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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Apr 2018

Vol. 257 No. 7

Commencement Matters

Building Regulations

I echo the warm welcome you have issued, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, to our visitors, including the Australian ambassador to Ireland.

It is good to see him here.

I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House to take this important Commencement matter. I have no doubt that many colleagues will be aware of people who, in good faith, either bought a house or had a house built by a contractor and who were properly bonded and insured. People who either purchased or built such a house would have had professionals checking out the bonds to ensure there was proper insurance and so forth but, some years later, would have discovered defects. However, when they sought redress, in some cases the builders had gone out of business. There is no form of come back for them. Companies have gone bust, so to speak. In some cases, people retained professional expertise who did not do their job in terms of ensuring there were proper bonds, insurance and redress in place if something were to go wrong. There are such people, and thankfully they are a minority, in every county, including in my county, and we need to do something to help them because they are living in homes that are defective and, in some cases, not habitable. Some of them have to move out because the home has to be demolished. They are in turmoil because they do not know how they will fund the retrofitting or, in some cases, the demolition and rebuilding of their homes.

Much has been done to help people, particularly by this Government, but this is a group in our society that deserves some help from the Government. The economy has turned a corner. Building has commenced again. We are in a better position financially than we were previously. In these minority of cases, something should be done to give some comfort to people who find themselves in such a terrible position.

I thank Senator Conway for raising this issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

At the outset, I wish to acknowledge the distressing and stressful circumstances the owners and residents of buildings must face where building defects emerge. However, in general, building defects are matters for resolution between the contracting parties involved, the homeowner, the builder, the developer and-or their respective insurers, structural guarantee or warranty scheme.

It is important to note that while the Department has overall responsibility for establishing and maintaining an effective regulatory framework for building standards and building control, it has no general statutory role in resolving defects in privately owned buildings, including dwellings, nor does it have a budget for such matters. In this regard, it is incumbent on the parties responsible for poor workmanship and-or the supply of defective materials to face up to their responsibilities and take appropriate action to provide remedies for the affected homeowners.

The issue of legal redress for homeowners in respect of property transactions is a complex matter, with potential implications for the entire legal system as well as for the insurance industry. In this context, in February 2018, the Department wrote to the Law Reform Commission and also corresponded with those involved in the review of the administration of civil justice in Ireland requesting that they consider the issue of effective and accessible legal remedies for homeowners who discover defects in their homes.

Under the Building Control Acts 1990 to 2014, primary responsibility for compliance of works with the requirements of the building regulations, including Part B on fire safety, rests with the owners, designers and builders of buildings. Enforcement of the building regulations is a matter for the 31 local building control authorities, which have extensive powers of inspection and enforcement under the Acts and which are independent in the use of their statutory powers.

In August 2017, the Department published a framework for enhancing fire safety in dwellings where concerns arise.

The framework is intended to be used as a guide by the owners and occupants of dwellings where fire safety deficiencies have been identified or are a cause for concern. The framework will also be of assistance to professional advisers, both in developing strategies to improve fire safety and in developing strategies to enable continued occupation in advance of undertaking necessary works to ensure compliance with the relevant building regulations. In response to the many building failures that have emerged in the past decade, the Department introduced the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations to the 2014 Act which require greater accountability on the compliance with building regulations in the form of statutory certification of design and construction by registered construction professionals and builders, lodgement of compliance documentation, mandatory inspections during construction and validation and registration of certificates. A certificate of compliance on completion is jointly signed by the builder and the assigned certifier. This must be accompanied by plans and documentation to show how the constructed building complies with the building regulations and also the inspection plan as implemented.

Parallel with the 2014 regulations, a project is in place in the Local Government Management Agency to improve the effectiveness of the building control system. A number of enhancements have been delivered to date and others are in progress. Ultimately this work will be embedded in a centralised structure for the governance and oversight of building control as a shared service in a lead local authority.

Last year the Government approved the draft heads of a Bill to place the Construction Industry Register Ireland on a statutory footing and the Bill was referred to the Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government for pre-legislative scrutiny. The committee's report was received on 14 December 2017 and the Department is considering its recommendations, with a view to progressing the drafting as soon as possible. Once it is enacted, the Bill will provide consumers who engage a registered builder with the assurance that they are dealing with a competent and compliant operator and will complement the reforms which have been made through the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations and contribute to the development of an enhanced culture of competence and compliance in the construction sector.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Phelan, for his comprehensive reply. The positives in this are that we are taking a much more hands on approach in managing and regulating builders compared to the complete and total light touch regulation that existed prior to, and during, the last economic boom. That is good and it is reassuring for people who, in good faith, hire a contractor to build a home. Of course the problem now is that contractors, who are prepared to build one off houses, are few and far between because a lot of our builders unfortunately emigrated and have made lives for themselves abroad. I thank the Minister of State for that reply, which I will study. I will bring it back to Clare County Council which passed a motion that there should be a redress scheme. I have no doubt we will have a further engagement on this important matter in due course.

That concludes this matter unless the Minister of State wants to come back in.

Architectural Heritage

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, to the House. I note that there are three former Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown councillors here - one in the Chair, one putting the question and one answering the question. Senator Conway-Walsh is also welcome to the Chamber. It is like Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown on tour. I call Senator Boyhan.

I warmly welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, to the House because I am aware of her track record with the built heritage and architecture of the county, particularly her work in Dún Laoghaire but also in Dalkey, Killiney and Shankill all the way up to Monkstown, Blackrock and Booterstown. The Acting Chairman will be aware of it too.

We are dealing with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Dundrum, Kilcullen and everywhere.

I am just coming to that. I would also say Dundrum as well. Last week, I received a substantial number of boxes of architectural drawings and pictures relating to Dún Laoghaire which were done by the late Mr. Stephen Devaney. I have been in touch with the council and, if it will not be deposited with the council, it will be deposited in Merrion Square at the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage. It is an amazing amount of work. Much of it, strangely enough, deals also with Dundrum, Kilgobbin and thereabouts. These are photographs, etchings and drawings. I acknowledge the work of An Taisce in south Dublin, not just in Dún Laoghaire, which did a great deal of this work. It is a valuable piece of work and timely. The National Inventory of Architectural Heritage might like to look at it.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. I am trying to maintain the focus. There has been an inventory of architectural heritage carried out in many local authority areas. There is merit in having it. Outside of Dublin and Cork, Dún Laoghaire would have one of the largest percentages of protected structures, and rightly so, because they are unique and are worth protecting. We have to make progress, at the same time, and we have to develop and move forward.

We can cherish the past and mind our architectural past while also being progressive enough to look for imaginative synergies and solutions to develop our towns and villages. I hope to keep our collective focus on it, to work on it and maybe to get some sort of measure as to when it will happen. This information is important because it will act as a toolkit in many ways to informing decisions about planning.

I thank Senator Boyhan for raising the matter. I, too, pay tribute to the late Mr. Stephen Devaney. I certainly knew him and I am aware of the good work that he did to protect our conservation areas and to protect the beautiful county we all share with Senator Horkan.

Under the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, planning authorities are required to maintain a record of protected structures. The Act specifies that this should include structures of special architectural, historical, archaeological, artistic, cultural, scientific, social or technical interest within its functional area.

The compilation of a National Inventory of Architectural Heritage, an inventory of structures of such interest, is a project being undertaken by the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. Deputy Madigan, as Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, uses the data from the inventory to recommend to each planning authority structures for inclusion on its record of protected structures. A total of 45,388 such recommendations have issued to date.

A planning authority must have regard to any recommendations made to it, but ultimately the addition or deletion of a structure to or from the record of protected structures is a reserved function of the elected members of each local authority.

The initial survey for the country has been substantially completed except for Dublin city and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. These two local planning authority areas were consciously left to last as they have a significant record of protected structures, unlike many other counties. However, I understand that both authorities are keen to have the inventory done and recommendations made for their functional areas as an independent review of their existing record of protected structures and to provide a modern data structure for its future management.

I understand that there are approximately 2,000 structures on the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown record of protected structures. In Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, field surveys have been completed for the Glencullen, Shankill, Cabinteely and Foxrock areas. Arising from these surveys, 383 recommendations have been made by the Minister to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, most recently in August of last year. Two further contracts for field recordings in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown are planned for 2018. The first is to be advertised in May. Arising from these, further recommendations to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown will be made by the Minister, Deputy Madigan. As an initial field identification for the area has yet to be completed, and based on current survey numbers with reference to previous surveys of this scale, it will be years before the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown inventory is substantially completed.

The data from the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown surveys will be added to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage website, www.buildingsofireland.ie, in the near future. The website receives approximately 1.5 million page views a year. Although its original audience was seen as owners, building professionals and local authority staff, the experience, from user feedback and questions, is that the website attracts a much wider international audience, often people working on their family history or planning an Irish visit. The Senator is right that there is huge interest in architectural conservation and heritage in our county. I thank him for posing the question earlier.

I thank the Minister of State. We should acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Madigan, is another former Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown councillor, so there are many connections to the area here. I call Senator Boyhan.

I thank the Minister of State. We have a great ally in the Minister, Deputy Madigan, and her record stands as someone who has been supportive of the built architectural heritage. I am delighted that the Minister of State has shared that two more sets of fieldwork are to be undertaken in 2018, which is very positive. I acknowledge the conservation grants that we have received from the Department. It is not enough but it is positive. I thank everyone involved. Maybe the Minister will keep the focus on this issue and keep highlighting it. Together, we can protect this unique built heritage and architecture in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

I thank Senator Boyhan. Does the Minister of State have anything else to add?

There is something interesting for all of us who are from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. I see that my notes here mention the telephone box in Foxrock.

I remember discussing it in my council days.

It was erected in 1926. That shows the wide range of structures across the county. This is thought to be the last surviving example of this type of telephone box in the country.

I do not think it gets a huge amount of use but it is certainly a nice structure to have in the village.

I thank the Minister of State.

Social Welfare Overpayments

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath.

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. While this is no reflection on him, I hoped that the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection would come here because it is under her remit.

The Minister of State will know where I am coming from in terms of trying to solve some problems.

I invited the Minister here today because I am concerned about the situation in which many families find themselves when they discover deceased parents or relatives have been overpaid the non-contributory pension. In the vast majority of cases, no reviews took place to ascertain changes in circumstances and elderly persons had no awareness they were claiming something they were not entitled to. For instance, a person may have had a life insurance policy, a slight increase in an English pension or some other change which, under the strict legislation regarding pensions, would have reduced the weekly payment the person received. I completely understand that to knowingly claim something one is not entitled to is fraud and is not acceptable. The figures that were released earlier this year show that the vast majority of social welfare overpayments occur as a result of mistakes rather than as a result of fraud, which represents only a tiny percentage. We are dealing with people who are elderly and often ill and who have difficulty understanding written communications on changing rules and regulations. We have to have compassion and some room for error in such cases. I have seen bereaved families distraught when their deceased loved ones were criminalised because they had not understood the instructions. One can say they are not criminalised until they come to court but they are deceased people who were straight and honest all their lives but when they passed over their families were told they had done something very wrong. It is really upsetting for people who are already grieving. It is not right. We have to ask if we can reasonably expect a frail elderly person enduring all the health challenges that come with ageing to be aware that a failure or error has occurred. Will the Minister of State ask for compassion and understanding to usurp the need to recover overpayments?

I am also concerned about the fear many elderly people experience when claiming State payments. There has been a huge drive to put people off payments and to recoup everything that can be recouped for the State. Does the Minister of State have any figure for the underpayment of moneys that people are entitled to? Many people are so fearful that they do not claim things they are entitled to. Elderly people, who have contributed much to society, should not have to live in fear of payments being taken from them. These people are made to feel really vulnerable and violated while strangers go through their bank or credit union accounts. They are bombarded with demands for the most private and intimate details. I talk to these people all the time. They are asked for months and months of bank statements and asked if they are sure they do not have other bank or credit union accounts. We have to achieve a better balance in how we treat these people. We do not want people claiming things they are not entitled to but we do not want people frozen in a situation where they do not claim things they are entitled to.

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, I apologise for her absence. I am standing in for her. I am a Minister of State in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection as well as in the Department of Health and the Department of Justice and Equality. The Minister apologises that she has another engagement.

I thank Senator Rose Conway-Walsh for raising this very important issue. It is important that arrangements relating to such matters are highlighted from time to time. I welcome that the Senator has done it. I accept the point she made about compassion and understanding particularly when it comes to our senior citizens and families of people with disabilities.

I have seen that compassion and understanding in respect of payments, for example, the recent restoration of the carer's grant, which 101,000 families claim. Having travelled around the country, though, there are a couple of thousand more people who are not claiming it. We must focus on improving that situation.

The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection processes in excess of 2 million applications for supports each year and makes payments to some 1.4 million people every week. There are many people in the system. The majority of those who are supported by the Department are exercising their legitimate rights and receiving their appropriate entitlements.

Control of abuse of the social welfare system is one of the Department's three high-level functions. Activity in this area is guided by the 2014-18 compliance and anti-fraud strategy. The Department publishes an annual report on how it is achieving its targets and the priority areas for action for the following year.

Overpayments generally arise as the result of a revision in the amount that a customer is entitled to receive. Where fraud has been suspected and a customer is no longer entitled to a payment because he or she returned to work, recovered from an illness or other changes in his or her circumstances, overpayments are most likely to arise.

There are three circumstances in which overpayments can arise after a customer of the Department dies. First, minor overpayments can arise in the days immediately after the death and where notification has not been made to the Department or the death has not been registered. Second and more rarely, overpayments can arise where a family member, agent or other person continues to encash the pension or other social welfare payment due to the deceased. Third, an overpayment of social welfare can be determined during the winding up of the deceased's estate. This can happen when the schedule of the deceased's assets is received in the Department and it is assessed that he or she had been receiving means-tested payments beyond his or her entitlement. This is often the case where the deceased person did not disclose or fully disclose money held in financial institutions, had investments or did not disclose an interest in property or land.

In 2017, there was €14.4 million in overpayments in respect of 517 deceased customers. Of this amount, some €14.3 million was assessed in respect of 408 customers who had undisclosed or underdisclosed assets at the time of their deaths. The average value of these cases was approximately €35,000. The balance of €100,000 in overpayments related to cases where a payment was made after death, with an average value of less than €800 per case. At the end of March 2018, just over €1.6 million was outstanding in respect of all overpayments assessed during 2017.

In addition to its estates unit, the Department has a central debt management service that can provide specialist advice to any person who needs assistance. I trust this information addresses the Senator's question. I will bring the points she raised to the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty.

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He has an understanding and compassion for elderly people, people with disabilities and people who are vulnerable. Will he ensure that a communication goes to the persons who are making these decisions to bear in mind that compassion is needed when dealing with such cases? That could resolve the situation in the main. We are not discussing a great deal of money compared with some of the tax avoidance schemes and so on that we have legally put in place. Going after such a vulnerable cohort of people is wrong.

I appreciate the Minister of State's attendance. We will talk further about this matter.

I thank the Senator for those comments as well as her remarks on this important issue. I endorse her point about communication. The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection has a statutory responsibility. That is essential, particularly when dealing with people who are vulnerable or elderly or who have disabilities. The message must go out that the money goes to the people.

These people are entitled to it as a right as far as I am concerned. The amount of fraud going on is minimal. The Senator is 100% right in respect of tax avoidance and tax evasion in this State and other countries as well. That is a huge issue. If we had a lot of that money we would be able to provide many more services for vulnerable people in society.

Electronic Cigarettes

I thank Senator Conway-Walsh and move on to No. 4 in the name of Senator Catherine Noone, who has four minutes. I think the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, is dealing with this matter as well. It is about e-cigarettes

The Minister of State was in a rush to get away. I was wondering where he was off to. I know e-cigarettes is a topic close to his heart. I hope he was not off for a smoke. I call Senator Noone.

The Minister of State, Deputy McGrath, has seen the debate. I know it is an issue close to his heart, pardon the pun. In light of international studies that have found that smokers who use e-cigarettes tend to smoke less and have increased attempts to quit, what research is being conducted here to test the effectiveness of e-cigarettes in helping Irish smokers quit the habit?

The Minister of State knows that the Healthy Ireland framework is aiming for a tobacco-free Ireland by 2025. That means achieving a smoking rate of less than 5%. The current smoking rate in Ireland is 22%. The HSE welcomes any aid to quitting smoking but due to the lack of conclusive evidence of the long-term effects, it has not recommended e-cigarettes as an aid. I am not an expert in this area. However, besides the fact that I think they look a bit ridiculous, they do seem to be effective. We should have some policy on them.

E-cigarettes in the UK have been endorsed as a quitting tool. There has been a drop in smoking rates there of 4.8% since 2012. Public Health England has stated that e-cigarettes are 95% less harmful than traditional smoking. That is obviously significant. In the UK, one person switches to e-cigarettes every three minutes. The UK now has the second lowest smoking rate in Europe. Public Health England stated that the use of e-cigarettes is associated with increased quitting success rates and has hastened the decline in smoking.

In Ireland in 2017, the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, reported that e-cigarettes are twice as popular and twice as effective at helping people to quit compared with patches, gum and other devices. Of the people who quit smoking last year, 37% used e-cigarettes according to Healthy Ireland. Smoking rates in Ireland have been slow to decrease. It was 23% in 2015 and 2016, and 22% in 2017. I appreciate that wanting to quit smoking is a personal issue for people. However, if we, as a Government, are seeking to attain a tobacco free Ireland, it appears that our nearest neighbour is having a lot of success in this area, notwithstanding the research that needs to be carried out. I would be interested in us at least having a policy on it.

I thank Senator Noone for raising this very important issue. I will be responding on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris. The Senator will be aware that smoking is the greatest single cause of preventable illness and premature death in Ireland. It kills almost 6,000 people a year. Our primary objectives, set out in the 2013 policy document Tobacco Free Ireland, are to denormalise smoking and to protect children from the dangers of tobacco consumption. That policy sets a target for Ireland to be tobacco free - that is, having a smoking prevalence rate of less than 5% - by 2025. The Government and I remain committed to making Ireland tobacco free.

Tobacco Free Ireland contains a number of recommendations to assist smokers in quitting tobacco use. One of those recommendations is to examine the evidence regarding outcomes of the use of nicotine replacement therapy and other approaches. The Department requested that HIQA undertake a health technology assessment of the clinical and cost effectiveness of the pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical smoking cessation products and services. That assessment was published in 2017. It found that all pharmacological interventions were effective compared with no treatment. A prescription-only drug called varenicline was the most effective drug on its own.

Using a combination of varenicline and nicotine replacement therapy was the most effective pharmacological intervention and people using this combination were over 3.5 times more likely to quit than those who were in a control group and did not receive this treatment.

Group behavioural therapy, individual counselling, intensive advice and telephone support were all found to be effective behavioural interventions, with group therapy found to be the most effective of these interventions. The addition of behavioural intervention to a pharmacological intervention improved the effectiveness of the intervention. The HIQA assessment recommended that smoking cessation services should seek to increase the uptake of varenicline, either alone or in combination with nicotine replacement therapy for smokers who want to use pharmacological support.

Although the health technology assessment found that results for e-cigarettes are promising, there is currently a lack of evidence to recommend their use as a smoking cessation aid, and currently no e-cigarette product is licensed as a medical product in Ireland. The safety of e-cigarettes is an evolving area of research. It is potentially safer than smoking but evidence on long-term safety has yet to be established. In the absence of additional evidence confirming the effectiveness of e-cigarettes, the HIQA assessment recommended that the HSE smoking cessation services should seek to increase the uptake of the combination nicotine replacement therapy treatment among those for whom varenicline is not tolerated or preferred.

The results of the HIQA health technology assessment will inform the development of the national clinical guidelines on smoking cessation interventions currently being undertaken by the Health Service Executive in conjunction with the national clinical effectiveness committee. It has also informed policy decisions on potential improvements to the provision of smoking cessation services in the public health service. The Department will continue to monitor the emerging research on all such products so as to inform decisions around any future additional regulation in the area. I thank the Senator for raising this very important matter.

I know the Minister of State did not draft it but I find the response somewhat unsatisfactory. For some time there has been talk that there is not enough evidence in this regard but our nearest neighbours have plenty of evidence to make a policy decision on this issue. I understand these other methods are good and I am personally in favour of the idea of group behavioural therapy, individual counselling, intensive advice and telephone support. This can all obviously be very good. Even on the way here I met one of my colleagues with an e-cigarette in her hand and I stopped to chat to her about it. She said she previously had pleurisy but has not had a cold or any kind of a cough for four or five years whereas she used to have them very regularly. I thought she looked a lot better and she seemed very happy about the change. It is clearly something that works for people but we have no policy in place. People are using these all the time. The response is somewhat unsatisfactory and I will inquire further into the matter. There seems to be enough evidence for our nearest neighbours and I do not see why we cannot collate evidence. I do not see what the problem is.

It is a policy matter. I know many people on e-cigarettes and they have found them very effective. I take the Senator's very valid point because the method works. There is a broader debate and it is essential that I bring the Senator's point to the Minister, Deputy Harris, and the HSE. Having spoken with people, I know this method seems to be effective and it has an impact. The Senator mentioned a 36% reduction in the UK, which is dramatic. If something is out there like that as evidence, the process should be supported. I will bring that strong message back to the Minister.

Sitting suspended at 3.20 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.
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