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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 2 Feb 2012

Chapter 21: Fingerprint Systems

Mr. Martin Callinan (Commissioner, An Garda Síochána) called and examined.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery to turn off their mobile phones, as they interfere with the sound quality of the transmission of the meeting. I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions under Standing Order 158 that the committee should refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Martin Callinan, Commissioner of An Garda Síochána, and ask him to introduce his officials. I apologise for the delay. We had to deal with some other matters. Mr. Callinan is newly appointed and I wish him well in his role.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman. I am joined by Ms Noirín O'Sullivan, deputy commissioner, who is in charge of operations, Mr. Nacie Rice, deputy commissioner, who is in charge of strategic management, Ms Sinéad McSweeney, director of communications, Mr. Eamonn Murray, chief superintendent who is in charge of the telecoms section. We are also joined by officials from the Department of Justice and Equality.

I ask them to introduce themselves

Mr. Martin Callinan

Mr. Michael Culhane is the executive director of ICT finance and our accountant.

Mr. Fergus O’Callaghan

I work for the Garda division in the Department of Justice and Equality.

Mr. Neville Kenny

I am from the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service.

Mr. David Denny

I am a principal officer in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the 2010 annual report and appropriation accounts, Vote 20: Garda Síochána, Chapter 21 fingerprint systems.

Mr. John Buckley

I thank the Chairman. The Appropriation Account of An Garda Síochána recorded a net expenditure of €1.4 billion in 2010. The account received a clear audit report for that year. The bulk of the Vote expenditure went towards meeting payroll costs of €1 billion, including €78 million on overtime. Pension payments to retired members of the force in 2010 came to €289 million.

My annual report contains a chapter on the development of a new automated fingerprint identification system for use by the Garda Síochána and the immigration authorities. As it would be used for both functions, the project was jointly funded by the Department and by the Garda authorities. It was project managed by the Garda. The project involved the replacement of an existing fingerprint identification system that was becoming obsolete and the development of a system that was compatible with other Garda IT systems and allowed for the exchange of data with external agencies such as Interpol and the PSNI.

Normally, sizable projects of this nature should be the subject of a business case. The business case for the fingerprint project was finalised as part of a post-hoc peer review exercise, which was completed more than a year after the procurement process had begun. However, the peer review process was satisfied that the business case and system selection was sound.

Briefly, the outturn of the project was that while an overall budget was not established at the outset, the final project cost which covered some additional components not originally specified was just over €23 million. That was the direct cost of the project. It was completed in October 2009, which was 18 months later than planned. From a quality perspective, the system was delivered to specification and has been deployed within the asylum, immigration and policing regimes. From the viewpoint of functionality and effectiveness, An Garda Síochána has reported that it has almost doubled the success rate for fingerprint matches since the introduction of the new system.

However, the report notes that some issues remain around the commissioning and use of the system and these have prevented the full benefits from being realised at this point. Two thirds of all fingerprints captured during June 2011 were taken using the new automated system and within this, the proportion of prints taken for the purposes of criminal investigations was just over half. This is partly explained by the fact that the new system has not been installed in all locations. However, in addition to this, fingerprints are being taken using the traditional wet-ink system at locations where the new equipment is available.

In addition, industrial action at the offices of the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin and Cork has prevented the system from being used as intended in the registration process for non-EEA nationals. Some of the functions built into the system, including mobile fingerprinting, cannot be deployed until enabling legislation is enacted. Overall, while the project was developed in a structured way and a considerable asset has been created, the challenge is to ensure it is now fully deployed in police and immigration work so that its full value can be exploited.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it in my capacity as Accounting Officer for the Garda Vote. I look forward to discussing any aspect of the Vote which the committee may wish to discuss with me.

The structure of An Garda Síochána comprises a central headquarters, national support units and geographical operational units organised into six regions, 25 divisions, 109 districts and 703 sub-districts. Following the comprehensive review of expenditure undertaken in 2011, a total of 39 Garda stations will be closed in 2012. The strength of the Garda service on 31 December 2011 was 13,894 sworn members, inclusive of all ranks. The strength of the force on 31 December 2010 was 14,377 - all ranks - a reduction of 483 members. It is currently projected that a further 293 sworn members will retire in the first two months of this year. In the 14 months from January 2011 to February 2012, 776 sworn members will have retired.

Pursuant to section 19(4) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the Garda Commissioner became the appropriate authority for civilian staff of An Garda Síochána in October 2006. A dedicated civilian HR directorate was simultaneously established to support the Garda Commissioner in discharging this new statutory responsibility and to drive forward the implementation of the civilianisation programme. The number of full-time equivalent civilian staff employed in An Garda Síochána was 2,074 on 31 December 2011 and the ratio of civilian to sworn members was 1:7. An Garda Síochána remains committed to attaining a lower ratio but this is influenced by the current public sector recruitment moratorium.

The 2012 budget for the Garda Vote amounts to €1.325 billion, which is 8% less than the 2011 budget of €1.439 billion. To ensure the maximum amount of resources are allocated to front-line policing, I have initiated a number of action plans to address this issue. My general budgetary strategy is aimed at securing increased efficiencies in the deployment of Garda resources.

As an organisation, we are not immune from the harsh economic realities which are impacting on the community and the public sector. Like everyone else, we must continue to find efficiencies and still provide a professional service. To this end, I have put in place financial controls at all levels within An Garda Síochána, including monthly reporting and profiling of overtime expenditure, with a view to obtaining efficiencies and value for money in the use of overtime. My emphasis continues to be placed on an intelligence led, time limited and focused policing approach.

Our commitment is to maintain operational effectiveness and resilience but to do that work, it must be prioritised and some difficult choices must be made. There is a challenge here for us in managing public expectations and explaining that while a policing service may not always be provided in the same way as it was in the past, it is no less effective and our commitment to the community is not diminished.

Turning to the issue of the automatic fingerprint identification system, as outlined in chapter 21 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the final phase of the AFIS four phase project was accepted by the AFIS project board in October 2009. The project has resulted in significant benefits to An Garda Síochána in the prevention, investigation and detection of criminal activities. This application is now used by other justice agencies, including the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner and the Irish Prison Service in their day-to-day activities.

The original business case estimated a cost of €18 million for the project, excluding any contingency. The actual cost of the system was €23.13 million which included €1.97 million for system enhancements and additional hardware based upon increased and expanded operational requirements which were not envisaged in the original tender. In addition, at the request of the Department of Justice and Equality, €1.33 million was spent on developing an e-visa pilot for implementation in two locations in Nigeria - Lagos and Abuja - to address the issue of visa shopping following the United Kingdom's introduction of biometric visas. Therefore, the effective net project overrun of €1.83 million, which equates to 11% of the tendered price, is within the 10% to 15% contingency normally provided for a project of this scale.

Since the new AFIS system went live, 51% percent of all criminal prints are captured using the new livescan technology. Additionally, due to the increased number of livescans available within An Garda Síochána, the number of prints captured annually has increased from 16,013 in 2008 to 21,129 in 2011, an overall increase of 5,116 equating to a 32% increase.

As part of the increased project functionality and integration of Garda IT systems, prints captured by livescan can be checked in real time to validate the identity of the person and results are provided on the PULSE or Garda national immigration IT systems. The additional hit rate on prints found at crime scenes has increased significantly, by 90% since the first phase of the project went live in 2007. I will answer any questions the Chairman and members may have.

May we publish that statement?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes.

I thank the Garda Commissioner for his opening statement. He is very welcome, as are all of his team. I wish him well in what is a relatively new role for him and wish An Garda Síochána well in meeting the many challenges it faces given the difficult economic situation and the limited resources.

I will start with the fingerprint system and will then ask some more general questions on the Garda Vote. Four issues are identified in chapter 21 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in regard to the utilisation of the fingerprint system. There is no doubt about the success of this system in terms of what the Garda Commissioner referred to as hit rates. The data seem to be pretty conclusive that this has made a real difference in policing and has the potential to make a real difference in regard to immigration registration. What the committee must look at is the utilisation of that system and the return on the investment of what is a large sum of money, €23 million or thereabouts.

Of the four issues in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, three refer to the Garda and the immigration service. One is an issue regarding the enacting of legislation but that is outside the remit of this committee today. The first point which struck me and rather took me aback and for which the Commissioner may be able to provide an update is this issue of the Garda National Immigration Bureau. My understanding is that this new biometric fingerprinting was to be used for non-EEA nationals on entry into the country and that these fingerprints would be included on the registration card. I understand that civilian action at the largest GNIB office at Burgh Quay has resulted in this not being the case and, as a result, registration cards without fingerprints are now being issued to non-EEA nationals. This will come as a great disappointment to the public and also, I am sure, to those involved in the policing of our immigration structures. The Burgh Quay office accounts for 60% of immigrants. Is this industrial action still continuing?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for his very kind remarks regarding my appointment as Commissioner of An Garda Síochána. The Deputy is correct in that there has been a dispute in Burgh Quay involving some of the civilian personnel and this has been going on for quite some time. I made it very clear when I came into office that I wanted this matter resolved as quickly as possible. It was hoped that through negotiations which had been ongoing for a considerable period of time, we could resolve this matter. Unfortunately, this has not come to pass with the result that I have issued a direction to the chief superintendent in charge of that section to write to each of the individual union members who are not engaging with use of the system. The letters stipulate that unless they engage with system by the end of the month, disciplinary action will be taken. I took advice on the matter before doing so because, as the Deputy will appreciate, it is not a position in which I like to find myself but I had no alternative and I ran out of patience, I am afraid, as regards the length of time it was taking to resolve this matter. I am particularly disappointed over the fact that a small number of people did not engage. It is interesting that their other colleagues in other offices are engaging with the process. It is unfortunate that we have had to use that type of executive action. Approximately 35% of applicants on the system are recorded biometrically and it is hoped that a resolution in the coming weeks will allow for the remainder to be included.

I thank the Commissioner for that information. It is astonishing that this has been going on for a period of years. I commend the action he has taken as I appreciate that anyone involved in industrial relations would not take such a decision lightly. The union involved in this dispute is the CPSU. My understanding is that training was provided to these civilian staff, that they undertook the training and they began to operate the system and then withdrew their services from the system. Is this correct?

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is correct. A number of their colleagues in other offices are using the system and it is a cause of great disappointment to me that it has not happened.

I am disappointed, as is anyone who is aware of it. I thank the Commissioner for the update and we hope that his action resolves this issue.

On a matter slightly closer to home, regarding fully sworn members of An Garda Síochána and to which the Comptroller and Auditor General alluded in his introduction, is it the case that this biometric fingerprinting system in place in Garda stations but members of An Garda Síochána are not using the system?

Mr. Martin Callinan

No, that is not the case. Apart from Burgh Quay, all of the other stations are using the system.

The only places in which members of An Garda Síochána are not using the system is where the equipment is not in place.

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is correct. Any line fault will create a problem but in the ordinary course of business, all of the other locations where the live scans are in place - excepting Burgh Quay - are being used by sworn personnel.

That is good news. My final point about the fingerprinting refers to what the Commissioner alluded to in his opening statement, the e-visa pilot which was undertaken on the instructions of the Department of Justice and Equality. My understanding was that this pilot project was due to run for six months commencing in March 2010, that it ran beyond this period and that after this six-month period there was to be a degree of evaluation and then a decision either to roll out the project or discontinue it. Why did it continue on beyond the six months? Has an evaluation been undertaken? Is it planned to roll out the plan in the future?

Mr. Martin Callinan

As the Deputy stated, the need was identified. The committee will doubtless be aware of the significant issue to do with false documentation and people accessing the country illegally. The need was quickly identified and ,especially because of the actions of the United Kingdom, to provide some type of cover for this country. This is the reason for the pilot programme. Unfortunately, this matter has not been progressed any further to date and there is ongoing discussion in an attempt to move it forward, but that is the situation as it stands.

I am somewhat confused and this may not be a question for the Commissioner but rather for the Department. If there was meant to be a six-month period for the pilot programme, why has it been extended?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Perhaps my colleagues in the immigration service might deal with that question.

Mr. Neville Kenny

The initial deployment was for a six-month pilot programme. We then conducted an evaluation of that pilot which concluded that the equipment deployed should remain in place and be moved - migrated - into what we refer to as business as usual. Therefore, the functionality deployed to Africa remains in place and remains in use. To date, almost 8,000 visa applicants from there have been fingerprinted. This has allowed us to deliver on the objectives we set for the e-visa project at its commencement.

I presume the correct way of portraying the situation would be that there was an evaluation and that the evaluation merited the continued placement of the equipment there.

Mr. Neville Kenny

Indeed, and that evaluation also allows us to move forward to other locations as resources, both human and financial, allow.

Mr. Martin Callinan

If I may interject, I wish to highlight the fact that fingerprints can be taken at a later point once there is subsequent registration.

The Commissioner is the Accounting Officer for Vote 20. I was struck by the number of supplementary budgets. The Commissioner will be able to give the committee a much better insight into the needs of policing than anyone on this side of the table, but it is rather unusual when examining an account for any governmental expenditure to have so many supplementary budgets. It is quite common to have a supplementary budget for some subheads but the fact that, to the best of my recollection, there is a supplementary budget for every single Garda budget subhead, I am not sure if it would be correct to call it unique but it is certainly unusual. I refer to salaries, wages, travel and subsistence, incidental expenses, postal and telecommunications, consultancy services, transport and aircraft. Every single section has a supplementary budget. Is this an issue the Garda Síochána needs to grapple with by means of better financial planning? Is this a situation unique to the Garda Síochána that can be justified?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The management of budgets is a particular issue for every other manager in the Civil Service and public service. It is the case that a number of subheads from time to time are, in our view, under-provided for. This is an ongoing discussion between us and our parent Department. That said, it has been necessary at the end of the year to provide a supplementary budget to balance the books. This was in no small measure due to two singular events. The first was the cost of the State visits of Queen Elizabeth II and President Barack Obama of the United States.

The second event, unfortunately, was a legacy issue in regard to taxation of allowances. Those are two events over which, unfortunately, I had no control because neither was envisaged at the start of the year, and, indeed, preceding the start of 2011, when the Estimates were being discussed. There was a supplementary total of €27.4 million provided for to cover those two area. The rest of the elements of the subheads were provided for within prudent housekeeping and cost savings that I and my officers managed to realise in the context of the overall budget.

I accept that in the case of one or two of the subheads, the Commissioner gave money back. For consultancy services, for example, he had over-budgeted. I would acknowledge that.

What really struck me was that in 2010, on subhead D, transport, the supplementary budget was more than the original budget. It was not, for want of a better financial phrase, a "top-up"; it was more than 100% of what the Commissioner had budgeted originally. Some €14.538 million was the original budget while the supplementary was €14.603 million. I note that €3.075 million related to fleet purchase and the Commissioner alluded to matters such as higher fuel prices, but there still seems to be quite a large gap and I wonder where that arose.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Unfortunately, this is one of the subheads on the Garda budget that we feel has been under funded for many years. Nonetheless, there have been efforts to address that. This year I have been provided with extra funding in recognition of the requirement to maintain the fleet, albeit an ageing one, and the provision of new vehicles to replace some of the older vehicles that have run over the manufacturers' guarantee of 300,000 km. In December 2010, we managed to procure 146 vehicles which were distributed to the force over 2011 and at the end of last year, we managed to procure another 40 that will be distributed during the course of this year in addition to additional funding provided by the Department for additional requirements in the purchase of vehicles.

Our fleet comes to 2,623 vehicles. It includes vans, cars, motorbikes and some four-by-four vehicles - jeeps for the traffic corps. We are moving in the right direction in terms of the provision for transport but it will be a constant challenge to us, particularly with an ageing fleet. In fairness, the Department has recognised that and has tried to provide some adjustment in the budget for us to cater for it.

We all see it in our constituencies. It probably would be wrong to start lobbying for individual patrol cars but I take the point. From the point of view of the Committee of Public Accounts in terms of the accounts, and merely as an observation, it would be desirable to see An Garda Síochána getting to a stage where the original amount budgeted is more linked to reality rather than having a situation where the supplementary budget trumps what was originally budgeted.

On the Croke Park agreement, the Garda has grappled with this in a real way with roster changes. Perhaps the Commissioner might outline to the committee the impact of these changes. At a time when so many people are concerned about the issue of retirements in the protection of front-line services and keeping personnel in Garda stations, he might outline the positive impact or otherwise of these changes.

Mr. Martin Callinan

On the issue of the Croke Park agreement, we have engaged on a number of fronts. I suppose the most significant progress we have made in recent times is on the issue of performance and accountability and, more recently, the issue of rosters. Rosters have been a particular thorn in our side for many years. Huge progress has been made and we are now confident we have arrived at a roster that will both meet the demands and expectations of the public and serve those demands. It has been a particularly difficult process and I should praise all of those involved, particularly the associations which have addressed this very difficult area. When one considers we provide a 24 hour, seven days a week, 365 days a year service, we are a policing and security service, and we have to take into consideration the European working time directive, all of those factors coming together have proved an extremely difficult task for us to arrive at where we believe we now are.

We will be rolling out the new roster arrangement in April. We would have liked to have in place a much more advanced IT system but, unfortunately, time and financial resources do not readily accommodate that. However, we will have in place an IT system to support the type of rostering arrangements we will be bringing forward in April.

It is largely to do with flexibility. Flexibility, as the Deputies will be aware, is a huge issue in the context of meeting the demands and requirements of the Croke Park agreement. We will be staggering the times of personnel reporting for duty and we will make those personnel available in greater numbers at the greatest time of need, for example, Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. This is recognised, I suppose, to a large degree, in some of the inspectors' reports on the issue of meeting the service and the demands with the personnel available to us. We are very conscious of that. I believe the new accommodation with the rosters will service those requirements.

I have a couple of more points. In terms of accessing Garda stations, this is a practical point. I wonder how many Garda stations in the country do not have access for wheelchair users or persons with disabilities. I speak from an experience in my constituency. All the Garda's new buildings are fully up to specification but I wonder at what stage the Garda is with that matter? As Commissioner, can Mr. Callinan give a degree of attention to ensuring that all buildings are wheelchair accessible? This is a serious matter when someone physically cannot get into the Garda station. I wonder whether Mr. Callinan has a handle on how many stations might be involved.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Deputy Harris is correct. We view access to An Garda Síochána for the individual, no matter who he or she may be, as being critical to our core functionality and we are working toward it. The Deputy will be aware - he alluded to it in his question - that many of the buildings that have been erected in the past number of years cater for that. Unfortunately, there are some difficulties with some of the stations we occupy. Of course, quite a number of them are old but, where possible, we will try to facilitate as much access as possible.

It is difficult in the context of reduced budgets to try to make them all accessible but we would hope that where there are issues, we would address all of those through the communication levels available - whether it is information we publish on the website or whether it is community engagement with the local communities - and that if it is the position that persons cannot get in to us, that we would be available to get out to meet those persons and meet those demands.

The final point I want to make relates to how An Garda Síochána is responding to the large increase in female entrants to the Garda, which is a very welcome development. In a similar vein to my previous question, I have visited Garda stations which still do not have any proper changing facilities for female gardaí. I am not an expert but I am sure that integrating female members of An Garda Síochána goes beyond providing separate changing facilities. When new female entrants are assigned to stations in which they do not have access to the same facilities as their male counterparts, does An Garda Síochána have a strategy in place to ensure that matters relating to the provision of such facilities and to protecting the dignity of the officers in question is addressed?

Mr. Martin Callinan

No more than is the case with regard to the Deputy's previous question in respect of wheelchair access, we are working constantly with the Office of Public Works, OPW, in trying to determine lists of priorities. Wheelchair access would obviously be one of those. The point the Deputy has just raised is, perhaps, another, although I am not aware of particular issues.

I can make the issues of which I am aware known to the Commissioner in private, if he so wishes.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Obviously. I suppose when one considers the property portfolio within An Garda Síochána and the diverse nature of the locations, there are bound to be issues arising from time to time. It is very much a work in progress. If there are acute situations in existence, there are very strong mechanisms within the organisation in the context of local, regional and central representation for members of An Garda Síochána at all levels. Where these issues arise and are highlighted, I am sure management will address them. If it becomes a significant problem, then I would certainly intervene in those particular cases. All of these issues are works in progress. As already stated, we are working constantly with the OPW to try to address gaps - whether physical or otherwise - in the system. Approximately 24.5% of our officers are female. That is a reasonably high number. The overwhelming majority of those officers work seamlessly with their male colleagues and I am not aware of any particular issues arising. If there are issues which cannot be resolved locally, I will gladly address them.

I thank the Commissioner.

I congratulate the Commissioner on his appointment and I welcome him and his team. A recent newspaper article indicated that the force is concerned with regard to the fact that, as a result of the age profile of the vehicles involved, the Garda fleet is being reduced at the rate of one car per day. The article also stated that it is only planned to purchase 80 new vehicles this year. Are those figures accurate and how does the Commissioner propose to deal with the situation that has arisen? Is it the case that some 250 vehicles will be removed from the fleet this year and that only 80 new cars will be purchased to replace them?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for his remarks about my appointment. Yes, we are losing a considerable number of vehicles. The challenge we face is that the 300,000 km threshold relating to vehicles - and the fact that manufacturers' guarantees will not be available after that point - is looming over us. There is a requirement on us, in the context of the health and safety legislation, to provide safe vehicles for our members. We are, therefore, conscious of the huge attrition rate. That is partly why the Department saw fit to increase our budget in this area in order that we might deal with the situation which has arisen.

Will the Commissioner clarify the number of vehicles it is expected that the force will lose in 2012 and also the number it will purchase as replacements?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I may have figures for the Deputy. In terms of cars, the figure is 286 per annum, for motorbikes it is 51, for 4x4 jeeps it is nine and for vans it is 36. There are also a number of other vehicles which do not easily fall within those categories. We expect that we will lose a total of 385 vehicles this year. That is a large number of vehicles. It must be remembered that we have 2,623 vehicles at our disposal but I accept there are huge challenges in trying to maintain the Garda fleet. We have put in place a reform programme in place to try to deal with these efficiencies and cost savings. We are no different from anyone else in that regard. Deputy Commissioner Rice is considering this matter on my behalf. There will be a requirement for us to use the vehicles at our disposal much more smartly.

I understand the Garda is moving some of its vehicles from cities to rural areas to compensate for the losses that have occurred there. Is the traffic corps losing vehicles to supplement the part of the fleet that operates in rural areas? Has the traffic corps fleet been downsized and has its effectiveness been reduced as a result?

Mr. Martin Callinan

There are approximately 342 vehicles available nationally to the traffic corps. Of course we are losing some of our members in the traffic corps. There was a commitment to maintaining the corps at 1,200. Unfortunately, the number of officers in the corps has fallen to between 900 and 1,000. That is a consequence of where we are. To answer the Deputy's question, there will be difficulties in managing the situation. However, the essential business we are in of providing a service to the public is not being affected in the context of patrol cars and vehicles generally. The challenge for us is to ensure we provide the type of vehicles that are required in order that where people in communities are expecting the delivery of a service, we will provide it. There might be difficulties in doing that and it might not always be the case that we would have the requisite number of cars available. We are, however, managing the process within reason.

How many cars does the Commissioner expect will come on stream this year?

Mr. Martin Callinan

We have a tender almost in readiness. As of December of last year, we managed to procure 40 cars and they will be coming on stream in the coming weeks and months. The tender to which I refer is almost ready and we will have a budget of approximately €2.3 million for the purchase of new cars this year. Obviously, we will try to obtain the best value for money in that context.

I appreciate that the Commissioner cannot put a figure on it. If one is going out to tender with a particular sum, one cannot state that one expects to purchase X number of cars.

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is the point.

Is there a band within which the force will be operating in this regard? Is there an approximate figure in respect of the number of cars it is expected to purchase? I am merely trying to establish what will be the net number of cars lost this year.

Mr. Martin Callinan

As the Deputy states, it is difficult to predict and we are obviously going to seek the best value for money. I am informed that we are probably looking at 100 vehicles in this regard.

Is that the loss of 100 vehicles?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes. Having said that, I hope I have not jeopardised our tender.

Is the Commissioner referring to the purchase of vehicles in this regard?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes.

In 2007 there was some criticism regarding the procurement of Garda cars. What procurement process is used by the force now in the context of the bulk buying of vehicles? A previous report relating to the procurement of Garda vehicles indicated that there was a lack of such bulk buying. Do I understand that there will be a single bulk purchase of vehicles this year?

Mr. Martin Callinan

As the Deputy is aware, we are obliged, by means of a statutory requirement, to place all of these contracts in the EU Journal. All we can do is specify the type and range of vehicles we require. Thereafter, we must allow the process to take its course. In the context of the budget, we are essentially talking about bulk buying.

I would be the first to accept that, as with all other public service organisations, the Garda is under severe pressure as a result of the moratorium on recruitment and the numbers of officers leaving the force. The Commissioner indicated that 293 officers are due to leave by the end of February. It has been reported that many officers in senior management positions will be leaving. Does the Commissioner have figures for the number of assistant commissioners, chief superintendents and superintendents, people with a vast amount of experience, who will be leaving the force?

Mr. Martin Callinan

At present there are three vacancies for the rank of assistant commissioner. As members have probably read in the newspaper, the assistant commissioner in charge of the Dublin metropolitan area, Assistant Commissioner Feehan, has signalled his intention to retire later this month. I will then have four vacancies at the rank of assistant commissioner. In terms of the rank of chief superintendent, between now and the end of February I will have 19 vacancies. In terms of superintendents, between now and the end of February I will have 49 vacancies. There will be consequential vacancies as a result of people being promoted.

How does the Commissioner plan to deal with that? It is a significant amount of people from the upper management team. The Commissioner will be working with a much smaller group of managers. What plan does he have in place to deal with the situation? I assume some districts or divisions will be missing superintendents or chief superintendents. How will the Commissioner deal with those losses?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes, that is the situation as we speak. We have some senior management in An Garda Síochána managing two regions, which is proving to be difficult. As one moves down the organisation into the next level - chief superintendent - a number of them are managing two divisions. Equally so, when one moves down further into the superintendent ranks, a number of districts are being managed on the double. That has been the situation for some time.

The parent Department is fully aware of the situation and we are working through the process. Members will have heard the Minister's remarks as late as yesterday. I am satisfied that there will be movement in the very near future to try to address the situation. It is extremely important to me as Commissioner that all of those positions are filled as soon as possible. By that I mean by all of the people who are on lists waiting to be promoted. Even with all of those lists being accommodated and those promotions filled there is still a significant gap.

We are looking at the issue in the context of the reform and review process that is ongoing. I mentioned the Garda response to a changing environment, GRACE, programme. Like every other organisation in the Civil Service and public service we are going through huge change. We are looking at areas where perhaps we can redefine our model in terms of stations and districts. That will have a domino effect on the number of officers we will need. That is an ongoing process.

I view it as essential that all of the people on the promotion lists would be promoted as quickly as possible and even then there will be considerable gaps in some areas and there will still be a requirement for some of those officers to whom I referred to double up, so to speak.

If people are being promoted into management positions and there is a moratorium on recruitment, the corollary is that more people are leaving front line positions. That is not to denigrate management positions, which are important, but one is seeing an adjustment of staff from the front line up to management.

The Commissioner said something in this opening statement about managing public expectations. What does he mean by that in the context of the budget going from €1.4 billion last year to €1.2 billion? Is it the case that he is simply not able to provide the service he did previously? Will the reduction in funding mean that changes will be required?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I will reverse a little before I answer the question. In the context of the point Deputy Nolan made about front line services it would be remiss of me not to indicate to the Chairman and the committee that an issue arises about the number of people on the lower ranks who have left as well. I made the point about senior management in the context of the change programme and the management and control of the force. That is the only reason I mentioned the senior officers who are available for promotion as we speak. We do not have a list, for instance, for the promotion of sergeants or inspectors. That is something the Department has given me permission to run and that will be rolling out soon. We can watch that space in terms of what will happen in that regard.

To turn to the issue of managing public expectation and doing things differently, it goes without saying that when one has reduced personnel and financial resources there is a requirement to focus on how one does one's business. We are very much focused on an intelligence-led type policing that is time-bound and that produces value for money. For instance, in the areas where Garda stations will be closing down it will be extremely important that we communicate the message to those communities and the leaders in those communities that the service we have been providing will not diminish. I hope, and it is certainly our intention, that it will be more efficient and that we will have an even better service for those areas. It is about managing those types of expectations.

The Deputy will be aware that a number of stations will have reduced opening hours but that does not mean those stations are closing; far from it. It means that the resources within those stations will now be in a position to provide other types of duty to the service of the State. What I was talking about was managing those types of expectations.

Okay. That is a fair point. What are the criteria for selecting the 39 Garda stations that will close this year? Is it simply usage?

Mr. Martin Callinan

We looked at a number of issues. Volume of business was part of it. Then we looked at the demographics and the availability of Garda stations in the area. We looked at how close 24-hour stations were to the area and whether a more efficient service could be provided by clustering people involved in stations. In the case of a one man or two man operation we might be able to conduct our business more efficiently by clustering the resources and providing a more fulsome service. We do not intend to abandon the people in those communities. It is important that I make that message loud and clear today, as I have done. People who have been involved in those areas and stations will have attendant responsibilities towards those communities. We are not going to leave anyone behind in this process and we will not forget about our duties and responsibilities. Senior management in An Garda Síochána, as well as me, are alive to the sensitivity of these issues and the difficulties communities have in grappling with the major issue of the fear of crime. We are conscious of that.

I accept the Commissioner's point. There is no doubt that it is a sensitive issue for communities. The post office is gone and the Garda stations are going and they only have the school left. Communities are shrinking. It more than just a Garda station, it is part of the identity of the community.

What is the property management plan for the 39 stations? When stations are closed will the premises be leased or sold? Are they managed? What will happen to the sites that are no longer being used?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Almost all of the stations are the property of the Office of Public Works. We are just sitting tenants, so to speak. It will be a matter for the OPW to decide.

Does the Commissioner indicate to the OPW whether he wants to continue to retain the station or does he say it is a vacant property and that it is being handed over or should be sold? Of the stations that are closed, how many has the Commissioner indicated are no longer of any use within the service?

Mr. Martin Callinan

As we speak, none of the stations is closed but it is a programme of work that is ongoing and we will be indicating to the Office of Public Works that we will hand them over and that we no longer require them for Garda purposes.

I know the Commissioner is going through that process but how many stations at the end of this process does he consider will be handed back to the OPW?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Does the Chairman mean into the future?

Yes. In the course of this year.

Mr. Martin Callinan

This year is catered for - it will be 39. It is our intention to hand all those over.

All of them.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes.

We are considering the 2010 accounts and under the miscellaneous items note on the appropriations account, I note some of the figures for claims against the force and for claims of legal costs seem quite high. For personal injuries claims the figure is €2.7 million and for claims made by members under the Garda Síochána (Compensation) Acts the figure is €7.5 million and goes up to approximately €17 million. Are these not covered by insurance rather than coming through the Garda Síochána accounts?

The figure for the occupational injury scheme comes in at approximately €194,000 and there were 3,000 claims under it. The strength of the force is approximately 15,000 or 16,000, if there are 3,000 claims, it means that one in five people are claiming under this scheme. What does that scheme cover and why are so many people claiming under it?

Mr. Martin Callinan

There is quite a number of claims as the Deputy rightly pointed out. Unfortunately, many of our members get injured on duty. It is the case that we are involved in confrontational situations and people are entitled to make a claim and there is nothing I can do about that. There is work going on as we speak in the context of the State Claims Agency and it is our intention to bring all these internal claims into that arena but I understand it is subject to some legislative arrangement being put in place. We are hopeful it will speed up the process and reduce the amount of legal fees, which are a considerable cost.

In terms of the wider context, that of members of the public making claims against us, unfortunately, I am caught in the same position in that people are entitled to consult their solicitors and bring actions against the Garda. The range is broad in terms of the claims that are made, some are for personal injury and some are for other issues but, where possible, we will defend those actions, and defend them vigorously, but it is quite expensive to do that. It is a fact of life that these claims are being made, irrespective of whether they are justifiable, and in circumstances where we believe they are not, we will vigorously defend them regardless of the cost and, otherwise, we will make every effort to settle and reach a compromise in those claims to everyone's satisfaction in the most economical way we can.

What is the occupational injuries scheme? There are 2,900 claims under it and they are for approximately €60 each on average. There were 2,900 under it and the figure for them comes to €194,000. I would like to know what that covers or an example of what we are talking about in this respect.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Can the director help me with the individual claims?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The Deputy's question, as I understand it, is about the amount paid out under the scheme versus the amount of the claims, and that the awards seem quite small.

Mr. Michael Culhane

If members are injured on duty, there are entitled to claim for the consequent injury they suffer. In terms of the amounts awarded, they vary depending on the nature of the injury and, therefore, awards can be quite small relative to some large awards. In terms of the average award the Deputy has given, has he calculated it by dividing the number of members into the total amount awarded?

According to the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in terms of the 2010 accounts, there were 2,919 claims under the occupational injuries scheme and that cost a total of €194,000. I took the figure of €194,000 and divided it by three and got an average figure of €60 per claim. I am not sure if those figures are accurate.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I suggest that we prepare a note on this for the committee. I would have a difficulty reconciling those figures. They do not equate in my mind. If it is acceptable to the Chairman and the committee, we will prepare a note on that.

Is what the Deputy is seeking a general profile of the level of claims?

It is in respect of this specific area. I can show the information to the Comptroller and Auditor General after the meeting.

A note on this will cover that.

That would be fine.

That is fine, Commissioner. A note would cover this.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am obliged, Chairman.

Any member can make a mistake and be negligent by accident and I am not saying that every claim deserves that a member be punished but in cases where members of the public make claims against a garda or a Garda station, can a garda be disciplined for being negligent and for costing the Garda money in terms of claims?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes. I thank the Deputy for that question. There is that mechanism in place. We have disciplinary procedures that we can follow where there is negligence.

Does that happen often?

Mr. Martin Callinan

We have a very active disciplinary section. I do not have figures for the Deputy but I can assure him it is my intention that everyone would stay within the law and within the regulations. We have a number of disciplinary matters. There is also the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, to which members of the public can make a complaint against the Garda, so we share that burden.

I thank the Commissioner.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Thank you, Deputy.

I thank the Commissioner for his contribution. I have seen in my constituency the degree to which gardaí have changed their work practices and parts of their culture in terms of how they engage with local communities through the use of policing fora and engaging with community organisations which hold meetings in Garda stations where gardaí provide statistics and a degree of accountability to local residents which is effective and very much appreciated. I have seen that change take place during the past eight years. Originally the gardaí would have been asked the number of burglaries that took place within a district and they would not have had the information because it was not immediately available or if they had it, they would have been uncomfortable about sharing it. Now a number of years later, gardaí will say this is the number of burglaries, this is what we have done in regard to them, this is the number of public order offences and this is what has happened. I want to affirm the great value of that happening and acknowledge the commitment of the gardaí who do that on a regular basis for local communities. I also acknowledge, as I know my colleagues would, that in recent weeks I have seen gardaí handle a very difficult incident in very fraught circumstances. The professionalism they demonstrated when doing that took me aback I want to acknowledge that to the Commissioner when I have the opportunity to do so.

I turn to a matter the Commissioner referred to in his contribution, which is how he can more effectively use the existing resources he has in light of the circumstances we are in. He referred a number of times to the use of systems in place in allowing him to do that. In preparing for this session, I had an opportunity to read the report of the Garda Síochána inspectorate on resource allocation which I understood was published last year. A detailed analysis was carried out of the use of the resources within the Garda Síochána, regional differences, and so on and the report made a number of recommendations in that respect, on which I would appreciate hearing the Commissioner's perspective. The main theme of the report, to which I am sure the Commissioner will refer, states:

A key issue emerging in the early chapters of the report is that the Garda Síochána does not have the systems in place to measure workload. "Time" data from the computer aided dispatch (CAD) system in the Dublin Metropolitan Region ... is incomplete and is not currently used for resource allocation purposes. Outside Dublin, there is no ... [such system in place] to provide purposeful data on Garda workload and the use of Garda time.

One of the main recommendations of the report is that progress towards delivering this system be accelerated. Will the Garda Commissioner outline the position in respect of the delivery of a CAD system or other system to meet the need that has been identified?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for his kind remarks on the organisation and the way it has handled something that he witnessed regularly. Our mission statement is all about policing excellence and we are all striving to achieve that standard. I take on board what the Deputy said and thank him. The report of the Garda Síochána inspectorate, to which the Deputy referred, is the sixth report to refer to a human resource management system. For many years, we have been grappling with the idea of ensuring the placement of resources where they are most needed and trying to track this system. We are no different from any other police force in Europe or internationally and we have various models. We have been using the Garda establishment redistribution model, GERM, in the recent past to try to match resources with the environment and requirements of policing in that area. This is an ongoing piece of work.

The human resource management system is expensive to run but we have put in a number of ad hoc measures in between. We have a sickness management IT system, for example, for tracking our personnel and, more important, the availability of personnel. There is also the computer aided dispatch, CAD, system, which is basically the command and control system. This is something to which the inspectorate’s report adverted. There were plans to reduce and adopt some of the American models where one would have very few locations - perhaps three nationally - to roll out one’s command and control systems. This has not proved to be possible based on the availability of financial resources. What we have been doing in four urban areas is to model the command and control system we have in place in Harcourt Square which manages the Dublin region.

I apologise for interrupting Mr. Callinan. Will he explain how the system works? Does it look at the incidents that are reported to the Garda to understand how the Garda responds and the time it takes to respond? Is that the type of thing it does?

Mr. Martin Callinan

It records all of the cries for help. All of the calls received by the Garda on the 999 system and otherwise come through this particular centre. The messages are communicated out to the patrol cars and resources on the street to deal with these calls. There is, if one likes, a command log from the time of the first call until arrival on the scene, how the incident is progressed, the people who are notified, the nature of the call and whether there are other alerts or further assistance. All those things are logged. There is a package in place for examining, at a later point, how the call was handled, from A to Z. This system is in place and is being replicated in four other centres nationally to ascertain whether we can use it as an appropriate system in the absence of spending huge amounts of money on a system that is not available at the moment.

Will it provide information to the Commissioner and his management team on the responses of different areas and enable them to understand if resources are being deployed in the right manner to the areas in question?

Mr. Martin Callinan

It does not quite go that far. It is a computer aided dispatch system, a little like what one has in America and other places. What it will do is give one a picture and inform management about the level of activity occurring in the area, region, district or division and how those calls and cries for help are being managed. There is a whole range of policing disciplines going on outside of that which require Garda attention and may not come into the system. A great deal of community based activity, for instance, issues around the joint policing committees, JPCs, to which the Deputy adverted, including the information flow from those particular fora and the requirement for local gardaí to handle and engage with some of those issues, is not necessarily recorded on this particular command and control system. Chief superintendents in the division who manage a number of districts and superintendents who manage a district will have to inform themselves of those types of activities and responses in conjunction with all of the other areas of activity that are going on and match the demand with the resources that are available to them. That is an ongoing process, which will continue forever and has been a constant challenge to us in delivering the type of efficiency and effectiveness about which I spoke a little earlier.

On the Commissioner's point on managing human resources, the report contains much that is positive and provides detail on what is being done well. I am focusing, however, on the recommendations it makes. It notes that existing Garda leave, sick leave and overtime systems are disjointed and do not give Garda management the information it needs to ensure resources are deployed to the maximum benefit of the community. It states that "serious system issues" arise regarding the management of human resources. Is the Commissioner satisfied that the work he described addresses this observation or is other action being taken to provide the integrated system required to manage the resources at the disposal of the Garda?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The system I spoke about for managing the type of resources we discussed is known as the SAMS, sickness absence management system. This will, to a degree, take care of tracking people who are available for duty versus the people who are not available, whether through sickness or rostered rest periods. While it does not have all the bells and whistles, it certainly goes some way towards providing an electronic account of the resources that are available to managers locally.

Is that system in operation?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes.

Was a system such as the SAMS in operation when the report was done?

Mr. Martin Callinan

No.

It is a response to observations in the report and elsewhere on how the Garda is making use of available resources.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Absolutely. I spoke a little earlier about the new rostering system, how we try to match supply with demand and the absolute need to have a highly integrated information technology system in place to manage all the requirements that are imposed upon us under the European working time directive. It is important that we achieve the right balance as quickly as possible in terms of the most suitable information technology available to us. However, we have in place a system which will, in a rather robust manner, track those issues for us at the moment.

That is good to hear and it is good to learn that it happened in response to the point made in the report.

I propose to briefly discuss another recommendation in the report on how the 999 facility operates. Mr. Callinan described, very appropriately, all the contacts the Garda receives as "cries for help" which is what 999 calls are. The report makes a recommendation that the number of Garda control rooms be rationalised to have two national centres taking all emergency calls and distributing them appropriately. How does the 999 call system work at present? Has action been taken on foot of this recommendation?

Mr. Martin Callinan

In every Garda division, we have a radio control room. At present, that involves the computer-aided despatch. Unfortunately, we do not have computer records running in all of those rooms so there is a manual system in operation. The pilot programme I spoke about which is trying to mirror the command-and-control system here in Dublin will cater for some form of IT platform around those centres. That is a work in progress. Initially, it was believed we could have two, or perhaps three, of these control rooms nationally but it is a huge job and, unfortunately, the financial resources are just not available. There is no easier way of explaining it to the members. We are, in the meantime, taking the measures I have pointed out to provide some sort of assistance electronically to management so it can monitor activity in terms of the cries for help that I spoke about.

I thank the Commissioner.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Choimisinéir. I would like to probe further the Commissioner's manning levels. The moratorium on recruitment and the exit of 293 members must comprise an unhappy coincidence for the Commissioner and they must be putting pressure on the delivery of services. Is this a correct assumption?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am delighted that is the question and I thank the Deputy for welcoming me. Of course, it would be foolish in the extreme not to acknowledge the difficulties and challenges we face owing to reducing numbers and reduced financial resources. That said, it is up to me and my senior management to ensure the service we have in place is maintained. Of course, the reduction will have an impact on the service that can be delivered. Will it have an impact to the point where we are not as effective as we have been? I am not seeing any evidence of that yet. It is my intention, through the plans I will put in place with my senior colleagues, to ensure that we maintain that level of effectiveness.

That manning and staffing levels have been affected so negatively is clearly not desirable given the mission for policing excellence to which I know the Commissioner is committed.

Mr. Martin Callinan

The reality is that we would all like to have more resources and money. We all understand that but, for as long as I can provide the type of service I espouse, I will feel I am fulfilling my role and mission in life. All members of the senior command are fully committed to delivering that type of service. There will be different ways of delivering it. We spoke about station closures earlier. We spoke about having a more intelligence-led and intelligence-driven operations front, time constraints, value for money, etc.

Certainly. If the Commissioner does not mind, I would like to refer to stations. I have the working assumption that the Commissioner let the Minister know on behalf of his organisation that cutting the number of gardaí does not represent a good day's work and is not a good outcome for the Garda as service provider and, more important, for the community. Circumstances are tough and evidence suggests that when the economy and communities are under stress, there is a rise in the crime level. Has the Commissioner had this conversation with the Minister?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I have had very clear communication with the Minister for Justice and Equality. We both have a very clear understanding of the requirements. I, as Commissioner, have a very clear understanding of the obligations placed on me, both the obligations to my members and obligations in terms of providing the type of service about which I spoke. We are all aware of the issues and the need to provide a police and security service that is fit for purpose. We are working towards that.

I am not questioning the Commissioner's commitment in that regard. I want to establish from the horse's mouth - I use the term in the most respectful sense - whether the Minister has made available the kinds of resources the Commissioner requires to do his job on behalf of the citizens of the State.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I can only repeat what I just said to the Deputy. We would all like to have more resources, be they human or financial. In so far as I can, I must provide the type of service that has already been in place. That is my commitment to the Minister, this committee and the public. Since we provide the Minister and the Department the figures very regularly, they will not be surprised about the attrition rates within An Garda Síochána over the past 12 to 14 months.

The Commissioner is, understandably, careful in regard to his role and what he might say. I am pressing this issue because if I were in his shoes, I would be having a very direct conversation with the Minister in respect of what he, the Commissioner, can and cannot do with reduced resources. The line from the Government is that one should do more with less. Irrespective of whether the Commissioner accepts that line of argument, there comes a point where one simply cannot sustain one's position. I do not query the Commissioner's commitment to his role; it is a matter of ensuring my point is communicated to the Minister.

Has the Commissioner a contingency plan? We have been told each Department under the aegis of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has in place contingency plans. What is the position on the Garda?

Mr. Martin Callinan

There are a number of fronts in respect of looking at our business and what we do. With regard to contingency and human resources, there are, as I indicated, a number of people currently on the promotion list - three at assistant commissioner level, 12 at chief superintendent level and 36-----

I have those figures.

Mr. Martin Callinan

The Deputy has the figures. My view is that those positions, in their entirety, would be filled.

They are to be filled.

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is my contingency.

Can I press the Commissioner on that? I understand the point. It would be most unreasonable of the Minister not to ensure those positions are filled as a matter of urgency. There is a moratorium in place. There are 293 personnel exiting the system. Therefore, what is the contingency plan? If the senior positions are filled, what will be the contingency plan further down the ranks? The loss of personnel will not be insignificant. We have been told the contingency plan will ensure front line gardaí on the beat will still be in position. Is the contingency plan advanced and worked out to that level?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Absolutely. I have spoken about the GRACE programme and how we envisage the Garda's changing environment. The issues we spoke about speak to some aspects of the Deputy's question. I envisage more clustering of resources in areas where there is a demand to provide a service when, for instance, we close a station. We also are examining divisions and districts to see what kind of refinements we can put in place there. This has been an ongoing piece of work since mid to late last year. Moreover, it will continue and is a constant. Consequently, when the Deputy talks about contingencies and plans the Garda has in place, I note this is an ever-revolving cycle of work.

The reason I raised it is the term, "contingency plan", is not mine. It is the position of the Government that such contingency plans exist. Deputy Donohoe and I share a constituency and he has correctly identified the sterling work done by community gardaí in particular. However, the major criticism of the Garda service I encounter most often relates to response time. When an incident occurs, the Garda Síochána is contacted but is not seen for hours or unfortunately, in some cases, is not seen at all. In reference to contingency and the front line, the bottom line is whether the Commissioner is in a position to reassure the average person the response time measure will not disimprove.

As for the contingency plan, I note the Government has indicated it will sanction a level of recruitment. It is ironic that one has an exit strategy and then sanction for new posts. Has the Commissioner being given an indication the Garda Síochána might have additional posts sanctioned as part of its contingency planning and as part of that strategy to maintain the front-line service?

I remind members generally that we cannot get into policy matters.

Certainly. However my question is whether there has been an indication to the Commissioner that new posts may be sanctioned.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy and the Chairman. To respond to the earlier elements of the Deputy's question with regard to Garda response and response times, of course it is my intention as Commissioner to ensure the type of service level we have provided stays in place. To my knowledge, no diminution of this has happened to date. While it would be foolhardy of me to talk about individual cases in which particular issues have arisen, I am talking of the general threshold of the service we provide. My point to the committee, by way of reassuring the public, is that we have not yet reached the point at which the service we provide is such or has debilitated to the degree that it simply is not working. It is my intention and that of the senior command working with me that the levels of operational effectiveness we have in place will remain. I repeat this for the record and to provide reassurance to the public. Thereafter, in respect of the resource issue, the Deputy is aware there is a moratorium and I do not have any indication beyond that I must work within those resources. Consequently, the practical effect of looking for the promotions that I have indicated to members would be desirable in terms of the senior command is they must come from within the cadre of people who are currently with the organisation. Thereafter, as the Chairman has indicated to the Deputy, I am afraid I would be straying into the issue of policy and I really cannot comment on that. That would be a matter for the Minister.

I would not ask the Commissioner to do so. However, from his response I take it there has been no communication to the Commissioner to the effect that additional resources will be sanctioned. This is all I wished to establish. Has the Commissioner crunched the numbers in respect of the savings that would accrue with the exit of the aforementioned 293 personnel? The chief executive of the Health Service Executive, Mr. Cathal Magee, appeared before the committee last week and set out the figures in respect of the executive. Does the Commissioner have these figures to hand?

Mr. Martin Callinan

No, I do not have those figures to hand.

Okay. Would it be possible to provide these figures to the committee at a later juncture?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am sure it is possible to get those figures. However, from a practical perspective it would make sense that on foot of these people moving out, the payroll budget certainly has been reduced. While one takes account of responsibilities such as gratuities being paid, from a practical perspective my own sense is that what one is dealing with here is a reduction in the payroll budget and that is where the savings will arise. I do not have the figures available regarding the precise numbers.

We asked the HSE for this information last week and will be getting the paperwork as soon as the executive has prepared it. We are trying to establish how much the Commissioner thinks will be saved by all of this taking place, as opposed to the cost of the lump sums being paid and the losses in superannuation contributions. We are trying to establish what is the real savings figure and we are trying to establish this from different Departments and Accounting Officers in the context of work, the Croke Park deal and so on. It would be helpful to the committee were the Commissioner to try to establish over time exactly what are those figures. Last week, Mr. Magee indicated the savings were not in fact what was planned but were substantially less than what we were being told. Consequently, as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, we would like to understand this from the Garda's perspective and I seek those figures as soon as the Commissioner has had them assessed.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman for that clarification. While I do not know whether this is an indicator for the committee, my payroll budget has been reduced by €11.5 million in the context of what is being estimated for this year and beyond.

However, in the context of the questions raised, I ask the Commissioner to consider those who are retiring, the cost of those retirements and associated packages, as well as how they have an impact on the savings that were to be made and whether the savings are as substantial as first forecast. Alternatively, is it the case that this is at break-even or are there no savings at all? This does not so much reflect on the cut in salaries but on the overall package in respect of the savings from the Croke Park agreement and so on.

It relates specifically to the loss of personnel under the early retirement scheme. It pertains to the gross saving and then crucially to the net saving when one takes into account pensions paid, any lump sums or gratuities, the loss of superannuation contributions and so on. I take it the Commissioner will provide members with this information and I thank him for it.

We can set this out in a letter of request to the Commissioner in order that clear lines between us in this regard have been established.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am obliged to the Chairman and thank him.

While I understand other members wish to contribute, if the Commissioner does not mind I wish to raise another extremely important issue with him. It pertains to the findings of the Garda Inspectorate regarding the record-keeping of sexual offences against children. It is astonishing that the inspectorate has stated the record-keeping was so poor that up to 65% of such offences were not properly recorded. The findings go further and state this undermines the global figures for this type of crime. While I do not want the Commissioner to stray into the area of policy, I ask him to comment on the findings from the perspective of good procedure and good practice. It is clear that a major problem exists in this regard that must be fixed. Is it all right, a Chathaoirligh, for me to put that point to the Commissioner?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman and Deputy. I will make a couple of points in this regard. First, we obviously are in receipt of the inspectorate's report. At the time when that report was formulated in 2009, there were robust discussions on how we recorded some of the issues and I do not think it appropriate to go into it at this forum. However, what we have done subsequently is to have issued a comprehensive policy, which is a guideline to every member of the Garda involved in this area. The policy talks about the investigation of sexual offences generally, the investigation of offences against children and vulnerable adults, specialist interviewing and the welfare of children and vulnerable adults. Implicit in our policing plans is a very key priority of engaging with people who make complaints and dealing with them in a very meaningful, respectful and confidential manner.

I do not mean to trivialise the recommendations that flowed from the report which, of course, we accept in total - there is no issue at all between us - but there were different interpretations as to how one would record some of the matters coming to our attention in the first instance. We have moved way beyond that now. We have put in place an IT facility where all incidents of that nature coming to our attention are recorded immediately. Whether or not they subsequently pan out to be correct is a different matter but they are recorded in that fashion. That appeared to be the biggest difference around the issue of recording. We take all of these issues very seriously.

We now have seven interview suites in place. We have trained more than 80 officers from the Garda Síochána and 20 officers from the HSE in the area of specialist child investigation where they deal with young vulnerable adults and children. These interview suites are in locations that remain anonymous. We have very strict guidelines around the use of those facilities and we ensure, as far as possible, that the notion of the walk of shame and the idea of a uniformed member in or around the child or vulnerable adult is not interpreted in a certain way. There is a system in place now to deal, on a confidential and a very private basis, with people who are victims.

There is a huge realisation-----

Is the Commissioner saying that since 2009, those very serious flaws in respect of record-keeping have been addressed? Is he satisfied that those matters have been resolved?

Mr. Martin Callinan

All of the areas that have been identified in the report have received huge attention since and the overwhelming majority of those areas have been dealt with. There is work in progress in regard to a very small number. If the Deputy takes it that this is the seventh report from the inspectorate, we have 233 recommendations thus far, including this particular report. That is a significant number of recommendations made across a whole range of policing disciplines. Practically all of them, with the notable exception of some of the IT infrastructures which need to be put in place but which cannot be because of financial resources, have been attended to. Indeed, the chief inspector, Kathleen O'Toole, has acknowledged in her report that is so and that we have moved on and made the type of progress she would have expected to see in the context of those recommendations. That is independent acknowledgement that we have dealt with those.

In the context of a reduced personnel complement, is the Commissioner satisfied that work, which he said has moved on substantially but which is not yet entirely complete, will not be undermined, frustrated or delayed by manpower issues?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am absolutely satisfied.

I thank the Commissioner for his time. With 24.5% of women in its ranks, the Garda Síochána is well ahead of the Dáil. It does not have the 50:50 split yet but the figure is commendable and very encouraging.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am sure the Deputy Commissioner, Ms Noirín O'Suillivan, will be very pleased with the Deputy's comment. I thank her.

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. I wish to raise three issues, the first being the State visits last year by Queen Elizabeth II and President Obama which must have been security nightmares - for the want of a better word - for the Garda Síochána. They were massive security operations, in particular in the context of the Queen's visit because not too many years ago, it would have been unimaginable. The security operation was massive and it was literally incident free. It was a great testament to all levels of An Garda Síochána. It was not only management which had to deal with the policing plan but rank and file gardaí who were working in very difficult circumstances. For it to be incident free was outstanding because the expectation would have been otherwise, and that is no reflection on An Garda Síochána, given the political sensitivities, in particular with the visit of the Queen. I commend the Commissioner and all levels of An Garda Síochána on what was an outstanding operation. There was worldwide attention on us for those few days and if something had gone wrong, it would have reflected very badly on our country.

What was the cost of policing for those two operations? What was the agreement in terms of meeting those costs? In advance of those visits, there would obviously have been inter-departmental and top level discussions between the Government, An Garda Síochána and other parties. What agreement was made in terms of meeting those costs? What was the final figure? Who footed the bill, if it has been at this stage?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for his very kind remarks in the context of the two visits, in particular that of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. As he rightly said, it presented a very unique and significant challenge to An Garda Síochána for a variety of reasons, some of which are very obvious but more perhaps less so.

The outrun in terms of the final cost came to €35.884 million. There were many reasons that was so. I should say in the context of the visits that a figure of €20 million was in the public domain and then all of a sudden this ran out to €36 million. I would have a very different view of the actual outrun and why it was so and I have already explained that to the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and his officials. It provided absolute value for money and the organisation has been independently audited in terms of the expenditure and we have managed - surprise, surprise - to come out with a clean bill of health.

As the Deputy said, it was a very rewarding experience to be the head of the organisation at a time of such significant challenge and when it was incident free. The pictures and the media coverage portrayed a certain image but underneath all of that was a very sinister level of activity by a number of people who were engaged in and can loosely be described as dissident members of the IRA. We had taken particular measures in the context of the visit and a number of people are before the courts, so it would be inappropriate of me to go beyond that. However, we put very specific operations in place to address the security measures. They have been explained to both the Ministers I mentioned and to some of their officials. I am absolutely satisfied that we provided value for money on the occasion and I will not go beyond that.

In terms of the issue of the arrangements of cost, etc., there was an acknowledgement very early on that the Garda budget could not sustain the level of financial resource that would be required to put in place this unprecedented level of security and that money would have to be found. Indeed, money was found and provided. In the end, we did not need to ask the Government and the Minister for the amount required, based on a number of efficiencies we put in place.

Will the Commissioner repeat that last point?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Is that point in regard to the cost?

The Commissioner mentioned the Minister.

Mr. Martin Callinan

In the end, we did not need to get the amount of money that was required to be expended on the visits on the basis that we found a number of efficiencies within the system as part of the review we were conducting from the middle of last year. We did get a sum of money as part of the Supplementary Estimate and we got to balance the books at the end of the year.

The closure of rural Garda stations was recently described as an attack on rural Ireland. Such an argument could not be sustained if one closed Harcourt Terrace and Whitehall stations, despite the genuine fears about rural communities. What role did the recording of incidents on PULSE play in determining which stations would be closed?

In rural areas there is as much an emphasis on the prevention of crime as there is on crime detection. Naturally, crime prevention is not entered into the PULSE system which makes it difficult to calculate the number of crimes prevented. What role did the statistics from the PULSE system play in arriving at those decisions on the closure of Garda stations?

Mr. Martin Callinan

We dealt with the criteria used briefly earlier. We looked at an activity-demand analysis and the PULSE system was used as it is the conduit for recording some of those incidents. It was not, however, the catalyst for a decision. For example, if we saw three or four entries on a PULSE system for a week, we did not use that as the sole criterion for closing the station. The decisions were based on an activity-demand analysis.

Other issues came into play such as was there a 24-7 service available nearby to a station and what other stations were in the catchment area which could provide the type of service required. Essentially, it was about local management coming back to the centre indicating it was satisfied it could provide the type of service required and even, perhaps, improve on it with the closure of certain stations.

How many Garda helicopters are there?

Mr. Martin Callinan

There are two.

They are quite expensive to run. How are their running costs measured? How often are they used? Are their operations limited?

Mr. Martin Callinan

When we call on the Garda helicopter, it is for focused targeted operations. They do not fly on patrol but as required. There would be a certain demand to go outside that brief in restricted circumstances. By and large, we tailor the flying hours to specific demands. It is essentially task-orientated and that is how we have saved some moneys in this budget.

When the economic downturn hit, some expected an increase in crime levels. That, however, has not happened. Nonetheless, in my dealings over the past 18 months with regular, mid-ranking and senior gardaí they have informed me that different crimes are now perpetrated with more violence. It seems to be a strain throughout their dealings with criminals. As the force is downsizing in the lower ranks, are those who remain equipped to deal with a changing society in which violence is more prevalent than previously? Do they need to be retrained to deal with these issues? Do they have the technology, including non-lethal weaponry, to deal with these changing times in policing?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The nexus between the economic decline and the level of violence and crime generally is a point with which many academics and practitioners have grappled over the years. We now have in place an analysis service which is doing quite an amount of work around this area and trying to determine what kind of effect it is having.

Rather oddly for last year, personal attacks, assaults and public order offences and issues around the night-time economy - if I can put it that way - have reduced, which is extraordinary. Everyone makes the analogy that there will be more crime when there is less money. The converse of that is the increase in burglaries which we have seen, a particular concern.

That is what is coming across to me. I have been told there is more violence in that specific category.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Is the Deputy referring to aggravated types of crime?

Mr. Martin Callinan

There have been several instances about which we are concerned. When one looks at the decrease in general attacks against members of the public, it is safe to say those attacks that do occur are more violent. While the numbers might be reducing, the level of violence is quite vicious.

In our capacity and capability in dealing with these developments, we have changed our equipment. Pepper spray is now issued to all Garda members on duty as well as the ASP baton. In all of the provincial centres, there is a regional support unit meaning there is an armed facility to come to members' assistance. We see particular issues of increased violence in the reduced number of attacks. Aggravated burglaries are becoming quite vicious in style too.

How does one deal with it? Is there a contingency plan to retrain gardaí with long service in the force, say those in their 50s? Outside of the issuing of pepper spray and so on, how will the routine training programme change if violence becomes more prevalent?

Mr. Martin Callinan

There is always a need for continuous professional development and that occurs. We do not have anything in place for physical retraining. Instead, we have largely relied on our skill, training and experience in reducing the level of violence towards gardaí. That is why we are largely an unarmed force and community-based. We favour the weapon of reasonableness and reasoned decision in quelling a situation rather than aggravating it. That is the way the Garda has always worked. Looking at the service profile of the Garda, 42% of the force has ten years service or less. The force's age profile is quite young.

Deputy John Paul Phelan and I drafted a Private Members' Bill on cash for gold shops a year and a half ago. We met the Department on this issue and asked for a report from Mr. Callinan's predecessor. The report concluded there was no need for additional legislation in this area. We have discussed this with the Minister and understand there might be a shift in thinking on this. We are bombarded on television by these cash-for-gold outlets. The gardaí in my constituency have raised concerns with me. It was the reason we drafted that Bill. In south Kilkenny, it was the same with Deputy Phelan. There was substance behind the motivation to do that. It seemed that those in the Phoenix Park did not feel there was a need to legislate for this. Does Mr. Callinan have an opinion about that? Has that changed in any way?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The initial feedback on cash for gold was that there did not seem to be any great number of criminals rushing in the door to exchange their ill-gotten gains with those people engaged in that type of business but there has been a number of recent operations where we have targeted particular premises that we suspected might be involved in this type of activity and we have taken action against those people. It is something that we are watching on a regular basis and it comes up at very senior command level as almost a recurring item on the agenda. We talk about these matters and about the need to target various locations, if and when we see the need for it.

Is there a need for regulation or legislation in the area? Is there something the Oireachtas can do to help?

Mr. Martin Callinan

We are from time to time asked to provide an opinion or a recommendation-----

As was the case in this.

Mr. Martin Callinan

-----absolutely - and that was the outcome based on the material that was coming back to the centre from the regions. It is something that is constantly being evaluated. We have not seen any huge increase in that activity but we have had a number of successful operations in the recent past.

I have a question for Mr. Kenny about numbers of persons entering the country illegally, the kinds of trends we have seen over the past year or two of persons remaining in the country illegally, etc. Would he give us an idea of the present position as opposed to what it might have been five or six years ago?

Mr. Neville Kenny

I would refer to the Minister's press statement in early January last where he indicated the trends over the course of 2011. I do not have every figure at my fingertips but I do have a copy of the statement which I can make available to the Deputy. It captures the reductions that we have seen in the numbers of persons claiming asylum here in Ireland. It also shows the greater numbers of persons who we have managed to return to their countries of origin who have not been shown to need protection here in Ireland.

We have also taken a number of steps or initiatives to improve the controls that we have been operating and, obviously, An Garda Síochána has been playing its role in terms of operating the ports of entry as part of that as well. The Minister has signed a co-operation agreement with his counterpart in the United Kingdom that we have been operating with the United Kingdom to tackle fraud and illegal migration and illegal movement within the common travel area itself.

There has been a number of initiatives taken over the period 2010-11 and, indeed, into this year, to address the issues that we have seen and the Minister is on the record in the past couple of weeks outlining what those have been.

I thank Mr. Kenny.

Before we conclude, I want to clarify a couple of figures if I can. The two figures relate to compensation. Compensation and legal costs totalling €2.75 million were paid in respect of material damage resulting from accidents involving Garda vehicles. It is a note on the account, under point 6 - miscellaneous items. The second one is the compensation and legal costs totalling €7.464 million paid to a number of cases in respect of claims made by members of An Garda Síochána under the Garda Síochána (Compensation) Act 1941. How do those two figures compare to figures of previous years? Is this a figure that is growing year on year. Is there a concern? In both cases, it is a substantial amount of money.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I might defer to the director of finance, Mr. Culhane, to try and help us with that.

The note states that this relates to material damage resulting from accidents involving Garda vehicles. Is that a figure that was paid to members of the public who were involved in these accidents or is it compensation to Garda personnel and the public? It is legal costs and compensation.

Mr. Michael Culhane

What paragraph it is?

It is 6.5 - miscellaneous items.

Mr. Michael Culhane

Which item within that?

Down to 6.5.

Mr. Michael Culhane

The €2.75 million. It would be best if I could get the actual detail on that. I do not have it to hand.

Perhaps Mr. Culhane could come back to my question because it is important. That is a substantial amount of money. I question the figure, alongside the other compensation and legal costs totalling €7.5 million paid to 211 cases in respect of claims by members of An Garda Síochána under the Garda Síochána (Compensation) Act 1941. What is the trend in such figures over the past few years? Is it a source of concern to the Commissioner in terms of the numbers involved and the legal costs involved versus the compensation?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I respectfully suggest that I provide a note for the Chairman on this. Of course, any increase in compensation of an order of magnitude that appears to be out of proportion with that of previous years would be a matter of concern to me as Commissioner. I would like a little more time to look at those figures and come back to the Chairman with a more fulsome response.

When he responds the Commissioner might single out the figure paid in compensation only to members of the public in the past few years. Aside from the legal costs, how many members of the public have taken cases against the Garda Síochána for one reason or another and have been compensated over the past few years? Could we have that figure as well, either before the Commissioner leaves or later, if it is not available directly to him?

My second question relates to court overtime and court appearances generally. Some €15.5 million was paid in overtime for gardaí attending the courts. Is there a way of reducing that overtime bill or a way of having other representation in the court? In Dublin the court presenter model is available to the Garda. Might that become a feature in every court, thereby putting more men and women on the streets and cutting costs?

Alongside that, in terms of the civilians employed in the force, are there more civilians employed in reception in the Garda stations or does the Garda still have a substantial number of stations where it is the gardaí who man reception and do the tasks at that point?

Mr. Martin Callinan

In terms of the first part of the Chairman's question on Garda members serving the courts, we are doing a piece of work around the GRACE programme in the context of this issue. There is a huge amount of overtime expended on serving the courts, particularly by members who are on rest days, etc., and we are working with the Courts Service and others to try to reduce that. We have court presenters and we are trying to work with stakeholders to reduce the amount of time spent in court. That will require agreement with the legal profession and, more importantly, in large trials such as murder trials which involve a cadre of people who were responsible for preserving the scene and a relatively low threshold of evidence, we are trying to arrive at an agreement whereby these people can be excused. There is, of course, provision in the criminal justice legislation to excuse people but that does not obtain in practice. Lawyers are insisting on our members being present in court throughout trials. Reducing this commitment is a work in progress with the stakeholders.

Is legislation required or is it simply a question of management and agreement?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I expect that through the co-operation of various people we will be able to reduce the amount without the need for legislation. Such legislation would probably be serious and difficult to enact given that gardaí are supposed to be available if and when required. A range of people, including the members of the Judiciary, the legal profession, the Courts Service and the Garda, are trying to resolve the problem.

I asked about civilians in garda stations.

Mr. Martin Callinan

A number of civilians work with us in Garda stations. It has been the case that gardaí are the first people who members of the public meet when they arrive at a station. That practice is being examined again under the GRACE programme with a view to deciding whether civilian personnel could deal with the public in the first instance. Administrative functions such as the requirement to produce a driving licence or insurance might be dealt with by civilians but members of the Garda will have to be available to deal with more serious issues, such as complaints.

With regard to the command structure of the Garda, is there a knock-on effect of the decline in the number of foot soldiers on the number of senior officers required or is a certain manpower maintained regardless of how many are employed at lower levels?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The number is ordained by a ranks order but we try to keep the ratio as constant as possible. The ratio usually works out in the order of one sergeant to five or six gardaí and it increases as one moves up because of the span of control. Adjustments will be made as the force shrinks.

I have two specific questions. The first pertains to the administration of gun licences, particularly in respect of sporting clubs and individuals who use a variety of weapons for sport. Do administrative issues take up an undue proportion of the force's time or is a reasoned process in place for the issuance of these licences?

Mr. Martin Callinan

A recent case has highlighted deficiencies in the administrative process but officers of An Garda Síochána are given a serious responsibility in determining whether an individual should be issued with a licence. I can do no more than mention the Newport case as a classic example of what can happen with lethal firearms. We take our obligations very seriously in terms of applying the law, particularly with regard to restricted firearms, and a heavy burden has been placed on our officers in deciding whether an individual should have a particular firearm. That has caused difficulties for some of our members. Based on what has happened in the courts in recent times, I am reviewing the process and will provide a report to the Minister in respect of it. Obviously it is something we will have to consider.

I understand the Commissioner has to be careful to avoid crossing into the cases to which he referred. I wish the gardaí involved in the Newport incident the best. I am referring to legitimate clubs or organisations with a history of individual applications for gun licences solely for sporting purposes. The Garda would know the individuals concerned. Is a significant level of bureaucracy and expense involved in dealing with such applications?

Mr. Martin Callinan

My personal view is that there is not. It is important that any regime ordained to comply with the law in terms of a reasoned decision being given on something as serious as whether an individual should have a lethal firearm at his or her disposal takes all the necessary administrative steps. It is a difficult and sensitive issue. Decent people are applying for licences for restricted firearms and we are aware of the issues arising. Basically, it is a matter for the individual officer, be it a chief superintendent or a superintendent, as to whether a licence will be issued. A process must be put in place to inform that decision and part of this process involves record keeping. This is an area I will be examining very carefully.

My final question pertains to downsizing generally in numbers and administration. I have raised the issue of missing persons in the Dáil on numerous occasions. In my own county, Jo Jo Dullard has been missing for some time. Does the Garda continue to engage with the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, where the Jerry McCabe fellowship was established?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes.

Is there an intention to provide ongoing funding for that project and, perhaps, for cold cases such as that of Jo Jo Dullard in order to remind the public that a number of people have been missing for several years? The Jo Jo Dullard case dates back to 1996. Would it be possible to establish something similar to the missing and exploited persons unit in Washington, which comprises volunteers and FBI agents and is partly funded by private companies? This unit assists in the search for missing people by using milk cartons and leaflets and producing images of what these individuals might look like today. I used the Jo Jo Dullard case as an example but there are other such cases. While I welcome the development of the helpline for juveniles I am concerned that we are not doing enough to publicly present these cases or conduct searches. In the context of downsizing and decreased funding, will the Garda be able to continue investigating these cold cases?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Obviously the loss of a loved one is of great concern to us. Whether one is categorised as a missing person or someone who is presumed to have been killed whatever the circumstances, they are very serious issues. We have always taken the view that cases remain open until such time as we have brought the offender to justice. That is certainly the case in the Jo Jo Dullard investigation as it is with the cases of the other ladies who were involved in Operation Trace, which are well documented. In recent times the empirical evidence is there that we do care and we have put an extraordinary amount of time and energy into some of these cases. Unfortunately for the families in one sense and fortunately in another, we have recovered a number of people in the Dublin Mountains and beyond. This is a huge issue for us. We certainly will never close the books on any case and we will do what we can in terms of trying to locate victims and bring offenders to justice.

We are involved and we are aware from conferences and other fora that we attend in Europe and beyond of the debate that is going on. The chairman has mentioned the FBI and law enforcement in the US, and we are familiar with those systems. Currently there is an assistant commissioner chairing a group looking at the type of initiative the Chairman has just described and it involves working with a number of key stakeholders - telecoms, transport, people in the environment, all of those things - in terms of trying to put together a package and create that type of awareness that the Chairman speaks about. That is a work in progress. Quite a significant advance has been made in some areas. It is called CRI - child rescue Ireland. That is where we are going. We think this is a model that will be suitable to our purpose here on the island of Ireland. We have a very close network structure with our colleagues in the PSNI and, indeed, the UK because of the common travel area. We have an intelligence network system in place there on a police-to-police co-operation basis, but we are working towards actively pursuing some of the matters the Chairman has brought to our attention in terms of creating that type of awareness.

When the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, was a Senator, there were staff there willing to assist with legislation or initiatives that could be taken from their experience in Ireland. There is the constant exchange which I asked about earlier with John Jay College in New York and the US National Center for Missing & Exploited in Washington. I would love to see the Garda engage with those organisations to give hope to parents and family members who have had someone go missing. I would love to see the cases treated in a manner similar to the way they are treated in the US, where public pressure is brought to bear through campaigns on individual cases in order that people are continually reminded of those who are missing. Such initiatives as Amber Alert or Code Adam are significant. There is huge concern with parents and families of missing people. No closure is brought to the cases, of which I know the Commissioner is aware. At a time when we do not have as much funding, we should not lose sight of that. As with the organisations I mentioned, we might get funding from the private sector, if there is an interest there, with people assisting with the investigations driven by the Garda Síochána. I wish to highlight that aspect of the Garda's work.

Mr. Martin Callinan

We are absolutely at one in that context. I probably should have indicated earlier that we have a family liaison officer working with all of these families. Where there is news, we bring it and we have worked, as the Chairman is aware from recent publicity, with some of those external people who may have a valuable input. Indeed, it has been a catalyst for a number of searches in the recent past. We are committed to doing whatever we can and we will deal with all reasonable requests. If we feel there is merit in it having assessed it, we will certainly act on it regardless of the constraints that are placed upon us.

As the Chairman has adverted to, we are absolutely alive to the sensitivities around it. I was the family liaison officer some years ago when the IRA had indicated it was going to give up a number of bodies. I was dealing with families in Northern Ireland who had absolutely no contact with anyone - police or otherwise - in those areas. I am very aware of the need to have the type of communication the Chairman has spoken about and that is what we inculcate in all of the family liaison officers who are dealing with these families. Certainly we would be open to all reasonable steps from wherever help is available to us to provide the type of service that is required in terms of locating individuals.

Would Mr. Buckley like to speak?

Mr. John Buckley

I have very little to say. I wish to clarify one thing. There was some puzzlement about the low average rate for occupational injury claims. I can confirm that in the course of audit, we would hold a schedule of all those claims and in general they are quite small. They can be as low as €2. There may be approximately 400 at €11 each, another 400 at €30 and another at €40. So the tendency is for those claims to be quite low, averaging at €60, and the Commissioner will supply the detail to the committee. For public assurance I wanted to mention they are audited and there are schedules behind them. The average is of that order.

Mr. Martin Callinan

My sense is that basically what we are looking at here is probably loss of property and issues of that nature, but we will do the note for the committee.

Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 20 - Garda Síochána and chapter 21, fingerprint systems? Agreed. I thank the witnesses for attending and wish the Commissioner well in his work.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 1.37 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 9 February 2012.
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