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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Apr 2018

Vol. 257 No. 8

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on forestry, to be taken at 12.45 p.m. and to conclude not later than 2.30 p.m., with the contribution of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be given not less than six minutes to reply to the debate; No. 2, statements on housing, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 4.15 p.m., with the contribution of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be given not less than six minutes to reply to the debate; No. 3, Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2016 – Committee Stage, resumed, to be taken at 4.40 p.m.; and No. 64, motion 11, Private Members' business, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 3 or at 5.30 p.m., whichever is the later, with the time allocated to the debate not to exceed two hours.

Today, I wish to mention three issues. The first is the horrific case aired on "Prime Time" last night which showed the bravery of a young woman who was raped as a child, along with two other children, in a foster home in Galway. This heroic and brave young woman waved her anonymity so that the perpetrator, Keith Walsh, could be named. The heinous and cruel acts she and other children were subjected to are stomach churning and horrific.

It is Keith Burke.

Is the Senator having a difficulty with the spelling?

Senator Ardagh should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Yes, Keith Burke. My apologies. When children are placed in foster care they are essentially placed in the care of the State through the mechanism of the HSE. Those children are the most vulnerable children in the State and are due the best protection and safeguards the State can afford. The children in Galway were cruelly let down by the State, not 70 years ago, but in the past two decades. How did we allow that to prevail under our watch? There must be an independent investigation into how the HSE handled the case from the date of the initial allegation made by this lady, to date.

There are serious questions to be answered regarding the placement and safeguarding of children in the State. We learned recently in a report into foster services in Dublin South-Central that families were not vetted and in some cases no checks had been carried out for a period of three years. Now we do not need to imagine the damage that can be caused in a three-year period, as the case highlighted on "Prime Time" last night shows exactly the result of such negligence and neglect of children.

Can the Minister be sure that adequate resources are given to Tusla to deal with child protection matters? Do we have enough social workers? Do the social workers have adequate support to deal with their caseload? Do foster families, the majority of whom do fantastic work, have adequate support? Clearly, confidence in the system is diminishing if it is not gone absolutely. What radical changes are going to be made to ensure this does not happen again? The Minister needs to come to the House to address this matter.

The second issue I wish to raise relates to tracker mortgages. I commend the work of the Central Bank today and Members of the Oireachtas, including my own colleagues, Deputy Michael McGrath and Deputy John McGuinness, who have kept the heat on the banks to ensure that those who had their tracker mortgage rates wrongly removed were compensated. I have learned today that a further 3,400 customers have been identified by the Central Bank, bringing the total number of customers affected to 37,100. Many of those people have been compensated and some of the compensation packages have been fair while others have not. I ask the Minister for Finance to ensure the banks implicated compensate fairly and expeditiously those who were wrongly denied their tracker rate.

The third issue I wish to raise relates to the increase in fees for certain courses in Kylemore College, which is run by the City of Dublin Education and Training Board. We have seen increases of 50% for certain courses and those fees cannot be justified where incomes have not been increased on a commensurate level. No forewarning was given to many of the students who were given one month's notice to come up with the extra fees. Ultimately, that is not fair. I call on the Minister for Education and Skills to come to the House to explain why the increases at Kylemore College have been introduced.

About two years ago in this House I asked a question on the HPV vaccine and I was damned by the keyboard warriors-----

Not by the Leader.

No, not by the Leader. I was damned by the keyboard warriors as anti-vaccine, and it has plagued me ever since.

Well, the keyboard warriors can stick this one into their agenda now. I am deeply concerned at the absence of the BCG vaccination, which was used for TB. I understand there are virtually no stocks of BCG left in the country. With the immigration that has taken place over the years, I understand as many as ten people a week are being diagnosed with TB. In addition, the meningitis B vaccine has been denied to some children while other children are getting it. I heard a story yesterday that I found difficult to believe but I verified it. A three year old child is not immunised against meningitis B whereas her four month old sister can be, free of charge.

If the mother wants to have the three year old vaccinated, she has pay to €350. We all know the damage meningitis can do to children. We need the Minister for Health to come in. We need answers on the BCG vaccination and TB. If TB is on the increase we need to see the vaccine made available again. We also need the meningitis B vaccine for young children to be made freely available to all and not just a select few.

On a side issue, as the Leader knows, I have spoken a number of times on the Defence Forces over the last couple of days. This morning I was told that in the Leader's own bailiwick of Cork, members of the Naval Service are waiting months for duty pay. Apparently, the same applies in the Air Corps but not so much in the Army. I ask the Leader to get an answer on that for me. What is the logjam? What is holding it up? When people are depending on something like the family income supplement, it is not good enough that duty pay is not paid in a timely fashion.

I pass on my sympathies to the family of the late John Carroll who was a trade union leader. I have been handed a note saying he passed away recently. He played a huge role in the modernisation of the trade union movement. He was a good friend to my late father.

If I am correct, he served in this Chamber in the same term as Mary Robinson, Ulick Burke and others. He was a Member of the House.

He was indeed. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

I think for about a year.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for that timely intervention. He is correct. Mr. Carroll had a long history with this House.

The eastern region is facing many challenges. Newspapers and the media are talking about the water supply coming from the Shannon to Dublin and tackling the leakage in the city centre. At the same time we are looking at transport challenges. I refer to the MetroLink running from the airport to Swords to Sandyford. Where 40% of the population lives, we are going to see many challenges. I refer to the necessity for joined-up thinking in dealing with these challenges over the next ten years.

On many occasions, Senator McDowell has raised the issue of the metro in the city. I am anxious about it as well and would like to see the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, come to the House for a debate on this major infrastructural proposal. It not only affects Dublin city, but will have a huge impact on the development of our nation. I would be grateful if the Leader, at his earliest convenience, could organisation that debate. We are talking in the region of €3 billion being spent. We have to ensure we are getting value for money. I refer to the Luas green line being closed for a year, and possibly two, and the impact that will have on transport in our city during that period. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Minister would come in to discuss this important matter relevant to his brief. Deputy Ross was in the newspapers this morning in regard to the appointment of judges but it is important that he come into this House to discuss the issues for which he has direct responsibility.

I commend Ms Rachel Barry, "Amy" and "Sarah" for their amazing bravery in reporting the appalling abuse they suffered as children staying in a foster family setting. Anyone who watched "RTÉ Investigates" last night could not help but be really moved and disturbed by Ms Barry telling her story. I commend her for her bravery and the other girls too. We have these isolated cases reported. We should not have to rely on television or the national broadcaster to bring these stories forward. We know that when we watch one such story that there are many more people across this country in the same position. Many of them have never been reported. Others were reported but were never listened to. Others went to the Garda but things were never processed. Like others who survived horrific abuse, their strength and courage is beyond remarkable.

What makes this case even more abhorrent is that the continuation of this abuse was openly facilitated by our State. It was facilitated to continue. As if that was not enough, the trial they had to endure to bring the perpetrator to account inflicted further torture on these young girls. Ms Barry described her experience within the court last night. That has to be changed. We have a responsibility as legislators to do that. I know the Domestic Violence Bill is going through the Dáil this week. However, there is much more we need to do. She went through all that in the trial just for him to get seven and a half years. That is not justice. Surely, no one can argue now against the introduction of sentencing guidelines that should be drafted by a sentencing committee. This would not encroach on the separation of powers or the autonomy of the Bench. However, it would ensure that prison sentences are proportionate to the crime committed. Day after day, we see perpetrators of domestic violence and abuse being let off, being given the most lenient sentences one could imagine and even being given suspended sentences as late as yesterday.

Until we do that, women and children will continue to be failed by this State. An independent inspection must be held as to how and why these children were failed. Was it the lack of social workers? For years, and indeed decades, under successive Governments, it has been said that there are not enough social workers and that the social workers that are there have impossible caseloads. Watching that programme last night, and because we do not have enough social workers or the protection in place, it crossed my mind as to how many children were being raped last night? How many children were being abused last night?

I commend the wonderful foster families that provide loving, secure homes for children. I know many of them personally. The vast majority of foster families really do provide loving, secure homes. However, we are not just talking about foster homes. We are talking about sexual abuse and abuse that happens in and outside many homes across the country. I encourage other families to come forward and to offer their homes to children who can no longer live with their biological parents.

There is an interesting piece in The Irish Times today by Ms Diane Dodds, MEP, of the Democratic Unionist Party. I must say it is rather contradictory.

The Senator seems to be a long way from the microphone.

Good man. That is it.

All this machinery is rather confusing and-----

We will have to get a special microphone for Senator Coghlan's lapel.

If I am that awkward, forgive me.

The Senator is too fat.

It might be my macular edema. I am trying to focus.

(Interruptions).

There is no question of Northern Ireland being used as a bargaining chip in the negotiations, but some form of customs union will be necessary. I believe she understands that, judging by the later part of her article. No one wants to contemplate a collapse and a no-deal situation. She misrepresents many of the statements from the Oireachtas as being an ultimatum, which is not our intention. I do not doubt that the negotiators - the British Minister, Mr. Davis, and his team, and Mr. Barnier and his team - are competent and able people.

However, I agree with Ms Dodds on one matter. The trade talks will be the key to removing a no-deal scenario from the table once and for all. There is no question of a border on the Irish Sea. That is not in our interests either. I mean no disrespect, but our east-west trade is worth more than our North-South trade. That said, of course we want a seamless Border.

People will have to learn to be patient while the negotiations are under way. In any negotiation, there has to be give and take and compromises have to be made. There must be some form of a comprehensive, overall UK-EU customs partnership - a customs union in another guise, under another name or whatever. That would not be beyond the wordsmiths, lawyers and everyone else.

It might be beyond Mr. Davis.

Mr. Davis has an able team as well. I am not referring to him personally. Teams from both sides are working full time in Brussels. To Ms Dodds and all of the DUP, I say that we all must be patient. Ireland cannot negotiate. We are a part of the EU, so we are locked in on that side, but of course we want to maintain our North-South and east-west relationships.

Will the Leader request the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment to-----

I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, but Senator Leyden must be having the same problem with the machinery.

I am sorry. Somehow, the microphones are not as good as they were in the old Seanad.

The Leader is getting very old.

Senator Norris is getting old himself.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment to approve the acquisition of Sappho Limited from Landmark Media Investments by The Irish Times DAC? The proposed acquisition of the Irish Examiner includes the Evening Echo, the Roscommon Herald, the Western People, the Waterford News and Star, the Laois Nationalist, the Kildare Nationalist, the Carlow Nationalist and three radio stations. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, stated that it had cleared the deal following an extensive phase 2 investigation. Under media merger rules, the Minister, Deputy Naughten, must now make a separate assessment of any impact that the deal will have on media plurality. The Irish Times DAC has secured clearance from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, which licenses radio stations.

I will declare a personal interest, that being, the survival of excellent local newspapers like the Roscommon Herald, the Western People and so on in this highly competitive industry.

The Irish Times is an honourable newspaper. It will look after the interests of regional newspapers well and allow them editorial independence and responsibility.

That the Government did not make a decision on the proposed takeover by Independent News & Media, INM, of Celtic Media was a major error, in that it could have put those local newspapers in jeopardy. I call on the Minister to be decisive and approve the deal. He should not allow this to linger. He should not be scared by the reaction to the non-decision on INM and Celtic Media. Grasp the nettle, do not let the horse bolt, make a decision and be decisive. Do not be concerned about criticism from any party. Get the file. It is either "Yes" or "No", but do not wait for two or three months, by which time The Irish Times might have decided to pull out of the deal. That is the danger.

My general impression of this Government is that it is indecisive. It has no strong decision makers from the Taoiseach down. That will be the path it will burn on eventually. Its indecisiveness is evident in the appointment of Ministers of State, which is a strange situation. Ministers of State rotating in that manner never happened before in the history of the State. It was not a good idea.

I call Senator Ó Céidigh.

Senator Leyden was sacked by Albert Reynolds and Charles Haughey when they became taoisigh.

I was appointed more times than I was sacked. I hope the Leader gets appointed at some point, too.

That will never happen anyway.

Would that not be a great-----

(Interruptions).

Senators, please.

We will part the waves, if that is okay.

Appointment and disappointment.

Tá Seanadóir Ó Céidigh ag seasamh.

Tá mé iarraidh ar an t-Aire Iompair, Turasóireachta agus Spóirt, An Teachta Ross, teacht isteach arís ar chúis eile. I support Senator Humphreys regarding MetroLink and its potential effects. The House needs to understand what the plans are and whether there is a plan B, C or D. I raise this matter primarily in respect of the Na Fianna GAA club in the Glasnevin-Drumcondra area. Cumann Lúthchleas Gael has roughly 1 million members, including 500,000 active playing members. Na Fianna has approximately 3,000 members, owns one pitch and is in active use of two other pitches. Removing its pitch will ruin its community and the GAA in the area for at least six years and the schools will be badly affected. In many cases, the GAA is the backbone of various schools' recreational activities. There are a number of primary and secondary schools in the area, including Scoil Mobhí. The club will appear before the transport committee after lunch today to raise its concerns.

I call on the House to support the Na Fianna club in the challenges it faces. As important as that, will the Leader invite the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to the House? I support Senator Humphreys's call in that regard. Senator O'Mahony, whom I spoke with about the situation this morning, also supports the call. He is able to speak for himself on the matter. Will the Leader invite the Minister to tell the House about the options as regards MetroLink?

Unlike some people, I am in favour of a proper rail system for Dublin's north city and county. We have the only international airport in Europe that does not have a rail link. We have been discussing this matter for the past 15 years.

Now we are discussing doing something about it. We need to execute the project while being sensitive of some of the key, core community requirements along the route, in this instance Na Fianna.

Last Friday saw the launch of a new golf course at Adare Manor in Adare, County Limerick. It was also the launch of the J.P. McManus Pro Am 2020. When the previous pro am was held in 2010, it raised almost €50 million for charities across the mid-west. I compliment Mr. McManus and his team of volunteers who are involved in organising the pro am.

Rory McIlroy, Paul McGinley, Pádraig Harrington and Shane Lowry attended on Friday and played 18 holes of golf. Approximately 5,000 spectators were at the launch and witnessed an exhibition of golf. Mr. McManus also announced that he hoped to host the Ryder Cup at Adare Manor in 2026. This proposition was backed by all four of the golfers who were present on the day.

The Ryder Cup was last held in Ireland in 2006. I ask the Leader to speak to the Taoiseach and to the relevant Ministers so that we can have a whole-of-government approach to bringing the Ryder Cup to Adare. Mr. McManus has put a lot of work into his bid application. He has submitted that bid and it is important that the Government would support him in order to promote not only golf, but also Ireland itself.

I note that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, indicated today that he will be opposing new bonuses for senior figures in the banks. The proposal to reintroduce bonuses at AIB is disgraceful and I welcome the fact that the Minister will be opposing it.

I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to debate the issue of tax reliefs. If we are looking at a situation where banks are seeking to restore a bonus culture against the background, for example, of AIB making €1.9 billion in pre-tax profits, then we need to reconsider the fact that they can write off current profits against past losses. It is not appropriate that the construction industry, which is also making substantial profits again, and the banks are able to effectively avoid paying tax and avoid contributing to the State and to the citizens who bailed them out. I would like the Minister to go further than opposing bankers' bonuses and to re-examine the tax reliefs or write offs that are being enjoyed by the banks.

I join Senator Humphreys and the Cathaoirleach in noting the passing of former Senator John Carroll who served in this House between 1981 and 1982. He also made an extraordinary contribution to the trade union movement over almost five decades, with SIPTU and prior to that as vice president and president of the ITGWU. He made a huge contribution in the areas of wage bargaining and payment systems in this State.

As well as his work for the trade union movement, he was also an activist in other areas. He was one of the people who led the campaigning in respect of Carnsore Point and the question of nuclear power. This is an issue of great concern today in the context of the proposed Hinckley Point nuclear power station in the UK, on which Senator Grace O'Sullivan has worked extensively.

I wanted to add my voice to those commemorating John Carroll and the contribution he made to national life. As we note the contribution of trade unionists and the trade union movement to the public good in Ireland and in the context of my call for a debate on taxation and tax reliefs, we need to restore the tax relief for trade union membership, given that other professional bodies enjoy that tax relief.

I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business. I propose that we take No. 17 on the Order Paper before No. 1. We know that LGBT people form loving, stable and committed relationships equivalent to heterosexual families and the people's support for the civil marriage equality referendum was recognition of that fact. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that we can change or eliminate sexual orientation, although there is evidence to say that we can self-label our sexual orientation. However, the outcomes are temporary and always unpredictable. I want to thank the 20 Senators from all sides of this House who have co-signed the Prohibition of Conversion Therapies Bill 2018. This is a Bill that will prohibit conversion therapy as a deceptive and harmful act or practice against a person's sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression.

A couple of month's ago the European Parliament passed a motion that reads as follows: "The European Parliament [...] welcomes initiatives prohibiting LGBTI conversion therapies and banning the pathologisation of trans identities and urges all Member States to adopt similar measures that respect and uphold the right to gender identity and gender expression". Malta has legislated to prohibit the practice of conversion therapy, as have nine American states. The UN Committee Against Torture has expressed its concern over the dangerous and discredited practice. There are organisations providing this service in Ireland. However, the Irish Council for Psychotherapy has stated that efforts to change, manipulate or reverse sexual orientation and-or gender identity through psychological therapies are unethical, in accordance with its guidelines. The State should adopt that position and apply it legislatively. The Prohibition of Conversion Therapies Bill does so.

In terms of LGBT people's experiences of mental health services, a survey by Trinity College and UCD was published in the International Journal of Mental Health Nursing in 2014. That survey noted many negative experiences of mental health services, with 66% of respondents experiencing an assumption that they were heterosexual. A full 29% of respondents experienced a negative reaction when they disclosed their LGBT identity, with 21% reporting comments to the effect that their LGBT identity was "just a phase". Crucially, 13% were advised that their sexual orientation could be changed to a heterosexual one.

Brazil was one of the first countries in the world to prohibit conversion therapy but that decision was overturned recently. Brazilians, more than any other non-EU nationals, come to study in Ireland in large numbers and their influence has been felt and welcomed among our LGBT community. Ireland must be a beacon of hope for people everywhere and it is in that context that I am proposing that we amend the Order of Business and take No. 17 before No. 1.

I support Senator Maria Byrne's call for the Government to support the bid by J.P. McManus to bring the Ryder Cup to Ireland in 2026. We have been very lucky in this country to have had people like Dr. Michael Smurfit and J.P. McManus to drive and promote golf in this country. There are 420 golf courses in Ireland. Indeed, there are more golf courses per head of population here than in any other country in the world. Ireland is also the cheapest place in the world to play golf.

I am delighted that Mr. McManus has decided to put in a bid to host the Ryder Cup in 2026 but he needs the support of the Government. I support Senator Byrne's call for the Government, from the Taoiseach down, to get behind Mr. McManus in his bid to bring the Ryder Cup to Adare Manor in the mid-west. The manor is surrounded by a good road network and there is an airport nearby. It has all of the facilities needed to host such an event.

The last time the Ryder Cup was held here was 2006. In 1997 and 1998 the then Government rowed in behind Dr. Smurfit's efforts to bring the competition to the K Club. A lot of work and advance planning has to be done and we are lucky that Mr. McManus is willing to put his money, his property and his facilities forward in a bid to host what is one of the biggest golfing events in the world, which takes place every two years. There is a great need to disperse tourists when they come here, to encourage them to head west from our eastern seaboard and hosting the Ryder Cup will put us on the world stage. I fully support Senator Byrne's remarks.

Senator Norris is next. I think Clare FM is butting in on the sound system because I am finding it hard to hear the speakers.

I think the Cathaoirleach will probably hear me all right.

I would like to join with colleagues in expressing my sadness at the passing of Mr. John Carroll, a former member of this House, valiant trade unionist and a considerable musician. He was a very fine trumpeter and I well remember in the 1970s that he, along with others like Johnny Logan, very courageously took part in a concert I organised in the Olympia Theatre to raise funds for the legal action I was taking at that point. It was very courageous of him to do so. We managed to succeed in only losing £4 because we had conflicted with a walk led by the ghastly Jimmy Saville.

In those days, I took part in quite a number of protest marches including several organised by the Dublin Housing Action Committee as well as the PAYE marches.

We always had a brass band and it was often led by John Carroll. It was the Amalgamated Transport and General Workers' Union brass band. He is a loss to this community.

I support the call of my colleagues for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, to come to the House to discuss the MetroLink project. I have heard an awful lot of drivel spoken. Only today, I heard two people. Senator McDowell was talking about it. He is concerned and worried, etc. The Senator stated that for the cost of the MetroLink, one could put in ten Luas lines. What a vision. Given that two Luas lines have created havoc and traffic chaos, another ten would be wonderful. I do not know where these people are dragged up from.

Then we had that person, Mr. Colm McCarthy, who is actually an interesting economist. He talked about buses, stating that for the cost of the MetroLink one could flood Dublin with buses. I do not know where Mr. McCarthy lives. He must live under a stone somewhere in Sandycove because if one looks at Nassau Street, it is buses end to end already the entire length of the street. One can hardly squeeze a bicycle between them. I do not know what on earth these two people are talking about - one of them trying to flood the city with Luas lines which cannot possibly work and the other trying to flood them with buses.

The real disaster is we should have built a full underground system in the beginning. The Luas is a catastrophic mistake and we will be paying for it for years. I say that despite the fact it is highly convenient for me. I can get onto it in Parnell Street, whizz down to Dawson Street and trickle across here. On the way home, if I get one marked "Parnell", I can get on in Dawson Street and whizz back up to the northside to within 100 yards of my house. It is convenient for me but it is a disaster for the city.

I hope the Senator's contribution is coming to a trickle as well.

But the Cathaoirleach heard it.

As Cathaoirleach, I rarely, if ever, comment. I lived in London for some years in the 1970s. When I went there first, the closest underground to Heathrow was Hounslow West and they extended that by approximately ten miles. One can go from Heathrow Airport all over. That was done-----

It makes such a difference.

-----without any interference with playing fields, housing, traffic or anything.

Perhaps they had better engineers in the 1970s in England then there are here now.

We have better diggers here.

On the subject of travel, I might extend that. This morning, like colleagues here, I attended a presentation in the AV room by the Passport Office. I compliment and thank the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, for arranging that presentation. It was worthwhile and, indeed, timely because from now on is the time of year when many think of taking a break or going abroad for a holiday to recharge the batteries. The key message that came from the staff of the Passport Office, whom I compliment for their good work, was the request to ask people to check before they book. That is the most important sentence that came out of it. We all know of cases, and many Members are contacted on a daily basis, where people have booked a holiday two weeks or less before they are due to go, only to discover that one of their passports is out of date. We all know the anxiety that particular experience causes people.

As the House will be aware, we have two passport offices in this country - one in Dublin and one in Cork. Unfortunately, as with many services, if one draws a line from Dublin to Galway, they are non-existent north of that line. The Passport Office is yet another example of that. At a time when we are experiencing a rise in the number of applications from Northern Ireland due to Brexit, it is timely that we would look again at locating a sub-office to cater for the northern half of the country. A location such as Monaghan or Cavan would be ideal from a geographic perspective because if one lives in north Derry or north Donegal and has to travel to Dublin, it is a four and a half hour journey. It is timely that we should do that. I ask the Leader to ask the Tánaiste to come in to the Chamber so that we can discuss this issue.

Another simple possible solution to avoid this issue of passports going out of date - the Tánaiste might intervene here - would be if the travel agents and airlines would have a precondition that before accepting a booking they would have to ensure that the passport is in date. A further simple solution would be that the Passport Office would contact individuals, perhaps six months in advance, to advise them of their passport going out of date. It could save travellers a great deal of stress and annoyance. In summary, I ask the Leader to ask the Tánaiste to come to the Chamber to have a discussion on this issue.

Being conscious of the time, I will deal quickly with two issues. First, I formerly second the amendment to the Order of Business that Senator Warfield outlined.

I will touch briefly on last night's "RTÉ Investigates". Without commenting in detail, it is timely and appropriate that we would have the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, come back to the House. The Minister was here previously and we had a long and protracted debate about Tusla. It was clear from last night's programme that those three brave women who had to put in the public domain their story did a service to the people of this country to give confidence to others to be able to come forward and report what is horrific abuse. I pay tribute to "RTÉ Investigates" for the sensitive way in which it dealt with that particular programme.

I ask the Leader if he would consider, when appropriate, in the timescale the Minister has available to her, that she could come specifically to talk about progress regarding Tusla and maybe to touch on some of the commitments that the Minister gave us on her last visit here when she talked about the need to increase the number of social workers. The Minister explained that she was seeking further funding from Government. In last night's programme, yet again, we heard stories from people regarding the shortage of social workers. That is not the Minister's fault. That is not the Government's fault. We need to be seen. We need to do everything possible to train, secure, fund and resource social workers to support children who are in care who cannot be fostered for various reasons, but also to monitor and act as an advocate and a link for them within the social services.

Finally, Senator Conway.

I support Senator Maria Byrne in her call that the Government should support J.P. McManus's bid to host the Ryder Cup. It would be phenomenal for the mid-west if that were to happen. I would also like the Government to see if it can facilitate Lahinch in County Clare hosting the Irish Open next year. I believe it probably has an excellent chance of succeeding. Certainly, that would help my region, the west of Ireland and County Clare if it happened.

Like Senator Boyhan, my main purpose for speaking today is to commend the bravery of those who appeared on "RTÉ Investigates" last night and to commend Ms Aoife Hegarty and the "RTÉ Investigates" team for the incredible work they are doing in exposing serious wrongs in the State. It is only a short few weeks ago that there was a public outcry over a bishop saying a mass at a particular priest's funeral, and rightly so. That outcry was correct and proper, but I have not yet heard of anybody resigning from the HSE over what happened in this particular case.

I believe that people should be held accountable. It is not good enough. There comes a time when heads need to roll and accountability has to apply and be seen to apply. It is simply not good enough that those people were put through what they have been put through. This is not the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s or 1990s. This is only a few years ago. It is time our society learned and that heads rolled and people lost their jobs over the decisions they make. It is appropriate that we should have the Minister for Health and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs in here to debate the protocols that are in place.

This is only a few years ago and who is to say it is still not happening? As a society, can we say vulnerable children are not being left in dangerous situations?

Before I call on the Leader, I wish to pay tribute to the late John Carroll, who was appointed to the Seanad in, I believe, 1981. It was an interesting Seanad and among the 11 Taoiseach's appointees were James Dooge and four Labour Party Senators, including Timmy Conway. the late John Carroll, Pat Magner and Paddy Dunne. Jim Higgins was also there, as was T. K. Whitaker, a man I had the good fortune to meet and for whom I had great admiration, though he took no Whip. May Mr. Carroll rest in peace. I am sure the Leader will arrange for a tribute to him at a later date.

I join with the Cathaoirleach and other Members in expressing sympathies to the family of the late John Carroll, who was appointed to this House in 1981. He was a giant within the trade union movement and for those of us who grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, he was a familiar face on television, not to mention a voice on radio, advocating for union members, collective bargaining and the rights of workers. His role in the amalgamation of the IGTWU and the Federated Workers Trade Union, which became SIPTU, brought him much acclaim within the trade union movement. He was a person of huge intellect and compassion and a man who focused on the rights of workers and the most vulnerable in our society. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party, I offer the deepest condolences to his family on his sad passing.

Senators Ardagh, Conway-Walsh, Boyhan and Conway raised last night's "Prime Time" programme. I did not see the programme in its entirety as I was on "The Late Debate" with Senator Higgins on the radio but we certainly owe a debt of gratitude to the three women involved for their bravery in allowing their anonymity to be waived in order to shine a light on the harrowing experience they had. It is far too easy to issue words of condemnation but this should not be happening in our society. I agree with Senator Conway that somebody must be held to account for what happened. There is no excuse. We can blame systems or a lack of social workers. We can blame a lack of money or we can say there was too much money but there was a failure of accountability which needs to be dealt with. Three lives have been ruined and, as the Senators said, it is important we learn from this and put in place safeguards to protect the most vulnerable. In this case, it was young children in foster care, which is meant to be a safe and secure environment and it is unacceptable that an apology was only issued by the HSE on foot of a "Prime Time" programme. I do not try to be populist and there are very good people working in Tusla who are doing a tremendous job, but this is unacceptable.

I would be very happy for the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, to come to the House to discuss the matter. When I was Chairman of the health committee, I worked with the first Minister for Children and Youth to sit at Cabinet, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. We dealt with the Children First guidelines and put in place HIQA and we all thought we would see an end to the inept maltreatment of children in care. It is harrowing to read the reports this morning. It is not all about money because the budget for Tusla was increased and 300 new staff were recruited. If there is a deficit of social workers, why is that the case? We must draw a line under this awfully upsetting era. It is about people who are vulnerable being treated appallingly. I agree with Senator Conway-Walsh that they were let down by the State. There is a duty of care on all of us and a duty to hold people to account. We, in these Houses, are held to account by the electorate, whether by popular vote in the Lower House or election to the Seanad, and it is about time there was accountability for people who operate and manage services. I appreciate the good work that is done by many people but we must not allow this to continue.

Senator Ardagh asked about tracker mortgages. I commend the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, and the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach on their work in this area. The Taoiseach said the behaviour of banks towards people on tracker mortgages was scandalous. The banks have been dragging their feet and there is a human cost, as we are beginning to see. People have lost their homes and investment properties and there are mental health and well-being implications to that. I hope we can bring resolution to this as these are human beings. We require banks to work with them and for trust to be re-established.

Senator Ardagh also raised an issue regarding Kylemore College. I am sure it is a matter for the ETB in Dublin but any increase in costs needs to be justified. I hope we do not preclude people from entering or returning to education.

Senator Craughwell raised the HPV and BCG vaccinations. Yesterday was World Meningitis Day and one in five of 24 and 25 year olds can die from contacting meningitis so it is important that we have a vaccination programme. A new social media campaign, #24youhavethepower, was launched to coincide with the day and when he was Minister for Health, the Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, introduced free meningitis B vaccinations for infants, making us only the second country in Europe to do that. We also need a strong campaign around vaccination. The BCG vaccination for TB expired three years ago, in 2015, and an independent immunisation group established that the vaccination was not advisable but I would be happy for the Minister to come to the House to debate the issue. We will have a debate on the Defence Forces next week. It is disappointing to hear that there are members of the Naval Service, the Army and the Air Corps who are not receiving their pay. Duty payments should be made promptly and expeditiously.

Senators Humphreys, Ó Céidigh and Norris asked about the MetroLink, as Senator Ardagh did on the Order of Business yesterday. I am happy for the Minister to come to this House on the issue. There is a consultation process until 11 May in which members of the public can submit their views and opinions and a number of public consultation meetings will take place. I ask all Members to advise people to go along and make their views known.

As I said yesterday, I fully understand the concerns of Members, the residents and members of Na Fianna about the implications of this for them and, in the case of the sporting club, for the GAA. It is important that we have a conversation around public transport and connectivity. I pose the question to Senator Norris: what would an underground Luas have cost? It is easy to come in here and say we should do it, but what would be the cost of that? Perhaps that debate needs to be happen and I would be happy to have the Minister, Deputy Ross, come to the House to debate it as quickly as possible.

Senator Paul Coghlan raised the issue of Brexit. We will have a debate on that in the House next week.

I wholeheartedly concur with Senator Leyden in welcoming the decision by the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission to allow for the proposed merger of The Irish Times and the Irish Examiner and the ancillary and affiliated companies and radio stations. It is a merger we need to see happen quickly. I commend the Crosby family who have been involved with the Irish Examiner, then the Cork Examiner, since 1872. I thank them for their huge commitment to the people of Cork, and of Ireland, since they commenced their involvement in the Irish Examiner as it is now. It is fair to say that the Evening Echo and the Irish Examiner are synonymous with Cork. I certainly hope that the titles can be retained and that we continue to have excellent coverage of current affairs and sport in the Irish Examiner, the Evening Echo and the other newspapers the Senator referenced. I hope the Minister, Deputy Naughten, will approve the merger quickly so that we can have continuity and certainty as well as the retention of jobs. I commend the Crosby family and all who worked and work in the Irish Examiner and the Evening Echo in Cork.

I disagree with the Senator on one issue. Members of this Government have courage and conviction. The proof of that is that our economy is recovering.

I did not say-----

There are more people back at work today-----

The Leader is misinterpreting me.

-----than ever in the history of the State.

I said they were indecisive.

It is called good Government and good leadership.

I ask the Senator to reflect upon that. Indecision refers to the Government his leader was a member of for 14 years that tried to buy its way out of trouble.

The Leader should see the highway down to Cork-----

Senator Byrne, Senator Paddy Burke and Senator Conway raised the issue of Adare Manor. I congratulate J.P. McManus on Adare Manor and support Senator Byrne's request to have Government support the Ryder Cup bid for 2026. It would be an incredible event in Limerick and would bring an economic benefit in terms of tourism to our country. We only have to consider the coverage we would get of it across the world in terms of the imagery, the promotion and the selling of Ireland as a place where one can play golf cheaply, as Senator Burke said, but on world renowned courses. It would be an extraordinary event to host in Adare Manor. I commend J.P. McManus for his willingness to become part of many events in Limerick to support charities, whether it is educational bursaries, sporting clubs or to help vulnerable people in society. We can criticise people but, to be fair to him, he has always been to the fore in supporting causes in the Limerick region.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins raised the issue of tax relief. I would be happy to have that debate as part of future debates in the House.

I am happy to accept Senator Warfield's amendment to the Order of Business. I commend him for bringing forward the Bill. We will not have the debate now but his contribution to the Order of Business is one we should support. As Leader of the House, I was happy to co-sign the Bill and be associated with it because it is an important debate. It is also about leading change, not just in this country but across the world. I commend him for his work on that.

Senator Gallagher raised the issue of the passport office. The Senator's second suggestion on the issue of the precondition for booking should be taken up. I had an experience in early January when I was taking a flight. I arrived at the gate. I knew my passport expired in March but I was told I might not be able to travel. It is about awareness. The Senator has put forward a very good idea and I support him on that.

Equally, the issue of a new passport office is one we need to examine because of a growing population. We have an office in Dublin and one in Cork, which is an excellent facility. I thank the people who work in the Cork passport office because they do tremendous work in terms of their dedication, delivery and courtesy. There is merit in the Senator's suggestion to open the passport office in another venue. As a way of explaining his request, he might raise it as a Commencement matter. His second suggestion is one on which we should go to the Minister in unison and say it is a way of alerting people because the number of people who on the day of travel, or the week before, discover their documents are not in order is surprising and alarming. I suppose it is a sign of a recovering economy that people are travelling again. The Senator's suggestions are worth mentioning.

I referenced Senator Boyhan in terms of the case he raised. It is important that the Minister, Deputy Zappone, comes to the House.

Senator Conway raised the issue of Lahinch and the Irish Open. I would be happy to lend my support to that suggestion as well.

Senator Fintan Warfield proposed an amendment to the Order of Business that: "No. 17 be taken before No. 1". The Leader has indicated he is prepared to accept this amendment. Is the amendment agreed? Agreed.

Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.
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