer programmes, integration with community groups, policy formation at school level, literacy and numeracy development and staff development to name but a few. Due to the broad and ever-evolving nature of the HSCL role, a commitment to ongoing professional development and opportunities for networking within clusters is required. Professional induction support is also required for newly appointed HSCLs as there is increasing turnover due to the five-year limit on the deployment of HSCL teachers. Adequate induction is important to ensure that consistency, experience and expertise are harnessed. The INTO acknowledges and welcomes the recent commitment by the educational welfare services to a comprehensive CPD programme that is under way. However, in light of the developing nature of the role and the staff turnover within HSCL, the INTO reiterates the need for professional development to be ongoing. While there is some rationale for introducing a five-year limit on the deployment of HSCL teachers, a balance must be achieved to ensure the five-year limit does not result in schools losing experienced teachers who have invested time in establishing strong relationships with families.

While acknowledging the need to enable all teachers to experience the role of the HSCL, the INTO is of the view that schools should be granted the autonomy and flexibility at local level to deploy the best placed teacher to the role of HSCL rather than be confined by a five-year limit. Staff deployment is a function of the school principal as set out in the Education Acts.

The cut to rural DEIS HSCL support is regrettable. Rural DEIS schools have specific needs and would benefit from improved home school links. Arguably, there is a role for HSCL support to build home school relations in all primary schools. The HSCL scheme should be reassigned to all schools recognised as having educational disadvantage status and consideration should be given to extending the scheme to special schools who have particular needs in terms of home school relations.

The level of engagement required to support Travellers needs intervention beyond that which can be incorporated into the current remit of the HSCL role. In an attempt to counteract the loss of resources to Travellers, the INTO proposes that consideration should be given to expanding the allocation of HSCL teachers in areas that have a high concentration of Traveller pupils, including non-DEIS schools. Extending the capacity of HSCL to support Traveller pupils and their families would require specific CPD opportunities for HSCL teachers that would enhance their understanding of Traveller culture and the specific barriers faced by Travellers in education.

Home visitation is an integral part of the HSCL scheme. The nature of home visits has evolved in recent years and HSCL teachers sometimes find it problematic fulfilling the requirement for home visits. Some parents are reluctant to accommodate HSCL visits in the home and prefer school-based visits as the practice of home visits does not always align with their culture. Interactions with parents should be about the contact irrespective of the context. Schools and HSCL teachers need to be trusted with the flexibility and discretion to determine locally whether home or school interactions are most appropriate at any given time.

While the INTO supports the integrated, cross-agency approach to supporting children and their families, it is important to state that HSCL teachers are not social workers or welfare officers and do not want to take on roles for which they are not qualified. Participation of HSCL teachers in Meitheal should not be obligatory. In the event that teachers are involved, they should have the opportunity to do so with the relevant supports in place, such as substitution cover. Any involvement in Meitheal or similar programmes should not involve excessive paperwork for teachers and schools. The INTO is strongly of the view that the role of the HSCL teacher in building lasting relationships between the home and the school is essential in tackling educational disadvantage. Parental involvement, especially in areas at risk of social exclusion, does not just benefit the child and the school; it is a crucial aspect of lifelong learning.

Parental involvement, especially in areas at risk of social exclusion, does not just benefit the children and the school, but is a crucial aspect of lifelong learning.

Chairman

I now call Ms Browne and Ms Gannon, who I presume will split the time between them. It is important that we get to hear of their real experience on the ground and for that to be as up-to-date as possible. There could be no two better teachers to tell us about that than Ms Browne and Ms Gannon.

Ms Aisling Browne

I am in the fourth year of my five-year term as HSCL in Scoil Mhuire Sóisearach and Ms Gannon is HSCL in the Scoil Mhuire senior school. The HSCL scheme in schools is an extensive one that enhances the life of the school and the lives of families where HSCL is involved. When children enrol in Scoil Mhuire Sóisearach, HSCL is part of the admission team that identifies and refers families who may be in need of extra support.

Home visits help to break down existing barriers, offering supports to parents, and are crucial to bridging the gap between home and school. Sitting at a kitchen table with a father or a mother hearing their deepest concerns and desires for their family is challenging work, but a privilege gifted to us in the role. It is a privilege to be able to listen in a non-judgmental way and offer support. We can offer educational guidance when helping parents accessing extra supports if their child has learning difficulties or behavioural needs.

The dedicated space of a parents' room enables us to chat informally with parents to further create and build open supportive relationships between home and school. This space also lends a hand to creating communities, encouraging relationships between parents to grow so that they can then, as Ms Tobin mentioned, support each other.

Being a parent is a difficult job, especially being a parent who is at home all day as it can be extremely isolating. Many times parents tell us that without the parents' room they would not speak to another adult all day and that their engagement in the parents' room has changed their lives and may have helped them make their first friend in many years.

We offer courses for parents from personal development to literacy and numeracy initiatives, and parenting programmes to increase parental confidence in supporting their child with homework. Engagement in the parents' room has led to a new positive outlook on education. It builds parents' confidence and many return to VTOS or the ETB for classes or courses. This is very positive for parents and children alike.

We organise day trips with parents and they are always thoroughly enjoyable. The Chairman kindly invited us to Leinster House last December. Some of the parents commented that they never thought they would ever be in this building. It is wonderful to be able to facilitate that. In September of this year we brought a group of parents to the National Ploughing Championships. Off we went with our wellies and everything, and we had a wonderful day.

Senator Ruane kindly accepted our invitation to visit us in Scoil Mhuire. She sat for an hour and chatted with the parents, and shared her inspirational life story with them. That was another wonderful opportunity for parents to engage.

Parental engagement with the HSCL increases motivation and encourages desire in parents to become part of their community, building self-confidence and self-esteem. Ultimately all our interventions aim to promote and nurture positive mental health of the adults in our school family. This, in turn, has a positive effect in the home. Parents are the primary educators of their children and their own personal development impacts greatly on a household.

Parents are encouraged, through the HSCL scheme, to engage in classroom activities and initiatives in school: Maths for Fun, Science for Fun, Literacy Lift-off.

Regarding shared reading with the children, children delight in seeing their parents involved in school activities and in their education. Parents engaging positively with school reiterates the benefit of education and encourages the children to engage more and to believe in the power of education. Parents and teachers share a common goal, wanting what is best for our children. Working side by side with parents strengthens our efforts to provide the best we can for them. HSCL enables us to achieve our goals for each child, striving to break the cycle of educational disadvantage. Working collaboratively in an integrated service with the schools completion programme and an educational welfare officer, we aim to ensure the child, parents and, ultimately, the family engage in a positive manner with education. It remains of paramount importance that it is a qualified teacher who fulfils the role because of the complex nature of individual educational needs and the need to fully understand the curriculum methodologies, etc.

Working in this role in recent years has led me to a deeper understanding of children's situations and what they may have to deal with before they arrive in school at all. I am certain that I will return to the classroom a very different teacher with more realistic aims, though continuing to challenge children to reach their full potential. My time in HSCL has enriched my professional career, deepened my belief in the power of education as well as guiding me to do my best for others when I can.

Ms Jenny Gannon

Oftentimes, HSCL is the only support going into a house and sometimes for families who have been engaged in other support services, we are the only support that is left in a house. Isolation is detrimental, and it is critical and crucial that we are all linked to our communities, so one of the great jobs of HSCL is to encourage that engagement and that openness to other community agencies, whether statutory or voluntary, whether it is their children becoming involved in the local family resource centre or taking part in the strengthening families programme or going through the process of the Meitheal with Tusla or facilitating parenting courses and self-esteem programmes for children. All of these encourage them to do what is ultimately the most difficult job in the world, and that is to parent children. As a senior school, moving from primary to secondary school is one area of particular stress and difficulties for many families in our schools. We run a transition programme that supports families through the entire process, from discussing which secondary school setting may suit their child best to enrolling in the school, attending the open nights. In our local community college, St. Conleth's, we are lucky enough to have a HSCL teacher there who we liaise with to ensure a smooth transition. We facilitate the stepping stones programme, which is run by the local Kildare youth project workers, which are also then informed by our SCP and HSCL teams to support the children's transitions through and on to secondary school. My role in that is very much to support the parents to get their children to engage, to discuss how to set up good habits for secondary school and to investigate ways to help keep their children in school. Because of the position of trust that we hold with families, we know their stories. Their stories inform their children's stories, and their children's stories inform the stories of the classroom. As a teacher, I know that helpful small snippets of information can support and be a huge support to a child within a classroom, so oftentimes it will be my job to share, with the permission of the parent, a story that is relevant specifically to the child in the room. It is because of this shared information that behaviours will be sorted out, relationships will be built and children will ultimately positively engage in the classroom and in the school. Ultimately, we are working on a cultural change, a long-term effect. We need to do that, completing all of the paperwork and monitoring and everything else that is required of us, without impinging on the dignity of the families who are part of our service. Having been in the school now for 18 years since the home school liaison was set up in the school, I now can see the long-lasting effect of that.

I can see the rewards because parents who initially engaged in the parents' room all the way back then now bring their children to school themselves. They regularly stop me or Ms Browne in the yard and tell us they remember when their mother was in with us and did a course and that they cannot wait to start their course, or that they were involved in the classroom with Maths for Fun and ask whether it is still done and whether they can get involved. For all of us who work and who want our children to progress through education positively, the HSCL scheme impacts very positively on everybody involved in the education process, including the parents, teachers, pupils, community and, at the end of the day, our whole society.

Chairman

I will now call the witnesses from the Department, but before I do I must inform them that I must excuse myself in a few moments and I will ask Deputy Martin to take the Chair. I need to speak in the Chamber shortly. I ask the witnesses to forgive me when they see me leaving and sneaking back in.

Mr. Martin Shiel

If I may inform the Chairman of a slight correction, I am an assistant principal in the social inclusion unit, the same as my colleague, Ms Kelly.

Chairman

I apologise.

Mr. Martin Shiel

DEIS, Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, is the Department of Education and Skill's main policy intervention to address educational disadvantage. DEIS Plan 2017, published earlier this year, represents a renewal of the DEIS programme and sets out a vision for future intervention in the area of social inclusion in educational policy. DEIS focuses on addressing and prioritising the educational needs of children and young people from disadvantaged communities, from pre-school through second level education, three to 18 years, through the school support programme, which includes a suite of interventions, comprising in-school and out-of-school supports.

The HSCL scheme is a key support for DEIS urban primary and post-primary schools, which operates as part of the integrated educational welfare service of Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. Tusla, which is the dedicated State agency responsible for improving well-being and outcomes for children, has responsibility for the management of the HSCL scheme, together with the school completion programme and the statutory educational welfare service. Tusla's educational welfare service works collaboratively with our Department and schools to ensure that children’s participation in the education system is maximised. The HSCL scheme is in existence since 1990. The underlying vision and thrust of the HSCL scheme is preventative; therefore, it seeks to promote and develop real partnership between parents, schools and communities, in order to enhance pupils' outcomes and learning opportunities, through improved attendance, participation and retention in the education system.

The role of the HSCL co-ordinator is to work primarily with the salient adults in the child's life, in order to empower them, so that they can better support their children to attend school, participate in education and develop positive attitudes to life-long learning. Central to the HSCL initiative is the identification of educational needs and the provision of a tailored and proportionate response to those needs, through a range of interventions, which are evidence-based, focused and structured.

All DEIS urban primary and DEIS post-primary schools are included in the HSCL scheme, which serves 539 schools. The scheme is delivered by 416 full-time HSCL co-ordinators, with 235 at primary and 181 at post-primary level, who are teachers in these schools and assigned to HSCL duties either in individual schools or clusters of schools, catering for approximately 156,000 pupils. The current cost of this provision to our Department is €25 million. For DEIS schools included in the HSCL scheme, it is a requirement that at least 10% of the annual DEIS grant to each school should be allocated for use on HSCL activities and made available to the HSCL co-ordinator. The total allocation for the DEIS grant from our Department is approximately €16 million.

The post of HSCL co-ordinator is required to be rotated at least every five years in order to provide greater opportunities to gain experience for teachers in the area of educational disadvantage, and, in turn, to bring experience gained in the role back into the school to complement teaching and learning in the classroom.

This arrangement serves to develop experience and build capacity within the teaching staff in the important area of parental engagement and identification of the challenges in the home background of particular pupils. HSCL co-ordinators, as agents of change in schools, work in an integrated way with all other support services, particularly school completion, SCP, staff and educational welfare officers, to implement a whole-school approach to improving attendance, participation and retention in education for the most marginalised and educationally disadvantaged pupils. They also have a critical role in supporting the development, implementation, evaluation and review of the school’s DEIS plan, particularly through parental involvement interventions that are designed to improve literacy, numeracy and positive engagement.

HSCL co-ordinators also play a key role in effecting successful transitions through the education continuum: from preschool to primary school; from primary school to second level; within second level from junior to senior cycle; and onwards through appropriate pathways to further and higher education. The role of the HSCL co-ordinator is to empower parents to support their child’s education and to ensure parents are linked in with the various stages of the education continuum by facilitating engagement between teaching and other staff and parents.

I thank the members for the opportunity to address the committee today. My colleague, Mr. Kelly, and I are happy to answer any questions.

Chairman

I take it that Mr. Kelly will link in when we come to questions. Our final speakers are Mr. Pádraig O'Donovan, youth officer, and Mr. Andrew Leeson, area manager, from Foróige. Their contribution here today particularly concerns the strengthening families programme and how it interlinks with home school liaison, where such a liaison exists. I am very conscious, of course, that Foróige works with schools that have no such facility, something that poses particular challenges.

Mr. Andy Leeson

I thank the Chairman and the members for giving us the opportunity to present information about Foróige and its involvement in co-ordinating the delivery of the strengthening families programme. Foróige provides a broad range of services and programmes to young people, families and communities across Ireland. Foróige engages with young people aged from ten to18 to enable them to achieve their full potential regardless of their backgrounds or the challenges that they face. We achieve this through the provision of universal and targeted youth services and education programmes that are proven to deliver positive outcomes for young people. Foróige works with more than 50,000 young people, helping them to build the skills, resilience and belief in their own individual ability to reach their full potential. Foróige’s work is embedded in communities across Ireland and is a unique partnership between young people, parents, volunteers, and the community.

Involvement in youth work benefits all young people. It is a strong preventative factor in delaying young people’s experimentation with substances and also helps develop their skills to reduce the harms associated with alcohol and substance misuse. Foróige operates a number of drug prevention and education projects around the country which work with young people, parents and families in delivering a range of evidence-based educational and awareness programmes along with providing support and training to schools and others in the community. The aim of all of these programmes is to reduce or delay drug and alcohol use among young people. This is achieved through the delivery of primary and secondary drug prevention programmes for young people as well as training and support for parents, schools and community-based organisations.

My colleague, Mr. Pádraig O'Donovan, will now tell the committee more about the strengthening families programme.

Mr. Pádraig O'Donovan

The strengthening families programme is an evidence-based family skills training programme that involves parents and young people for three hours once a week over 14 weeks. This programme aims to reduce risk factors around alcohol and drug use, mental health challenges and criminal behaviour. It does this by increasing family strengths, developing young people’s social competencies and improving positive parenting skills. The SFP has been identified as a programme that delivers a range of proven benefits for families and young people because of the unique way in which it engages parents and young people together.

The programme structure is that families enjoy a meal for the first hour of each weekly session and then separate into their respective groups - parents, teen or child - for the next hour for a skills based workshop. The family are brought back together for the final hour to practise some of the skills they have learned. Transport and child care for young people are provided where practicable and financially possible in order to reduce barriers and enable families to fully participate in the programme.

The strengthening families programme was introduced to Ireland in 2007. The National strengthening famiilies programme Council of Ireland was established to ensure adherence to the fidelity of the programme and best practice guidelines, to provide training and to bring together co-ordinators and trainers to share their knowledge and experience. Since 2007, in excess of 1,500 families have graduated from the programme. This is the number of families who have linked in with the council. There are other programmes but these numbers are not recorded. The council is not funded and exists only because a number of key agencies support it with staff and time.

The strengthening families programme, SFP, has been delivered in County Kildare since 2008 and is co-ordinated by the Foróige drug prevention and education initiative. Delivery involves a number of statutory, community and voluntary partners, including social work, drugs education, youth and probation services, family resource centres and the County Kildare Leader partnership. This year, the first independent evaluation of SFP in Kildare was commissioned with a particular focus on 2014-2016. The results of the evaluation highlighted significant improvements in family communication and relationships, child behaviour, parental competencies and confidence. This also leads to reduced service utilisation by families. Families reported being better able to deal with problems and to spend more time together as a family. Some parents also reported increased trust, self-esteem and social skills among children. Parents indicated an improvement in school attendance and behaviour in school. The following is a quotation from one parent interviewed for the evaluation: "The teachers couldn't get over the change in him. Before, he had to sit on his own.....but now he's interacting back in the class."

The strengthening families programme has been identified as a fit for families in cases where schools are facing challenges with young people who have very little structure in their lives, which may be due to inconsistent parenting and family experiences. SFP has the ability to bring about positive change for whole families rather than just focusing on the one identified problem child. Parents' relationships with schools also improve as they gain useful skills and confidence to engage better with teachers allowing for a unified approach to working with the young person. Schools are very enthusiastic about the programme, which is highly regarded by principals and teaching staff who see first-hand the benefits to pupils and parents of engagement in the programme.

Deputy Catherine Martin took the Chair.

Mr. Pádraig O'Donovan

Home school sommunity liaisons and education welfare officers are among our many referrers, with almost one third of this year's participants having been referred by them to the strengthening families programme in Kildare. The success of the programme in Kildare is due to the inter-agency collaboration, which is a core part of its delivery. It relies on the support and involvement of link workers and facilitators whose time is given by statutory and community agencies to support and implement the delivery of the programme. Co-ordination of the programme is a significant undertaking in terms of the time and resources required to oversee all of the elements of the programme from referrals and home visits to co-ordinating the steering group and weekly programme sessions. Given the success of the model, the proven outcomes and the demand for places on the programme, our ambition for the programme in County Kildare and elsewhere is that a role be funded to oversee the delivery of the strengthening families programme.

The strengthening families programme has been shown to reduce risk factors and increase protective factors for families and for young people. The programme works because it is a unique relationship building and community engagement piece by Foróige and its partners. The evaluation report clearly demonstrates the benefits of the programme and outlines the need for a sustainable funding structure to be put in place. There is a clear appetite to see this programme delivered more widely. Foróige is committed to supporting the delivery of the strengthening families programme in Kildare and elsewhere and to maintaining the crucial interagency relationships that help achieve the desired outcomes.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I taught in a DEIS school for 16 years. In my opinion, home school liaison links in well with the Education Welfare Office. The school completion officers are the unsung heroes of any school.

The teachers see the benefits in the classroom but a lot is done behind the scenes and in the community around the parents' room. I commend the incredible work being done, as well as the strengthening of families. The demand for participation is indicative of the success of the programmes for families in need. I will open the meeting to members and will then come back to the witnesses for answers.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I found the presentations extremely interesting. Education is something I am very interested in. Did Mr. Kelly mention being one of the first 45 people to avail of this scheme?

Mr. Noel Kelly

Yes. When the scheme was founded originally in 1990, I was working in Darndale senior school and we were seen as one of the most disadvantaged schools, so I happened to be one of the first batch under Dr. Concepta Conaty. We were the pioneers.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

That is amazing. Given that experience over time, has Mr. Kelly seen improvements in the scheme? Is there still more that needs to be done? From 1990 to today is a significant amount of time and I seek his opinion in this regard.

Mr. Noel Kelly

The biggest challenge when we started was that we were so different from what was happening in schools. We were this small group of people who were not actually in a classroom teaching. It was quite a challenge to convince colleagues that we were actually doing a real job because people had this impression that one was drinking tea with parents all the time. It took a while to establish oneself. Building a profile in the community I found was the first challenge. One had to become known in the community, be visible around the community and be accepted in the community because back in the early 1990s, communities such as Darndale, which were quite new, were very suspicious of people in authority. The initial assumption was that we were social workers and that we were there to spy on families and to interfere in the family home and get information. Building comfort and assuring people that one was there to support them and not to obstruct or interfere was very important.

At present, the scheme is widely accepted because we now have 416 people. Over 27 years, many people who have been through the scheme are now school principals or are back in the classroom, or, like myself and Ms Tobin, have gone on to do other things. The scheme is very well received. Recently, I attended a European Union seminar at which representatives of the European Union's countries were impressed with this concept where teachers were released from the classroom to work in the community. We are unique in that. The scheme has gone from strength to strength and is an extremely effective scheme. It is also staffed by really positive people, as the committee has gathered from our colleagues here, who are enthused about the work and who bring energy to their work every day. It is fantastic that we have the five-year rotation, even though there may be objections to it. The more teachers who experience this, the more those teachers learn about what is happening for families and the more realistic they become in their expectations.

Certainly, the first message I brought back to teachers in my school was to not start the day demanding homework from kids who come from really challenging homes because straightaway one is setting up conflict. One should welcome in the children and do positive things to make them feel at home in school, rather than creating a problem before they even get in the door. It is about enabling people to understand what is going on and enabling people to understand the reality of family life.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank Mr. Kelly. I have one question on the Foróige scheme. Mr. O'Donovan talked about inter-agency collaboration. In theory that is a wonderful idea but, as we all know, it does not always work. Do the representatives from Foróige find that it is working because, as Mr. O'Donovan said, collaboration and co-ordination of the programmes is important?

Mr. Andy Leeson

Our experience in County Kildare, and elsewhere where we have delivered the programme, has been extremely positive. In Kildare we have four strategic partners, namely, Foróige ourselves, the south western regional drug and alcohol task force, the County Kildare Leader Partnership and Tusla. These are the four key pillar organisations that support it. We also have active involvement from a range of organisations, from the schools and the home school liaison officers to Kildare youth services, local drug addiction services, family resource centres and juvenile liaison officers in the Garda. There is a steering group that Mr. O’Donovan chairs, which oversees and co-ordinates the work both in terms of getting referrals into the programme and following up on those referrals. Implementation of the programme requires all of those organisations to commit staff, time and resources to support the delivery of the programme.

It is very much reliant on that goodwill, but it is also very much a true inter-agency piece.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I thank the witness and call Deputy O'Sullivan.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I agree with the Chair. The kind of work that is done in this area and that is not necessarily seen is hugely important. One of the big difficulties in areas where DEIS schools operate relates to parents engaging with those schools. This is because many of them had bad experiences at school and they literally do not want to come in the door of the school. In that regard, our guests' role is really important.

Following on from that, I want to ask whether those of our guests who have that experience have recommendations on how schools might engage with parents a bit more. In my constituency, Corpus Christi primary school in Moyross brings parents in by means of encouraging them - mothers and fathers - to attend cooking classes there. In that way, they are made to feel comfortable in the school. Ms Tobin will be familiar with this. I know other schools do that sort of thing. Is there something more that schools can do to bring the families into schools as well as bringing the schools to the families by means of the work our guests do?

The principals of primary and post-primary DEIS schools in Limerick have a really good clustering system whereby they meet and work together. Perhaps the witnesses could comment on clustering.

Ms Tobin and Deputy Madigan referred to measuring outcomes. Does this happen? Perhaps that is a question for the officials from the Department.

Does Tusla engage with the area-based childhood, ABC, programmes, which also come under the remit of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and which involve zoning in on really deprived communities and working with families from the birth of children onwards. Is there some involvement with the ABC programmes, which are really good?

I have a final question. I apologise to the Chair for asking so many. A previous speaker referred to Traveller children. Obviously, not all Traveller children and not all homeless children attend DEIS schools. Are there children who are falling through the cracks? Again, perhaps this is more a question for the Department. I know of Traveller children who attend schools in an area that would be considered quite well-off generally. They are not in DEIS schools but they do come from a very needy family. Children in homeless accommodation would sometimes find themselves in a similar situation. That may not always be the case because they might be able to continue to go to school in their own communities even though they are currently living in hotels or hubs. Perhaps one of the witnesses could comment on how we can get to those children who are often the most vulnerable - by definition, they are the most vulnerable in many cases - and not allow them to fall through the cracks.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I thank the Deputy. We will now take answers to those questions.

Mr. Noel Kelly

I will take a shot at some of the questions. What can be done in schools is all about leadership. If the leadership in the school is open and welcomes and embraces parents, then all kinds of things are possible. Unfortunately, the opposite can be the case and the leadership might be fearful of parents or reluctant to engage. There are many schools that make it quite difficult for parents to actually enter their premises. We put up all kinds of barriers and buzzers and that makes it quite challenging. Obviously, schools have to operate and function but there is room for interaction. It is about accessibility and creating a welcoming atmosphere whereby all the adults on the school staff, if they see a parent, will pop over, say hello, and ask how they are and who they are looking for. It is about creating that positive atmosphere. My colleagues might have more to say about that.

Reference was made to the ABC programmes. I am fortunate enough to have come from there. I have been managing an ABC programme for the past ten years. When one has been around as long as I have, one can dip one's toe into lots of different things. Certainly, we are now embracing some of the really good, evidence-based work that is happening there, particularly through our school completion programme. We have the opportunity to embed some of the evidence-based approaches in that programme. We have also worked very closely with the home school community liaison scheme and the school completion programme. Educational welfare officers are involved in quite a few of the ABC programmes. We would absolutely see the benefits in this regard, particularly in the context of early intervention.

Another really good development is that it is now part of the home school liaison's role to engage with the children in preschool. While many people would have been doing that already, it is now a part of the role that they have to embrace and manage the transition and support families before the children even arrive in a school.

Regarding Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's question about Traveller children and homeless children, the reality is that we know that approximately 50% of children who come from DEIS primary schools migrate to non-DEIS post-primary schools, which is a real challenge. From our point of view, the one aspect of our service that serves all schools is the statutory education welfare services. Where we find the need for support or where families come to our attention, we will support them but, again, we are quite a thin service. We have one welfare officer for every 50 schools, so it is not a very comprehensive service.

Ms Maria Tobin

The home school community liaison teachers might take the final question - we were chatting about it earlier - but I am happy to address the question about outcomes and their measurement. Through our CPD programme we deliver training in logic modelling to home schools. We are working very hard at present to develop a culture of being outcomes-focused - in other words, looking at the desired outcome around attendance, participation and retention and then working backwards, looking at the initiatives we can use to improve these outcomes for children. As one home school co-ordinator said in one of our CPD sessions once: "I work with parents but my job is not to fill the school with parents, but with children." While the home school community liaison programme focuses on the adults in the child's life, our CPD programme is all about improving educational outcomes for children. The logic model looks at those educational outcomes and the initiatives that would best serve those outcomes in the short, medium and long term. The process is reviewed, a baseline is taken and, at the end of a term, the question is asked whether this initiative improved outcomes. For example, did more of the marginalised parents attend the parent-teacher meeting? If so, this is something we can do again and build on. If not, we need to look at another initiative and another way of reaching those families. That is very much on the top of our agenda at present. While it is very helpful to do the soft courses of cookery, sewing and so on, as well as the literacy and numeracy programmes, we need to ensure that these are achieving the desired outcome, which is to keep the child in school.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Does Ms McCafferty wish to add to that?

Ms Maeve McCafferty

Yes. To come in on the point about bringing parents into the school, we have heard back from many of our HSCL teachers that the increased demands for Garda vetting within schools are becoming a real challenge. They are becoming somewhat of a barrier for some parents, particularly in socio-economically disadvantaged areas. It is about getting the balance right, without compromising child protection and so on, obviously, in order that parents are comfortable, are welcome to come into the school and are not met with that additional barrier. Some of them may have had experience in prison and so on, which is obviously a challenge.

Regarding Travellers, I reiterate that we propose that there would be possibly even a shared HSCL teacher in areas of high concentration of Travellers. This might be not just for DEIS schools, but also for non-DEIS schools. Another big gap is in special schools, where there is a very vulnerable group of children as well and a real need to link up the home and the school. Given it has been such a successful scheme, consideration should be given to its expansion to those parents in order that they could have more involvement in the school and more interaction.

Ms Aisling Browne

Regarding bringing parents into the school, in my role - and Ms Gannon and I work very closely together - the building of relationships, specifically the building up of that trusting relationship with parents, is so important. We have been in a very good position; we have had a parents' room. Actually, at present it is a building site as we are in the middle of a new build, but we will have a new parents' room, I hope, in September 2018. Our parents' room is open first thing in the morning. It is a welcoming space. It is a space for parents. We facilitate the activities in that parents' room.

Ms Gannon and I, like previous HSCL teachers, make sure the parents have ownership of that room. Parents come into the room, they feel welcome there, they talk to one another, and there is a space where they can talk in private if they need to talk to one of the HSCL teachers, but it is their room, their space. It is there that they can talk to one another, share ideas, share problems and find solutions, working together.

Facilitating and providing courses for parents is also of huge importance. These courses can be very simple - Ms Tobin referred to classes in sewing and painting and so on - but we have experienced in Newbridge that many target parents have many talents. We have run many parent-led classes. A dad came to do cookery classes with a group of parents over a number of weeks. A mum came to work on cooking with parents as well. That kind of parental engagement is super. One does not always get it, but it is a big success.

Another thing in HSCL is that it is so difficult to measure one's success. However, I remember two years ago speaking with my principal, Brian O'Reilly, while looking out the window at a group of parents whom we had encouraged to paint the yard for the kids. There were times we drove around town calling out the windows at them. I looked out the school window with my principal, Brian, and said: "That is success." There was a mum who had had a terrible time, had been in prison and so on and had defied all the odds. Her child was in school that day, and she was kneeling down painting a snake or something in the junior infants' yard. That is huge success. If we can offer that to a family or to one person, we are reaching our goal and we are getting there. It is also a matter of opportunities to work with the classroom teachers. We involve parents in science week and maths week, and parents come to work with groups of children for maths trails. To get the parents into the school, we want them to feel they are part of this too and that it is not just the children and not just those teachers up there. They are as much a part of the school as their children are. We want them to feel it is a safe space for them to come to.

Ms Jenny Gannon

The Deputy's point about some children in some families falling through the cracks, or the potential for this, is definitely something we must consider as a whole. Because we have the service in our school, there are a number of families to whom we can provide a short-term intervention if a family circumstance changes. If there is a separation of if there has been a bereavement or even a diagnosis of a special educational need within a family, we can step in, support the family and then step back out again, whereas in other schools that do not have the HSCL service, what started out as a small problem can escalate and have a huge detrimental effect on the overall education of the children involved. This is something we must look at, together with the opportunities, if they arise, to expand the service. There are families in every school, not just those in marginalised, disadvantaged areas or those that fall under the DEIS scheme, that need extra supports and extra intervention. The HSCL scheme, its longevity and the history that goes with it show that it really is having a hugely beneficial impact, and that impact could be expanded.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Do Mr. Shiel and Ms Kelly have anything to add? I think Deputy O'Sullivan was looking for some information from the Department.

Ms Chris Kelly

Yes. Regarding the measuring of outcomes, under the new DEIS plan we will develop a monitoring and evaluation framework. The idea of this is to be able to look comprehensively at DEIS and all the various interventions that are there, inform future delivery of educational disadvantage policy and use it as a way of feeding back information to the system in order to ensure improved performance at the system level.

We have just established an advisory implementation group, which involves a range of stakeholders. One of the first sub-committees to be organised under that group will look at the issue of monitoring and evaluation, how we approach it, how we define the kinds of indicators we need to be timing and so on.

With regard to Traveller children, the system currently still has an additional €10 million being allocated for Traveller children. This is by the way of additional teaching posts and capitation grants for them. It is acknowledged that there is a need to be met. Within the DEIS plan we have specific actions in relation to Traveller education.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

I have a query around the school completion programme. I am a big advocate of that programme and I believe that it does not get enough recognition. The programme takes in a lot of children who otherwise may not be deemed suitable to access other services, such as children with mild learning difficulties or those with anxiousness around school. I know the programme has had many funding cuts over the last years and it has already been operating on a shoestring budget. What plans, if any, has Tusla for expanding or enhancing that service or is there any way of increasing funding to that programme? What can this committee do to support it? I believe that the school completion programme does not get enough recognition and it does a lot of valuable work.

My next query is similar to Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's question. What role can schools play in helping children who suffer from anxiety, even at primary school level? There is a huge increase in this and, with all due respect to teachers, I do not believe they understand the level of worry that some children have when coming in to school. It could be considered a minor thing, but it is a major deal to the children. The school where my own two children go, for example, does a lot of work on mindfulness. The school has mindfulness Tuesdays when there is no homework and pupils have to do an activity that is not related to technology. It is a small thing but those kinds of steps get children talking about it. Do the witnesses have any experiences or examples of that?

I support Ms McCafferty's point on the home school community liaison, HSCL, teachers not being social workers and counsellors. This is an excellent point. They are already doing a very difficult job and they should not be asked to take on that role.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Would Mr. Noel Kelly or Ms Maria Tobin like to respond?

Mr. Noel Kelly

I will take the first question posed by Deputy Funchion about the school completion programme and I will share a little bit of information with the committee. There are 124 school completion programmes around the State serving 700 schools. These are predominantly DEIS schools but we also have some non-DEIS schools that feed in to DEIS schools. This scheme has been in place since 2002. It followed on from its predecessors the 8-15 early school leaver initiative and the stay in school initiative. The school completion programme currently has funding of €24.7 million per annum - and as the Deputy has correctly said, between 2010 and 2011 when the austerity cuts hit there was a 25% cutback in budget - so it has come from a budget of some €32 million. There has been stability and since it came in to Tusla we have managed to stop the gap so the funding has remained stable.

We are very fortunate that our parent department, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, has managed to generate a fairly significant funding increase for Tusla. There are multiple demands on that funding, but as part of our budget bid this year one of our demands was for an increase of 5% of funding towards school completion. The budget has arrived in Tusla now and we are working on it internally. I am confident that we will get an increased allocation for next year. We have to recognise that a commitment has been made to the new schools that have come in to the DEIS programme and that they must be included in the school completion programme from September 2018. Some of the increase in our funding will have to go towards including those schools but I am certainly optimistic. It is a very small increase in funding, but it is a start. It is one of the matters we spoke about with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone.

There is significant reform under way in terms of school completion, such as a very significant continuing professional development programme, similar to the home school liaison programme CPD, because there had not been CPD within school completion for some time.

School completion staff had six days of continuing professional development, CPD, last year. There are also some significant issues around governance that we must address. That is under way at the moment and I am confident in that regard. Tusla is 100% committed to the programme. This sounds like a broken record, but I will say it again, I spent six years working in school completion and I can see the benefit of the programme. All of the programmes working seamlessly together really do make a difference to children. School completion is primarily targeted at children who are most at risk, or children who may have dropped out of the school system. It makes a real difference to children who are right on the margins. Our commitment is definitely to grow the scheme and, over the coming years, to try restore some of the funding that has been lost, especially as the State is now in a better economic situation.

Ms Maria Tobin

I will address the Deputy's question regarding the social work concern. This is something that comes up, and has come up more in the past, especially in Meitheal. We are responsible for induction CPD to newly appointed home school community liaison, HSCL, co-ordinators. As part of that induction we make it very clear to HSCL co-ordinators that they are experts in education. This is why the Department of Education and Skills invests this money to ensure that teachers who are released from teaching duty can reach out to families to give them guidance and support, around the parents' own education and their child's education. When Meitheal was set up as part of Tusla's partnership and family support network we saw this as an opportunity to support the community aspect of the HSCL co-ordinator role. They have always had a role around linking parents to supports within the community. In the CPD for newly appointed co-ordinators we say that their role is to refer, refer, refer - unless it is an educational issue. Then the co-ordinator has the expertise to offer the support.

With regard to Meitheal, sometimes the school may be the first place where additional needs are identified. With educational needs, be they behavioural or learning support, sometimes there are additional needs and particularly with behavioural issues in school or with school refusal. Additional support may be needed in these cases and they need a wraparound support service within the community. From this point of view, Meitheal is a vehicle for co-ordinators to actually access that support so that the group of professionals who can best support that family can be brought around the table. This is with complete consultation with the parent because the parent must agree to this process. It cannot happen without the permission of the parent. The professionals can then engage. The HSCL co-ordinator is part of that team, but only part of the team with regard to educational support. If the primary need is an educational one, the HSCL co-ordinator may take the lead on the plan to support the family. If the primary need is not an educational one they will be part of the Meitheal team but certainly not as social workers. It is important the HSCL co-ordinators maintain their role as educators and experts in that area. We support that and we would always fight to maintain it. It is, however, very much a co-operative approach. Meitheal is about co-operation, linking and engaging, with support from other family support services in the community. I hope this clarifies the matter for the committee.

Ms Maeve McCafferty

I will further explain how teachers and HSCL teachers are addressing well-being, social and emotional difficulties in children. This is done through the curriculum subject of social, personal and health education, SPHE. In DEIS schools there are two excellent programmes - the incredible years teaching management programme and the friends first volunteer programme - that focus on well-being and mental health. In addition, teachers are doing yoga, mindfulness and meditation with their pupils in the classroom. Deputy Funchion is correct that it is one of the key issues we hear about from all teachers, not just from HSCL teachers, around the increasing anxiety and mental health issues in very young children. Together with that, test anxiety is a particular issue and it is not helped that there is an increasing emphasis on standardised testing, and that standardised tests are being used to determine resources. It increases the stakes; it puts more pressure on parents, teachers and everybody. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment is restructuring the primary school curriculum.

Submissions have come in and they strongly suggest that there needs to be more emphasis on well-being, which is one of the biggest topics at present.

Ms Jenny Gannon

Parents trust the home-school liaison teachers and they will sit down with us and tell us about what is causing anxiety or what the main triggers are for children. We have more time than the class teacher or the principal, who have many other things to look after during their day. We can liaise with classroom teachers and if a child gives a sign that they need to go outside for a moment, do their breathing technique or go to the "quieten down" space in a room we can intervene at an early point in their anxiety trip. The existing programmes also help in this regard. The HSCL also feeds into care teams within schools and into the overall school support structure and we can help inform on where anxiety is more likely. Our relationship with parents also helps the process.

Ms Chris Kelly

In the stakeholder engagement as part of the review of DEIS, well-being was mentioned quite a lot. There are a number of goals in the DEIS plan around well-being and priority will be given to ensuring a year's training is provided to all DEIS schools at the beginning.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

There are 416 home-school community liaison teachers in 530 schools. Can the officials from the Department indicate what is the maximum number? Does it mean home-school liaison teachers share schools? The education welfare officer is integrated into the system but what is the maximum number of schools of which an education welfare officer is in charge? How does it work? Is there an overload and, if there is, what are the plans to address it?

I commend the work on a successful transition from primary to second level but if a student breaks a generational cycle in their family, gets to leaving certificate and does well, what happens next? Do we need to look at supports for the transition from second level to third level? Do the witnesses agree that children are slipping through at this stage and, if so, are there any plans to address it? The goal is to get children to benefit from a school education but with our one-size-fits-all curriculum it is hard to captivate a child. Is this something we need to examine? Do we need to look at the apprenticeship scheme in Germany as an option?

Is there any language barrier in this area? We have very rich, diversified, international communities in our schools and this is something we must treasure and embrace. Are there enough supports for teachers? One might need to explain to a family that both the parents and children can benefit from this but what supports are provided where there is a language barrier?

What do the teachers feel about DEIS inspections? Have they experienced them? Has the Department gathered any data about what might be working well or what supports and resources may be lacking?

Mr. Noel Kelly

I will start with the question on the statutory educational welfare service. This service came into Tusla in 2014 when the National Educational Welfare Board ceased to exist. The service struggled during the time of the National Educational Welfare Board because of the recruitment embargo and when staff left, they were not replaced. When the service came into Tusla in January 2016, we had just over 60 educational welfare officers, EWOs. By the end of 2017, we will have 90 - an increase of 50% - which is not massive but which is significant. We have approximately 4,000 schools so members can do the maths themselves. We were working at an average of 70 schools per EWO. By the end of this year, however, it will be down to below 50 and our intention is to reduce it incrementally in the coming years. By the end of 2018, I would like it to be, at most, 40 per EWO.

We work across a large expanse of schools and we are not meeting needs early enough. We work through a referrals system but we are not able to get to referrals quickly enough. We have to give priority to students who do not have places in schools, who have been expelled from school or who have special needs that prevent them from accessing places in schools. I would like to get to children before the 20 days from when they are referred but, unfortunately, we do not have the capacity to do that. There are 120 education welfare officers in Northern Ireland and, using that figure as a comparison, we would need 300 to really run the service. I am pleased with the support within Tusla. We are getting the support and the extra staff to grow the team incrementally. We are gathering good data and are able to identify the areas in which new staff are needed. In north Dublin, for example, particularly the area around Balbriggan, we are allocating extra staff because the population there is growing and there are different needs and, as the Acting Chairman noted, different cultures.

The Acting Chairman also asked about apprenticeships. I attended school in the 1960s and 1970s. When one finished primary school, one was guided to the academic school or the vocational school. People made a choice at that stage and many of my friends went to vocational schools. They have done a lot better than I have because they learned trades and have set up their own businesses. We have to value different forms of education and there is too much emphasis on the academic element. It has been said that the Irish workforce is overly qualified and that people with third-level degrees are working in McDonalds or Tesco. This is not necessary so we have to value different approaches. The FETAC scheme has been a fantastic development in that young people can now get into third-level education through multiple routes. I refer, for example to plc courses, by means of which they work their way up to degree level. We have to have multiple points of entry but if a young person wants to make a choice, the alternatives - as is the case in many other countries - should be available.

Ms Maria Tobin

There was a question on the number of HSCL co-ordinators. There are clustering arrangements between schools. At a national level, we look at feeder primary schools for local post-primary schools. If they exist, we would have one HSCL co-ordinator shared between two primary schools and these would link with the co-ordinator in the post-primary school. These decisions are based on the level of disadvantage and the enrolment numbers for the schools in question. The Department of Education and Skills looks at the deprivation index in determining the allocation of supports for schools. Nevertheless, we would certainly welcome the allocation of additional HSCL co-ordinators because it would be wonderful to see, particularly if the funding permitted. Not all children in DEIS primary schools will transition to a DEIS post-primary school. As a result, there is every chance that a child who has been supported in primary school will go into a large school aged 12 and there will be no HSCL or support to follow the child and ensure that he or she makes a successful transition. I am a former guidance counsellor and I believe that successful transition involves a full year, not just getting a child from one school to another. It would involve giving continual support to the family and the child throughout the first year because children are very vulnerable at this time.

As Tusla education and welfare services, we have concerns about attendance and drop-out in first year. It can be the start of a very slippery slope and impact on retention going forward.

Ms Maeve McCafferty

It is not that I have a comment on the language barrier, but more the cultural barrier. We have also heard back from our home school community liaison, HSCL, teachers that some non-national parents are not comfortable with the practice of somebody coming into their home. It is just not something that would be in their own culture. In that event we would say it should be permitted to have the visitations at school. Obviously we recognise the importance of going into the home, but where the need is there it should be all right to have them in the school.

Ms Aisling Browne

I wish to address the point about the language barrier. It certainly is an issue, and it is something we come across almost on a daily basis when we are out and about working with parents. As teachers, we are very creative by nature. If we are trying to talk to or to explain something to a parent and there is a language barrier, we will try everything we can to get our message across. I have been in homes where I have used Google to try to communicate something important.

However, there is no provision to employ interpreters. In our school, interpreters are paid to be there. For example, if there is an important meeting about a child's progress or if there is a concern, the school will pay for an interpreter in order that nothing is lost in translation and we are sure that the parent is fully informed and understands the key message.

Whatever language we speak, our role is to help and support all parents and another very important thing is that international parents feel that they are welcome in the school. We are lucky in the junior school in that we have an English as an additional language, EAL, teacher. That is Ms Mary Lenihan, who is here with us today. In the senior school they do not but we run international days and work together to involve those parents in the school as well. For the children, the important thing is understanding and accepting.

However, it is a major issue and is definitely a barrier. It concerns the funding, because the cost of an interpreter for even a 30-minute meeting is huge. Schools will do it for the good of the child, because schools always do it, but it is something that definitely needs to be taken into consideration.

Ms Chris Kelly

I would like to address the allocation. As Ms Tobin said, the allocation is based on the level of disadvantage in the school and the number of targeted students. Consequently, in some schools where there are smaller enrolments, one will cluster the schools in order that they meet that level. We would normally say 100 targeted pupils per HSCL. At present, there is no plan to increase that but under the delivery of equal opportunity in schools, DEIS, action plan, various provisions, including the HSCL, are being looked at. We are looking at reclustering HSCL as well, for better alignment with the school completion programme, SCP, and other school clustering arrangements.

As for supporting transitions, a key goal under the DEIS plan is supporting transitions at every level, including from post-primary to third level and further education. One of the actions in this regard is that there would be formal arrangements with HSCL, guidance counsellors, further education providers and access officers at third level to ensure that transfer programmes and transitioning are improved and streamlined for students who may not be able to do it on their own.

On the question of what is working well, as I said earlier the monitoring and evaluation framework we are trying to develop aims to look at all the individual components. We know from research already on DEIS that it has had a very positive impact. What we do not know is what individual pieces of DEIS are causing that, whether it is the suite of programmes or individual components of it. We need to look at that. However, we do know from the evaluation to date, conducted by the Educational Research Centre, ERC and by our own inspectorate, that DEIS is working overall.

Mr. Noel Kelly

I am probably the least informed here, but the Deputy asked about delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, inspections. From the engagement we have with the inspectorate at Tusla level, there has certainly been a fairly significant change from the way inspections would have been previously. Previously, inspections were very much about fault-finding. Inspections now have become much more about support. They are about finding where the weaknesses are and enabling and supporting schools to intervene to address them. The inspectorate is seen as a critical friend now rather than just a critic, as it would have been in the past. The people who are in the schools might be better able to explain what it feels like, because it is still quite intimidating. I know this because I have been chair of the board of a school, and it is quite a challenge. It is a big issue for a school because we have to get everything ready. All policies have to be ready, and one does not know who the inspectorate is going to call into or at what time, so teachers have to be fully ready and up to date. Certainly, however, in my recent experience of it as chair of the board of a school, I found it to be very positive and encouraging. The inspectorate picked up on areas of weakness in the school that need to be addressed and gave some very positive tips as to how to do that.

Ms Aisling Browne

I would like to add that in our school, we have not had a DEIS inspection. We were just wondering, if we are having one, could we get a date for it before we leave today?

(Interruptions).

Chairman

Thank you very much. Are there any final comments?

Mr. Martin Shiel

I wish to follow on, if I may, from what Ms Kelly has said. The State itself has invested €190 million in DEIS. The Department of Education and Skills has put in €115 million of that sum. That is an additional €5 million for the remainder of this year. Some of that goes to additional psychologists to address the issue that was raised a few minutes ago, as well as additional home school community liaison, HSCL, posts, which were assigned to the new schools that were announced in the programme earlier in the year.

Deputy Fiona O'Loughlin resumed the Chair.

Chairman

Thank you, Deputy Martin, and my apologies for my long absence. Everything ran late in the Chamber although we were on time.

I will not go over old ground, because I am interested in looking back and reading the transcripts later to take in the debate and the engagement. I have no doubt that some recommendations came from it. That is what is really important from today's hearing with all of the witnesses and with comments from the members, that we have the opportunity to make recommendations on the scheme. It is an absolutely excellent one, but there are always ways of strengthening, improving and promoting, particularly concerning resources that are needed.

I am sure there was debate on the schools that do not have DEIS status but absolutely need to have the benefit of the HSCL scheme. That is really a key issue, because often in the same town we have schools that have DEIS status and schools that do not, but they are both dealing with levels of disadvantage. Moreover, we should not forget that in every single school there are levels of disadvantage, and there are children and families who really need those extra supports through the HSCL scheme and the strengthening families programme.

That came out very clearly in the presentation that I saw with Mr. O'Donovan and Mr. Leeson, and among the teachers and schools that were involved. One of the principals spoke about the needs of their own school, and I could not have agreed more in the case of that particular school. Two thirds of the principal's time was taken up with issues that need to be addressed by the HSCL. If there is an appeal or a recommendation that we could make, apart from all the other elements, it is that we absolutely need to have more of the schools that deserve it being given DEIS status. It is important not to forget those schools that may never be in the DEIS programme, but still have children who are suffering. They need all our help and support.

On behalf of all the committee, I thank all the representatives for attending and for their engagement. It was very insightful and informative. I know the members learned a lot, and I know I have more to learn when I read the transcripts later on. If there is anything that they would like to add to the debate, please feel free to send it on to the members after the meeting. It will be circulated to all the members, and we will do our best to include it in the final report where we will be making recommendations to the Minister. We will have an extra session now with the competitors who presented at the WorldSkills competition, in which SOLAS were involved.

I understand they are going to the Tánaiste's office. They will probably be back with us soon, so I suggest we suspend for ten minutes. Perhaps we might check with the Tánaiste's office on the timing. If we need to suspend for longer, we will. It is very important that we have the opportunity to speak to the witnesses and congratulate them. Seven gold medals is fantastic. I suggest we go into private session now.

The joint committee went into private session at 6 p.m. and resumed in public session at 6.18 p.m.