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Joint Committee on Education and Skills debate -
Tuesday, 21 Nov 2017

Dáil na nÓg Delegate Report 2015: Discussion

No. 6 on today's meeting is our engagement with delegates from Comhairle na nÓg. You are all welcome. I apologise for the first two parts of our meeting going on so long. We appreciate your patience. The purpose of this part of the meeting is to discuss with the delegates of Comhairle na nÓg the findings of the 2015 Dáil na nÓg delegate report and to examine the findings of the Comhairle na nÓg survey entitled, "So, how was school today?" The survey was referenced in our previous session and we took great delight in telling the witnesses that we would have first-hand experience from discussing the matter with Comhairle na nÓg delegates this evening.

On behalf of the committee, I wish to welcome Kate Lehane, Kate Lancaster-Ryan, Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald, Niamh Bakker, Craig Smith, Brigid O'Sullivan and Olive McGovern, who is the principal officer from the youth reform and citizen participation unit of the Department. When I was a member of Kildare County Council and mayor of the county I had considerable engagement with Kildare Comhairle na nÓg. It was always enjoyable and interesting. I am looking forward to the engagement. I will give everyone an opportunity to speak for a minute. You can say your name, where you are from and a little about your experience before we go to Ms McGovern. Then we will have the opportunity to speak to the members. The members may have some questions, which you can then respond to.

Before we continue, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If you are directed by myself, as Chairman, to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Any opening statements that you give to us, including the two we have received, will be published on our committee website after the meeting.

Ms Kate Lehane

My name is Kate and I am 17. I am from the Fingal Comhairle na nÓg. I have been on the comhairle for three years and on the national executive for two years.

Ms Kate Lancaster-Ryan

My name is Kate as well. I am the Sligo representative for Comhairle na nÓg. I have been on the Sligo comhairle for three years and on the national executive for two years. I am 18.

Where are you from, Kate?

Ms Kate Lancaster-Ryan

Sligo.

Sorry, I did not hear that.

Mr. Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald

My name is Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald. I am from Cork City Comhairle na nÓg. I have been a representative on comhairle for five years and on the national executive for a two-year term.

Ms Niamh Bakker

I am Niamh Bakker. I am the Laois representative on comhairle. I have been on Comhairle na nÓg for three years and on the national executive for two years. I am 18.

Mr. Craig Smith

My name is Craig Smith. I am a member of Waterford Comhairle na nÓg for three years and I have been on the national executive for two years. I am 17 years of age.

Ms Brigid O'Sullivan

My name is Brigid O'Sullivan. I am 17 years old. I have been on Cork County Comhairle na nÓg for three years and on the national executive for two years.

We have a good geographical balance. Ms McGovern, please make your opening statement.

Ms Olive McGovern

I will only say a few words as the young people will really hold the floor.

I wish to respond to the item in the committee letter on how the Department implements the delegate report from each Dáil na nÓg. In each Dáil na nÓg an independent report writer produces a report of the deliberations and findings of the young people. Following each Dáil na nÓg, the Department establishes a steering committee of the relevant adult policy-makers to support the Comhairle na nÓg executive to implement the recommendations of the young people as reported in the Dáil na nÓg delegate report. The process for the 2015 Dáil na nÓg report and all previous sessions was the same as the process we will have next month for 2017.

Since the theme was education in this instance, the following committee members were brought to work with the Department: Professor Dympna Devine, from UCD; Dr. Paul Downes from UCD, Clive Byrne from the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals; Jacqueline Ní Fhearghusa from the Department of Education and Skills Inspectorate; Carmel Corrigan, independent research; and Carmel Duggan, independent research. The committee also involved young people from the national executive along with staff from our Department and the participation team.

The group works as a steering committee to provide guidance and support to the young people on the national executive to give expert advice and get buy-in from relevant organisations where necessary and to attend meetings and answer questions raised by the national executive if required. That is by way of responding to the queries in correspondence from the committee regarding structures and systems which the Department has in place to support the young people on an ongoing basis. The rest of the time this evening is for the young people themselves.

I thank Ms McGovern. Mr. Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald will now give the committee an outline of the survey and the results.

Mr. Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald

My name is Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald and I am the Cork city representative on the Comhairle na nÓg national executive. Comhairle na nÓg is a network of local councils for children and young people aged 12 to 17 years to give them a voice on issues which affect them. The Comhairle na nÓg national executive has one representative from each of the 31 groups around the country. They work on recommendations from Dáil na nÓg and make changes for people in those areas. We meet monthly and have a two-year term of office.

I am joined by Ms Niamh Bakker from Laois, Ms Kate Lehane from Fingal, Ms Kate Lancaster-Ryan from Sligo, and Mr. Craig Smith and Ms Brigid O'Sullivan from the Comhairle in Waterford and County Cork who will discuss the results of the survey.

They will present the results of a survey that is unprecedented in size in its field. It was undertaken by some 3,242 people around the country. It is not possible to present all the data today but we will give its most important findings. My colleagues will highlight some of the findings which we felt was most significant about how young people are taught and how they learn in the classroom but members should be aware that there is much more data available. The survey asked 59 questions and the responses were analysed by gender, school year and the type of school. We urge all committee members to read the full report which was officially launched on 6 November at Firhouse Community College by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone.

I will now hand over to Ms Bakker who will discuss the first part of the survey.

Ms Niamh Bakker

My name is Niamh Bakker and I am the Laois representative on the Comhairle na nÓg national executive. The findings of our survey was published recently as a report entitled "So how was school today?". It is important that the committee understands background to this research and where it came from. In 2014, at the Comhairle na nÓg national showcase, 500 young people voted that the areas of their lives in which they least had a say were school and education. As a result, school and education became the theme for Dáil na nÓg in 2015, where delegates voted that what happens in the classroom should be the priority question to be dealt with by the national executive. During the executive's two-year term, it developed a survey to explore how students are taught and how they learn in the classroom. It was assisted by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the Department of Education and Skills, researchers from the School of Education in UCD and a steering committee of educational experts. The survey was completed by 3,242 young people at the 31 Comhairle na nÓg AGMs in late 2016. This is a huge number of respondents and is one of the most significant surveys carried out to date on young people's educational experiences. Ms Kate Lehane will now discuss the results from section 1, which looks at pupils' experience of teaching and learning in schools.

Ms Kate Lehane

My name is Kate Lehane and I am the Fingal representative on the Comhairle na nÓg national executive. Our survey asked students about their experience of teaching and learning in school. One student from County Waterford asked, "Have teachers been more energetic, enthusiastic and less monotone?", although this only applies to certain teachers because some teachers already do this and make learning easier. Some 76% of students feel that other students get more attention than them. This is worrying as only 24% of students are satisfied with the attention distributed around the classroom. One student from Monaghan said: "Not all students are the same. One size does not fit all." This sums up perfectly the fact that fewer than 50% of students say they learn best when they read from textbooks and only 30% of students say that teachers make learning interesting and fun.

Another issue arising from the survey is that only 36% of students agree that teachers allow students to explain themselves without conflict. Our survey asked students if they could change the teaching of three subjects in their school, which three would they pick. Maths came out as number one, followed by Irish and then English. This is a concerning but very important finding as they are the core subjects taught in Irish schools. However, not all the findings were negative. One first year student from County Cork said: "The teachers in my school are brilliant." This shows that there are teachers doing it right with positive results, but we need to make it more widespread.

Kate Lancaster-Ryan will now discuss section 2 on feelings about school.

Ms Kate Lancaster-Ryan

My name is Kate Lancaster-Ryan and I am the Sligo representative on the Comhairle na nÓg national executive. Two thirds of students think there is too much emphasis on exams. This is a worryingly high figure. However, 42% think that exams are the best way to test learning. One student from County Clare said: "There should be less emphasis on exams. Students' progress should be individual and not compared to others." Some 64% of students wish there was more project work, something we all feel could be improved on, perhaps by the addition of more project work in the curriculum.

Unsurprisingly, exams were the biggest source of stress for students. Over half think that exams take over their lives in schools. Exams are particularly stressful for third, fifth and sixth year students. Of those who indicated a preference when asked, "Do students have a say in schools?", responses were split evenly between "Yes" and "No", which shows that some schools are getting it right while others still have changes to make. Finally, a transition year student from County Cork said: "I think teachers should take our opinions on board because as young people our ideas are often new, relevant and innovative when it comes to things that affect us. We are, after all, the students."

Ms Bakker will now discuss section 3 on young people's views on services and IT in schools.

Ms Niamh Bakker

Section 3 relates to students' views on services and IT in schools. I will first discuss levels of satisfaction for support services in schools which looks at matters such as the availability of career guidance, the availability and quality of counselling services and mental health supports and the amount and quality of learning support services. Overall, boys are more satisfied than girls with support services in schools. However, only 41% of students are satisfied with the quality of counselling and mental health support.

On IT, we looked at IT facilities, teachers' ability to use IT in the classroom and whether IT helped students to learn. Some 88% of respondents think that IT in the classroom is not a waste of time, while 66% think IT helps them to learn. On the availability of these services, one student in County Dublin said: "We need more access to computers and online learning resources." This suggests that an increase in funding for IT and technology-based support in schools will make learning more enjoyable and more effective for students.

On behalf of all the students who took part in this survey, we hope that the committee will consider our findings when making any further decisions which directly affect us. I thank the committee for listening.

Mr. Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald

I thank my colleagues, Niamh Bakker, Kate Lehane and Kate Lancaster-Ryan for their excellent presentations of some of our key findings from the survey.

The purpose of this survey was to hear directly from young people about the way in which they are taught and how they learn in school. We had a huge response rate, from 3,242 young people, but we want to go further. We want our voice to make a difference in the classroom. We want the key messages from the research to be listened to and taken on board by schools and teachers, to make an impact beyond the survey and contribute to a broader discussion about the education system in Ireland. We are delighted that several positive developments have followed from the report of the survey, including the ongoing co-operation between the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Department of Education and Skills to include the voice of children in the school inspection process. Another exciting opportunity is that members of the Comhairle na nÓg national executive have been invited to present at the inspectors' conference in early 2018. A letter and infographic poster has been sent to all participating schools summarising the report's key findings. We will have the opportunity to report the work on this survey and show the video of the launch to delegates at Dáil na nÓg on 6 December.

I thank everyone here for listening and I urge them to read the full report which contains additional information about the experience of young people in Irish classrooms and schools.

We ask members to take note of the key findings of our research and to look for ways to bring them into their decision-making processes. The report is currently available on the Comhairle na nÓg website and we hope members will all join us in spreading the word by linking with us on social media and using the hashtag #HowWasSchool. Our contact details can also be found on the last page of our presentation. We thank members very much for listening.

I thank each of our witnesses. I wish that some of the adults we have in here would take the same approach to making a presentation and sticking to a good timeline. They have done very well.

I hope our witnesses had the opportunity to listen to our earlier discussion, which was about the possible reform of the leaving certificate. A lot of what they addressed in their presentations reflected issues that we were discussing. This is absolutely incredible work. I will now ask the members if they wish to ask questions or make comments.

I will be brief. I congratulate all the witnesses, including Ms Olive McGovern. It is great to see young people getting involved. There are too many passengers in school who just sit there and do not try to contribute, so it is great to see our witnesses' civic-mindedness coming out. They are all going to make great politicians some day. It is great to see the contribution they are making.

I was curious about the 59 questions that were asked. How did Comhairle na nÓg come up with those questions? It is good to hear Mr. Hugh Fitzgerald talk about the departmental co-operation between the Departments of Children and Youth Affairs and Education and Skills. It is very important that the views of Comhairle na nÓg are listened to and obviously this committee will do so. I welcome the news of the presentation that Comhairle na nÓg will be making to the inspectors' conference and of the video on 6 December. There is no point in doing surveys, with all the attendant work for the witnesses and Dáil na nÓg, unless they are actually going to go somewhere. The Chair of this committee is mindful of that and will encourage this committee to help in bringing forward Comhairle na nÓg's views. I thank the witnesses very much for coming in and giving their contribution. They are all extremely articulate and very accomplished.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. They waited a very long time to give it. It is interesting that they appeared after the discussion on the possible reform of the leaving certificate. I completely agree with some of the points made about project work or continuous assessment. We need to see far more of that in our secondary school system. Some of the findings in the report concerned very high anxiety levels, particularly among female students suffering from exam stress. Apart from reforming the leaving certificate system, what would the witnesses like to see regarding the availability of counselling in schools? What are their ideas around mental health and how we can be better at that at secondary school level?

Like my colleagues, I commend the witnesses. They are fine ambassadors for the youth of our country. Our country is in good hands with them coming along. I wish to raise one or two questions. Regarding the well-being of our students, I alert our witnesses to the fact that last September this committee published a report on promoting positive mental health in our schools, which contained some key recommendations. We have forwarded that on to the Minister for his consideration.

Comhairle na nÓg's report shows that less than half of students are satisfied with counselling and career guidance services at their schools. Was that due to the reduction in career guidance or the standard of services that was available? Apart from career guidance, is there a need for a completely separate counsellor in schools to deal with students' well-being and mental health?

I am curious as to whether the witnesses have noticed any change in teaching techniques in their own experience of schools from, say, first to sixth year. Is there more active learning as inspections are looking for that from teachers? Alternatively, is it a generational thing, whereby the new generation of teachers is very much focused on active learning? Finally, I am interested in the witnesses' thoughts on inspections. At the moment it is just a questionnaire that some years fill out, or that parents of some students fill out. I refer to the management leadership learning inspection, MLL. What are the witnesses' thoughts on what they would like students' contribution to inspections to be?

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I agreed with everything they said but there was one point that triggered a thought of my own struggles in schools with teachers and the experience of my daughters. Ms Lehane can correct me if I have picked this up wrongly but I believe she referred to a conflict with teachers when students try to explain, contribute or question. Can Ms Lehane speak a little bit more about that question and what it is about? In a school system it is usually frustrating when teachers are too afraid to leave the curriculum, even for a moment, to have dialogue and conversation. I know that I learn through participation and conversation and there was never much room for that in school. This always caused great conflict, with teachers telling students to be quiet or perceiving them to be disruptive because they wanted to engage in a conversation. The witnesses might speak a little more about the issue of conflict.

Before I hand back to the witnesses, I would like to ask about one point. This committee has submitted a number of reports and recommendations to the Minister regarding different aspects of education. Deputy Catherine Martin referred to our report on positive mental health. We recently heard from witnesses on healthy eating and managing a healthy life in schools. As part of that, we discussed the presence of vending machines in schools, and the fact that they contain chocolate, crisps and things like that. We also discussed the availability of drinking water in schools and how important that is. If that came up at any stage in Comhairle na nÓg's research, it would be interesting to hear a little bit about it.

Mr. Hugh Fitzgerald

The first question came from Deputy Madigan, and concerned about the 59 questions and from where they came. Those questions were formulated over the course of about a year via what Comhairle na nÓg might call its own method of sourcing ideas. We use placemats, that is, students attending a conference would write on the entire tablecloth. As such, students might not have been actively speaking but they were still actively writing. Those tablecloths were sent off for analysis, and from that analysis we noticed recurring ideas. Certain questions, on gender or types of school, for example, were obligatory. However, the core questions on the fleshy subject matter that is education came from those placemats and from the mandate we got from the people.

Ms Niamh Bakker

There was a question about the availability of counselling and mental health supports. The rate of people who were satisfied with the availability of mental health supports was quite low. To us, the solution is to put extra money into having a counsellor in a school. In many schools we have spoken to through our national executive members and our own comhairlí, counsellors are only present one or twice a week, which is not sufficient for a whole school with 1,000 students. Having a counsellor there constantly would be much more beneficial and the rate of satisfaction would go through the roof if people had more access to counselling and mental health support. Staffing is the main issue.

Ms Brigid O'Sullivan

I also wish to speak about mental health supports because it is something that is raised a lot in my own school and comhairle and with people of my own age. People are talking about it, especially if they go to the guidance counsellor in their own school. As well as that, awareness of what is out there is important. In the case of people who are not satisfied with the support services in their own school, some of that is attributable to simple things. A student may not get along with his or her guidance counsellor, for example, as their personalities just do not match. However, there are lots of support services outside school and schools should make more of an effort to make people aware of those mental health supports and how to go about getting them.

From talking to people and on the basis of the guidance counselling provided in my school, I am aware that it is sometimes about the quality of support people receive or the days on which guidance counsellors might be in school. As Ms Bakker mentioned, some counsellors might only be in schools for half the week. Some of it is just about simple personality clashes because it is being dealt with on a one-to-one basis and it is really important that people know about all the support services.

Would Mr. Smith or anyone else like to comment?

Mr. Craig Smith

Deputy Martin asked if we had noticed any changes in teaching techniques in our time in school. A lot of teachers in my school use the Magenta active learning principles in the classroom. We noticed that they change the desks in their classrooms into small groups and everyone can see the board as a result. Teachers also use something called Kahoot!, which is a quiz platform whereby a teacher can make up a quiz on the computer and it will produce a code for the quiz. We can join in on our smartphones and answer the questions. Personally, I have noticed changes in teaching techniques and methods in my six years in secondary school.

Ms Kate Lehane

I think it is a generational thing. I have seen changes but it is mainly with younger teachers. I recognise that some of the older or more seasoned teachers try new things but they are not entirely comfortable with it. Their usual method is to say "Learn this". I have young teachers who try something new every week. I have one teacher who asks us what we want to learn at the start of every week. We all feel that we enjoy that a lot better than being told what we are going to learn. It helps me and the other students enjoy the classroom more. I see it more with younger teachers, those that are new to the profession, whereas with older teachers it is very much a case of "Learn this off by heart" and "Do this" or "Do that". I see a change but mainly through younger teachers.

Ms Kate Lancaster-Ryan

I found as well that younger teachers would have new ideas and they would try to do active learning and new things. However, I think the curriculum is very much focused on rote learning for exams and then the younger teachers get really stressed out. We stop the new things and just start learning things by heart. I think teachers try but it is restricted by the way the curriculum is set up. Of course, that is my personal opinion.

Does Mr. O'Reilly-Fitzgerald wish to comment?

Mr. Hugh O'Reilly-Fitzgerald

On the same question, I have certainly seen an increase in active learning. On the flip side, I also have seen an increase in teachers understanding that they are supposed to be implementing active learning but also I have definitely seen a push-back in that regard. When an inspector visits the school, I would notice that all of the tables were arranged, as Craig has said, in groups of four - two facing two. When the inspector leaves, they are promptly put back. Essentially, what I am trying to get across is that perhaps there would be a generation of old-school teachers, as Kate Lehane pointed out, who are not entirely willing to change. It is difficult, without surprise inspections, to see whether any change is actually being made, unfortunately.

That is interesting. Does Ms O'Sullivan want to come back in?

Ms Brigid O'Sullivan

I also want to talk about the same topic. In junior certificate, I found that my teachers made much more effort toward active learning and doing projects. This was especially the case with history, where we did a lot of projects to understand topic better. We are a great deal more restricted at leaving certificate. The junior certificate course runs from first year to third year but with the leaving certificate is covered in bulk over fifth and sixth year. It is a lot more rote learning and we are really restricted by the curriculum. I feel it is really not possible to do the same with both cycles. The curriculum would have to change because during junior certificate cycle we had a lot more time to delve into projects and things like that. For leaving certificate cycle, it is lot of learning, doing tests and then more learning.

Do members wish to make any final comments or seek clarifications? No. I thank all of the witnesses. It was interesting and insightful to listen to them describe the work they have done. It is incredible that they received so many responses. That is great credit to them, as is the fact that they are not going to let it rest there and that they are looking at so many other ways to engage other students. On behalf of the committee, I thank them for their time and energy and wish them well. They should keep up the good work. We look forward to hearing about their future patterns of work.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 December 2017.
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