Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Feb 2024

Vol. 1049 No. 4

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The long-running debacle surrounding the construction and, more importantly, the completion of the national children's hospital rumbles on. This afternoon we learned that the staggering cost of the hospital has increased again by almost €500 million. This pushes the current cost up to €2.2 billion, a cost that is frankly unbelievable. What is even more outrageous is that we can have no confidence that this will in fact be the final cost. Last week in the Oireachtas health committee the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, stated he could not say with certainty that the completion date of October of this year would be met. He repeated this on radio today. Incredibly he also admitted that he had yet to hold a formal meeting with the board overseeing the project this year. When a Minister is taking such a hands-off approach, it is little wonder we have spiralling and out-of-control costs, constantly shifting timelines and a complete lack of confidence in delivery.

This debacle shows that the entire leadership of the Government is asleep at the wheel. As this fiasco goes from bad to worse, children are waiting longer than ever for care. Eight out of ten children are waiting longer than the Sláintecare target for an orthopaedic appointment. Parents of children with scoliosis and spina bifida are at their wits' end as their children wait in agony for life-changing and lifesaving treatment. The promise that Simon Harris made in 2017 that no child would wait any longer than four months for their procedure rings as hollow as the Taoiseach's own promise that short of an asteroid hitting the planet, this hospital would be built and complete by 2020. It is now 2024 and the hospital has gone from the €700 million when the Taoiseach made those comments to at least €2.2 billion and the only asteroid to hit us is the mind-boggling financial cost to the taxpayer and the endless disappointment of children and parents.

This strikes at the heart of the Government's credibility, a government that cannot keep people safe cannot put a roof over people's heads and cannot build a hospital without turning it into a farce. Every Member of the Dáil, every citizen and, more importantly, every child and their parents want the hospital built, open and treating children as quickly as possible but public confidence is now on the floor. The hospital is not complete, the doors are not open and children are not being treated. Despite the billions being spent we do not have a date we can have confidence in for when the hospital will be up and running. Tá an praiseach a bhaineann le hospidéal náisiúnta na bpáistí ag dul in olcas le costas a mhéadú le €500 milliún eile. Caithfidh an Rialtas a rá le páistí agus le tuismitheoirí cathain a bheidh an t-ospidéal críochnaithe agus oscailte.

I have very straightforward questions for the Taoiseach and I believe the children and parents waiting for years for this hospital to open deserve straight answers. When will the national children's hospital be completed, open and treating children? Can the Taoiseach tell us today with certainty what the full and final cost will be?

The Taoiseach

The new national children's hospital will be completed later this year and will be open and treating children next year. When it is open, it will be an incredible state-of-the-art hospital. It will care for our children for the next 50 to 100 years and it will be comparable if not superior to many of the best children's hospitals in Europe and around the world.

It will be our first digital public hospital, with 300 individual rooms for every child that needs to be admitted and space for their parents to sleep in the room beside them. It will have more theatres, more scanners and facilities we could not even imagine now, compared with what we have at the moment. I look forward to the hospital opening next year and seeing patients being treated there for the first time.

The Cabinet today agreed to increase the maximum allocation for the hospital to €1.9 billion capital, that is, for the build, and €0.3 billion current, that is, for the commissioning, decommissioning and transition to the new hospital, which will happen next year. The total cost will be €2.2 billion, of which €1.4 billion has already been drawn down. The project has taken much longer than anyone anticipated and there will be years of dispute with the contractor about payments even when the hospital is fully open. This will not impact on other projects because the cost of this is spread out over ten to 15 years. We expect handover to occur this year and expect it to be open to patients next year.

It is important when we talk about the entire cost of this project that we do not make the mistake of thinking it is just about building the very large building which we can now all see in Dublin 8 next to St. James's Hospital. It is also the satellite centre in Connolly in Blanchardstown open and treating patients and the satellite centre in Tallaght. It also involves some of the costs associated with the original Mater project and Crumlin and Temple St. hospitals have to be decommissioned too, so it is a huge project across five sites.

On the Deputy's earlier remark, waiting lists in Irish hospitals are going down. We have said that nobody should wait more than ten to 12 weeks to see a consultant if he or she needs to or to get an operation if he or she needs it. While I accept they are still too long, unlike most countries in the world, including the jurisdiction north of the Border, waiting lists in Ireland have fallen for the last two years in a row.

In paediatric spinal surgery, the waiting list has fallen in the past year. While that is not by close to enough, it is important that I correct misinformation because it is the norm in the Deputy's contributions here on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In the spirit of accuracy, the Taoiseach should reflect the fact that waiting lists for children have not fallen and more children with scoliosis and spina bifida are waiting now than there were four years ago. That is the accurate fact of the matter.

The Taoiseach says the hospital will be completed this year. When? He says it will be operational next year. When? The Minister was far less assured in his commentary today. He caveated every statement with a maybe, a perhaps and a reliance on delivery by the construction developer. Can the Taoiseach give us dates and timelines? When will it be finished? When will it be open? Is he saying €2.2 billion is the final and full cost but has caveated that with speculation around years of disputes in the courts. That strikes me as a very unsure and unsatisfactory answer. When he gets to his feet again, will the Taoiseach give us the month in which the hospital building will be finished, when it will be fitted out, complete, open and operational? Will he give us an absolute assurance that €2.2 billion is the final cost, inclusive of any protracted processes through the courts?

The Taoiseach

The hospital will be open later this year. October is the target month. It will be open to patients in 2025. The sum of €2.2 billion is the maximum allocation made by the Government for this project; we will not be allocating any more. Some €1.4 billion has been drawn down already and an additional €0.8 billion is available to complete the project, commission it and open it to children. That will happen next year.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The death toll in Gaza has reached more than 30,000 people. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and under Israeli bombardment, its people have been brutally displaced and forced into ever more cramped and overcrowded spaces, most recently into Rafah. They are still being bombarded, even now in Rafah. We are witnessing Armageddon. There is nowhere left for a desperate civilian population to go in Gaza.

On 7 October, we saw the horrific Hamas attack on Israel and since 7 October, we have seen the loss of civilian life in Gaza on an unthinkable and unconscionable scale. In recent days, we heard the heartbreaking audio of the last hours of six-year-old Hind Rajab, pleading for help hours before she and her two rescuers were killed by Israeli fire, along with five members of her family.

Back in October, the Dáil voted to call for a ceasefire. In doing so, we were one of the first parliaments in the world to make that call but while making calls is important, it is taking action that counts. As long as Ireland delays taking further meaningful steps to put an end to the genocide in Gaza, our complicity in what is happening there is prolonged. There is so much more that the Government can and should be doing, and it would have the support of the Opposition in doing so.

For the Irish Independent today, Ellen Coyne writes that the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund has invested more than €4 million in companies based in illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. These illegal settlements represent the thin end of the wedge of the same policies of the Israeli Government, policies which have resulted in the slaughter of so many children in Gaza, children like Hind Rajab. These Israeli Government policies are breaching humanitarian law, displacing people from their homes and destroying families and communities. By enabling the subsidising of businesses in occupied territories, Ireland is complicit and we know that complicity does not chime with the values of people here in Ireland.

While I acknowledge the Taoiseach’s engagement on measures such as the recognition of Palestinian statehood, it is not good enough to say “Wait a little longer”. How long must people in Gaza wait? The death toll is mounting, starvation is setting in and disease is spreading there. We in Ireland must take further action. We must move on legislation to stop Ireland from subsidising genocide and to end trade with occupied territories in Palestine. The Government has said it would prefer to take action on these issues by non-legislative means but there are perfectly good Bills waiting to be passed. I have received a legal opinion which indicates that the occupied territories Bill, initiated by Senator Frances Black, is possible to pass under EU law, so let us do it. Let us move to pass the occupied territories Bill. Will the Taoiseach commit to doing so? At the next European Council meeting, will he press for the suspension of the EU-Israel trade association agreement? We need to do more than call for a ceasefire. There is a solid view on both sides of this House that we need to take action now. We are hearing from so many people across the country of their utter distress and horror at the genocide unfolding before our eyes. We cannot sit back and be complicit.

The Taoiseach

I share the Deputy’s distress and horror at the events that we are seeing unfold in Gaza. The ground assault on Rafah should not happen; 1.5 million people are taking refuge there, most of them already displaced from other parts of Gaza and some displaced on more than one occasion. There is a serious risk of a massacre occurring in Rafah if a ground assault were to occur, and that would be a gross violation of international law on top of all the other violations of international law for which Israel is responsible.

We were among the first countries in the world and among the first parliaments in the world to call for a ceasefire. That is correct. There is now a ceasefire proposal on the table, negotiated by Egypt, Qatar and the Americans. Both Hamas and Israel should accept that ceasefire offer, in my view. It will last for three months and will allow the hostages to be released, and they should be released, the killing to stop and aid to get in to Palestinian civilians. Then there is the possibility to build on that three-month ceasefire, make it permanent, enable the removal of the Hamas leadership and fighters from Gaza and, potentially, new elections in Israel.

In terms of the actions that we are taking, we have taken many actions. We have increased funding for the UN and UNRWA in Gaza and the West Bank when other countries have suspended their funding, incorrectly in my view. We have voiced our position and voted in support of the Palestinian people at the UN and the EU. We have called for the EU-Israel association agreement to be suspended, based on our view that Israel may be in violation of the human rights clause within that, and I spoke to the European Commission President on that only yesterday. It does, however, require unanimity at EU level to do so and as the Deputy is aware, there is not unanimity at EU level to do so.

In relation to the International Criminal Court, the Attorney General will be in the Hague on 22 February to make our case before that court in regard to Israel's ongoing occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

We will certainly review what the Deputy mentioned in relation to the ISIF and trade. Our advice from the Attorney General, the previous Attorney General and the Attorney General before that was that trade is very clearly an EU competence and is not in the competence of this Parliament to legislate for. We all need to be realistic. These are the actions we are taking and they are considerable, and we will take more. Recognition, alongside other countries, is one of the things we are working on at the moment and discussing with other countries and EU allies. It is clear to me, though, that Israel is not listening to any country in the world. I do not even think they are listening to the Americans any more. They have become blinded by rage and are going to make their own security situation much worse in the long term by going down the path they are going.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I certainly acknowledge that Ireland's response to the humanitarian disaster in Gaza has been strong - stronger than that of many other European countries - but it is still not strong enough. It was important that the Dáil and the Government called for a ceasefire and that the Taoiseach and his Government colleagues defended UNRWA when other countries were not doing so, and we acknowledge that from the Opposition. I am glad to hear the Taoiseach spoke yesterday with the President of the EU Commission on the EU-Israel trade agreement, but we need to do more. The Taoiseach has spoken previously in the House on working with like-minded EU member states on seeking to press further at EU level. What actions are ongoing? With which EU member states is the Government working? We understand Belgium may be one.

Now is the time for us to see further action being taken. The Taoiseach stated that Israel is not listening, but it will have to listen if enough countries in the West which currently support it withdraw their support. I am thinking in particular of the US and EU countries, with which Ireland has influence. It is possible for the Taoiseach and the Government to use their influence to a higher and stronger degree as otherwise, we are all complicit in sitting and watching an Armageddon unfold and children such as young Hind Rajab continuing to suffer and die under our watch and that of the world. We need to go further. There are actions we could take here at home, such as passing the occupied territories Bill, and there are actions the Government can take at EU level.

The Taoiseach

We have taken considerable actions to date and we will take more. As I stated, the Attorney General will represent Ireland at the International Criminal Court in The Hague on 22 February to make the case against the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. We are in discussions with other EU member states about recognising statehood and doing it in a meaningful way. Spain is the main country with which we are discussing that. It would not be fair of me to disclose the names of the other countries; it is for them to do so. Suffice to say that Belgium, which currently holds the Presidency, would not be in a position to do so while it holds the Presidency.

We need to be honest about the situation we see unfolding in the Middle East. We have taken action and we will even take more action but it is clear to me that the Israeli Government does not listen to us or the rest of the world. It probably does not even listen to the Americans any more. That is what makes the situation all the more dangerous and worrying. We need to be honest with people about that, too. I am concerned that there are people who shout at us and abuse us on the streets. Maybe they do not do it to the Deputy but they certainly do it to me and my colleagues. They believe there is some action we can take that will change Benjamin Netanyahu's mind. That is incorrect and I do not think people should spread that idea. It is irresponsible, actually.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is incomprehensible that a regime which has for four months inflicted a slaughter on the people of Gaza that has claimed the lives of close to 30,000 people, displaced almost 2 million people and brought an entire population to the brink of famine, and which is in the dock, indicted for genocide, the worst crime a state or human being can commit, is contemplating yet another massacre of people in Gaza, specifically those in Rafah, where more than 1 million are people cowering under tents and amid rubble and the bodies of the slaughtered and the maimed. The Israeli regime is planning to do it again. What kind of regime is capable of that atrocity?

What kind of regime thinks it could get away with a genocide in front of the world and, when it is indicted for genocide, wants to continue? The answer is a regime for which there are never any consequences, ever. Words of criticism, even the quite strong language used by the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and others today, mean nothing, as the Taoiseach rightly said, to Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. Ministers today in the Israeli Government are saying they want destroy Gaza, adding to the litany of incitements to genocide made by that government over the past four months. Why do they continue? Why do they think they can do it again? It is because there are never any consequences. The United States continues to give them arms and weapons, as do European states like Germany and Britain. The European Union gives Israel favoured trade status and nobody imposes any sanctions.

One of the things that this country can be most proud of is what the Dunnes Stores workers did in the mid-1980s when they went on strike for two years, forcing Ireland to become the first country in the world to impose comprehensive sanctions on apartheid South Africa, which began a domino effect that led to the dismantling of the apartheid regime. Guess who held out until the bitter end to defend that obnoxious regime? The United States and Britain, the same countries that are effectively giving licence to Israel to continue with its atrocities now. Be brave and do what this country did with apartheid South Africa in the mid-1980s, which helped to bring down that regime, admit that Israel is an apartheid state, an uncivilised state and a barbaric state and that it should have sanctions imposed on it to end the apartheid, end the occupation and end the possibility of the sort of genocidal slaughter we have seen for the past four months.

The Taoiseach

As I said earlier, there is a ceasefire proposal on the table negotiated by the Egyptians, Qataris and Americans. It is our strong view that Israel and Hamas should both accept that ceasefire proposal. It will allow the killing to stop. It will allow refugees, or at least some of them, to return to their homes and it will allow aid, which is desperately needed by Palestinian civilians, to get in. It will also facilitate the release of more than 100 Israeli hostages who have been held for more than three months now, against their will, by Hamas. If we can secure that three-month ceasefire, there is a real possibility of that becoming permanent. That will, of course, require the removal of the Hamas leadership and fighters from that territory.

I echo the comments of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, earlier today. I do not believe that you respond to a massacre with more massacres and I do not believe that you can defeat a monster by behaving like a monster yourself. We will continue to work with our partners in the EU and other parts of the world to do what we can do that we believe will be effective.

On trade sanctions, the Deputy will be aware that trade is an EU competence and has been since the Single European Act.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

None of the horror that has happened over the past four months would have happened if western governments, including the European Union and the United States, had not given impunity to Israel for years. Long before the current horrific escalation of violence, Israel was indicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity for its occupation, apartheid and ethnic cleansing, which has been going on for decades. The world did not sanction Israel. This Government refused to even use the word "apartheid" when it is blatantly an apartheid regime, it is blatant that the siege of Gaza was collective punishment of 2 million people and it is blatant that the Israeli Government is engaged in an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing. Impunity was granted and that has given Netanyahu and the crazed, bloodthirsty Ministers in his government, who are his lieutenants, the confidence to believe that they can continue with this massacre. We have to impose sanctions on this regime and admit it is not a normal state and it is an apartheid, colonial, brutal regime, and that if we want to see peace, as we do, it has to mean the end of that apartheid regime and there can be equality between Jews, Muslims, Christians and people of no religion who can share the land of Palestine as equals.

We would not accept anything less anywhere else. We did not accept it in South Africa. It has to be imposed by western governments.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

This Government cannot simply say: "Oh there's nothing we can do". Because that impunity is what has given Israel the licence to continue with this horror.

The Taoiseach

There are countries in the world that invade other countries, that engage in international terrorism - countries like Russia and Iran for example - and they do not need the sanction or tacit support of the west or western countries to do that. That is a position Deputy Boyd Barrett is entitled to hold, but it is not the case that there are not countries that are anti-west, that do not invade other countries and do not engage in international acts of terrorism. That is just a simple fact.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The west is arming Israel.

The Taoiseach

In relation to the single-state solution, I think that is naive. It is a really nice idea. It might be the kind of thing that Deputy Boyd Barrett and I would sign up to, being secular people, but it is very evident to me that the people of Israel do not want a single-state solution, they want a Jewish state, and most Palestinians, many of whom voted for Hamas in the last election, want an Islamic state. That is the reality of it.

I heard what the Deputy said - that the West should impose it on them - but is that not exactly why we so many problems in the world, because the west tried to impose its solutions on other parts of the world, whether it was partition or imposing systems of government that people do not want? It is a funny form of imperialism that the Deputy is actually advocating himself, that the west should impose on people in Israel and Palestine a system or a statehood that they do not want.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am saying we should end apartheid.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I wish to highlight again the fact that the Government is not properly controlling immigration at Dublin Airport, and at all other entry points, which has grave negative consequences. Arriving at an Irish entry point without documentation breaks the law, and no one is being prosecuted. The Government is misleading the public by praising the benefits of immigration while allowing people without proper ID into the country through a flawed system. This intentional confusion aims to silence criticism.

While we all support genuine asylum seekers fleeing persecution, the Government's approach makes it hard to distinguish between genuine cases and those exploiting the system. Many asylum seekers are economic migrants, not fleeing in fear of their lives, leading to what is called asylum tourism. Despite being deemed a safe country, the likes of Georgia is sending many asylum seekers to Ireland. The lack of a robust verification process poses a threat to safety and compromises the integrity of the asylum process. The Government claims that all asylum seekers are fingerprinted and checked for criminal records but this is patently untrue and misleading.

Some 13,521 people seeking asylum have been allowed into Dublin Airport since 2018 without a shred of ID or any documentation. This figure has been confirmed by the Minister for Justice in a reply to a parliamentary question from me recently. This is a very serious matter, yet there is no investigation, consequence or prosecution. Allowing unidentified individuals to arrive here without consequences for destroying their travel ID not only results in exploitation of Irish resources, which are entirely funded by the taxpayer, but also undermines social cohesion. Despite the consequences, this issue is getting worse not better. The numbers arriving at Dublin Airport without any form of ID, despite needing it to board the aircraft on which they arrive here, is skyrocketing under the Government.

The figures paint a concerning picture of lax immigration controls and serious security risks. For example, in 2018 some 895 individuals arrived without any shred of ID. The numbers continued to rise in 2019, with 1,579 undocumented arrivals. Even during the challenging times in 2020 when travel was significantly reduced due to the pandemic, 712 individuals arrived with no proper documentation. That is only through Dublin Airport. In 2021, despite ongoing restrictions 2,082 individuals arrived without travel ID. In 2022 a staggering 4,968 undocumented arrivals were allowed in here that year. Last year, there were 3,285. What is going on? These incidents are not being followed up. The figures highlight that since the Government came to office, 11,047 individuals arrived at Dublin Airport without a shred of ID.

That is only Dublin Airport, as I said. The Taoiseach can make all the statements he likes but this is a simple fact. These individuals are being absorbed into the IPAS system. Some may have criminal records - they do because they broke the law by coming in illegally. It is just as if they did nothing wrong.

The Taoiseach

As I said before and will continue to say, migration is a very sensitive issue and is abused by politicians all over the world to gain votes. Often, that is based on misinformation and hate-mongering. I will say it again - migration, in the round, has been a very good thing for Ireland. If it was not for migrants coming here to work in our health service, build our houses and look after our older people, we would not be able to provide the kind of services we provide now. Far from being the cause of our problems, migration is part of the solution to many of them, particularly when it comes to building new homes and running our health and social care services. The major companies that invest in Ireland and pay billions in tax, which allows us to run our schools, hospitals and pension system, would not be here were it not for the fact that they can attract skilled labour from all over the world. Our buses would not run, our restaurants would not operate and our shops would not be open. I will say that again and again any time anyone raises the issue of migration in this Chamber because it is important that we always acknowledge that at the start of any contribution. I hope other Members, including Opposition Members, will at least do that too.

The number of people coming through Dublin Airport without documents has fallen. We have stepped up our activities in that regard.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Ask the Minister.

Deputy Helen McEntee

It is about 34%.

The Taoiseach

There are now gardaí in airports in other parts of Europe working with authorities there. We increasingly check people coming off planes, not just at border control. We are liaising with airlines to make sure their staff are properly trained. There are fines which we impose on airlines if they allow people onto aircraft undocumented. We are seeing a reduction in the number of people coming through Dublin Airport undocumented. We estimate, and believe based on evidence, that the majority of people who seek international protection in Ireland come across the Border from north to south. I do not think anyone is suggesting we close the Border between the North and South. Of course, they go in the other direction too. That is the reality of the situation.

The Deputy said two things that require at least a degree of correction and explanation. Some 40% of people who apply for international protection get it. That is not far off half. We need to bear in mind when people see a group of migrants coming into the country that roughly half of them are determined by our system as deserving of international protection. It is not a small minority; it is 40%, which is not far off half. That is why we need to make sure we assess everybody's application fairly. If somebody comes to an airport without documents, they are sent back. However, if they apply for international protection, in that scenario, they are allowed to have their application heard fairly. Unless the Deputy is suggesting that we leave the UN and exempt ourselves from international law and become some of a hermit kingdom, that will continue to be the case. That is just not common sense.

It is not always the case that people destroy their documents. We do not find destroyed documents in bins or bathrooms. What happens is that they are trafficked into the country and the person who trafficked them takes the IDs off them at a certain point, probably while they are still on the plane. We are doing everything we can to crack down on trafficking. That is why it is so important that we are part of the EU asylum pact because we can only do that on a multilateral basis.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I would be delighted if the Taoiseach answered my question but he answered a totally different question. The figures I quoted were by the person sitting two seats away from him - the Minister for Justice - only last week, yet the Taoiseach said the figures are dropping. In 2021, despite ongoing restrictions, 2,082 individuals arrived without travel ID in Dublin Airport. In 2022, 4,968 undocumented arrivals were allowed in and last year, 3,285 were allowed in. Are the figures quoted by the Minister for Justice dropping? The Taoiseach spoke about misinformation and disinformation. He should get a gold medal for disseminating disinformation, untruths and downright lies. We are not talking about anyone coming in through normal migration and people who applied through the system, which we all welcome. We are talking about people who have broken the law coming through Dublin Airport. That is only Dublin Airport; it does not include the ports. The Taoiseach has the audacity to try to demonise anyone who asks. The public is waiting for him. They see through his lies and untruths. The figures I quoted are from the Minister for Justice. They are not my figures or figures from any paper or anybody else but the Minister for Justice's figures.

Can we trust these figures at all? The Taoiseach stands up and says that the figures are all wrong and they are dropping, just as he says about the numbers on hospital trolleys and waiting lists. Will he get real? Will somebody pinch him so that he will wake up to the facts as to what is going on in the country? It is a naked blackguarding of our system. People are coming through without a shred of documentary evidence, which is a crime. We are prosecuting people for not having television licences or no flashlamps on their bikes and God knows, but people can just walk in here. Some are trafficked, which is horrific, but I believe the number is very few. Our country is just a sieve for them. It is a joke.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to accuse the Taoiseach, any member of Government or any other colleague of lying in the House.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The figures are there. They came from the Taoiseach's Minister and he should ask her about them.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy was in full flow and speaking very quickly so I may have misunderstood him but I think I heard him say that the numbers were 4,000 in 2022 and 3,000 in 2023. That is a drop. Moving from 4,000 to 3,000 is a drop.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about the other years?

The Taoiseach

I have explained to the Deputy exactly why that drop has occurred.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am talking about the overall numbers.

The Taoiseach

It is because of actions taken by the Government. If somebody enters the country through Dublin Airport without documents, one of two things happens. Either they get sent back, and that happens all the time, or alternatively, if they apply for international protection, they are entitled to have that application assessed properly and as quickly as we can. That is what we do. It is not correct to make the automatic assumption that if somebody enters the county in an undocumented manner he or she has committed a crime.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It breaks the law.

The Taoiseach

Many of these people, perhaps even most of them, are trafficked. That is the truth.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Is it a crime or does it break the law to come in with no documentation?

The Taoiseach

We do not find bins full of destroyed passports or documents and we do not find them flushed down toilets. Most of these people, Deputy, are trafficked. They have been subject to a crime themselves and the Deputy should admit that.