Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 2024

Vol. 1048 No. 7

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Tens of thousands of people are now refusing to pay the TV licence. The licence, as the Minister knows, is €160 and people are voting with their feet in huge numbers. Is it any wonder? People are understandably angry. They feel they are being taken for a ride. The recent financial scandals at RTÉ, the latest chapter of which is the debacle of Toy Show The Musical, have rocked people's trust and confidence in the national broadcaster. The number of people refusing to pay has soared in the aftermath of these scandals. Sixty people per day face prosecution for non-payment. A staggering 13,000 people were summoned before the courts last year. There is a real crisis now and the danger is that funding for public service broadcasting drains away while the Government twiddles its thumbs.

As public support for the TV licence collapses, the Government is all over the place. The Government's position is a merry-go-round of contradictions and mixed messages that is driving people up the walls. The Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, says she is in favour of abolishing the licence and replacing it with Exchequer funding but the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, says the TV licence should remain a core part of RTÉ funding and suggests that Revenue might collect the fee. Meanwhile, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, says the licence should remain in place and that he is not in favour of replacing it with direct Exchequer funding. Only yesterday, the Taoiseach described the licence as "outdated" and said that it belongs to a different time. One can see why people's heads are spinning.

The Government has promised for years to come up with a new model to replace the TV licence and yet here it is, plodding along in a mist of confusion with a licence that does not now enjoy widespread public support. The public wants decisive action on this. For our part, Sinn Féin would abolish the TV licence and invest Exchequer funding into supporting public service media in Ireland to put them on a sustainable footing. This, of course, is in line with the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission Report, which has been sitting on the Government's desk for two years now. Such an approach would remove the unfair nature of the licence and remove the ridiculous idea that the State might chase thousands of people through the courts for non-payment of a licence that is on the verge of collapse. Caithfidh an Rialtas deireadh a chur leis an táille agus maoiniú díreach an Státchiste a chur ina áit chun todhchaí a chinntiú do chraoltóireacht seirbhíse poiblí.

Despite the damaging fiascoes of the past year, people understand the value and importance of public service broadcasting but they want the Government to be upfront about how it is going to be funded into the future. They want a modern funding model that works and delivers value for money. I invite the Minister to bring some clarity today. I put it to him that the Government should scrap the TV licence and replace it with direct Exchequer funding. That, in my view, is the best way to rebuild public trust and ensure a strong future for public service broadcasting in Ireland. What is the Minister's position on this?

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

My position is that we have to support public service broadcasting and a whole range of media organisations in this country because in a world full of disinformation, fake news and conspiracy theories, it is important to have accurate, balanced and fair reporting. The Government will absolutely deliver a new format of broadcasting support and funding for such broadcasting and not just for RTÉ. That has been delayed and was delayed because of the events of last summer and leading into the autumn when there was controversy over what happened in RTÉ. I do not to rehearse all the details. The various Oireachtas committees have done it in real depth and detail. That process will conclude in the coming weeks. There will be another report, initiated by RTÉ, tomorrow on the governance of severance payments. The two final reports on the governance issue that are due in February will allow us to come to a conclusion of that process and set out the future payments and supports for RTÉ, and, indeed, for other media organisations, through whichever mechanism, be that through direct Exchequer or household payments or whatever other arrangement we will decide upon. We will do that. Clarity can only come when the Government has made that decision.

Sinn Féin also must provide certain clarity on what the Deputy has said today. The first question to clarify is whether the Deputy is suggesting people should not pay the TV licence fee in the interim period. If she is suggesting that, it would be damaging and dangerous because we need to keep that funding coming through. I would prefer clarity, because the Deputy seemed to insinuate it would not be the case. It would be good to get clarity in that regard.

I would have to argue that in a world where media are increasingly under threat and are finding it increasingly difficult to find funding models, Sinn Féin's position of taking repeated legal actions against various media here-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

Ah, stop.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

-----is similarly, in my mind, having a significant impact on the independence and strength of Irish media.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, we will resolve the funding issue. It is appropriate in my mind to do so when the various immediate governance issues in RTÉ have been addressed and resolved. We have to do it in a way whereby we do provide significant funding. If it comes from the Exchequer, it is still being paid by the Irish people. That money will possibly have to come from some other budget, be it social welfare, disability or wherever else. There is not a magic money tree so we have to make sure money is well spent and that we raise the tax revenues to cover it. In the interim period, people should pay the licence fee because it provides a real service of value to the Irish people. It provides real strength to our democracy and our country. I will say, and I am keen to hear Sinn Féin to hear say, that people should pay the licence fee in the interim period because that money is well spent and serves us well. We will then address the longer-term issue in the coming months, before the summer period, in order that we set it on a course that is stable and continuous and delivers.

I am glad that in her closing comments, the Deputy said people respect the value of public service broadcasting because I believe they do. For all their flaws, and all of us in the political system have difficulties with various media organisations and from time to time differ about how they cover us, any fair assessment would say that through RTÉ and our other media organisations, particularly for current affairs, we are, by and large, well served by media that are independent, fair and not biased, and which do not deserve to be attacked by legal challenge or by other public commentary which does them down, too much of which I have heard from our political system.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I have heard some bluster in my time but that really was a bravura performance of absolute rubbish - sound and fury, signifying nothing. My God, it is remarkable how one person can talk so much and say so very little in response to a very straightforward question. Is the Government for the TV licence or not? I have stated our position, which is in line with the expert view of an expert commission. When it was published, the Government dismissed that view. We do not do that. We accept the commission's view. The correct answer is direct Exchequer funding.

Will it be the licence fee - yes or no?

Regarding paying our TV licence, I am happy to record that I have paid mine. I have made no suggestion that people not pay their TV licence. The Minister should save his homily for the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media, who equivocated on the matter. What I do wish to be clear on is that the State and this Government should not chase thousands of people through the courts for non-payment of the licence fee. It seems that only the ordinary Joe who has not paid his licence is the only one facing the wrath of anyone or being held accountable in the midst of all the scandal. Can I put my question again and can I get a direct answer? Will the Government abolish the TV licence - yes or no?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We will provide an alternative funding mechanism. I do not expect that it will be a continuation of the current licensing system. The exact details will have to be agreed with Government before I can give the Deputy a final answer on that. Can the Deputy give similar clarity? She is paying her licence. Would she encourage Sinn Féin supporters to also pay their licences?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Oh my God.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Well I think it is important because we do have a role in public life in standing up for raising taxation to pay for the services we need in this interim period. Deputy McDonald is correct in saying that when the initial report of the Future of Media Commission came out, there was concern in government among party leaders about a potential switch to just Exchequer-based funding. The main reason for that concern was fear that under a future government, there could be political interference that would fundamentally undermine the independence of Irish media. That was the concern and that was the reason for such concern.

Deputy Thomas Gould

You are afraid of Fianna Fáil-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Well there have been historic cases. If you look at the history of RTÉ and others, you can see that there were cases of improper and undue political interference. It is not rocket science to say that. I believe we can overcome that by putting in place secure mechanisms so that such political interference would not be successful but that is complicated and there are various other options. We will make that, but as a Government we stand up for an independent media that gives strength to our democracy, which RTÉ and other media organisations do at the moment, and we will fund them into the future to make sure they continue to do that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we all calm down a little please?

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The latest price increases by VHI Healthcare have exposed the ailing health of our national care system. VHI premiums will rise by an average of 7% from 1 March. That hike comes on top of two previous increases in March and October of last year. It means people who have private health insurance with VHI will have to front up anywhere from an additional €180 up to nearly €700 for just one year. Families may expect an increase of between €400 up to nearly €600 at a time when so many families are struggling with rising cost of living issues.

In a country with a well-functioning public health system, this might not be such a huge news story because in other countries, it might be a price increase affecting just a small minority of people but in this country, nearly 2.4 million people have health insurance policies. This is nearly half the population. The reality is that many others just cannot afford the cost of private healthcare. Compare our level of additional private health coverage to that of other OECD countries. In Portugal and New Zealand, a third of the population has additional voluntary health insurance while in Spain, that figure is much lower at just 15%. In Great Britain, where we so often hear complaints about a beleaguered NHS, only 22% of adults now have private healthcare of this type.

Access to affordable quality healthcare is not a luxury nor should it be. Decent care is not something that should be the preserve of those with deeper pockets. For far too long, there has been an over-reliance in Ireland on the private market to counter the failures of and fill the gaps in the public system so we see long waits and delays and heroic health workers working and doing their best in overcrowded settings. I raised the latter issue last week.

This affects more than just healthcare for people who are unwell. This week, my colleague Deputy Duncan Smith has been raising concerns about the privatisation of long-term residential care and home care. An ESRI report this month said 15 large private groups now control 38% of the almost 32,000 nursing home beds in the country. That same report says that the Government must better balance the profit incentives of private business with the needs of those receiving care. When will we finally see the Government make that necessary public investment in our healthcare systems? In particular, will the Government put an end to the dangerous recruitment embargo in the HSE? How will it address the projected deficit of 49,000 nurses by 2041, as reported by Sean Murray in today’s Irish Examiner? When will we see an end to the unfair low pay model in the community and voluntary sector, which is causing such problems in the delivery of homecare to those who need it most?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is a real concern for roughly half the population that will see an increase in their premiums depending on their provider. If the VHI increase of 7% is mirrored by others, it will be of real significance for those families. We must be careful to make sure we protect everyone's living and health as we manage that.

My understanding is that the main reason for this is a huge increase in demand, similar to many other areas in the healthcare system. One statistic jumped out at me. Attendance at emergency care by those over 75 since pre-Covid times has increased by something by like 23%. That is one example of a very significant increase in demand for healthcare. This is something we must manage by resourcing our healthcare system through the Sláintecare programme and investment in public health so that people are guaranteed a high level of health service.

Deputy Bacik and I would have a similar position on the left in terms of the benefit of public investment and public services, particularly public healthcare. I have a slight concern that if we on the left are forever talking down what our public health service actually delivers, that might sap public confidence in what is actually happening. The truth is that since 2000, we have employed, I think, an extra 26,000 people in the health service. This is not insignificant. The other truth is that the outcome is starting to be seen in significant improvements in our health service. I know it is never perfect. We can never be satisfied, particularly in the area of disability and some of the discrimination mentioned by the Deputy between those in the section 38 sector and those in the HSE. I accept that point but the Deputy should similarly accept basic facts. In the past ten to 15 years, our life expectancy as a country increased by five years. That is phenomenal. Each of us is living five years longer because of the quality of our health service among other things. That is the ultimate test and we are not failing. I read with interest an article by David McWilliams in The Irish Times at the weekend. It was a very good article and I agree with a lot of his commentary but was slightly worried about one thing I read. A particular risk for the left is if we are forever talking down our strengths as a country regarding what we do provide in our health system. If you are sick in this country, ask any doctor about where you want to be. You want to be in a public ward in our hospitals because for all its failings - warts and all - we have one of the best health systems in the world. We have massively increased spending and staffing. Over the past two years, waiting times have been falling. That is the reality and we on the left should celebrate that as well as being critical of where there are problems in the system.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Minister for his response, I think, but regardless of whether you are on the left or not in this country, what saps public confidence in our public healthcare system is lack of Government investment. I listened carefully to the Minister's commentary and it sounded to me as if he was observing rather than speaking as a member of the Government. As a member of Government presiding over what has been a good time for the public finances, why have we not seen the level of investment necessary to deliver on public healthcare? The roll-out of Sláintecare has been far too slow. The Minister mentioned that himself.

He did not respond to my three specific questions about necessary investment by Government to end the HSE's recruitment embargo. He did not address the projected shortfall of nurses we are seeing, which will cause serious shortfalls in the delivery of healthcare, or address the serious gap in pay for those in the community and voluntary sector who provide much-need home care and community care services - a topic Labour has raised consistently for many months. Our hospitals and acute settings cannot function without that investment by Government in community and voluntary care. I did not hear a response from the Minister to any of those three questions. Proper investment would restore faith and public trust in our healthcare system.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The spending has gone up under this Government. It is incredible. We are up to €22.8 billion this year.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

It is not enough.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

There is a €1.15 billion increase in current expenditure.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Why are they underspending?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Trust me, every Department, such as equality and children and heritage is looking for such funding. It is a demonstrable fact that the Department of Health has received a huge increase compared with other Departments. We have to spend on so many things. The Deputy can go down to specific examples such as the broadening of applications for the free medical card, the introduction of free IVF, the reduction of inpatient charges for people in public hospitals, free contraception and the reduction in the drug invoice charge-----

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

The recruitment embargoed nurses.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I could keep going on.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

But the recruitment-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, there is a recruitment ban because last November the numbers employed had exceeded what had been expected, and we had to pause to say, "Hold on a sec", as we had gone beyond-----

Deputy Ged Nash

A fictional budget.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

-----what was already an ambitious expansionary programme. The Deputies should look at the figures across the board we set out. The only story that can be told is massive expansion in spending, but what we are starting to see now-----

Deputy Mick Barry

There is a massive expansion in the Minister's peaking time.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

-----is a commensurate reduction in waiting times and improvements in health outcomes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Your time is up, Minister.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

That is why I come back to that point. People have the confidence that when we spend the money, we get a return.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

We are not seeing enough.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

Why are they not hiring home helps since last November?

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have a little order? We move now to Deputy Barry and Solidarity Before Profit. I apologise, People Before Profit-Solidarity.

Deputy Mick Barry

There is a water crisis in Cork city. The issue is dirty, discoloured water - brown and orange - coming from the taps. It is coming from the showers. It surges into washing machines and dishwashers. It does not effect every home but there is no question that it has affected many thousands of homes. Uisce Éireann statistics indicate that on nine separate weeks in the past 18 months, complaints from the public were more than ten times the number that would normally be expected. The problem began in earnest when Uisce Éireann gave a €40 million design-build-operate contract for the new Lee Road waterworks to a private, for-profit company. When the company's workers joined a new water main to the existing one and started pumping water through it, they discovered that the water was hard and needed to be softened. To rectify this, they added a chemical. I understand it was caustic soda. However, they added too much, and when the treated water reached the old water mains, it stripped everything away from the walls of the pipes. Some 54% of the city's water distribution network is cast iron with an average age of between 65 and 100. Decades of sediment were torn away. The dirt only had one place to go, which was into the water supply. The orange and brown water poured out of the taps, ruined washes, destroyed dishwashers and damaged washing machines. Uisce Éireann urged householders to let the water run clear, said the clear water was safe to drink and added that both the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and the HSE had confirmed this.

Householders want the water to be tested at source in their homes and not back in the treatment plant. I am not aware that this was ever done. Wanting greater certainty, many households began to buy bottled water costing €20 per week or €1,000 per year in a cost-of-living crisis. Where problems persisted, Uisce Éireann sent teams of water workers out to flush the local supply clear. While Uisce Éireann pays for ads to promote water conservation, it is flushing water by the ton load in Cork to correct a mistake of its own making. Meanwhile skilled water workers, who could be upgrading the system, spend one third of their working hours on a firefighting exercise. It is a fiasco. If it had gone on for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, it would be bad enough. However, it has gone on for 18 months without an end in sight. Privatisation has been a disaster.

I ask the Minister two questions. First, will he tell the householders who have had to suffer this situation that what has happened is completely and utterly unacceptable? Second, will he call on Uisce Éireann to put a plan in place to resolve this issue, communicate it to the people of Cork and outline a timeframe for the resolution of this problem?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We absolutely have to resolve that problem. The health of our people comes first and the first base load of that is having a healthy environment, clean water and all the other services we need. My understanding is that an EPA investigation file was opened in December 2023 and that has to be resolved. We have that independent assessment so that it is not left to Irish Water to assess what is appropriate or what will be done. We have regulatory systems to make sure we have a clean environment.

I will make a couple of points on the Deputy's commentary. We have not privatised Irish Water; it is the exact opposite. We have enshrined the constitutional imperative that water is a basic necessity and the existence of a right to water. That has not led us down the privatisation route like we have seen in the UK. Is it for appropriate for Irish Water to use contractors? Absolutely. I do not think the entire work has to be done within existing direct labour or other systems. I believe Irish Water is a highly capable organisation. From the left, I stand up for the State. The €1.53 billion we put into Irish Water every year is starting to deliver in the context of reducing the direct pumping of sewage. The key with water is that is connected to our housing issue. We need to provide water infrastructure so we can have development in Cork and elsewhere. I believe Irish Water is doing a good job. I do not have the full details but if, as the Deputy said, Irish Water made a mistake in whatever was in this regard, it has to acknowledge that. That would be something for the EPA to assess. That does not mean that Irish Water is not delivering for the Irish people; far from it. It is. If I have those details, I will certainly pass them on, and on behalf of the Government, I will encourage the EPA and Irish Water to rigorously pursue what happened to resolve the problem and make sure the people of Cork have clean water, which they deserve.

Deputy Mick Barry

The title of this session is Leaders' Questions not leaders not answering the questions. The Minister did not answer the Sinn Féin question. He did not answer the Labour Party question and he is not answering the simple questions I put to him. I will repeat them. Will he simply and clearly tell the Dáil and the people who have been directly affected by this that this situation is completely unacceptable? He did not answer that question. He must answer it now and say that it is completely unacceptable. Second, will he say that Uisce Éireann must now outline a plan - not firefighting or flushing - to resolve the problem, explain it clearly to the people of Cork and explain a timeframe for doing it? Those are my two simple requests.

On privatisation, yes, the Government did not privatise Uisce Éireann, but it is going with so many private contracts that it is heading towards de facto privatisation of our water system. The Minister knows that and that is the root of the problem. Will he please answer the questions I asked him?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I absolutely answer the questions, "Yes", on both counts. Irish Water has to resolve this issue and be fully transparent about what has happened in this instance. It has to resolve it and be open, honest and upfront with the people of Cork as to why they are seeing discoloured water coming out of their taps. There is no difference between us on that. I agree 100%. All the regulatory authorities have to make sure that is done in a proper, legal and swift manner. The Government commits to supporting that process. I do not agree about Irish Water being a privatised organisation.

Deputy Mick Barry

Completely unacceptable.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is funded by the State.

Deputy Mick Barry

He will not use the words "completely unacceptable".

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is totally unacceptable if cloudy water is coming through someone's tap. We have to deliver to the highest standards particularly water so that people have confidence in the basic services. People should never have to buy bottled water in any part of the country. That requires an investment of €1.5 billion from the taxpayer, the same taxpayer who has to fund housing, the health service and the same taxpayer who may have to fund our broadcasting system. It is a real challenge to meet all these different needs but absolutely Irish Water must do that on our behalf. I believe it can and will do so.

Deputy Cathal Berry

Most people in the country are very much on board with the principle of the energy transition with the promise of cleaner, greener and cheaper electricity. To be fair there has been a lot of progress from a cleaner and greener point of view but there has been no progress at all from a cheaper perspective. Much research suggests that Ireland has the most expensive electricity in the European Union. I would be grateful for the Minister's thoughts and his assessment on that. Is it correct to say that Ireland has the most expensive electricity of the EU 27 countries? That is the first question.

Second, I was concerned by the testimony of the EirGrid CEO, Mark Foley, before the Oireachtas committee yesterday. He said he cannot get companies to build the new power plants that we need from an energy security point of view. That is a big issue from a security perspective.

Third and perhaps most concerning of all, there is a perception out there - I would argue a reality - that big energy companies are profiteering on the backs of ordinary people. I think that is a very dangerous narrative because it erodes a sense of fairness in the country and it undermines the covenant that should exist between the State and her people. On those three bases alone, I welcome the number of rooftop solar panels around the country at the moment. It is unrecognisable from four years ago before this Dáil convened and is making a big difference because it is addressing those three concerns - the cost, the energy security and-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I did not quite hear the Deputy's third question properly.

Deputy Cathal Berry

It relates to the perception of whether the large energy companies are dusting down the ordinary people. Those are the three things - the cost, the energy security and whether we can cut out this middle guy, whether we can provide more solar panels for people and literally give power to people.

I want to focus on two programmes in particular. The first is the schools solar panel programme. It is an excellent programme in principle. Many schools applied for free solar panels a couple of months ago when it was announced. Where are we with that? Will there be a further roll-out for the rest of the year or next year? Will every school get some or is just a pilot programme?

Last, ambition is very important when it comes to climate action. Would the Minister consider establishing another scheme for clubs around the country? The rooftops of club houses, pavilions and sports halls are ideal for solar panels in many instances. Would the Minister consider launching a new scheme that deals specifically with clubs? I know we have sports capital grants but we need a specific one for climate action.

In summary, is it true that Ireland has the most expensive electricity in the European Union? Where are we with the solar panels for schools programme? Would the Minister consider having a new discrete programme for sports clubs?

An Ceann Comhairle

I think there is a problem with the sound up there. We might see if we can do something about that. Maybe it is just the Deputy's dulcet tones; I do not know.

Deputy Cathal Berry

Maybe it is just me.

Deputy Noel Grealish

He is too tall.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Our energy prices are high in the European context but not the highest. There are two main reasons for that. One, particularly in recent years, has been our reliance on imported fossil fuel gas. That has been the main reason for us having very high prices compared with other countries.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

And then you closed down Bord na Móna.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We are switching away from that. We are switching to renewables which will give us a stable, reliable lower cost option keeping money in the country rather than going to Russia, Iran or other countries where we import the gas from at the moment. The second main reason it is expensive is because we have a very distributed housing system and we have to get a power line to every single home. I did not hear Mark Foley at the Oireachtas committee, but I will go back and listen to him. Getting new power plants has been a difficulty and that is why we as a House intervened. We voted through legislation to put in emergency generation. I am glad to say the first set of that last year was fired up in the North Wall and is providing backup to run our system. The second sets in Shannonbridge and Tarbert will be opened up in the coming months. We had to intervene, but I believe the market is still the best way for us to deliver power generation assets. We will continue to use the competitive market system that promotes investment in the renewable, cleaner alternative.

Large companies have made significant profits through the high-price period because of the war in Ukraine. That is why we introduced very significant supernormal taxes on them, windfall taxes. ESB, for example, has been particularly profitable. It is not all from the Irish market. It is very significantly profitable from the UK as well which allows us to maintain investment here as well as there in a way that serves the Irish people. We have to be careful when we look at some of the headline figures as to where the profit is really coming from where it is going.

The Deputy is absolutely right that the solar panels programme for schools is part of our transformation. Last year we had 30 times more solar power by the end of the year than we had at the start. In one year, we put up 1 GW of solar which is spectacular growth in solar power. It is happening in so many different areas in so many ways. Schools is one of them. It is an important one as a signal, as a symbol and as a learning, as well as helping to reduce school costs. It is a 100% grant. We have started with the first nine counties, but every single country will be included and every school is eligible. For the first nine counties when we put out applications in the autumn, 1,600 schools were eligible,1,400 replied and 1,200 went into the tendering process. They are starting to be built out. Every school in the country will be able to have it.

The Deputy asked about sports clubs. Some 70 sports clubs have already availed of the non-domestic support scheme for solar - up to €160,000 and they are already getting it built. This summer 200 schools will install EV charging points on a separate Department of Transport scheme because sports clubs form a huge part of our community. So "Yes" is the answer to the Deputy's question. Solar on both, along with EV charging, is going in as part of this change to our own domestic renewable power supply.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I thank the Minister for his response. It is encouraging to hear about the schools programme in particular. It is good that roll-out is taking place. I just want to revisit the cost of electricity. The Minister acknowledged that we have an inordinately high cost of electricity here in this country. I emphasise that permeates every aspect of the economy and society, from the cost of a coffee, to a pint of milk and to a loaf of bread. We need to put more downward pressure on the cost of electricity. I would be interested to hear his thoughts on the interconnection and the plans for the next couple of years - the interconnectors to the UK and France. Will that lower the cost of electricity for the ordinary consumer and citizen in this country?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I believe it will. We can see what happened last year. We have two interconnectors at the moment, one in north Dublin, which comes ashore at Rush and goes across to Wales, and the other in the North which crosses over to Scotland. We are building a new one from Wales coming into Wexford at Great Island. We are also building one from Breast in Brittany in France which will come in near Carrigtwohill and into the Cork network. They are transformative. First, they are transformative in reducing emissions. We do not have the final figures for last year but we will get them shortly, but there was a dramatic reduction in emissions from the power sector in Ireland in part because when the wind was not blowing here, we were drawing power in from the UK in a way that allowed us to meet our needs and also reduce our emissions. We will be able to do that with France and the UK.

We will not stop there. We should go further with another connection with UK and another one with France. I want to go down to Spain and connect with Spain so we can connect Spanish solar with Irish wind. That balancing capability is the new industrial revolution that is taking hold. It is a renewable, low-carbon, electrify-everything future and we will be good in this country. We are already leading in this country in that revolution. It provides nothing but benefit for our people in my mind.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and all those who participated in Leaders' Questions today.