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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Apr 2018

Vol. 967 No. 4

Leaders' Questions

I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that there is real and deep concern about the alleged data breach at Independent News & Media, INM, which has been well reported in recent weeks. We agree that having an independent and free media is essential to the operation of a parliamentary democracy. We should all hold dear the protection of journalistic sources, editorial independence, the independence of journalists and their freedom from undue interference. Recent events serve as a wake-up call for the Oireachtas to consider legislation to deal with these issues on several fronts. Much work has been done in that regard by interested parties, not least the former Chief Justice, Mr. John Murray, whose very comprehensive report on the protection by the State of journalistic sources was published last year but has not been acted on. He says this protection should apply generally because it is essential to democracy. The United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organization, UNESCO, also produced a comprehensive report two years ago on the desirability of, and necessity for, a national law to be established to deal with these issues.

It was very much on the button in terms of what has transpired over the past two weeks. It states we should have specific national legislation for source protection, with its legal foundation being the right to freedom of expression, including press freedom and privacy. It states such legislation should recognise that source protection should extend to all acts of journalism and across all platforms, services and media, including digital data and metadata. It affirms that state and corporate actors, including third-party intermediaries who capture journalistic data, must treat those data confidentially, and that the law should shield acts of journalism from targeted surveillance, data retention and the hand-over of material connected to confidential sources. It recommends that arbitrary, unauthorised and wilful violations of confidentiality of sources by third-party actors should be criminalised. In addition, we have the media plurality monitor in league with the European Commission and others. It identifies very high risks in terms of ownership, transparency of ownership, and editorial autonomy.

Will the Government consider legislation across the three strands I have identified? Will the Taoiseach reaffirm his position to the House? Yesterday an actor of the State, the Director of Corporate Enforcement, essentially received correspondence stating he may be personally held liable in respect of certain things done in the line of his duty. It is very important that the message go out from the Oireachtas and Government that any actor of the State is indemnified and will not lose out in any way for conducting his or her duty on behalf of the taxpayer and the State. It is very important that this affirmation be given in respect of the director of the ODCE today.

I thank the Deputy for raising this important question. To answer it, given recent revelations we will have to consider legislation in this area to protect sources. I am not aware of any legislation being drafted currently by the Government and I have not seen any by the Opposition in the form of Private Members' Bills in the past two years, but perhaps the time has come for the Government to dust down the reports and give consideration to legislation in this area.

Having independent news and media is a cornerstone of our democracy. It is, after all, the Fourth Estate. Journalists must be free to pursue stories that they want to pursue. Their sources should be protected and free from any unjust interference, external or internal. We need a plurality of voices in the media. We need to ensure these voices are not drowned out or silenced. We also need diversity in ownership.

I commend journalists who have worked to report on this story, including journalists in Independent News & Media, who have not allowed their independence to be compromised. The reported data breaches represent a very significant threat to the freedom of our press but the way in which the media have responded to this threat to date should reassure us that our press will not be silenced.

Obviously, any alleged breach affecting personal data is a matter of concern, whether it relates to journalists or public citizens. It is important to say that although this is now a matter before the courts, we need to respect that and bear it in mind in our contributions. The Deputy has done so.

The ODCE, a Government office at the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, has now made an application to the High Court under section 748 of the Companies Act 2014 to appoint inspectors to investigate the affairs of Independent News & Media. This is now an enforcement matter for the ODCE. Section 949(3) of the Companies Act provides that the Director of Corporate Enforcement shall be independent in the performance of his statutory functions. The case commenced yesterday.

In terms of indemnity, it is absolutely the case that any public servant who acts properly and in accordance with his mandate and does not breach any laws or ethical principles is indemnified by the State.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Former Chief Justice Murray published a comprehensive report about a year ago. I am not aware that any action has been taken by the line Minister on foot of that report, which deals with the issue of protecting journalistic sources.

Second, according to some criteria, the media freedom monitor of the Centre for Media Pluralism and Media Freedom identifies Ireland as very high risk in terms of editorial autonomy, ownership and transparency around ownership, mainly due to the lack of any upward threshold in terms of ownership.

That requires review and consideration by the Oireachtas in general. Legislation relating to the protection of journalistic sources is imminent. Given what has happened, we cannot hang around too long in that regard because this is fundamental to our democracy. I welcome the Taoiseach's comments on the director of the ODCE.

The Deputy's time is up.

There has been no transparent evidence at all to date that the office leaked anything. No agent of the State should have to work under that intimidatory cloud hanging over him or her in the conduct-----

I am sorry, but the Deputy's time is up.

Apologies. I was only a few seconds over.

It was 30 seconds.

I can give a commitment to the Deputy that I will speak to the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment with a view to giving consideration to legislation in this area. It might be something the Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment could consider.

The news of the data breach at INM is deeply alarming. Hundreds of thousands of emails may have been compromised. Nineteen individuals were singled out for data interrogation in October 2014 and, allegedly, it involved a hired firm conducting a trawl of electronic records of journalists and others at the company. They included investigative journalists and lawyers who had worked on the Moriarty tribunal. This data interrogation represents an attack on the privacy and safety of journalists and their sources. It undermines fundamentals of how members of the press go about their work in the public interest. We know also that a former chairperson of INM ordered the data interrogation, but we do not know his reasons for so doing. We do not know why the 19 individuals I cited were specifically targeted and certainly do not know why the bill for the data interrogation was paid by Blaydon Limited, a company based on the Isle of Man.

The ODCE, as the Taoiseach said, wants the courts to appoint inspectors to go into INM to conduct a full and proper investigation, which is correct and understandable. However, yesterday it emerged that Mr. Denis O'Brien was seeking a judicial review of the ODCE's request to appoint such inspectors by accusing it of leaking information on the data breach. The ODCE has been investigating the story for a whole year without any leak, but as soon as the affidavit arrived at INM premises there were numerous leaks. INM even reported on details of the affidavit. It appears that an attempt is being made to silence the ODCE.

There is no doubt that the office is up against it because of a lack of resources and support on the Taoiseach's watch and that of previous Governments. Currently, 35 staff and seven gardaí are assigned to the office. That gives a clear insight into the State's attitude to white collar crime and corporate enforcement. Companies should fear the ODCE and the consequences of data breaches or any other unethical action. The office should be properly resourced and empowered to ensure white-collar crime is not only prosecuted but deterred. This jurisdiction has gained a reputation as being the Wild West when it comes to tax avoidance and the prevalence of white collar crime. If we are to shake this reputation, we need to take a stand here and now. The Taoiseach cannot stand by and allow the ODCE to be disrupted or silenced. He has a responsibility to support its work. Does the office have his full support? How does he plan to demonstrate that support in terms of the provision of adequate resources and staffing?

I thank the Deputy. I do not know the answers to the questions she raises either, which is why it is important that we allow the director and the ODCE to do their work. The matter is before the courts.

Anyone has the right to challenge a decision in the courts if that person has a locus standi.

With regard to resources, 36 staff are in place in the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, and seven gardaí are also assigned. Reforms have taken place since 2012, which have included the recruitment of additional staff, particularly those with specific skills and expertise. This means the ODCE is well resourced to tackle the increasingly complex breaches of company law. Over recent years, nine professional staff have been recruited to the office to enhance its capability. These include a digital forensic specialist, two enforcement portfolio managers and six forensic accountants. Furthermore, the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation is engaging with the Public Appointments Service, PAS, to fill through open competition two more positions for forensic accountants and two more for enforcement lawyers. While recruitment is ongoing, the ODCE, in common with many other State agencies, faces difficulty with recruiting high-quality professional staff. I am advised that, at present, the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation has no requests for additional staff other than those I have mentioned.

The director has the full support of the Government. As part of our white-collar crime package, which I published with the former Tánaiste, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, a few months ago, it is our policy to develop the ODCE, take it out of its current role as an office within a Department, make it a stand-alone statutory body in its own right and make it a national corporate enforcement bureau. That is a policy published by the Government last October or November. Legislation to do that is being developed.

The view of many people is that powerful politicians in and out of government in the State have stood off and even courted very powerful interests within the media. I think the Taoiseach will agree with me that that is a very dangerous perception, never mind the reality of it. I agree with him that the ODCE needs to be assisted in doing its work and I challenge the Taoiseach to put his money where his mouth is. I will grant that he did better than Deputy Micheál Martin when, in 2005, 2006 and 2007, as the line Minister, he, in a studious way, ignored the calls for an increase in the number of staff for the office. The Taoiseach now tells us that there are 36 staff and the Garda complement. Contrast that with 350 welfare inspectors. Of course, we need welfare inspectors. When one looks at those figures, it tells a tale of where the balance of consideration is. In 2018, the Taoiseach allocated a budget of €5 million to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. He also allocated €5 million to his unit for spin.

The Deputy's time is up.

That, too, tells where the Taoiseach's balance of consideration and emphasis lies. I will put the question to the Taoiseach again. There is a request for four additional staff places. He has indicated difficulties in recruitment.

The Deputy is over time.

I want to hear solidly from the Taoiseach his concrete proposals to beef up the resourcing and staff complement of that office.

I thought I had covered that in my answer but I am happy to reply again. The ODCE has a staff complement of 36 and, in addition to that, there are seven gardaí. Four positions are being recruited for. There is no request for further staff in addition to those four who are being recruited. As part of the white-collar crime package, which the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, and I published alongside the Minister, Deputy Ross, and others in October, we set out clearly how we intend to strengthen the role of this office, turn it into a stand-alone agency, make it separate from a Department, which would be most appropriate, and develop it into a bureau of investigation for white-collar crime. In that package is legislation we put forward relating to corruption. We have a good package in place to tackle white-collar crime and we intend to see it through.

I am sorry to trouble the Taoiseach with mundane and practical matters but some city representatives and those from urban centres would not recognise or realise the huge problem we have with rural and county roads. An elected representative living in rural Ireland meets people every other day describing the shocking, appalling and atrocious conditions of these roads. People living on these roads at present are frustrated, angry and resentful because their local road network is in tatters.

This is a massive political issue. The Government does not need research, surveys or focus groups to establish the extent of the problem but, rather, should just ask county councillors in Tipperary and elsewhere who are currently embarrassed and ashamed to meet people living on such roads. People using such roads in north, mid, south and west Tipperary are incensed and furious at the neglect and abandonment of some rural roads. Council engineers and elected representatives feel helpless and hopeless because of the lack of adequate funding.

There have been several weather events such as Storms Ophelia, Eleanor and Brian and unprecedented levels of rainfall, snow and frost. The Government did an excellent job in briefing the public on such events and the message it conveyed was competent and capable in terms of getting precautionary measures across to the public. However, the follow up has been less than impressive. It was inevitable that such weather events would make an impact and have consequences such as the alarming deterioration of our roads. The more that deterioration is ignored, the worse it gets.

The CEO and executive of Tipperary County Council last week met with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, and informed him that, having conducted an evaluation and assessment, they require an additional €197 million to resolve the problems of 3,000 km of rural roads. If one looks at the allocations, the national allocation for 2008, ten years ago, was €608 million. The allocation for this year, 2018, is €417 million, a drop of €200 million. Seven years ago, Tipperary was allocated €45 million for its roads. This year, it will receive €23.3 million, less than half that amount.

An urgent, coherent and orchestrated response by the Government is needed. It is not sufficient to say there has been an increase in allocation. It is abundantly clear that the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport will not be able to provide the necessary funds. An extraordinary response is required and that must be funded.

I had the opportunity over the Easter recess to get around the country a little bit. I was in Limerick, Galway, Deputy Lowry's own county of Tipperary, Laois, Meath, Kildare and north County Dublin. The Deputy is correct that the issue of the condition of local and regional roads has been raised with me by citizens everywhere I go and that many such roads are in very bad condition: there are many potholes and ruts and many vehicles are being damaged. That is due to a combination of underinvestment in our roads during the dark years of the recession - the lost decade during which we did not have the money to invest in our public infrastructure - and also the very bad weather that we have experienced in recent times.

The total regional and local road budget for this year is €417 million, a very considerable increase of €90 million on last year. I did some metaphorical digging in the past day or two------

That does not answer the question. We know about that allocation.

------and discovered that only a small fraction of that €417 million has been spent by the local authorities. The reason I have been given for it not being spent is that local authorities have not been able to get out on the roads to repair them because of the bad weather. Now that the weather is getting warmer and the sun is starting to come out, I expect local authorities to begin work immediately on repairing our local and regional roads and to spend the €417 million that has been allocated to them this year for that purpose.

The Government is considering an additional allocation on foot of the storm events and we have asked each local authority to come forward with a costing in that regard. Some have done so and others have not but before we make that additional allocation I would like local authorities to spend the €417 million - €90 million more than last year - that they have been allocated. I understand the weather has been bad and they have not been able to get crews out but the weather is now improving, long evenings are coming and I expect local authorities to get out there, do that work and spend that money.

With respect, the problem is they do not have the resources to do the work. Our roads have become virtually undriveable. They are not fit for purpose. They are hazardous. They are dangerous. In fact, they are obstacle courses. The situation is impacting on school buses, dairy collection services, An Post deliveries, bin collection and ambulance services. I am aware of a case last week where a sick elderly person had to be brought out by tractor through a lane to meet the ambulance at the top of the road. That is how bad our roads are.

All elected representatives are getting savaged at meetings in rural areas. We have to turn up and explain the unexplainable. It is just impossible. We have a general election on the horizon and this issue must be addressed. If Fine Gael and the Government are serious about re-election they must address the lack of funding for rural roads because after the first week of the campaign half of the canvassers will be in bed because they will not want to face the hostility of the people living down rural roads and lanes.

Figures were supplied to me on funding for local roads in Tipperary. There is an increase this year to €21 million for regional and local roads, which is up from €18.4 million last year.

That would not patch them.

For national roads there has been an increase from €2 million last year to €13 million this year. The Deputy will be aware the local improvement scheme for laneways was reintroduced last year and the allocation for Tipperary is €625,000. That is up from €237,000 for last year. There are increases under all of those headings for Tipperary. It is also important to bear in mind that central government grants are not supposed to cover the full cost of roads. Local authorities are supposed to supplement that funding with their own resources from commercial rates and the local property tax.

They do not have any resources.

Order, please.

I ask Deputy Lowry and everyone else in their interactions with council officials to ask them how much of the resources have been deployed so far this year. As I said, €417 million is available for local and regional roads this year and I understand only a fraction of that has been spent. I understand why that is, namely, because of the bad weather, but we want local authorities to get out there now in the good weather and with the longer evenings to spend the €417 million improving and restoring our regional and local roads. In the meantime the Government will work on additional funding following the storms.

I have two media questions for the Taoiseach. I listened here to the sweet words that were blown up to our friends in the Press Gallery about the importance of the media and how it is central to our democracy. We heard a lot of that in recent weeks. I agree with the Taoiseach.

It is interesting today to note that we have the head of global policy in Facebook coming before an Oireachtas committee to answer questions about Cambridge Analytica and the effect of some of the new media companies on the democratic system. I think Facebook is more of a publisher than a platform. The evidence of that in this country is that Facebook and Google are taking in more than €300 million in advertising revenue that previously went, by and large, to Irish media companies. It is the same with Netflix. Figures out today show that its revenue is growing by 20% a year. Spotify's revenue is growing by 30% per year. Sky is taking €500 million in profit out of the country and Irish media are on their knees.

I looked to find what the Taoiseach has said and done about the situation. The first thing he did was to get rid of the digital Minister from his Department. I looked at the Facebook page of the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Breen. I learnt a lot about County Clare, a county I love, but I learnt next to nothing about what he had to say in the past year about the digital issues of our time.

I sought to find out what the Taoiseach had to say when he went to see Facebook. He was in the beautiful roof garden in the Facebook headquarters in Menlo Park. The Taoiseach said his main purpose was to assure Facebook that the pro-business, pro-enterprise, pro-trade policies that have been pursued in the past would continue to be followed into the future. He could not have been clearer that we would be pro-business. There was not a word about good regulation and high standards, and there has not been a word from the Taoiseach about his thoughts on the matter since we heard about Cambridge Analytica. That is important, given the importance of those companies to us. They are important to my city. Thousands of jobs are involved. We have to get them and we will hold onto them when we have high standards. The world is seeking to invest in places that are not just pro-business, pro-trade and "whatever we can do for you", but have ethics, values and standards.

My first question to the Taoiseach is what questions I should put on his behalf to the head of global policy at Facebook with regard to Cambridge Analytica. Is there anything the Taoiseach wants to say to the company following what we have discovered in the past two to three weeks?

My second question is how the Taoiseach is going to fund Irish media if all the money is going to Facebook, Google, Sky and others.

I asked the Taoiseach this question a few weeks ago in the context of promised legislation, but he had no answer to it. He just said there was a Bill coming. The Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, came into the Dáil on the last sitting day before the Easter recess and made a speech in which he effectively said that the Government was doing nothing in funding Irish media. The Government will not take on board the recommendations of the Oireachtas committee which set out how we could raise a pot of between €60 million and €70 million per year that would go to Irish television, radio, music, content creators, film and drama producers.

My third question is: what does the Government intend to do? All of the pious talk about the need for legislation to protect sources is fine, but, first and foremost, we need to make sure the companies survive. How is the Government going to fund Irish media if it is not going to accept the Oireachtas committee's recommendations in that regard?

The Deputy will get front page headlines tomorrow.

Sometimes when I hear the Deputy preaching from his perch on the edge of the Chamber, I almost forget-----

-----the fact that he was not just elected to the Dáil in 2016. He was, of course, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources for four and a half years. He had responsibility for this area for four and a half years when he served in office with Fianna Fáil during that disastrous Government which led the country to bankruptcy, never mind individual enterprises. Rather than concentrating on what the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Breen, and I say or do not say, perhaps he might account for his own lack of action during the four and a half years during which he held that office.

I will happily account for my time in office if the Taoiseach answers my questions.

I am not in a position to advise the Deputy on what questions he should ask Facebook. He is intelligent enough to develop his own questions. In terms of legislation and regulations, he should be aware that the Government is bringing through legislation on data protection. The GDPR legislation is far reaching and deals very much with privacy and data protection issues. It is real action by the Government and real legislation of the kind that was not brought forward when the Deputy held office for four and a half years.

On funding media organisations, as the Deputy knows, there is some State funding for media organisations through television licence fee income which, in the main, goes to RTÉ and also to the broadcasting fund. Beyond that, media organisations are private businesses, independent of the Government, and funded by their customers. If Facebook, Google, newspapers or radio stations make money, it is because they are providing content or doing things their customers want.

Deputy Eamon Ryan has one minute.

The Taoiseach still has a minute and a half of his time left; perhaps he might use it to say something more on the issue.

The Taoiseach said what he had to say.

He said nothing.

I am proud of my time in government. I am proud that I travelled all over the world to get some of those businesses to come to this country. I am proud that I stood as a Minister against the Department of Justice and Equality that wanted to do all sorts of things with regard to data retention. We had an ethical principle and a vision of where the digital revolution was going, but it is deeply despairing that in the past seven years, for which Fine Gael is accountable, it seems to have disappeared out the door. It is because we need these digital industries, which I support because we need the digital revolution to do a whole load of things, that I want high standards.

The Taoiseach did not answer my second question. He spoke about private businesses and their rights, but RTÉ is not a private company; it is a public company. With all other radio stations, it needs support. We need to increase the broadcasting fund, extend it to the print media and allow people to bid for that funding. The Taoiseach has failed to answer the question on so many occasions. His Government is going to do nothing as Irish media wilt on the vine and all of the business goes to international multimedia companies. That is an insult to the media in this country and a threat to our democracy. The Government needs to fund media if we are to have a proper institution to protect our democracy.

The Deputy's time is up.

Will the Taoiseach answer the second question, rather than cast aspersions back? What will he do to increase funding for Irish media, as recommended by the Oireachtas committee?

I am not really sure what the Deputy is asking, but I note that he used the term "cast aspersions back". Obviously, in his mind it is okay to cast aspersions, but it is totally indefensible or unacceptable for me to dare to respond or cast them back. That is the double standards one so often gets from the Green Party. It does not just disagree with you; it is also better than you. That is fundamental to its attitude to others and politics.

Will the Taoiseach answer the question?

Bring Deputy Enda Kenny back.

The report of the Oireachtas committee is under consideration, but the Deputy must bear in mind that taxpayers' money is the peoples' money. The report recommends a different way to collect the television licence fee which would require people who do not have a television to pay a television licence fee. We must bear in mind that when we talk about public funding, we are talking about taxpayers' money. We have to consider whether people want to spend more money in funding media organisations or whether they would prefer the money to be spent on other things like education, health care or disability services.

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