Skip to main content
Normal View

Select Committee on Justice and Equality debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2017

Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Supplementary)

I ask members to turn off their phones for the reasons that are often stated. The purpose of this meeting of the select committee is to consider the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána. I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, and his officials. Before we begin, I am obliged to remind Deputies of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind the committee that this room is available to us for our use for 45 minutes only. That is the maximum provision for the address of this matter. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to be here this morning. I thank the committee for making time available to consider the important Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána Vote. A Supplementary Estimate of €44.2 million is required in respect of the Garda Vote in 2017. It is projected that there will be an underspend of at least €25.5 million in the remaining seven Votes in the Justice and Equality group. This will reduce the net additional Exchequer funding requirement to approximately €18.7 million.

An additional €50.4 million is being made available to meet payroll and overtime costs. The additional requirement in respect of pay and allowances is €8 million and the additional requirement in respect of overtime is €42.4 million. The increased overtime requirement relates directly to the measures taken to combat organised crime and other serious crime. The costs associated with the implementation of the Labour Court agreement on Garda pay are also a contributory factor. The partial offsetting of the additional requirement by underspends in other votes reflects the commitment given by the Department in meeting the partial cost of the Labour Court agreement for 2017. It is expected that total expenditure on Garda overtime in 2017 will exceed €130 million, which is unprecedented. This compares with overtime expenditure of €91 million in 2016, €56 million in 2015 and €37.7 million in 2014. Budget 2018 provides for almost €100 million in overtime next year. Overtime worked in December will be paid from the 2018 budget rather than the 2017 Estimate, which we are discussing this morning.

There are additional requirements in a number of other administrative subheads, including travel and subsistence, expenses associated with road traffic policing, training and other expenses, maintenance of Garda premises and certain other station services. These costs amount to almost €12 million when offsetting underspends in other areas such as telecommunications services are taken into consideration.  A further additional requirement of almost €2.7 million arises under the communications and other equipment subhead. This relates primarily to increased costs in respect of operational equipment, mainly in specialist areas such as the armed response units.

There are offsetting underspends in other areas within the Garda Vote, such as superannuation. The underspend in this area can be attributed to a smaller than expected number of retirements. In addition, there are surplus receipts of approximately €14 million. The largest proportion of these receipts, by far, relates to a greater than envisaged number of pension-related deductions as a direct result of increased expenditure on pay and overtime. This Supplementary Estimate will make these additional receipts available to offset a proportion of the overtime and payroll cost.

A further aspect of this process is the reallocation of an underspend of €8 million in capital expenditure from the buildings subhead. Some €6.7 million is being reallocated to the area of information and communications technology, ICT, and a further €1.3 million is being reallocated to the transport area. The underspend relates to the timing of the completion of new Garda divisional and regional headquarters in the Kevin Street area of Dublin and in Galway. These buildings will be completed by the end of the first quarter of 2018, following the completion of the new divisional headquarters in Wexford in September of this year. The additional budget allocated to ICT will ensure a total capital spend of over €40 million in this area in 2017, including expenditure on a number of key systems such as rosters and duty management, investigations management and enterprise content management. These projects are key components of the Garda Síochána modernisation and renewal programme.

The additional €1.3 million for transport will bring expenditure on the Garda fleet to over €5 million in 2017. This follows expenditure of €10 million in 2016, which allowed for the purchase of 462 vehicles. I am pleased to say the Government's capital plan for the period from 2018 to 2021 provides for a further €31 million for direct investment in the Garda fleet. The additional amounts made available to ICT and transport in 2017 are bringing expenditure in these areas forward, in effect, with the corresponding budget being reassigned in 2018 to complete the building projects. The utilisation of the capital budget in this manner ensures prudent use of available resources on a multi-year basis.

The Government is committed to ensuring a strong and visible police presence throughout the country to maintain and strengthen community engagement, provide reassurance to citizens and deter crime.  The substantial increase in Garda numbers is a demonstration of tangible progress in achieving the Government's vision of an overall Garda workforce of 21,000 personnel by 2021, comprising 15,000 Garda members, 2,000 Garda Reserve members and 4,000 civilians working in An Garda Síochána. This continued high level of investment in the Garda workforce will ensure the vision of an overall workforce of 21,000 by 2021 remains on track. A further 800 new Garda recruits will enter the Garda College in 2018. An additional 500 civilians will be recruited to fill critical skills gaps across the organisation and facilitate the redeployment of gardaí from administrative and technical duties to front-line operational duties.

I am pleased to say this investment is yielding results in a number of successful Garda operations, such as Operation Hybrid, which will continue apace throughout 2018. As of 31 October last, 71 arrests and 11 charges - three for related offences - have been brought in connection with gangland-related shootings. In addition, 30 firearms have been seized and over 14,260 lines of inquiry have been conducted.

In the region of 44,500 high-visibility checkpoints have been implemented with significant support from the armed support units. A significant amount of closed-circuit television footage, mobile phone traffic and forensic evidence is being examined.

Concentrated Garda actions against criminal gangs have been illustrated by a number of notable successes this year, with a series of very significant drug seizures, valued at over €79.5 million. This includes the huge haul of illegal cannabis valued at €37.5 million seized at Dublin Port in January this year and, more recently, a significant seizure on 15 November valued at €7 million. Rural communities are also benefitting from the significant injection of policing resources provided by the Government and the concentrated initiatives, such as Operation Thor. As part of the Garda approach, special targeted patrols are carried out with the assistance of the Garda national support services against criminals committing crime inter-regionally, including a focus on the use of the motorway network by criminal gangs, to disrupt and arrest those involved. These initiatives have provided a most beneficial return in the Government's investment in resources and we will continue to back that up by strengthening the necessary legislative provisions where required to ensure the multifaceted response to crime in all its forms is maintained.

The underspends across the other seven Votes in the justice group have reduced the net additional Exchequer requirement for the Supplementary Estimate to approximately €18.7 million. The savings mainly arise in the Justice and Equality Vote, largely accounted for by payroll savings. The full-year cost of additional recruitment during 2017 will not materialise until 2018. There are underspends in a number of programme areas, including the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS. I recommend this Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána Vote to the committee and I am happy to address queries that members may have.

I reiterate that we only have use of this committee room until 9.45 a.m. As there are six members present, I propose a two-minute limit on every contribution. We have never had to apply that before. That will take up the half hour if members want to utilise this opportunity.

I will take less than two minutes. I thank the Minister for coming in. It is important the overtime is available for gardaí throughout the country between now and the end of the year. Why has the overtime increased so significantly? In 2014 it was €37 million but in 2017 it will be €130 million. What is the reason for the enormous increase?

Quite frankly, it is an increased demand on overtime having regard to the very serious criminal situation, particularly in the city of Dublin. The Garda is anxious to ensure every available resource is at its disposal, particularly in the context of gangland matters. Members are aware that particularly in parts of Dublin, there is an unprecedented challenge in terms of organised crime, including an escalation in gangland violence. We always have the threat from international terrorism, which is something of which we should be mindful in the context of European Union neighbours.

Overtime expenditure in 2016 was €91 million, compared with €56 million in 2015. As I stated, the expenditure this year is expected to be over €130 million. It is important to note, however, that €28 million of this increase is accounted for by the cost of the Labour Court agreement on Garda pay. It is important to note that overtime cannot be taken in isolation to other resources available to An Garda Síochána. There needs to be a scheme of management in order to ensure overtime does not escalate on an annual basis in the way it has in recent years. That is particularly offset by the ongoing programme of recruitment. I was in Templemore in September and saw 180 newly attested, ambitious and energetic gardaí, all of whom have been allocated to stations across the country. I look forward to being there next week to witness a further 200 graduating. As the recruitment continues apace and the newly attested Garda members take their positions across the country, the question of the escalating overtime must be considered in that arrangement.

The Minister mentioned criminal activity as a reason for the increased overtime. Has any work been done with regard to the number of gardaí out sick, particularly those out with work-related stress? Has there been an analysis of the costs of that and the impact this has? If people are out sick, they must be covered by overtime.

I do not have immediate figures for the numbers of gardaí currently out sick. I would be keen to ensure there would not be any particular spike in that area without there being a corresponding reason. Having regard to the fact that since the Garda College in Templemore has reopened, 1,400 newly recruited members of the Garda Síochána have been put to work on the streets. That process will continue apace. Next year there will be 800 recruits. I mentioned in my statement the importance of noting the introduction of the new recruits and retirements within the Garda Síochána. This year, the number of retirements is somewhat less than in other years. The number is usually approximately 300 but we are heading to the end of November and the figure is in the region of 270. This is also taken into account in the context of the allocation of resources.

My question related to people being out sick. If we recruit people and they end up being stressed at work or in a difficult position with respect to bullying, harassment and so on, they might end up out sick. There has been no analysis of the number of Garda staff out sick, particularly those out with work-related stress. I know it has been brought to the Minister's attention that in a number of cases, people have been inaccurately recorded as being sick but they are out with work-related stress. Is there any analysis of it?

My next question relates to expenditure in the disclosures tribunal and the committee established essentially to filter the information from An Garda Síochána going to that tribunal. Is that an extra cost category?

My final question relates to the underspend in INIS. What is the cost of Operation Gull? How much is being spent and how many Garda resources are being used on it? It is a process involving co-operation on the Border relating to immigration or migration. I am not really sure what they are at, to be honest. How much is being spent on that and is it envisaged that it will increase with Brexit?

The underspend in INIS relates to staff recruitment. Having regard to the ongoing programme of recruitment for INIS, it is envisaged that this will correct itself and it will be rebalanced for 2018.

I would be very happy to engage with Deputy Clare Daly or other members on an analysis of the suggestions from her that there would appear to be an inordinate number of gardaí out sick. I would share her concern if there has been a spike. I do not have the figures with me but I am happy to provide them to the Deputy. The Garda has a comprehensive anti-bullying policy and this includes the provision of welfare services and external counselling services where required. As far as these human resources and personnel matters are concerned, there are robust practices and procedures in place.

However, if the Deputy has evidence of a rise in these figures I would be happy to engage and ensure that a proper analysis is done.

I was not saying there was a rise. I was asking if there was one, so I would be grateful if we could have those figures afterwards.

Yes. I would be happy to do that.

I thank Deputy Daly.

I am sorry but the disclosures tribunal question was not answered.

Please, Minister.

I want to point to the work of two retired members supporting the disclosures tribunal co-ordination office, which is based in Garda Headquarters. The office has one full-time member. It has seconded that person temporarily from the Office of Corporate Communications. A number of additional personnel are facilitating the work on an ad hoc basis. Liaison persons have also been nominated from the relevant sections to deal with specific requests for the tribunal in accordance with those requests. It is understood that one of the rehired former members has recently left that position and the other contract will terminate this week in accordance with the sanction, but I assure the Deputy that the work within the office is proceeding in line with demands.

I am sorry but is there any information on the cost of Operation Gull?

On the cost to date for Operation Gull, I will provide the Deputy with the figures on that.

It may be apparent but I want to get absolute clarity on the issue of the overtime. It may be an operational matter for the Garda but on the basis of what has been provided here, can it be said that the announced ban on overtime, apart from specific operations, in the Dublin metropolitan region will continue between now and the end of the year or will it be rectified and overtime be available to members of An Garda Síochána? I take the opportunity to commend the gardaí on their considerable successes in recent months in tackling organised crime.

Regarding Deputy Daly's points, it is a surprise to me that there is an underspend in the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS. Two years after the enactment of the International Protection Act and at a time of a refugee crisis one would imagine that there should be considerable pressure on the INIS budget. It is a surprise to me and a source of concern, but I hope that will be rectified next year.

With regard to the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, I wish to assure the committee that the underspend is in respect of recruitment of staff. We are keen to ensure that there is a full complement of staff and that the resources allow for increases where appropriate. As we head towards the end of the year, the recruitment programme has not been completed in the manner in which it might otherwise have been but I am satisfied that as we go into the new year and into the 2018 budget, and as the current vacancies are filled, those figures will correct themselves. I would not like a view to be formed that there is any form of constriction in the matter of resources available to INIS. This is purely in the area of the recruitment of staff. Recruitment of staff is under way. I would expect that the vacancies will have been completed by the spring of next year and that the figures will correct themselves.

Overtime is an issue that has been in the public domain arising from a leaked circular referring to the cancellation of overtime. It was suggested in the media that overtime would not be available to members of An Garda Síochána between now and the end of the year. I am happy to report that that is not so. I wish to reassure people who may have been concerned by these reports that the funding is being made available to gardaí to ensure that people are safe in their homes, and particularly on the streets, during the midwinter and Christmas period. There are issues for the gardaí in terms of the management of the funds but we are dealing in real time with a situation where there is a sum of money available for Garda overtime to the order of €130 million for this year, much of which has been expended, and the overtime bill for December 2017 will be a matter for the 2018 budget. Those funds are fully available. I wish to advise members that the management of the Garda funding and the prudent managing of Garda resources is a matter for the Garda Síochána.

I understand and appreciate that but the budget for Garda overtime is global, taking in all the divisions, and leaked or not, I presume the circular was accurate. As far as the Minister understands it, will there now be a change in the position in the Dublin metropolitan region and will overtime be available in that district?

Yes. I wish to assure the committee that following receipt of the report in the media, officials in my office immediately contacted the Office of the Garda Commissioner. There appears to have been some form of misunderstanding. I wish to assure members that there will be funding available for Garda overtime for the December period. Obviously, I do not allocate overtime for gardaí, no more than I suggest to gardaí where actual policing endeavours might be undertaken, but I am satisfied, following discussions at the highest level yesterday, that any misunderstanding or misinterpretation has been cleared up and that there will be a provision of overtime for gardaí over the festive period in December.

I thank the Minister and Deputy Ó Laoghaire. I call Deputy Mick Wallace.

Will the Minister accept that in any business or organisation, in terms of value for money for costs and work output, the optimum is having people working approximately 40 hours a week? Would there be an acceptance that if overtime is spiralling out of control, more personnel should have been recruited? I accept recruitment is starting to increase again but is there an acceptance that the number working in An Garda Síochána was allowed to slip too low given that we get more per hour out of someone working 40 hours per week than someone working 50 hours per week? That is the same in all workplaces. Likewise, in terms of cost, as a rule, time and a half is paid after 39 or 40 hours. Is there an acceptance that this could have been managed better in recent years?

I do not often agree with Deputy Wallace, as the record will show, but he is absolutely right that there was something of a challenge having regard to the cessation of recruitment and the closure, albeit temporarily, of the Garda training college. That resulted in a situation where gardaí were retiring on an annual basis but no new recruits were coming on-stream. Thankfully, we are gone beyond that and since the Garda College reopened, we have seen a total of 1,400 new Garda recruits, all of whom are now working across the country as fully fledged members of An Garda Síochána. We have in the region of 800 recruits on an annual basis and we have the funding to allow a further 800 next year.

Allowing for a retirement cohort of approximately 300, I estimate this will give us a net extra 500 gardaí on the streets throughout the country. By the end of this year, I expect the total figure to be approximately 13,500. We are working steadily towards the target of a total workforce of 21,000 by 2021.

Of course, the Deputy is right and I understand the point he is making. New gardaí coming out of Templemore, fully attested and assigned their duties, should release the pressure on Garda overtime. We will have more numbers in stations and a greater level of visibility. That will allow the Garda to manage the overtime in a way that is somewhat different to the current situation.

I agree that in terms of quality of life, the optimum is something in the region of a 40-hour week. That is accepted throughout the economy and society. A situation where we have a permanent built-in overtime allowance might conflict with what might be regarded as a normal week's work. I expect that as more recruits come on-stream and as the numbers rise steadily – they will continue to rise steadily - in the coming years, we will have less reliance on an overtime bill. Deputy Wallace is suggesting that bill is spiralling out of control.

The Minister has referred to an underspend in the area of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, as well as a recruitment issue there. We were aware this time last year, if not earlier, that there was a recruitment issue in this area. Why has there been a problem in getting the numbers required to deliver this service?

The Deputy will be aware that the jobs market now is somewhat different from what it was some years ago. In recent years, we have succeeded in bringing down unemployment from a high of 15.2% to almost 6% now. That means there are job opportunities for people and choices that were not available at other times. That has put considerable pressure on some aspects of the public service in terms of recruitment.

I am satisfied, on the basis of the figures available, that the recruitment of an appropriate number of staff to INIS will continue apace. We have new requirements in respect of the passenger information unit as well. I have looked at a profile of the personnel within INIS. There is something of a turnover and something of a challenge with people leaving to take up other career opportunities. It seems to me that if we can succeed in the recruitment campaign then the figures for 2018 will be readjusted in such a way as to reflect the spending of the moneys available this year that were not spent.

I remind the Minister that, while the national average might be at the 6% mark, the figure is over 15% in Wexford. If the Department is finding it difficult to recruit people, officials might go down to Wexford to look for some staff.

Deputy Wallace is a fine example of Wexford manhood.

The Minister referred to underspend in a number of programme areas. Can he identify other programmes where there is underspend?

I am keen to ensure that we continue with the programme to roll out a new and modern Garda fleet. The Deputy will be aware of the fleet on the motorways, in particular between here and Wexford, Cork and Limerick. The Garda has high-powered Audi Q7 vehicles and other high-powered vehicles to ensure it is in a position to meet head-on the challenges posed by criminals.

Deputy Wallace referred to employment in Wexford. I have heard the Deputy and my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Kehoe, speak on this issue. Deputy Wallace will be pleased to hear that I intend visiting Wexford at the earliest opportunity to perform the official opening of the new Garda headquarters in Wexford. That is a fine example of cutting-edge technology and a building being made available to An Garda Síochána as part of an ongoing building programme. I hope to see the programme take on extra urgency next year in the context of outstanding Garda headquarters in Sligo, Clonmel, Macroom and throughout the country, including Wexford. I will ensure that we have consequential follow-up on the new Garda station.

I am pleased to note that the new courthouse and court facilities in Wexford are almost completed as well. I assure the Deputy that, from the justice perspective, every effort will be made to ensure first-class facilities are made available in the constituency of the Deputy, and I thank him for making continuous representations on this matter.

I was not asking about that. The opening of a new police station and a new courthouse does not change the fact that we have 15% unemployment. I asked the Minister to identify other programmes where there was an underspend. Perhaps he cannot. I will move on to my last question.

Perhaps the Minister has a response.

A number of savings have been made in broad terms. The savings in the Property Registration Authority come to €1 million and the savings in the Valuation Office come to a little less than €1 million. The underspend is mainly pay-related. The full-year cost of additional recruitment during 2017 will not materialise until next year. The main underspend relates to INIS. Again, the saving in that area will be largely offset by overspends in areas such as the criminal legal aid scheme.

I have a final question for the Minister. Did someone in the Department have to sign off on the extra costs attached to the special legal team of the former Commissioner, Nóirín O’Sullivan, to deal with the Charleton inquiry? We are aware of the fact that the head of Garda human resources, John Barrett, opposed it and said it was not a good idea. Given this decision was going to cost money, did someone in the Department have to sign off on that from a procedural point of view? Can the Commissioner of the day do as she sees fit in this area?

I do not have specific details on that issue. I would be happy to engage further on that, as needs be.

I thank the Minister for coming in. On the issue of Garda overtime, I welcome the fact that the Garda has had several successes this year. Can the Minister explain the communications between the Department and senior management of An Garda Síochána that allowed such a circular to be distributed to chief superintendents? There is a clear contradiction between what the Minister has elaborated on today and the elaboration of the Taoiseach yesterday on the one hand and what was circulated to the chief superintendents on the other. Clearly the Department and the Minister were either not aware or did not approve that circular. What communications took place around overtime? How could such misinformation enter the public domain yesterday, when there appears to be overtime and a smooth process, as the Minister has said today?

The episode gave the wrong message at the wrong time. There was concern across many communities in Dublin and beyond. Can the Minister explain the internal backdrop to such a misunderstanding and how it happened? It is important that such a circular is not distributed again. I hope it can be rectified internally with what the Minister is doing today. What happened yesterday was of concern to many people and gave concern to many gardaí who get overtime weekly.

I am not sure how it escalated to the degree it did without any explanation.

I acknowledge that concern. I was also very concerned which is why I was anxious matters would be clarified at the earliest opportunity. Officials from my Department were in contact early yesterday morning with the office of the Garda Síochána Commissioner. Of course, it is not a Department circular; we are not required to sign off on internal Garda circulars. However, coming towards the end of the year all organisations and companies are looking at their financial expenditure over the course of the year. Garda overtime is an issue that has been the subject matter of great interest across An Garda Síochána. The Government is keen at all times to ensure sufficient funds are made available in order to meet the demands of security within the State. I re-emphasise that we are dealing with an unprecedented sum of €120 million for Garda overtime. The manner in which this is expended on overtime across the country, including in this city, is entirely a matter for An Garda Síochána.

There has been ongoing contact between the Department of Justice and Equality, An Garda Síochána and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform over recent months in order to ensure that sufficient funding was made available to meet the requirements of the Christmas season. I share the Deputy's concern. This was an internal memo that found its way into the public domain in a manner that caused alarm across communities. I understand that a press release providing clarification was issued consequent to officials in my Department speaking directly to senior officials in the office of the Garda Commissioner. I assure the Deputy that there is no absolute ban on overtime during the Christmas period.

Can the Minister explain-----

Unfortunately, this will have to be Deputy Chambers's last point. I ask the Minister to make a very succinct reply as it is now 9.45 a.m.

How did the escalation occur internally? Was there a refusal or reluctance in the Department to authorise the overtime? Did that internal Garda memo issue to escalate matters between the Department and the Garda? How did it reach the cliff edge? Why was such a memo released? Did the Department inform the Commissioner's office? How long ago did the Minister inform them that this Supplementary Estimate would occur? Why was that memo released in the interim period? Surely they were informed in advance of the memo being released that the overtime would be authorised through the normal process, as it is every year - as it is in the Department of Health and in other areas.

I am not privy to how internal Garda memoranda are produced. However, the Garda is well aware, as is the committee, that An Garda Síochána must remain within the overtime budget provided to it and, of course, that budget is kept under constant review. The budget for 2018 starts in December. I am sure the Garda was well aware of that as the Department of Justice and Equality was. I assure the Deputy and members of the public that policing services will continue, including tackling organised crime, through Operation Hybrid with its importance in the Dublin metropolitan region and Operation Thor across the country. Overtime will be available if and when required.

I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate.

Top
Share