Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jan 2024

Vol. 1048 No. 4

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yesterday, I raised with the Taoiseach the scandal of a wealthy vulture fund buying up 46 of 54 homes at Belcamp Manor in north Dublin. These were homes that should have been available to workers and families to buy, to live in and to call home. Instead, the fund will rent them out for more than €3,000 a month. It is scandalous. Clearly, the Government's measures to stop the funds have not measured up. It is not just Sinn Féin saying this. Department officials warned Government last year that funds were still snapping up family homes from under the noses of ordinary home buyers. Yesterday, the Taoiseach dismissed this issue and sought to downplay what is a very serious problem in the midst of a housing crisis, so I will raise it with him again today.

In the case of the 1,200 homes that have been bulk purchased since the Government introduced its regulations in 2021, it is clear that the funds simply absorbed the 10% stamp duty and then carried on as normal. Nearly 700 of these homes were snapped up here in Dublin, but the vultures also bought up homes in Cork, Carlow, Westmeath, Kildare, Wicklow, Limerick and beyond. Their claws extend far beyond the capital and the damage they are doing is very real. If the bulk purchasing were not bad enough, we now also know that vulture funds bought up 6,000 homes in 2022, 2,000 of which were houses. In the year immediately following the introduction of the Government's regulations, the year after the Taoiseach said the Government was clamping down on these funds, we see that more homes than ever were being bought by these vulture funds. In fact, one in ten of all houses sold was bought by funds that year.

The Taoiseach should not play this down or pretend it is not happening. This is a big problem that cuts to the unfairness at the heart of the housing crisis and you cannot blame young people in particular for feeling that the table is tilted against them. This activity by vulture funds locks people out of home ownership and forces them into the private rental market, where the same funds then charge extortionate levels of rent. The Government also ensures that, when the rent money comes rolling in, funds do not pay a red cent of tax on that income.

Where is the urgency in Government to sort this out? The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, says the Government will review its measures but, as things stand, another Belcamp Manor could happen today if the Government does not act quickly. Tá sé thar am anois ag an Rialtas seasamh suas i gcomhair gnáthcheannaitheoirí tithe. Má tá sé dáiríre faoi stop a chur leis na creach-chistí atá ag ceannach tithe teaghlaigh, tacóidh sé le plean Shinn Féin anocht. Yesterday, the Taoiseach told me, and I believe him, that he does not like to see investment funds buying up family homes en masse, but actions speak louder than words. We have a motion before the Dáil tonight that would stop funds buying up family homes. Every TD can vote tonight to clip the wings of the vulture funds. The Government has a choice to make. It can continue to stand with the vulture funds or it can finally step in decisively on the side of ordinary home buyers and say this stops now. Which choice will you make, Taoiseach?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. As I said yesterday, the Government does not want to see investment funds buying up family homes that could be bought by individual families for their own use. That is why we changed the law in 2021 in respect of new planning permissions. This particular development got planning permission in 2019 and therefore does not fall under the law we changed in 2021. That is why this particular case has arisen. We have also put a supertax, a stamp duty of 10%, on the bulk purchase of homes. I hear what Sinn Féin is saying, which is that it wants that rate to be increased to 17%. I believe the Social Democrats have proposed 100% while other parties in the Opposition have proposed an outright ban, so even the Opposition is not united on the solution to this issue. We know when it comes to planning permissions granted after 2021 that we have already resolved the issue. What arises is developments that got planning permission before 2021. If we are going to make any changes to stamp duty, we need to examine them carefully to make sure any increase would be effective and that it would not have any unintended consequences. The fact the Opposition is divided three or four ways on this shows it is not a simple matter. While others in the Opposition might vote with Sinn Féin tonight, they do not actually agree with it, which tells a story in itself.

I would like to check out the numbers the Deputy has mentioned if she would supply me with them. Quite frankly, it is a higher number than I would have expected, but it may be the case that some of those bulk purchases were for social housing, which is quite different, or that some of them were not family homes. We have made a distinction between apartments and houses and family homes. I would like to interrogate those figures if the Deputy would be good enough to supply them to me.

The Deputy said that not one red cent in tax is paid in tax. That is misinformation and is not correct. Tax is paid in the form of stamp duty when the properties are bulk purchased and, when dividends are paid out to shareholders, capital acquisitions tax applies. That was misinformation.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

For clarity, I was referring to rental income. Not a red cent is paid on that.

The Taoiseach

No, there is tax on the dividends.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The level at which these rents stand should be borne in mind. Our motion this evening calls for a rate of at least 17%. We are simply reiterating what we told the Government at the time, that anything less than 17% would fail to be an adequate disincentive to clip the wings of the vulture funds. We are repeating that. I see no reason for the Taoiseach not to support the motion if he is, as he says, concerned with stopping this practice. I do not have to provide the figures I have quoted to the Taoiseach. The CSO has published them. The Taoiseach is not familiar with these figures but I put it to him that he should be. When he studies them, he will find they affirm that one in ten homes sold in the year 2021 were snapped up by these funds, some in bulk purchases and others in numbers that fall beneath that threshold. This is a significant issue rather than a marginal one. You got it wrong in 2021. Do not get it wrong again, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I would genuinely like to see those figures and to have a few hours to interrogate them. The law was changed in 2021. If I remember correctly, it was changed in the course of the year, so what would be particularly interesting to see are the numbers for 2022 and 2023 because that is when the change would have had an effect.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I quoted them to you.

The Taoiseach

As I say, I would like to see them and interrogate them. To come back to what the Deputy said in respect of tax, companies and people are taxed differently. If you are an individual, such as a landlord, you pay income tax. Companies do not pay income tax. They never have. Companies pay corporation profit tax and when they issue a dividend to their shareholders, those shareholders pay capital acquisitions tax. That is how they are taxed. To say they do not pay a red cent in tax is misinformation.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

You are completely wrong. You are completely wrong in terms of the tax burden on companies. Companies pay tax on rental income; REITs do not. That is the point.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Everyone, regardless of where in Ireland they live or how much is in their pocket, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect when they are sick. Everyone deserves to have timely access to the medical treatments they need. I know the Taoiseach appreciates that, but his Government’s policies are hurting people in hospitals, not helping them. I am talking about the current HSE recruitment freeze, overcrowding, long waiting lists, the trolley crisis, a retention crisis and a lack of community supports for those discharged from hospital. The list goes on.

Every week, we all hear healthcare horror stories. We hear from patients detailing awful experiences in hospital emergency departments; working people worrying about healthcare access for older parents or younger children; people with complex medical needs who are afraid of getting sick if they go into hospital; and front-line medical workers who are exhausted and worn out, looking to greener pastures in Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere.

Yesterday, my Labour Party colleague in Limerick, Councillor Conor Sheehan, shared the recent awful experience of his grandfather, Gerry Mullins, at University Hospital Limerick. Last Thursday, on the advice of Mr. Mullins's GP, his family brought him to UHL emergency department to seek treatment for an ulcer in his leg. What followed his arrival offers a desperate insight into the reality of emergency healthcare in Ireland. Upon discovering that his ulcer had become septic, the overworked staff at UHL began to treat Councillor Sheehan's grandfather, who at that point had become extremely unwell. However, over the course of the emergency treatment while very unwell, he had to spend four days on a trolley. During that time, Conor Sheehan and his family witnessed frenetic scenes at UHL, with multiple vulnerable patients exhausted, agitated and having to wait on trolleys. The nursing and medical staff are chronically overworked and overburdened. The staff at UHL deserve so much more than to have to work under those conditions. Patients at UHL and their families deserve better, too. We know this is not an isolated case. I express my sympathies again to the family of 16-year-old Aoife Johnston, who died so tragically from meningitis at UHL in December 2022.

Conditions in our hospitals have major ramifications for health outcomes. The INMO tells us it takes just six hours on a trolley for a person’s long-term health outcomes to decline. There is no more give in the system. It falls to the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and their colleagues to address the crisis, with the INMO telling us that 1,552 people have been on trolleys in UHL alone since the beginning of January. Across the country, so many medical professionals are working through yet another winter in impossible and often dangerous environments. All that is achieved by miserly recruitment freezes is to put more pressure on services. Will the Taoiseach end the damaging recruitment freeze, address the trolley crisis and ensure our hospitals are safe? What will he do this winter to address the healthcare needs of the people of Limerick in the context of the ongoing crisis at UHL?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. At the outset, I want to acknowledge that there are far too many people in Ireland waiting far too long to see a specialist or get the operation they need, and that our emergency departments are very busy at the moment and that is putting staff under a lot of pressure. I am really sorry that Mr. Sheehan's grandfather had the experience that he did. It is not acceptable that should be the case.

It is important, though, to put on the record of the House that there has been phenomenal additional investment in health services under this Government. Since 2020, only four years ago, we have recruited 20,000 more staff, with 1,000 more consultants. We are now in the top five in terms of practising nurses per head of population in the OECD. That investment is making a difference. We see significant overcrowding in our hospitals this January but it is not as bad as we saw in previous years. That is, at least in part, down to the extra beds, extra doctors, extra nurses and extra staff. We saw last year that waiting times for patients fell. For two years in a row, we have seen waiting lists fall. They peaked after the pandemic, but have been falling since then. I believe this year will be the third year in a row in which we will see the number of people waiting more than ten to 12 weeks fall. That is a not insignificant achievement. North of the Border, across the water in the UK and in most developed countries in the world they are seeing waiting lists rising, yet for Ireland waiting lists have fallen for two years in a row and will fall this year for the third year in a row. That is down to the phenomenal work of the people who work in our health service and also the massive additional Government investment that has been put into the health service in the past three or four years.

With regard to the recruitment embargo, it is important to say what that actually means. What it actually means is that the HSE can hire an additional 2,000 staff this year. We have had a big increase in the number of staff in the HSE and it can hire an extra 2,000 staff this year. What we cannot have is what we have seen in the past, that is, the HSE getting approval for one group of staff but not hiring them and hiring a different group of staff instead. We have to put some decent control on this. The recruitment embargo, as it is described, actually means the HSE can hire 2,000 extra people this year, however. Of course, it does not apply to graduate nurses and midwives, for example, or to consultants or GPs.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Taoiseach for his words for Conor Sheehan. I absolutely agree with him regarding the immense hard work and commitment of medical staff throughout the country but he has given me a standard response on the recruitment freeze. The reality is that lifting the freeze for certain contracts and grades will fix nothing. It will not entice healthcare professionals back from Australia, Dubai or Britain. It is an indictment of the Government's healthcare policies that even now, even with the improvements listed by the Taoiseach, Conor Sheehan's family's story is not unique; it is replicated across the country. It is an indictment that we have come to accept that long waiting lists in hospitals are somehow normal. People go to hospital to get better. Hospitals should not be a place where conditions will worsen while people languish awaiting a bed. Our healthcare staff should be treated with respect and we should see the full recruitment freeze lifted across all grades, as our healthcare staff are seeking. We need to fix things. The Taoiseach has not addressed the issue relating to UHL. That is a particular stain on the healthcare system. I again ask the Taoiseach what he will do for the people of Limerick this winter.

The Taoiseach

Again, for the information of the House, we hired an extra - and I mean extra - 1,019 medical and dental staff last year. We hired an extra 2,100 nurses and midwives last year and an extra 929 health and social care professionals. Yes, there are lots of people coming and going - we have an international labour market when it comes to healthcare - but we are doing pretty well in terms of recruiting extra staff for the health service. The HSE will be allowed to hire an extra 2,000 staff overall over the course of this year. People describe that as a recruitment freeze. Having laid out the facts, people can decide for themselves whether that is an appropriate term to use.

With regard to Limerick, 150 extra beds have been added in the mid-west under this Government, most of them in Limerick. Another 96 are under construction and will come into commission in the new year. Also, a new private hospital is under construction, which will help in terms of the bigger picture, and there is investment in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's hospitals and community services to take the pressure off the main hospital in Dooradoyle. As we know from Waterford hospital, Connolly Hospital in my constituency, which is a great hospital, St. Vincent's Hospital and hospitals all over the country, it is not just about additional resources, staff and beds; you need good clinical leadership and sharp management too.

Deputy Gino Kenny

Tomorrow, the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use will publish its final report. It will be an historic day in the context of this issue. The assembly has made 30 recommendations calling for reform of our current drug policy. It has stated that drug use and misuse is a public health issue, rather than a criminal one. Overall, the sentiment is that the status quo of criminalisation does not work. This policy of criminalisation has been the State's default position for the past six decades. That has stigmatised, marginalised and criminalised not only individuals, but also communities throughout the country. We now have a better understanding of addiction and the reasons people fall into addictions, however. It is a complex issue but we have a more holistic approach to why it happens.

Factors such as poverty, disadvantage and deep trauma that goes on in people's lives mean people turn to drugs sometimes, alcohol sometimes. These are huge social determinants on this issue. Public opinion has shifted, particularly in the last number of years, and is changing course in relation to the position over the past six decades, as I stipulated. This has been reflected not only in the citizens' assembly but also at the justice committee, which had a very good report 14 months ago on a different course of action on drug use and funding communities.

I believe there is a generational chance to change the course taken over the past six decades. Ireland has one of the highest rates of overdose and drug-related deaths in Europe. In the North of Ireland there is an explosion of drug-related deaths. Something needs to happen. Other countries have done it differently, with safe consumption rooms and so forth. That needs to be done here as quickly as possible. The chairperson of the citizens' assembly stated that there is no time to waste. If it saves one life, one person, it is worth changing course regarding criminalising people. Will the Government take the recommendations of the citizens' assembly not just on policy but also on legislative change, which is key? The Misuse of Drugs Act has been in place since the 1970s, criminalising people, sending people through the criminal justice system and the courts, and jailing people. It does not work. Show me where it does work. Other jurisdictions have showed that we can change course, save lives and take people out of the criminal justice system.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for his interest and knowledge on this matter. It goes without saying that the greatest drug of use and misuse in this State is alcohol and it is legal. It is associated with public order offences, child abuse and violence against women. It is associated with acute disease and chronic disease. It makes mental health worse. It is associated with suicide, public order offences and major road traffic accidents, yet we would never consider criminalising alcohol in Ireland because we know it would not work. People would not obey the law and alcohol would be driven into the hands of a criminal industry. People would be killed by impure alcohol, as was the case during prohibition periods in Ireland. That is something we all need to be honest about.

In my view, drug use and misuse by individuals should be seen primarily as a public health issue and not a criminal justice matter. That is very different from drug dealing, for example, and the production of illegal medicines and drugs. I certainly think that blaming, shaming and criminalising people is not an effective policy and has largely been rejected by the public, particularly younger people. If it was the case that that approach, the war on drugs and "just say no" was a successful policy, it would have been successful 40 years ago. It has not worked. We all need to admit that. Certainly that is what the citizens' assembly admitted in its report.

In terms of where we go from here, I am going to have a chance to meet with Paul Reid tomorrow. He is going to present the report to me. I am keen to hear his reflections, not just what is written down in the report. He is going to meet with the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, as well, who has responsibility for this area. We will publish the report formally. It is important that we have an opportunity for the Oireachtas to consider it. That is the usual process for a citizens' assembly. We will set out the details as to how that can be done, most likely tomorrow after the meeting with Paul Reid.

Deputy Gino Kenny

One of the main elements of the report was not paying lip service to our approach but changing the legislation. The Taoiseach said criminalising people for possession of small amounts of drugs, no matter what the drugs are, is simply a waste of resources for the State. Whether people use drugs or not is irrelevant. The proliferation of drugs and availability of drugs is widespread. It is impossible. People in the law enforcement area have said that law enforcement alone simply cannot curtail the availability of drugs or the reasons people take drugs. A lot of people take drugs and never have a problem but there are people who will fall into addiction. Next week, in a test for the Government, People Before Profit is bringing forward a very simple Bill providing for cases where somebody has simple possession of cannabis on their person. We are asking you to have a look at the Bill, which is very short, to endorse it and to let it go to Committee Stage. This is the test. The days of lip service are over and the days of saving lives are here.

The Taoiseach

I used to be a sceptic of citizens' assemblies, but over the past five or ten years I have become a fan of them. They can be really effective. We do not always accept the recommendations, nor do we have to, but we always consider them. When you put in front of 100 citizens all of the evidence, all the experts and all the advice, sometimes they come up with very good recommendations. As I say, we do not always accept them although we often do. We are the Legislature. We are the ones who actually make the decisions in the end and that should never change. We will have to give careful consideration to any kind of legal change. That is our job. That is going to take a bit of work and a bit of advice. I have asked the Garda about this on a number of occasions and they say to me that they rarely prosecute people for possession. Where they do prosecute people for possession, it is because they suspect they have been doing more than possession - that they have been dealing, promoting or selling - but that is the charge they can get them on. There are complexities like that that we need to figure out. Tomorrow we will set out how we best think this report can be taken forward.

Deputy Marian Harkin

Taoiseach, last November I asked you as Taoiseach, as leader of our country, to lead what I hoped would be an open, honest, factual and respectful debate on immigration. So far this has not happened. In my view, until we treat our citizens as adults and trust them with all the facts - the nice stuff we want them to hear and the hard facts, the tough stuff that is difficult - people will get and have got some of their information elsewhere, and that is not always good.

Today I want to raise one issue with you: the difficult national conversation around single men who are seeking asylum and the specific situation whereby some communities have said they will welcome and integrate families but not groups of single men. The knee-jerk reaction is that this is unacceptable and racist, and that these are far-right tropes. I am asking for a little bit of reflection. Just two years ago, thousands of visceral statements from so many Irish women followed the horrific murder of Ashling Murphy. I still remember some of the comments from the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in this House:

Not all men but all women grow up knowing we are not safe. [...] Not all men but all women know the feeling that creeps up your back when you hear steps behind you and you have to check.

The Dáil was also told that "By simply existing, women's lives are at risk from men whom they know and men whom they do not know".

Taoiseach, we believed women two years ago when they made these statements about Irish men. Why do we not at least entertain those statements from women now when they speak about the idea of 30, 40, or 50 single asylum seekers arriving in their town or village, living three or four to a room with no family connections and nothing to do most of the time? Why do we not take on those concerns as genuine? Let me be crystal clear. There is no evidence - zero evidence, none, none, none - that they pose any greater threat than 80 Irish men, but many women have said to me and I believe them that they would say the same thing about 80 Irish men in the same circumstances. I am not saying there is no racism involved here. We all need to question ourselves, but this heightened concern is real. I am just asking you to listen, to engage and to believe.

I am asking you to have the debate, warts and all, and to manage this in a reasonable and rational way so that we can honour our commitments and bring communities with us.

The Taoiseach

I have to be honest - I am quite disappointed in the question the Deputy asked. I can see the faces of many people around this House, who I think agree with me. I think the killing and the death of Ashling Murphy was one of those events that really touched the nation. I remember it so well. I remember the outpouring of grief for that young woman who was killed in the way she was. I remember the anniversary only a few weeks ago. I really think that to connect that to a debate about international protection and migration is really wrong.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

It is really wrong. The evil person who killed poor Ashling Murphy was an EU citizen who had been in the country for the best part of ten years, working and paying taxes. That is how he acquired his rights to social welfare and other things. Sadly, he turned on that girl, for whatever reason he did, and killed her. To connect that to international protection and refugees coming to this country, whether they are genuine or not, is really wrong. Really, Deputy, do not bring our country down into that spiral. Please do not.

Deputy Marian Harkin

The Taoiseach is disappointed. I am disappointed that he did not engage. I am disappointed that he did not respond to the real concerns that I hear from people. This is dividing people. I will not be lectured. At the last public meeting that I attended, vile slurs were spoken against migrants and I was the only public representative who called them out. I can tell the Taoiseach that there were members of his own party at that meeting who shut their mouths, but I did not, because I will not listen to it. Equally, when members of my community express what they feel are genuine concerns, I will not close my ears. I expect this House, as the House that represents the people of Ireland, to take this on board. We cannot just have the one narrative. We cannot just have only one perspective. I said three times that there is no evidence - none - to suggest that migrants-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, we are way over time.

Deputy Marian Harkin

Yes, but the Taoiseach did not take his time. He did not feel it was important enough to respond to me.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. The Taoiseach to respond.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I feel that by his response-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, we are way over time.

The Taoiseach

Sadly, people from all sorts of backgrounds and of all sorts of genders, races, religions and colours commit crimes. To conflate crime and violence against women, in particular, with migration is profoundly wrong and profoundly dangerous.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I did not do that.

The Taoiseach

Yes, you did.

Deputy Marian Harkin

Do not misquote me.

The Taoiseach

Yes, you did, Deputy.

Deputy Marian Harkin

Three times I said there is no evidence.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, please.

The Taoiseach

In relation to-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, please let the Taoiseach respond.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I cannot be misquoted by the Taoiseach when I make a reasonable comment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, let the Taoiseach respond, uninterrupted.

The Taoiseach

In relation to the Deputy's remarks about me, I have engaged in this debate. I probably engage in it every other day in my constituency, in this House and in the media. Only a few weeks ago, I wrote a detailed article, published in the Sunday Independent, setting out what our immigration policy is and was, what the facts were and what they were not. I will keep doing that, but I need a bit of help. I need a bit of help from people in this House-----

Deputy Marian Harkin

I am trying to give it to you.

The Taoiseach

No, you are not. Sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.