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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2017

Paradise Papers: Chairman, Office of the Revenue Commissioners

We are here to discuss the taxation matters that arise from the publication of the Paradise Papers. I welcome Mr. Niall Cody, chairman, Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I wish to advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Cody and his team here. I invite Mr. Cody to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Niall Cody

I am accompanied by Ms Jeanette Doonan and Mr. Liam Gallagher.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make an opening statement. I am obliged to remind the committee that I am prevented by law, and specifically by section 851A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, from discussing the tax affairs of any taxpayer.

I welcome this opportunity to speak to the committee about Revenue's ongoing investigations into offshore matters. I will use the time available to provide a short briefing in the context of the recent media reports and allegations associated with what are known as the Paradise Papers.

Identifying and confronting non-compliance is a core element of Revenue's work. Tackling tax evasion is always high on our agenda. Revenue recognises the serious risk to the Exchequer arising from the use of offshore accounts and structures to evade tax. Among tax authorities worldwide we have been at the forefront in tackling this risk.

Over the years, Revenue has carried out a range of investigations targeting various offshore arrangements and structures used to hide undeclared income.

These investigations have encompassed offshore bank accounts and a wide range of financial and investment products, trusts and offshore structures, bogus non-resident accounts and life assurance products. The aggregate yield from this work is close to €2.9 billion.

Revenue's approach to tackling offshore evasion is recognised by the OECD as best practice and has been adopted by other tax authorities. Revenue was among the first to address offshore evasion in a structured and systematic way. In 2001, we set up a specific branch, the offshore assets group, that was dedicated to tackling offshore evasion. In 2003, a major investigation was launched into the use of offshore bank accounts and other financial products to evade tax resulting in the recovery of more than €1 billion. A separate investigation into the use of trusts and offshore structures is now substantially complete and has yielded more than €100 million.

In recent years, the international environment has changed very significantly and tax authorities worldwide now co-operate very closely in targeting those who seek to hide their profits or gains offshore. We are adapting and refocusing our compliance framework in response to these developments, in particular, the automatic exchange of information between jurisdictions under arrangements such as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, FATCA, which is an intergovernmental agreement to share financial account information with the United States of America, the DAC, which refers to a number of EU directives on administrative co-operation, and the OECD's common reporting standard, CRS, which provides tax authorities with greater visibility as regards the offshore assets and income of their residents.

With more information becoming available to Revenue through the new information exchange mechanisms, and against a background of closer co-operation between tax authorities worldwide, it became clear that it was no longer appropriate to allow tax defaulters whose default related to offshore matters to avail of the benefits of the voluntary disclosure regime. Significant changes were introduced in the 2016 Finance Act. Since May 2017, tax defaulters who use offshore facilities to hide undeclared income, accounts or other assets can no longer make a qualifying disclosure. This means that such defaulters face penalties of up to 100% of the tax evaded, publication in the quarterly list of tax defaulters and, potentially, criminal prosecution.

In advance of the May deadline, Revenue received 2,734 disclosures with a value of almost €84 million. These are now being analysed, cases profiled and interventions conducted, as appropriate. On 17 November, Revenue confirmed that following the deadline, a new inquiry is under way to identify and pursue taxpayers engaged in offshore tax evasion and avoidance.

It is fundamental to Revenue's way of doing business that we make the best use of all the data at our disposal to identify and tackle tax evasion. In keeping with this approach, we will home in on all of the data now becoming available to us under information exchange agreements to identify and pursue those who have attempted to use offshore accounts, structures or assets to evade or avoid their tax obligations. Data analytics is key to this work. We will use proprietary software to match the new data against Revenue's taxpayer records and then cross-check against the taxpayer's prior returns to determine whether all relevant income and assets have been fully and properly declared. The new data will also be used in Revenue's social network analysis and anomaly detection tools to identify risky cases from a compliance standpoint. Where issues are identified, they will be followed up with the appropriation Revenue intervention.

I can provide the committee with some of the guiding principles of Revenue's approach to tackling tax evasion and tax avoidance. Revenue will examine and investigate any case of suspected tax evasion. Where tax evasion is uncovered, Revenue will apply the maximum sanctions and deterrents, including penalties, publication in the quarterly list of tax defaulters and, potentially, criminal prosecution. Should it emerge that an Irish-based financial institution has facilitated tax evasion, Revenue will investigate whether such an institution has failed to disclose information to Revenue that should have been disclosed. If there is evidence of aggressive tax avoidance contrary to Irish legislation, Revenue will investigate thoroughly and will seek to recover the tax avoided, together with interest and avoidance surcharges. Where appropriate, Revenue will share information with other relevant tax administrations under existing legal frameworks.

Revenue has responded to previous media releases regarding bank accounts held with the HSBC Swiss and to documents leaked by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, ICIJ, in LuxLeaks and the Panama Papers, by identifying individuals and entities associated with Ireland, profiling cases, and making the appropriate intervention to determine whether there has been any evasion or avoidance of Irish tax. We will do likewise in terms of information associated with the Paradise Papers and, while our examination is at an early stage, I can confirm that Revenue has taken the following actions to date.

On 13 November 2017, Revenue wrote to both the director of the ICIJ and to the editor of The Irish Times, asking them to provide information from the leaked documents that may be relevant in Revenue's continuing work to tackle offshore tax evasion. On 15 November, The Irish Times responded. It advised that its coverage of this issue arises in the context of its involvement with the ICIJ, whose long-standing policy is not to provide material directly to investigating authorities. We have not, as yet, received a response from the ICIJ.

On 20 November 2017, Revenue wrote to a number of financial institutions. Revenue sought, among other things, disclosure of any information, particulars or records not already disclosed to Revenue on foot of High Court orders, which the institutions had access to or the ability to access, involving either the opening of an account or the depositing of funds by Irish persons in an offshore operation owned or partially owned by the institutions, including entities that have been liquidated. This request was for voluntary provision and was made in response to the spirit of comments stated to have been made by the institutions concerned in a recent Dáil debate. The request did not involve the use of any of the powers available to Revenue.

In line with the approach taken in dealing with previous such information releases, Revenue has already carried out an initial analysis of the available information. Our analysis indicated 71 entities that may have an association with Ireland as well as the 603 addresses and 802 individuals that the ICIJ has associated with Ireland. These entities are mainly incorporated in the Isle of Man, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands. The identified individuals and entities will be profiled using our own systems and open sources. In this, Revenue will also continue to collaborate on intelligence with tax authorities around the world and to share information under existing legal frameworks to identify beneficial owners and establish the role of intermediaries and institutions in facilitating offshore tax evasion.

The committee's letter of invitation stated that the committee wants to examine how revelations in the Paradise Papers impact on the future administration and collection of corporate tax receipts. Until Revenue has fully examined the available information, it is not possible to state whether there are any implications for corporation tax receipts having regard to existing legislation or any future legislation implementing the OECD's base erosion and profit sharing, BEPS, recommendations. In recent years, the issue of international tax avoidance by multinational enterprises has been the subject of considerable scrutiny internationally, particularly in the BEPS project but also in recent EU initiatives. These initiatives are borne out of a consensus that tackling aggressive tax planning arrangements by multinationals, including those designed to take advantage of mismatches in tax rules between two or more countries, requires international co-operation.

Revenue has been an active participant in discussions both at OECD level and EU level, where new initiatives and legislation designed to tackle corporate tax avoidance internationally have been agreed. Some of the agreed BEPS measures have been, or are in the process of being, reflected in Irish law. The implementation of the EU anti-tax avoidance directives to timelines set out in the directives will give a co-ordinated effect to specific BEPS actions across the EU. Mr. Seamus Coffey compiled a paper entitled Review of the Corporation Tax Code. In his review he made recommendations about the implementation of the remaining OECD recommendations. In the context of Budget 2018, the Minister for Finance published an update on Ireland's tax strategy and announced a consultation on the Coffey review. The consultation is open until 30 January 2018.

In summary, to the extent that the Paradise Papers identify any individual or entity associated with Ireland with possible Irish tax issues in respect of tax evasion or aggressive tax avoidance, Revenue will examine the cases and intervene as appropriate. Individuals or entities who have engaged in offshore evasion now face substantial penalties, publication in the quarterly list of tax defaulters and, potentially, criminal prosecution.

Revenue will also work in close co-operation with other tax administrations in the framework of the OECD's joint international task force on shared intelligence and co-operation, JITSIC, to address issues raised by the Paradise Papers. Revenue will, as appropriate, share information under existing legal frameworks. Revenue has a proven track record of significant achievement in acting against offshore evasion and avoidance. We are determined to take effective action to identify and bring to account tax defaulters who seek to hide undeclared accounts, income or assets offshore and to evade or avoid their tax responsibilities. I will answer any questions raised by the committee on these issues subject, of course, to taxpayer confidentiality constraints.

I thank Mr. Cody for his presentation and call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

I thank Mr. Cody for his presentation. I wish to ask about AIB or any financial institution that is using subsidiaries or giving advice on how to use offshore structures to avoid tax. What has Revenue done or what can it do to deal with that?

Mr. Niall Cody

As I outlined in my statement, we started a process around offshore accounts and evasion back in 2003. We have instigated 40 High Court orders compelling the financial institutions based in Ireland to provide us with details of Irish residents who opened accounts. We went through that whole process and got considerable information from financial institutions based in the State. Even before that, the whole issue of the bogus non-resident accounts was the focus of the Committee of Public Accounts in an investigation that started in 1999. The challenge around whether financial institutions encourage or advise people to open a bogus non-resident account or divert money offshore is getting proof. We have pursued High Court orders to get the information and are fairly satisfied that we got it.

The challenge then became subsidiaries based in the Isle of Man. One of the financial institutions actually passed a special resolution to encourage the Isle of Man operation to provide us with the information. However, when it came to it with the Isle of Man company, the matter ended up in the Isle of Man courts, and the court said it should not provide that information. It is in the light of the information in the Paradise Papers and the comments made by the financial institutions that we have now taken the step to write to them. We have all heard the comments that were made. We have asked them to provide us with information that is within their control or the control of subsidiaries or entities, liquidated or not. We await the outcome of that.

If they do not give the information to Revenue, what do we do then?

Mr. Niall Cody

We will consider our next steps. The situation, as I outlined in my opening remarks, has changed considerably since we sought the information originally. Given the level of tax information exchange agreements with, for example, the Isle of Man, we will now be able to ask the Isle of Man for information, in conjunction with its authorities. This is the case for any of the other locations with which we have tax information exchange agreements.

Is Mr. Cody satisfied that the new arrangements will allow that to happen?

Mr. Niall Cody

Legally, the issue is around the timeline in which information has to be held under the other jurisdictions. I understand in the case of the Isle of Man it is ten years. We are at that start of a process. We have had discussions about the various competent authority roles in respect of exchange of information. We are actively looking at following up on that type of information. It is a process that has started. One of the interesting things about the Paradise Papers is the colour behind the releases. We have not got the full information, obviously. We have seen what the newspapers have published and accessed the lists but they have published limited information.

I had better move on because my time will run out. One of the things the Paradise Papers reveal is that in the case of Apple, following the moves to close down the double Irish at the end of 2013, the intangible assets allowance was increased to 100%. Then it moved some of its subsidiaries based here to Jersey or the Isle of Man. I cannot remember which but it was one of those tax havens. It had advice to the effect that this would allow it to avoid tax as the Jersey entity would sell the assets to the Irish-based company which could claim that as a cost against which it would get an allowance and would pay no tax. That was perfectly fitted. Apple engineered it in such a way that its tax liability was exactly the same as it had been when it was using the double Irish structure. It could set the price at whatever it wanted such that its tax liability did not change. That is clearly tax avoidance and Apple is clearly manipulating the price at which one subsidiary is selling an intellectual asset to another subsidiary to ensure it pays no tax. Is there anything we can do about that? It is very obviously a manipulation of the tax code.

Mr. Niall Cody

As I outlined in my opening comments, I am precluded from commenting on the tax affairs of any individual taxpayer.

In general, then, if it is obvious that an entity is using transfer pricing mechanisms around intellectual property to set the price at which one subsidiary sells something to another subsidiary, exploiting allowances in the tax code to do so, such that there is no additional tax liability and it is clearly a manipulation, is there anything we can do about it?

Mr. Niall Cody

In general terms, transfer pricing is a core element of the international tax system, the arm's length principle and the rules that are set out. Capital allowances are also a common feature of the tax system. The idea of setting any value they like on their intellectual property and transfer pricing is not the position. They are bound to have arm's length principles set out and documentary evidence to support that. It is subject to review by tax authorities here and externally.

There is an issue with capital allowances and the placing onshore of intellectual property. I know that there was a discussion yesterday with Mr. Seamus Coffey about this feature of the tax system. There is a difference between it and transfer pricing, which is actually the rule. The aim is to ensure it is in accordance with the arm's length principle. Revenue seeks to ensure we review it and that we have a programme to review transfer pricing. The policy on capital allowances and whether the figure should be 100% or 80% are matters for the Minister.

I know that it is a Government decision, but the point I am making is that they can then engineer the price such that they manage the tax liability. Mr. Cody states the arm's length principle applies, but it was explained to me in an email by an anonymous guy working in one of the companies - I will not mention the name - that the company literally stated how much money it had made and turned it into a cost. That is what they do. If the profit figure is €500 million, €600 million or €700 million, what is actually a profit becomes a cost at the stroke of a pen. They use the subsidiary located in the low tax location or the location in which no tax is paid - in the particular case outlined in the Paradise Papers and our intangible assets allowance regime - which allows them to pay no additional tax. What is becoming apparent with the "single malt" is that they are also doing it in places with which we have double taxation agreements. That is the latest move in the constant innovation of their tax evasion strategy to utilise countries with which Ireland has double taxation agreements to do exactly the same thing - claiming that they are owned and controlled in one of the place in which no tax is paid and with which Ireland has a double taxation agreement, which allows them to achieve the same end. It is obvious tax evasion. I think it was Mr. Eddie Hobbs who wrote recently about many of the big consultancy and accountancy firms in the docks that were openly touting that companies moved their money to Malta as it was no problem because of the double taxation regime in place. A company can pretend it is owned and controlled in Malta and get away with tax avoidance. The firms specifically cite Ireland's double taxation agreements as the mechanism through which it is done.

Mr. Niall Cody

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett made many points, one of which had to do with tax evasion. We are talking about complex interaction on the taxation of multinationals that are probably responsible for about 80% of global trade. The Deputy asked me how tax evasion could be tackled. The only way it can be tackled is internationally in a globally co-ordinated way. That is what the OECD BEPS, base erosion and profit shifting, project is about. Let us go back to 2012. The original process for double taxation agreements was very much about ensuring there would be no double taxation on international transactions. All through the 1990s and 2000s that was the process in place. In 2010 and 2011 - it was highlighted around 2012 - there was an increased recognition that some of the strategy used by multinational enterprise led to double non-taxation. This culminated in the US Senate hearings. We have spoken before about this issue. The G20, the G7 and the OECD BEPS project became part of the process in tackling that issue. The various 15 groups and numerous actions are part of tackling it. It is not something the Revenue Commissioners can close down across the board. Ours is a small administration, but we have been very active participants in the work being done at OECD level to tackle the tax issue. As tax officials, we do not-----

Revenue does not make the law.

Mr. Niall Cody

It does not sit easy with the Revenue Commissioners that there is exploitation of mismatches in certain areas. The BEPS project action plan has happened. The Coffey report represents a really useful bringing together of the recommendations made. The consultation process is under way and presents an opportunity for all of the various agencies involved.

I am out of time and the Chairman is pulling me up, but I wish to ask one last question.

I have heard the argument and know that there is truth to it, but I also do not completely buy the argument that there is nothing we can do here. I take the point that ultimately it is politicians, not the Revenue Commissioners, who decide, but if, for example, we had very severe penalties and were to make it a much more serious criminal offence for accountancy firms operating in Ireland to in any way advise, encourage, suggest, or facilitate offshore tax avoidance schemes and encourage people to move money offshore and consequently reduce their tax liabilities, would that not have an impact? Notwithstanding the intelligence of the people concerned to manipulate the international environment and the mismatches, if we had more severe penalties in Ireland, does Mr. Cody think we could scare some of the firms such that they would not facilitate such behaviour and advertise their ability to participate in schemes?

Mr. Niall Cody

It comes down to the differences between evasion, avoidance and tax planning. There are challenges. We cannot impose penalties on anybody. First, there has to be law in the courts. There are potential charges for aiding and abetting tax evasion, but tax avoidance is a very different matter. Sometimes - I see the Deputy smiling-----

The distinctions are lost on me.

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely. It is a challenge that we in the Revenue Commissioners constantly have to address. There is what we call aggressive tax planning. Some of the advisers in the accountancy firms look at us blankly and cannot understand the concept of aggressive tax planning, as they see it as very sensible advice.

Without dewelling on it, I want to pick up on the terminology used, including tax planning, tax efficiency, tax avoidance and tax evasion. Clearly, tax evasion is illegal. What is the status of tax avoidance?

Mr. Niall Cody

Tax avoidance is legal, but the Revenue Commissioners will challenge it if we can find flaws in its implementation. One of my colleagues who always speaks about the significant differences in tax evasion and tax avoidance says if there is tax avoidance, the participants should be open to making full information available to the Revenue Commissioners, but that is what usually does not happen.

The reason I have asked the question is Mr. Cody has said that if there is evidence of aggressive tax avoidance contrary to Irish legislation - I do not want to get into a debate about definitions - it is no longer tax avoidance but tax evasion.

Mr. Niall Cody

When I say it is contrary to Irish legislation, it is usually that we can find some flaw in its implementation. I forget whether it was at a meeting of this committee or the Committee of Public Accounts that we were talking about the medical consultants project. A big internal debate in our organisation was about whether it constituted tax evasion or tax avoidance. Owing to the absolute unreasonableness of the process, we actually put the extreme cases in the tax evasion category and imposed penalties. That is why some of them are published.

Very good work was done on the medical consultants project. I commend the work of the Revenue Commissioners. I have always been impressed by it, despite my difficulties with the Apple case and all the rest. As it predated Mr. Cody's time, I will give him a pass on it.

One of the issues with the Paradise Papers is the interaction of the financial institutions with their subsidiaries and the targeting of Irish residents. We need to see all of the detail to find out whether the activity falls into the bracket of tax planning, tax avoidance or tax evasion. I do not have the details. I have a question for Mr. Cody that I have asked the Minister for Finance. The information given in the response is to be found in the Official Report of the Dáil. Did the Revenue Commissioners seek information from the subsidiary in the Isle of Man in 2015? Am I correct in that regard? When was the last time the information was sought from AIB?

Mr. Niall Cody

I will have to check the date on which we sought the information from the Isle of Man.

Was it in the past two years? It has been reported that there was a request and then a court order, with the result that the issue was dealt with in the courts on the Isle of Man. Does Mr. Cody have any indication as to when that happened?

Mr. Niall Cody

I probably have that information to hand and we can certainly provide it for the committee. I was speaking about the Isle of Man court case in the past week or two to our official who was involved. It involved Bank of Ireland.

Mr. Niall Cody

I am nearly certain that the Isle of Man court case dealt with Bank of Ireland. My colleagues might have the date. There is no problem; in a way, it is not a taxpayer-----

The Revenue Commissioners have written to the financial institutions asking them to provide the information voluntarily. We know from the Minister's answer to a question in the Dáil that the information has not been provided heretofore for the Revenue Commissioners. The subsidiaries have been closed down.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes.

Therefore, all the data now lie with the parent company.

Mr. Niall Cody

My understanding is the data, the records, are held in the Isle of Man. It has to do with the Paradise Papers leaks, essentially from Appleby and Estera, the agents of the liquidated entity on the Isle of Man.

Therefore, the information of the subsidiaries of the Irish financial institutions is not controlled at this point by the parent company.

Mr. Niall Cody

We do not know that definitively, which is the reason we have written to them.

It is welcome that the Revenue Commissioners have written to them, but I want to know why they did not ask for the information when the companies were wound up in 2012, bearing in mind that they no longer have a board. The winding up process begun in 2012 was completed in 2013 or thereabouts. Why did the Revenue Commissioners not seek the information then?

Mr. Niall Cody

I cannot tell the Deputy why the officials at the time who handled the offshore assets have not gone through a court process with the Isle of Man. I hesitate to say they would have believed that was the end of their legal opportunity. We believed it was appropriate to write to both entities to say that, in the light of their statements-----

Have the Revenue Commissioners received a response?

Mr. Niall Cody

They have 21 days. We wrote on 20 November.

One of the other interesting aspects of the offshore assets project is its effectiveness. What we were aiming to deal with was moneys moving mostly through Irish parts of the financial institutions and being placed offshore. The yield from our offshore project - over €1 billion - is very significant. I noted the equivalent yield of HMRC's offshore assets project in the United Kingdom. I had the good fortune to be watching the proceedings at one of the House of Commons committees when my counterpart was talking about some of these issues. Reference was made to a yield from the offshore assets project in the region of £2.5 billion. Proportionately, that is-----

It is very impressive.

Mr. Niall Cody

If there is more, we will be really interested in tracking it down.

Let us consider the bogus non-resident accounts. I come from Gaoth Dobhair in west Donegal where there used to be a turf-burning station to generate electricity. I know many people who used to cut turf and sell it to the factory which burned it to generate electricity. To a person, they were advised by a financial institution to put their money in accounts on the Isle of Man. These are not tax planners but ordinary people who went out with a sleán to cut turf. They did seriously hard work and were put to the pin of their collar as a result of the advice they had received. They had to pay the very severe penalty, but the bankers walked free. The Revenue Commissioners refer to criminal prosecutions, but it is no wonder that the Isle of Man continued to target Irish residents or AIB and Bank of Ireland. Those concerned got away scot free. Nobody is being prosecuted.

Mr. Cody refers to evidence. The Revenue Commissioners have recovered the money extremely efficiently, including through applying penalties, but the deterrents for the future were not dealt with appropriately. That takes me to the question of how many tax evaders have faced criminal prosecution in recent years. How many companies have faced criminal prosecution for tax evasion? How many firms that advised on these structures have faced criminal prosecution? I say with hand on heart that I have considerable regard for the Revenue Commissioners. The agency is extremely professional, but there is a serious problem. If one is caught, one has to pay the penalties, unless there is a scheme that continues for years and years, in which case one can put up one's hands and not face rigorous penalties, but there is no real deterrent afterwards. I am not talking about the individual who has an account in England and forgets to declare it; I am talking about the serious players in the game.

Mr. Niall Cody

Both of my predecessors have been here talking about various aspects of the bogus non-resident accounts, including Ansbacher accounts. I was appointed on 1 February 2015. Two weeks later, the HSBC leak occurred. I was here talking about our success in dealing with HSBC.

I was newly appointed and I had to account for what happened previously, which had me diving deep into the area. Ireland had limited involvement with HSBC Swiss. We had four prosecutions for serious tax evasion linked to the HSBC data. I am talking about the €1 billion versus the €2.5 billion. It was more in number than was the case in the UK, which had a much higher involvement.

Every year, there are serious tax and duty prosecutions. The figure for last year was something like 28.

Did they involve criminal prosecutions?

Mr. Niall Cody

They involved criminal prosecutions for serious tax and duty evasion. The number of convictions for serious evasion was 18, 16 were referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and there are 108 ongoing investigations. They were in 2016. The courts have imposed custodial sentences in six of those cases, two of which were partially suspended and one was fully suspended. There were 13 serious duty convictions in 2017 with custodial sentences imposed, one of which was partially suspended and eight were fully suspended. The prison terms imposed in ten cases ranged from seven months to two and a half years.

Into which category would they mostly fall? I presume it is fuel.

Mr. Niall Cody

The duty cases mostly relate to fuel and cigarettes; the tax cases are for serious tax evasion. We have had the opportunity for a settlement disclosure process under the changes in the Finance Act 2016. We were probably the first to do it in a systematic way, arising from bogus non-resident accounts. We learned a lot from those. Bogus non-resident accounts were much further from the Border than west Donegal. They were all around the country. We went through that process. In the context of the Finance Act 2016, we made a proposal to the Minister in respect of restricting the opportunity for disclosure where there are offshore matters because we were strongly of the view that it was time to pull down the curtain on a disclosure process relating to an exercise - with significant information involved and significant exchange thereof - that went on for 15 years.

We debated that in the Finance Bill at the time and we disagreed with the lead-in period and all the rest, or at least I did at the time.

In respect of Mr. Cody's comments about the information in the public domain where he said, "Our analysis indicated 71 entities that may have an association with Ireland, as well as the 603 addresses and 802 individuals that the ICIJ have associated with Ireland." Can he confirm that this relates to the Panama Papers or is it connected with all the leaks?

Mr. Niall Cody

This is Paradise.

Sorry, this is Paradise only.

Mr. Niall Cody

This is our latest analysis of what it has put on its website.

Is it the case that the follow-up by the Revenue Commissioners in respect of these 802 individuals is to profile them, to put that analysis into the computer to look for mismatches and red flags and follow up on each individual?

Mr. Niall Cody

That is the case.

In respect of the Panama Papers, is it the case that all of the information was provided to the Revenue Commissioners at that time? I know the ICIJ will not provide information to the authorities in different jurisdictions but was it the Panama Papers that ended up in the authorities' hands or was it the Luxleaks?

Mr. Niall Cody

There was more information in the context of Luxleaks. Panama was similar to the Paradise papers in that limited information was made publicly available around names and addresses linked to Ireland. We took the Panama Papers database and spreadsheet and carried out our analysis. We have issued-----

My question was about one of the leaked documents - I do not know whether it related to the Panama Papers or Luxleaks - which was also leaked to one of the authorities in Luxembourg or somewhere like that. Perhaps one of the other members will recall that better than I do. Therefore, one of the states had it. Was that shared with the Revenue Commissioners? I am referring to the raw data, not what the ICIJ put on its website.

Mr. Niall Cody

We got more information around Luxleaks and we got data. The full information for the Panama Papers was not made available to the authorities but we do know that revenue authorities in several countries purchased data relating to entities in their country.

Is it open to the Irish authorities to do the same?

Mr. Niall Cody

Our understanding is that we were not approached.

If the Revenue Commissioners were approached, would they be interested in purchasing the data?

Mr. Niall Cody

We would be interested in talking to anybody who has data. The question has never arisen of somebody telling us they have really interesting stuff that it would be in our interest to analyse. In respect of HSBC Swiss, it was not a location of normal usage by Irish residents because, as the Deputy said, the locations that tended to be used were much closer to us. It is interesting that when countries or administrations are approached, the parties who have this information have made their own analysis and said there is something of interest arising. The challenge would be for me and my colleagues on the board, if somebody approached us saying they had serious information, we would have to seriously consider what we would do. I have no idea what we would do.

I presume Revenue would welcome an approach.

Mr. Niall Cody

We would much more welcome an approach from somebody to give us the data.

We would all welcome that. I put that to the journalists who came before the committee but we all know it is unlikely to happen. I thank Mr. Cody. I might get a chance to speak again later.

Can Mr. Cody tease out how the general anti-avoidance provisions in the Taxes Consolidation Acts work in practice, where Revenue believes a structure is designed with this purpose of avoiding tax and has no underlying economic purpose? All tax structures and transactions will be based on advice and with a view to minimising or avoiding tax. In what circumstances would Revenue invoke those general anti-avoidance provisions? Would it be in cases where it thinks there is something artificial involved and that is then not legal? It can invoke those powers to reverse it but it seems to me there is a very fine line between them because these are all avoidance structures.

Mr. Niall Cody

It might be useful to broaden this to describe our approach to tackling anti-avoidance. We have three dedicated branches dealing with anti-avoidance in our large cases division. It is considering schemes that come to light through its own analysis of our databases.

It also looks at schemes which come to light through protected disclosures. There are different rules and different incentives, depending on what the taxpayer does. I spoke earlier about one of the key features which differentiates between tax avoidance and tax evasion, which is the idea of producing information. That is to say, whether the taxpayer gives Revenue the information and says that he or she is happy that it is legitimate and for bona fide business reasons, namely, to generate profit or whatever. We look at those. There are essentially two approaches to dealing with something which we see as having the hallmarks of avoidance. The first is to consider whether there is a specific provision in our anti-avoidance legislation under which the scheme can be tackled or we have our general anti-avoidance provision, which was originally section 811 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. I believe this provision was first introduced in 1988. Again, we were one of the first countries-----

Is it used much in practice?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is used a good bit. It underwent a significant rewrite in 2014 or 2015. We did a huge rewrite because it was originally constructed in such a way that we had to form an opinion and issue a notice of opinion. We found ourselves seriously challenged, not in the appeals process but through judicial reviews. There were some serious judicial review cases which challenged the process and sought to find out who formed the opinion. There was a High Court case which really came down to the meaning of the word "immediately" because once we formed the opinion, we were to issue it immediately. We were seriously challenged in the High Court and we were very successful in contesting those judicial reviews. In 2014, we put forward proposals to the Department and the Minister to revamp the general anti-avoidance provision.

I remember that.

Mr. Niall Cody

The rewritten rule has been very successful but it sets a high bar. We have to determine that there is no commercial reality to a scheme and that it is entered into primarily to avoid Irish tax. We look at cases and we challenge them. The big change provided was that we could raise an assessment, which would then be appealed in the process. We have a range of cases under the general anti-avoidance-----

From the taxpayers' point of view, the commercial reality is that these schemes are entered into to avoid tax.

Mr. Niall Cody

A scheme will fall if it is only for the purposes of avoiding tax.

It is a fine line.

Mr. Niall Cody

It is a very fine line. It is interesting that the first section 811 case took more than ten years to get through the whole process and ended up before the Supreme Court. We won that case. That was really important. A couple of weeks ago, there was a decision from the European Court of Justice on an Irish VAT case which centred on the concept of abuse of rights. This principle is similar to a general anti-avoidance provision. The case was about a transaction which took place in Cork in 2002. It went from a referral from the Irish courts to the European Court of Justice and a decision issued a couple of weeks ago. It was very much on the same issue. The whole purpose of the transaction was to get a whole load of VAT back and to not pay any.

Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of transfer pricing. What standard is used by Revenue is respect of transfer pricing and when was it last updated? Is it an OECD standard?

Mr. Niall Cody

The Finance Act 2010 brought the arm's length principle from the OECD's 2010 transfer pricing guidelines into Irish law with effect from accounting periods beginning 1 January 2011. The first returns under this standard would have been accounts filed for 2011 at the end of September 2012. That provides the framework for our transfer pricing process.

That principle from 2010 is still the standard.

Mr. Niall Cody

That is still the standard. New OECD standards were released in 2017. In his report, Seamus Coffey recommended implementation of the BEPS actions on transfer pricing. That is part of the consultation process. Obviously, there are policy choices to be made. To be in accordance with the BEPS plan, we will have to update to the 2017 OECD transfer pricing guidelines.

We have not done that yet, however.

Mr. Niall Cody

It is part of the consultation process that has been announced. There is a timeline for the BEPS actions to be implemented by 2020. I fully expect that some elements of the BEPS actions will be included in the next three finance Bills. The transfer pricing process is a key part of that.

I have just a few more questions. Does Revenue have sufficient powers in respect of tackling offshore activity and dealing with the associated assets, structures and transactions? Does it have all the powers it needs?

Mr. Niall Cody

On the issue of powers, we look at where there are gaps and make recommendations to the Minister and the Department. In recent years, we have, by and large, got what we have sought.

In the context of the phrase "by and large", what has Revenue sought that it has not got?

Mr. Niall Cody

In last year's package on offshore activity, we sought the removal of the right to disclosure. The Minister announced a package of measures in the context of the budget. One of them was the creation of an offence of strict liability. Essentially, if one had an offshore account which was party to tax evasion, one would be liable. This goes back to Deputy Pearse Doherty's question about why we did not prosecute when somebody definitely had an account. The bar for criminal prosecution is high. It is a criminal prosecution so one must prove a mens rea and one must have evidence. We put forward a proposal and the Minister announced in the budget that it would be part of the package. When it came to the Finance Bill and drafting the provision, however, the Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Attorney General had a problem with it, essentially because of the Constitution. The UK had introduced a similar provision, but because of its different legal framework and because of decisions in the C case, it did not proceed here. It was not a result of the Minister opposing it however. One of the things we need to look at the end of this process is whether there are other approaches. The UK made a change recently which made it an offence for someone not to make a correction in a particular year. We will continue to look at that. The huge change is around the information we are getting. We are not dependent on court orders to find out something. We are now getting a huge exchange of information.

It is very interesting that the matching of the data is better because this is all linked into the anti-money laundering directives and the need to know one's customer. At one time, people would have used different versions of their name and address to mask matching.

Overall, Mr. Cody appears satisfied with the powers available to the Revenue Commissioners. Is that the message I am hearing?

Mr. Niall Cody

As chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, I hesitate to say I am satisfied with our powers.

Mr. Cody could say he is satisfied with them for now.

Mr. Niall Cody

For now.

It is a serious question. I would like to know whether Mr. Cody is satisfied with the powers available to the Revenue Commissioners. If not, we could explore and press the matter further.

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely. When we put forward proposals for powers, we treat that process very seriously. The tax practitioners believe that we have too many powers and we are given them too easily. We are very serious when we make proposals regarding powers. In fairness to the Department of Finance, it will challenge us on such proposals, which is important. I stated last May, during one of the joint committee's meetings on Brexit, that is important we are challenged when we seek more powers because the easiest solution can be argue for a new power.

If I may, I will raise two unrelated issues. I appreciate Mr. Cody has not received notice of them and if he needs to revert to me with a reply, that will be fine. Does Mr. Cody have any observations to make on the Tax Appeals Commission system? I accept the commission is entirely independent of the Revenue. I read a briefing from the Irish Tax Institute raising serious concerns about the backlog of cases before the commission. In September, there were 4,400 tax appeals before it, with the amount of tax in dispute standing at €1.5 billion. Some 60 appeals have been in the system for more than ten years and some date back 20 years. I appreciate that a transition was required from the old tax appeals system to the current system. Does Mr. Cody have any observations in respect of the length of time it is taking for appeals to be adjudicated by the Tax Appeals Commission?

Mr. Niall Cody

Any delay in finalising cases is not good. The reform involved in the Tax Appeals Commission is one of the most positive developments for tax administration in a long time. The commission has inherited a major legacy of delayed and backlogged cases. It is a new agency and it is carrying out a public consultation to which we have made a submission, as have the chartered accountants and various other players. One of the major reforms is that the Tax Appeals Commission now publishes its determinations, having regard to confidentiality. This is one of the most significant positive developments. It is now engaged in a process of determining how to manage the legacy while not ignoring the current workload. I take a positive view as I believe there will be a significant improvement in the administration of tax across the board in the coming years.

There is clearly a resource issue and I note that last week the Tax Appeals Commission advertised for case workers to support the process. It is now engaged in a series of innovative work practices regarding case conferences. While it will probably take a number of years, I am hopeful about the outcome of the process. The figure of 4,400 cases gives a false impression because many of these legacy cases are linked to tax avoidance issues. This means there will be a lead case and a series of follow-on cases. In some cases, hundreds of cases will be sorted if the original case is sorted.

They are clocking up interest while they are in the logjam. Is that not the case?

Mr. Niall Cody

There is also significant money involved, some of which has been paid on account to prevent interest clock running. Unfortunately, even if we win certain cases, the chance of collecting some of the money will be low.

Mr. Cody may recall correspondence I sent on fraud in the area of flat-rate addition VAT in the poultry sector. He will be aware of the general allegations that were made. Is he satisfied that the Revenue Commissioners have fully investigated the allegations of fraud and carried out a comprehensive and thorough assessment of the issue and reached a conclusion?

Mr. Niall Cody

Again, an issue arises with regard to the use of the word "fraud". There were practices in the poultry sector which, a little like international tax, exploited the interaction of the flat-rate addition and deductibility for registered farmers. Following an exercise by the Revenue Commissioners, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, introduced a facility in the Finance Act before last to bring an order to restrict the opportunity for a sector to engage in flat-rate activity. We have engaged extensively with the sector and the most egregious practices have ceased. We are considering whether we need to submit a further report to the Minister and whether an order needs to be issued. I know the Minister discussed on Report Stage of the most recent Finance Bill whether the Revenue Commissioners are unhappy with the current position and whether they believe the problem persists. My colleagues in indirect taxes are examining this issue. We are also assessing whether the practice could be used in other sectors.

Having examined the details and the file, is Mr. Cody satisfied that the practice did not amount to fraud?

Mr. Niall Cody

It certainly was not tax fraud.

Was it revenue fraud?

Mr. Niall Cody

It was not revenue fraud because if it had been, instead of bringing forward a provision, we would be tackling fraudulent claims. The issue was one of price setting. The way the sector works is that there is essentially a major producer and sub-farmers who are provided with a chicken which he raises-----

We are familiar with the system and we know it is complicated.

Mr. Niall Cody

The producers also provide farmers with feedstuffs. It was the interaction of all this where the issue arose. It was not fraud on the tax system which is why we had to look at it in another way.

Will Revenue be the only and final arbiter on the question of whether a practice or an activity is revenue fraud? Does that decision rest exclusively with Revenue? Is it the case that no one else can make that decision because Revenue is the policeman for revenue fraud?

Mr. Niall Cody

I suppose An Garda Síochána can examine whether an activity is fraudulent but the Garda tends to leave pure tax fraud to the Revenue Commissioners. There is clearly an element of the Criminal Assets Bureau which deals with tax fraud. However, we consider ourselves to be the competent authority for dealing with tax evasion and tax fraud.

Previous speakers may have raised the two issues I intend to raise. Has reference been made to Mr. Seamus Coffey's appearance before the joint committee last night?

It was referred to briefly.

Mr. Cody is familiar with Mr. Coffey's report. He made a couple of recommendations and I would like Mr. Cody's observation on them. Mr. Coffey took the view that the level of expertise in the Revenue Commissioner's was not of sufficient strength in the context of a range of measures. Will Mr. Cody comment on what is being done to increase the level of expertise to what is required? Mr. Coffey also spoke about the measures to be brought in on transfer pricing and a range of other areas. He was looking at an integrated model so that in future years, when Ireland is operating in a global environment in which aggressive tax planning is the order of the day, any arrangements arrived at in Ireland will stand up to scrutiny and due diligence measures. Will Mr. Cody give his observation on that? It is a relatively fresh report. It is also a pretty direct report.

When does Mr. Cody expect he will have concluded his investigations into the Paradise Papers and so forth?

Mr. Niall Cody

The issue on the Coffey report and the recommendations-----

I would like Mr. Cody's observations on it.

Mr. Niall Cody

I stayed up late watching the committee's proceedings. The report is an excellent pull-together of the issue of BEPS and it makes recommendations. There is a consultation process under way and policy decisions to be made. That will take place over the next number of Finance Acts. We operate in a globalised world so the issues of aggressive tax planning and multinational exploitation of mismatches will always exist. Companies will look at how to minimise tax liability and maximise return to shareholders and that is fine.

One would be naive to think otherwise.

Mr. Niall Cody

The last question about when our consideration of the issues highlighted in the Paradise Papers be over-----

Panama Papers, rather.

Mr. Niall Cody

Panama is-----

No, sorry, the Paradise Papers.

Mr. Niall Cody

We are close to the end of the Panama issue and we have started on the Paradise Papers. With anything in this area, one cannot say when it will be finished because it depends on what it uncovers. We will take a serious approach to the analysis of the cases in the Paradise Papers and determine whether there are issues. I am tempted to say our work in the area will never be finished.

The work the Revenue Commissioners did on the separate investigation into the use of trust and offshore structures is now substantially complete and has yielded more than €100 million. How long did that take?

Mr. Niall Cody

It took about four years. The offshore work that started in 2003 is ongoing. Every year we have some element of settlement on that work.

The Paradise Papers work will take a number of years.

Mr. Niall Cody

It will take a number of years.

The report was critical of the level of expertise within the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr. Niall Cody

I disagree with the Senator.

I asked him a direct question. Mr. Cody heard that.

Mr. Niall Cody

I wanted to get the other two issues out of the way before I spoke about our resources.

I asked Mr. Coffey a direct question.

Mr. Niall Cody

He also said they are expensive resources.

I did not hear that.

Mr. Niall Cody

I heard that part. I thought it was very interesting. The recommendation that Seamus Coffey made in his report was about the competent authority.

That is the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr. Niall Cody

No, the competent authority is a specific part of our international tax division which deals with MAPs and APAs. It deals with arrangements in which another country's Administration looks to rebalance the profit attributed to Ireland and the other country. It is-----

That is just for pricing.

Mr. Niall Cody

No, there are two elements. There is the competent authority and audit of transfer pricing internally. Our competent authority in international tax has a principal officer, six assistant principal officers and three administrative officers. Four years ago, there was one full-time official in that area. In the first international tax strategy there was a recommendation that our competent authority would be added to and that has happened. We greatly welcome the recommendation to increase the resource of the competent authority.

What does Mr. Cody define as the competent authority?

Mr. Niall Cody

Every administration has a designated competent authority that exchanges and debates with its equivalent competent authority on transfer pricing arrangements and comes to an agreement. It is a process that takes a number of years. We have boosted our competent authority resource and simultaneously we increased our resource dealing with transfer pricing audits because the two things are-----

Is Mr. Cody saying the competent authority is a strategic unit as distinct from an operational, practical unit in terms of audit?

Mr. Niall Cody

Best practice is laid down by the OECD which says the competent authority should not be the transfer pricing audit team.

Was it at one stage?

Mr. Niall Cody

We spoke earlier about when we introduced our transfer pricing rules in 2010. We started to develop our transfer pricing audit team from 2010 on.

What about prior to that?

Mr. Niall Cody

Prior to that we did not have transfer pricing provision within our code.

If a large multinational company came into Ireland and, as all companies do, came up with a transfer pricing model within its group company structure, how would that fit into Revenue in terms of-----

Mr. Niall Cody

Now what happens is-----

What happened back then?

Mr. Niall Cody

Before then, they were obliged under self-assessment to return having regard to their arrangements but the Irish tax code did not have a specific arm's length principle set out in transfer pricing. We then had to look at whether the return reflected the activity that took place.

Pre-2010 and post-2010 are very different.

Mr. Niall Cody

Pre-2010 and post-2010 are very different. Since 2010, we have the rules. BEPS action proposes enhancements to the transfer pricing rules. There are now 2017 OECD transfer pricing rules.

If there is a large multinational company engaged in transfer pricing over many years and it is using a certain model under self-assessment, was the type of transfer pricing model it was using reassessed by Revenue post-2010? Are they still operating on a self-assessment basis?

Mr. Niall Cody

I referred earlier to our risk processes earlier. We carry out transfer pricing compliance reviews. We started a programme of transfer pricing audits in 2015. As with any of our risk-based audit programmes, having regard to our resources, what we have done over the past few years-----

Does risk-based involve potential loss of revenue to the Exchequer? Would that feed into it?

Mr. Niall Cody

The transfer pricing audit is to try to ensure that the right profits are attributed to the activity in Ireland.

Based on the discussions between the competent authority-----

Mr. Niall Cody

No, this is the transfer pricing audit process.

That is based on discussions that would have taken place between the competent authority in Ireland and other companies units in Europe and so on. My understanding is that a defined agreement with other countries is agreed upon------

Mr. Niall Cody

That is not the case. Our process involves managing entities in Ireland that are taxable under self assessment. The competent authority deals with challenges from another country regarding profits attributable to Ireland and the flow between the two countries.

Is that based on company-specific cases?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is company specific and regards the interaction between the administrations of two countries.

The competent authority does not deal with general issues but, rather, company-specific matters.

Mr. Niall Cody

It deals with company-specific matters and, essentially, a claim by the other country------

I see where Mr. Cody is coming from. What is his view of Seamus Coffey's statement that the competent authority element is not sufficiently resourced, although it has sufficient expertise?

Mr. Niall Cody

In December we will advertise for additional resources to deal with international tax and transfer pricing through the competent authority.

How many extra staff will be taken on?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is a difficult area into which to recruit people.

Mr. Niall Cody

We will mainly be recruiting at assistant principal level.

What qualifications will the recruits have? Will they be tax accountants?

Mr. Niall Cody

Tax accountants, but transfer pricing is somewhat different to much of our tax work, as there is plenty of room for economists and statisticians. The head of our competent authority is a principal officer and hardly ever opens the Taxes Consolidation Act that Ms Doonan has beside her because her work involves economic pricing arrangements. The staffing level must be considered in the context of our overall resources. In 2007, Revenue had 6,600 full-time equivalent staff but that had fallen to 5,700 by 2014 due to the public sector recruitment embargo. Over the past three budgets, we put forward a business case to the Minister for Finance in the context of the Estimates and the budget for an additional 326 staff.

How many of those staff were for the competent authority?

Mr. Niall Cody

Most of the staff increase has been in the competent authority and transfer pricing process.

That section is being beefed up.

Mr. Niall Cody

It is. By the end of next year, there will be 6,100 full-time equivalent staff in Revenue.

I know that. I do not want to delay people. I understood from Seamus Coffey's report that he thought the legal structures in terms of transfer pricing were not sufficiently advanced in 2017 and the competent authority was not sufficiently resourced. I want things to be backed up by tax legislation. I would like the head of the competent authority to whom Mr. Cody made reference to refer to the tax Acts a little more. We should be able to show other countries that our processes have been defined in both practical economic and legal terms. Does Mr. Cody believe that our transfer pricing system is watertight in an economic and legal sense and due diligence is gone through? What will be the total number of staff in the competent authority?

Mr. Niall Cody

It will depend on what happens in terms of the market and applicants. I would like if we could double our resources on the competent authority and transfer pricing teams over the coming two years.

How many extra staff would that be?

Mr. Niall Cody

Over two years, maybe 12 to 15 additional very well-qualified-----

What about fast-forwarding the area of transfer pricing?

Mr. Niall Cody

That is a matter of legislation. I am limited in what I can do in that regard.

In regard to corporation tax and the use of company structures to avoid paying PAYE tax, has the Revenue ever examined a company structure such as that where an engineer is a contractor for a company which is his only client in order to conclude whether the relationship is more akin to one involving a PAYE employee? When I was in practice, one would examine the sales ledger of a company to see if it had myriad customers in order to show it is a genuine company. Some would argue that such practices are tax avoidance because one uses corporation tax and has more options to escape PAYE. Has the Revenue ever examined such a company structure and concluded that a person has a PAYE relationship and should be an employee of the company?

Mr. Niall Cody

The area of personal service companies, PSC, and managed service companies, MSC, is a very challenging area on which we have been very active. Deputy Boyd Barrett asked about employment and bogus self-employment. Members are familiar with our work on the contractors project, which was the subject of a review by the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is practically impossible to examine limited liability and company status. A consultation process in which we had a huge support role and which was sponsored by the Departments of Finance and Employment Affairs and Social Protection has been finalised. The report in that regard is soon to be published. The challenge in respect of PSC and MSC-type structures is that the employers' PRSI contribution is the primary fiscal incentive. There are issues in terms of expenses but the 12.5% tax rate and close company surcharge should equalise some of that. The employers' PRSI contribution is the main fiscal driver. There are other drivers in terms of employment rights and workers' rights. There are different motivations and incentives in respect of personal service companies for a person who is well-paid and other operations whereby people are probably being forced into a process. It is hugely challenging to examine, in particular where people enter into an arrangement with a limited company, which is an entity in its own right. I usually say such issues are policy matters and I do not have a personal opinion but I think there is a need for a legislative process in regard to the need for the payment of the equivalent of an employer's PRSI contribution by a principal contractor in some yet-to-be-defined circumstances. I am not solely referring to construction. It is a complex area and no country has managed to implement such legislation. Members are familiar with the Taylor report, which considered some such aspects in the United Kingdom. It is a matter for legislation.

If there is to be legislation and if it is implemented we will then have a process which we will be changing again in a few years. It is a bit like the tax planning process. What we do is look at employment of people, employment for people and sole traders, and what is deemed to be bogus self-employment. For example, last year we did 2,167 visits to construction sites and interviewed 11,700 people. We reclassified probably only 340 people, but 850 people on the sites were neither on the PAYE system nor on the subcontractor system. We got them registered. We registered various people as employers. We have a highly labour intensive process that we take very seriously. There is no doubt that there are many sectors, such as software engineering, with personal service companies. There are also managed service companies, with probably six directors as part of the company structure and often they do not know one other. These structures are put in place. When we started looking at the contractors project we saw inflated expense claims, and this is what we have challenged.

Some organisations are now marketing companies that are aimed at people coming out of an employee relationship. This is a very big business now. It opened my eyes when I looked through it. From what I can see, what they are doing is legally correct. We cannot look through the company structure in this regard. It is sad in one sense, because the rights of employees have been eroded as they lose their redundancy and various protections, and some people would argue there are more options for reducing tax in a company. Mr. Cody spoke about expenses, which are very micromanaged. If someone is working for one client the capacity is minimal. There is also retirement planning, pension payments and other structures. To be clear, we have not looked through a company structure as yet.

Mr. Niall Cody

No, and if there is to be legislative change it will be challenging. The report is to be published. I presume it will lead to a consultation process. It also touches on the gig economy. There are employment cases in the UK and we are paying close attention to the area. The Taylor report speaks about a dependent worker. Getting away from the clear definition, there is a different category.

Does Mr. Cody believe tax rulings should be made public? Is he opposed to the idea of a law requiring advance tax rulings to be made public?

Mr. Niall Cody

Again, it would require a legislative change to remove taxpayer confidentiality. The issue is bigger than any country. In the context of the OECD, if rulings were going to be made public there are certainly administrations from which we would not get details. There are all types of challenges there. Taxpayer confidentiality is a core part of the Irish tax structure.

One of the points Mr. Seamus Coffey raised yesterday was on interest and the idea of transfer pricing, and that it needs to be applied, particularly with regard to interest on non-traded income. Is this something Revenue is looking at? Is it something it is aware of? Does Mr. Cody have any views on his comments? He said he followed the debate last night.

Mr. Niall Cody

His recommendation is to extend the transfer pricing rules to cover it. Under the 2017 OECD guidelines on the BEPS process, it is inevitable that over time it will happen, but it will require a legislative change.

Mr. Coffey stated that if one looks at the data one will see that a significant amount of it is happening at this point in time. Is there a concern within Revenue that we are missing something without this legislative change at this point?

Mr. Niall Cody

If we look back at the LuxLeaks in particular, mismatches of interest became part of the process to facilitate base erosion and profit shifting.

I will stick with interest. With regard to the financial institutions, has each of the 11 institutions which we now know were involved in the tracker mortgage scandal contacted Revenue to make arrangements to pay the mortgage interest relief the customers are due? Have these payments been made or have arrangements been made?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is a very active process for our financial services branch in large cases division. Very serious discussions are ongoing regarding the rebalancing of the mortgage interest relief. There are also issues regarding preferential loans for employees. There is a lot of fall-out from the process, on which we are actively engaged with all of them.

I am not asking Mr. Cody to identify any individual or individual institution, but is there a full spirit of co-operation or is Revenue seeing any resistance?

Mr. Niall Cody

My understanding, because I did not prepare myself for this particular aspect-----

I appreciate that.

Mr. Niall Cody

-----is there is serious and ongoing engagement. I have no evidence, or nobody has said to me, there is a problem with a particular financial institution. The issue probably is that they must finalise. It is dependent on finalising the arrangements with the mortgage holders.

In regard to the calculation of interest, have the Revenue Commissioners concluded the piece of work to calculate the interest that would be due with regard to the €13 billion from Apple? I understand Revenue would be the authority that would have to calculate this based on the Commission's guidelines. Has this work been done and supplied to the Department to ensure the total amount is put into an escrow account?

Mr. Niall Cody

The Deputy is right that our role regarding the state aid recovery is the calculation of the liability of the amount to go into escrow. Effectively, we are speaking about a ten-year computation for each of the companies. It is like a very big audit and it will take a long time. We do not do ten-year audits. It is mostly complete but there are still some elements of it to be completed. As most years have been completed and agreed, that process is nearly finished.

Does Revenue have any understanding of when it will be finished? Will Mr. Cody give us an indication on the calculation of where he sees this ending up? Obviously there is the €13 billion that has been put out there by the Commission. Others have estimated that the interest that would be applied to it could be between €3 billion and €5 billion on top of this. Some suggest it could be less.

Mr. Niall Cody

I am not in a position to say what that figure is exactly, or when it will be finished. I expect it to be a matter of some, but not many, months.

That is very worrying because we are being taken to court by the European Commission.

Mr. Niall Cody

I am aware of that, but there is a process we have to finalise. It is mostly complete.

I appreciate the point about the figure; I was just chancing my arm to see if the witness would slip it in. I presume that having the money placed in an escrow account cannot happen until the Revenue Commissioners have concluded their calculations of the total amount, that is, coming up with the €13 billion figure and then the interest portion, or is Mr. Cody saying that the process can go ahead without a full calculation on a provisional basis? If we are talking about months here, I am concerned that no money can be put into this account when it is established until that process is concluded.

Mr. Niall Cody

The issue around whether the proportion that is calculated can be lodged to the account when the escrow arrangement is set up is not one for us, so I cannot answer that. We have no role in the operation of the escrow account or the lodging of the money. I would be misleading the Deputy if I said one could put in what we have figured out and agreed with both the Commission and Apple. The Deputy will have to ask the Department.

I do not understand that. Is there an agreed figure? Is there a portion of the calculation agreed at this point?

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes.

The final figure has not been agreed. I have a final question. It relates to Brexit, which is very topical at present. It is off the subject but we have all seen the leaked document, which I understand is an incomplete desktop study. There were suggestions that the Revenue Commissioners were asked to stop the work they were doing. Are the Revenue Commissioners carrying out a further assessment of the implications of Brexit? Are they getting ready for what I view as a potential nightmare scenario where the North would leave the customs union and there would have to be checks? How ready can the Department be in respect of personnel, capacity, IT and so forth to deal with that potential scenario, which hopefully is never realised?

Mr. Niall Cody

The Deputy will recall that I appeared before the committee last May to discuss customs procedures and Brexit. We have said that we are trying to ensure our ICT framework is in place to facilitate an increase in customs entry, so we can have a process in place. We must develop our customs ICT systems to implement the Union customs code, which was passed in 2016 and is to be introduced in stages. We are in a process of ensuring that our ICT framework is fit for purpose because that will be the thing that will prevent all trade facilitation. It requires scaling up our systems and looking at how to maximise the opportunities provided in the Union customs code, which will be relevant regardless of the outcome of Brexit. As I said that day, we are not planning customs posts on the land frontier. We are not going through that process.

We are constantly asked what staffing we would need to control a customs process where there was a full hard Brexit, or whatever it is called. We do not know. We pay close attention to the UK commentary where people talk about up to 5,000 customs officials. We received authorisation in the 2016 budget for an additional resource of 40 for preparatory work on Brexit. A parliamentary question was asked about our current numbers - it was probably answered today. We probably have fewer than 20 people who are engaged in the process around the Union customs code and scaling up our operations, which will deal with some aspects of Brexit. Clearly, the idea of a hard border is unthinkable but customs is moving very much towards an audit based system, and we wish to maximise that whatever happens. There is a sense or idea that we were instructed to stop doing our work, but we have always said that what we are doing is scoping out the Union customs code. The original draft report was work started by our customs division very early, which we did not finish. When we looked at aspects, we were not instructed by anybody to stop any of the work we were going, and we have an obligation to carry out our work as the tax and customs administration.

I have so many questions we could talk all night. I will try to ask them quickly so I do not run out of time and perhaps Mr. Cody could do his best to be brief in his replies. I mean no disrespect to him saying that. It is just that I am anxious to get through them.

The Revenue Commissioners are still down 600 staff since the cuts and the moratorium started and Mr. Cody is now seeking an extra 326. Is that correct?

Mr. Niall Cody

No. Over the past three budgets we have received approval for an increase. We are in an interesting position because the organisation is also facing significant demographic challenges. Some 35% of the Revenue Commissioners staff have over 35 years service. Last year, we recruited over 540 people and the year before it was over 410. This year, we will recruit over 500 people. That is a massive challenge for the organisation. The first time I appeared before the committee I was asked what was the biggest challenge facing the Revenue Commissioners. For me, the biggest challenge facing the organisation is staffing, resourcing, managing the demographic challenge and remaining fit for purpose, which means bringing people in, developing them and ensuring the values that underpin the organisation.

I understand that. I presume the case Mr. Cody would make to us, the public and the Government is that the more people the Revenue Commissioners can recruit and train, the more the Revenue Commissioners could gather-----

Mr. Niall Cody

It is not as-----

I realise it is difficult. People have to be trained and Mr. Cody is losing experienced people, but does he believe he is still short in absolute numbers from where he should be?

Mr. Niall Cody

We also must look at how the work has evolved and developed. Over 90% of income tax returns are filed electronically. VAT returns are filed electronically. From 1 January 2019, the PAYE system is undergoing a massive modernisation process which will be a huge challenge for us, employers and payroll providers to manage. However, in 2020 it will mean a significant removal of the requirement for people to fix employees' tax affairs. It will be digital and integrated with the system. One cannot say that as it was 6,600 in 2007, we must get back to that number.

I was just asking. I get the point.

Mr. Niall Cody

I must say that-----

Nonetheless, Mr. Cody appeared to be saying that if he had people to examine some of these compliance matters, whether it is transfer pricing or going around building sites to ensure there is no bogus self-employment, there would be a return from that.

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely. Deputy Pearse Doherty has asked us many parliamentary questions.

He was probably the only person who had read the comprehensive review in 2014 when we actually put figures on what additional revenue we could raise in having additional compliance staff. That is what we have included in our business case in the past three years. The simple thing for me to do would be to say we need extra funding of X amount. However, we need to have the capacity to take in staff and develop them as we lose many experienced personnel. We are getting in excellent people, but there are challenges in recruitment in Dublin. The Deputy spoke about financial firms on the quays in the financial services centre. We are competing with them in recruitment. We will continue to advertise for more staff. We provide an array of interesting jobs which I think are worthwhile. If one were working in some of the offices on the quays, one would not have as much interesting or useful work to do.

Mr. Cody is doing a good selling job and I do not dispute what he is saying as I am all for expanding the public sector.

The recent Oxfam report states if the EU criteria applied to tax havens were applied to Ireland, we would be blacklisted, with Luxembourg, Malta and the Netherlands. While it states we are okay when it comes to the BEPS, base erosion and profit shifting, project, compliance and tax transparency, we would be blacklisted when it came to fair taxation. One of the criteria used in judging fair taxation is the relationship between real economic activity and capital flows. That is the red flag for what we politely call tax avoidance or whatever euphemism we use for the guys who try to pay no tax.

According to the Oxfam report, royalties coming out of Ireland are the equivalent of 26% of gross domestic product. That signals that there is something amiss. What does Mr. Cody think about this and intellectual property? I know that he cannot comment on the politics of the issue of intangible assets allowance. However, when one looks at the massive placing onshore of intellectual property after the change to that measure, whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision, clearly it was tax avoidance activity and should be called as such. Does Mr. Cody feel able to say placing onshore of intellectual property on such a scale is clearly tax avoidance activity? It distorts the economy to the extent that it does not bear any relationship to real economic activity which, in turn, should signal that we have got to do something about it.

One point construction workers make to me is that if the same criteria were applied to the relationship between real economic activity and tax revenue under the relevant contracts tax, RCT, system, there should be a red flag there too. The latest figures I received from the Revenue Commissioners showed how the net income from 55,000 workers in the construction sector was €20 million after refunds and offsets. There was a gross figure of €200 million. The figure for offsets was €160 million. The tax revenue from 55,000 PAYE workers would be 100 times that amount. Should there not be a red flag given the mismatch between real economic activity and, in one case, tax revenue and, in another, the scale of capital flows? If the European Commission's judgment against Apple on the provision of state aid and a tax liability that flowed from it was applied to other similar firms which used the same tax structures, is it possible the European Union might believe it was owed more money?

The committee has agreed to invite Oxfam to make a presentation. It may consider inviting the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners back to the committee at that juncture.

Mr. Niall Cody

I do not know which member to answer.

The RCT is effectively a withholding tax. The money offset is the money that is paid. We get the principal contractor to stop RCT at the rate of 20% or 35%. That money is available to be offset. The offset is against the subcontractors' income tax liability. The net amount repaid is actually money that is available from the money that was stopped after they had filed their income tax return and paid. The offset is in settlement of the subcontractor's tax liability for the year. RCT works in a way that, if a subcontractor is up-to-date with their returns, there is a zero amount stopped because they have filed their income tax return and paid their tax under the normal system. RCT is a measure that ensures we impose a 35% rate on a non-compliant subcontractor to make them compliant. Some subcontractors like to have the figure of 20% stopped because it means that they will not end up with a big liability at the end of the year. Someday we will engage in a more in-depth discussion about this system.

We will have to have a longer discussion about it.

Mr. Niall Cody

Some of the questions about RCT actually indicate a misunderstanding of how the system works. It is actually an important safeguard to ensure compliance and gives huge information on what goes on in the construction sector. It is a model for many other areas on which, if we had possibilities, we could work.

The issue surrounding the Oxfam report-----

We will be bringing in representatives of Oxfam.

We will set aside that matter for now. Will Mr. Cody address my last question?

Mr. Niall Cody

I cannot answer Deputy Boyd Barrett's last question. Revenue fundamentally disagrees with the view of the European Commissioner for Competition on Apple. Ireland fundamentally-----

I am not asking that. Let us set aside the politics for a minute.

Mr. Niall Cody

This is not politics. What Revenue does - - - - -

I think it is politics.

Mr. Niall Cody

From the Revenue perspective, we can only implement the tax code as set out. If DG Competition is proved to be correct, it is because in some way the Irish tax code has not worked and has provided State aid. We cannot determine whether there are a number of cases similar to this case.

I really genuinely do not understand that. I know the Revenue Commissioners and the Government disagree. Set that debate aside, let us say whoever made the ruling-----

This is quite an important question and I want an answer to it.

I understand that. I fully appreciate that, but it is not the topic we are discussing.

Let us say that the people who made the decision in the European Union were in Mr Cody's job and decided to apply the same standards to other similar cases as to the ones they applied to Apple.

Mr. Niall Cody

We do not have the information that determines the group liability. What DG Competition has done is that they have looked at trying to tax non-Irish income. That is not within our competence.

I would like to close the meeting.

Mr. Niall Cody

If one of the staff from the EU Commission were in my job, he or she would have taken a very big pay cut.

I thank Mr. Cody and his officials for attending. I thank the members for their attendance.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 December 2017.
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