Select Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport debate -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2017

Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport (Supplementary)

Chairman

Members are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting their mobile phones are turned off completely or switched to aeroplane, safe or flight mode, depending on their device. It is not sufficient for members just to put their phones on silent mode because this will maintain a level of interference with the broadcasting system.

This meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport, which was referred by the Dáil to the committee on 22 November with an instruction to report back to the Dáil no later than 6 December. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, to speak on the Supplementary Estimate. I also welcome the officials from the Department to the meeting and thank them for the briefing material, which has been circulated. As for the format of today's meeting, the Minister will make a brief address, after which members who wish to speak may indicate and may then contribute. Then we can consider the Supplementary Estimate in more detail. Is that agreed? Agreed. I remind members that in accordance with Standing Orders, discussion should be confined to the items constituting the Supplementary Estimate. I now invite the Minister to make his address.

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Shane Ross)

I thank the members for coming to consider this technical Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. The entirety of this Supplementary Estimate is taken up with one project, namely Luas cross-city. Luas cross-city will shortly begin operations and will provide a real benefit to our transport infrastructure. The Luas network has been a huge success story for Dublin's public transport system and there have already been a number of improvements to the network since the green and red lines began operations in 2004 - for example, the extensions to Cherrywood and the Docklands. Luas cross-city has been a priority project for the Government and has been delivered on target and within budget. With testing and training of drivers coming to a conclusion, Luas cross-city will commence passenger services on 9 December. The project will be a hugely beneficial addition to the public transport network in Dublin, enhancing the overall capacity available. This will encourage more people to use public transport, which will assist in alleviating congestion in the city. Alleviating congestion is particularly important at present as the level of economic activity is, thankfully, continuing to grow. I know that the past few years have been challenging for the city and for businesses, and we all look forward to the works drawing to a close and the start of operations next month. I take this opportunity to thank the people, particularly the business people, of Dublin for their patience. I feel they are about to be rewarded.

Passenger numbers on the Luas network exceeded 34 million in 2016. Luas cross-city is forecast to provide for up to 10 million additional passenger journeys per annum. Under the agreed budgetary profile for the funding of the Luas cross-city project, an element of the costs arising in 2017 will be borne through the release of section 49 levies held in reserve by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII. These levies in the amount of €12.5 million were collected by TII under section 49 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. The levies were collected in respect of the Luas extensions to Cherrywood and the Docklands. These levies can now be surrendered by TII to my Department for reallocation to the National Transport Authority, NTA, for costs relating to Luas cross-city. The Supplementary Estimate will facilitate arrangements to reallocate the funds in question to fund Luas cross-city project expenditure which was incurred during 2017.

Luas cross-city completes the missing link in the Luas network. It will help to create an integrated public transport system in Dublin by extending the existing green line at St. Stephen's Green to Broombridge and providing an interchange between the existing red and green lines in the city centre. It will also serve the new Dublin Institute of Technology campus at Grangegorman. Luas cross-city will also enhance the image of Dublin as a shopping, tourist and business destination. This in turn will lead to increases in investment and economic activity. I have no doubt that Luas cross-city will bring huge benefits to the city, including to the businesses in the city centre and along its route. I very much look forward to seeing it up and running. I am happy to address any questions members of the committee may have on this technical Supplementary Estimate to help fund Luas cross-city.

Deputy Robert Troy

I welcome the Minister and his officials. As he said, this is only a technical Supplementary Estimate, but why is this additional money required? The briefing documentation indicates that the project was coming in on time and on budget, so why then is there a need for a Supplementary Estimate? Would this not have been envisaged at the beginning of the year and included in the original Estimates? I know we are only putting in €1,000 and the money is coming from TII, so the arrangements are technical in nature, but why is the additional €12.5 million now needed?

With the Chairman's forbearance, regarding the fact that this is a Supplementary Estimate, I wish to use the opportunity to ask the Minister why the head of network operations for TII this week wrote to all the chief executives of all the city and county councils and advised:

At this point, it is envisaged that the 2018 ordinary maintenance allocations to local authorities will be reduced by approx 30% from 2017 levels. This reduction, however, will be mitigated somewhat by the availability of additional funds which can be drawn down by the geo app but will nonetheless be significant at approximately 17% overall.

In the context of the Supplementary Estimates, why is TII sending out such a letter?

It begins the letter by saying it has recently been notified by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport that the overall national road expenditure budget for 2018 will be reduced by approximately 15% compared with 2017 levels. I am conscious it is not overly related to the matters under discussion today but it is relevant in the context of Estimates for the Department and I ask the Minister to address it today.

Chairman

Does Deputy O'Keeffe wish to ask a further question? The Minister can answer both his question and that of Deputy Troy together.

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

I welcome that the budget is more or less on target and projects are on schedule. There is good news for those living in Dublin but not for those who have to travel on the M8 or the M7. Since I began commuting to Dublin, I have looked forward to being able to avail of the Luas to get from Clondalkin to St. Stephen's Green. However, the nightmare of congestion on the M7 at Naas and Newbridge will have to be resolved in order for the Luas to be of benefit. That obstacle must be overcome in order to attract more travellers to Dublin. The development project in that regard should be fast tracked. Only if that congestion is alleviated will the Luas cross-city be of benefit to those travelling to Dublin via the M8 or M7.

Has the issue of training for Luas drivers been resolved? Is the Minister sure it will be possible to operate the cross-city line in view of health and safety requirements and drivers seeking more training?

Deputy Shane Ross

I will address Deputy Troy's question first. Extra money is not being sought but, rather, there is a transfer of €12.5 million. Under the provisions of the Act, I have to give a ministerial direction for money to be taken from the TII pot, which then comes in to the Department. The money goes on a quite circuitous route. It is collected from developers and goes to local authorities, then into the TII pot and then into the reserves of the Department. It then goes to the National Transport Authority, NTA, which allocates it to Luas cross-city. That has to be done under the Act. It is not a Supplementary Estimate-------

Deputy Robert Troy

The Minister allocates the levies that have been collected from development along the Cherrywood line.

Deputy Shane Ross

That is correct.

Deputy Robert Troy

And it comes through the Department to be spent on the Luas.

Deputy Shane Ross

The levies are imposed along the Cherrywood and docklands lines.

Deputy Robert Troy

The levies from the new cross-city line will only start to be collected now that the line is up and running. Anyone applying for planning along the new line will be charged a levy------

Deputy Shane Ross

That is correct.

Deputy Robert Troy

-----because they will have the benefit of the line and that will eventually help fund------

Deputy Shane Ross

Something else.

Deputy Robert Troy

------extensions and improvements in the future.

Deputy Shane Ross

The Deputy is correct. There is a mismatch in terms of years. The process allocates funds collected in respect of past construction to another area. The funds go into the TII pot and are then allocated out. That is why it ended up funding the Luas cross-city. A huge amount of extra money is involved but it is not a Supplementary Estimate.

I do not have any details in regard to the Department writing a letter regarding ordinary maintenance. I will get an answer on that issue for the Deputy. That is the 30% reduction in the-----

Deputy Robert Troy

I will give the letter to the Minister and I would appreciate if he would examine it and come back to me.

Deputy Shane Ross

I will find out the relevant information for the Deputy.

I am sorry about the difficulties experienced by Deputy O'Keeffe and that Luas cross-city does not currently address those concerns. We are addressing many issues of that sort. There is an issue outside the Dublin area which we are addressing that I suspect I should not discuss now because it does not regard the Luas cross-city but I will do so to try to be helpful to the Deputy. Construction has started on the first of the major upgrade schemes, that being the widening of the M7 Naas bypass and an upgrade to the Sallins bypass and Osberstown interchange projects. Those are being implemented as one project.

Additional funding is being provided as part of the capital plan review which will allow for significant enhancements to the programme. The funding has facilitated a range of national roads initiatives, including M50 safety enhancement works, measures to reduce energy usage for traffic route lighting, the inclusion of some additional major and minor road upgrade schemes in TII's construction programme and the appraisal of a range of projects with a view to developing a pipeline of future projects. Financial provision is also being made to meet the Government's commitment to contribute to the A5 upgrade.

Quite a lot of money will be spent under the new capital plan in addressing the issue of park-and-ride facilities. I hope that will help to address issues on the outskirts of Dublin such as that referenced by Deputy O'Keeffe regarding his getting to that point and difficulties beginning at the Red Cow interchange. That is an issue for many people travelling to Dublin. That will be addressed and commitment to so doing has been made in the new capital plan.

In addition, the internal workings of Dublin transport will be revolutionised in many ways, such as through the Bus Connects initiative, on which approximately €770 million will be spent in the coming years, beginning in 2019. Issues other than the Luas are being addressed at great expense. The overall consideration is not solely in respect of Dublin and Broombridge to Sandyford, as other problems are also being considered. It is hoped that the Bus Connects initiative will also be introduced in Cork, which might interest Deputy O'Keeffe.

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

The Minister has not addressed the issue of training for Luas drivers.

Deputy Shane Ross

I apologise. I have a note on the issue which might have been circulated to the Deputy that I will read out because we anticipate the issue will be addressed.

As Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, I have responsibility for policy and the funding of public transport. I am not involved in the issue the Deputy addressed, which is the day-to-day operations of public transport, but I will try to reassure him in that regard. Both the NTA and TII have statutory responsibility for the provision and oversight of Luas services, while the actual services are operated by a private company, Transdev, with which the Deputy is familiar.

The issue of driver training for services on the new cross-city line is a matter for Transdev. The Commission for Railway Regulation, CRR, is the independent regulatory agency charged with oversight of the safety of all railway activities in the State. The regulatory process operates independently of the Minister and the Department. The CRR as safety regulator ensures that a safety management system is in place for the operation of Luas cross-city. The role of the CRR is to assess safety management systems to ensure they conform to all requirements prior to awarding safety authorisation or safety certificates and the assessment of new or significantly altered railway infrastructure and rolling stock to ensure safety compliance prior to placing in service. It has the necessary powers to deal with any risk to safety that may arise.

I made inquiries on the issue this morning because it was anticipated that a Deputy would raise it. The Department is utterly confident that there are no safety issues that will in any way delay the launch of Luas cross-city on 9 December.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a short question which the Minister may have already answered. As regards the €12.5 million in appropriations in aid receipts, is that money going from the TII to the NTA via the Department for the Luas? From where is it accumulated? The Minister earlier referenced levies from the docklands and so on. Is that from where it comes?

Deputy Shane Ross

It comes from developers. As the Deputy knows, there is a levy on developments along Luas lines. As I outlined in response to Deputy Troy, the money from the levies is collected by the relevant local authority. The route it takes is somewhat circuitous, the reason for which I do not know but which is required under the Act. It goes from the local authority to TII, then to the Department, which gives it to the NTA. The NTA, as the sanctioning body, sanctions the money and sends it to fund works on the Luas cross-city.

It has to be done because of the mismatch between the levies collected one year from a developer and the money being paid out somewhere else. It is a question of need under the Act.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That was all I wanted to know.

Chairman

Does Deputy Robert Troy wish to come back in?

Deputy Robert Troy

Yes. It was remiss of me at the outset not to compliment the work that has been done to bring the project on. It is hugely important infrastructure that will help in bringing about a more integrated public transport network in the capital city. It is a good start and while we have a long way to go, we must acknowledge the work that has been done. As the Minister said, a lot of people have been inconvenienced by the construction work in the past few years, but I hope they will reap many benefits and rewards when the service is up and running. Does the Minister know how much of the money raised by way of the development levies went towards meeting the overall cost of the line?

My next question may be a little unfair because the Minister cannot predict how much development will take place along the new line. However, the Department is aware of how much land has been zoned for development. On that basis, can the Minister give us a figure for the potential development levies that could be recouped in the next five to ten years by Dublin City Council?

I note that €150 million of the cost of the Luas cross-city project was met through European funding, which is welcome. I have said to the Minister on previous occasions that I do not think the Government is availing enough of the funding available to us to invest in infrastructural improvements. Now that we see the benefits of such investment in this project, will the Minister commit to considering using the Juncker fund to accelerate other projects in the future?

Deputy Shane Ross

I am happy to take that question. The Deputy is right that €150 million came from the European Investment Bank. The funds for the scheme have come from the European Investment Bank by way of a loan of €150 million, the Exchequer and TII reserves, mainly made up of development levies.

On the amount of land zoned, it would be speculative to say how much has been zoned and how much could be raised. I do not think I could do that. However, I could ask TII to give us some estimate, but I imagine it is considered to be a steady, ongoing source of revenue. I doubt that it could be specific, but it might have some projections.

Deputy Robert Troy

Based on the amount of land zoned, it should have projections.

Deputy Shane Ross

My officials do not have estimates, but we will follow up with a note, about which we will have to ask TII.

Chairman

We should invite representatives of TII to a meeting shortly.

Deputy Shane Ross

On EU funds, I think we have had that discussion before. We are committed to using the funds as far as we possibly can. There are some restrictions, but we are committed to applying provided that the rates and conditions are right.

Deputy Robert Troy

The Government has not been applying. There has been no application to the new Juncker fund from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, which is disappointing. The Italians, for example, availed of €600 million from the fund for the provision of a railway line. The Poles also availed of the fund and used the moneys to improve existing infrastructure and rolling stock. There is an opportunity to use the fund and, as captain of the ship in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Minister should be pushing this agenda to avail of funding to accelerate investment in public transport.

Deputy Shane Ross

I am advised that we are using as much as we can under current fiscal rules. We are very close to the ceiling, but when it changes, we will use the Juncker fund as a possible source of funding in the future if the rates are right.