Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2024

Vol. 1049 No. 5

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Planning Issues

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The Minister of State will no doubt be aware, more than anybody, about the inordinate delays that are taking place in An Bord Pleanála at the moment where, within 18 weeks, the board undertakes through legislation to give answers to people. Sadly, there are flaws in the procedures there. I know there are staffing issues but the procedures are non-strategic and, I must say, well beyond the definition of mediocrity with regard to public service in the face of the greatest housing and accommodation crisis the State has ever had.

We need a strategic approach. I will give one example of a housing application in Sligo, which is for one three-bedroom detached house. It is on half of a site that currently has full planning permission for two semi-detached houses. It is on zoned serviced land, and would be deemed an infill site within an existing estate. The same objector who objected to the original planning permission appealed it to An Bord Pleanála with the same case, view and reasons, yet that appeal was lodged as far back as June 2023 and we were expecting An Bord Pleanála to have an answer in October. No answer came in October. It then said it would have one on 17 January - dated that day so it came to the client a couple of days later. They got a letter saying that no, it would not have it today. The board stated it did not actually know when it would have it, such is the extent of the problems there.

I will give another example, which is case No. 318241 in County Louth. That appeal was lodged was appealed on 13 October 2023 and the decision was given on 1 February 2024. In other words, that one went in after the one that I referred to, and had its decision within three and a half months. The most recent correspondence this particular case has had told them that while it does not know when, most cases are taking about 12 months.

In a week when we had the Minister for higher education quite rightly pointing out that we need all our builders to return, what we have is an overly robust and prohibitive application of processes within An Bord Pleanála that do not match the crisis we are in. As the Minister of State will know, he has powers under sections 28 to 31 that can alleviate some of these difficulties, and he quite rightly did the same in 2022 in order that we could help with regard to the Ukrainian crisis by refurbishing buildings and erecting modular homes. It is now time because it is an emergency and because the situation demands that under the measures in the Act, which are afforded to the Minister of State, we need to adopt some extreme approaches such as that where there are a limited number of units on existing zoned and fully-serviced land, they are deemed to have planning. This has been done in the past. It can be done again. It takes political guts to do it, I will tell the Minister of State that.

However, the current situation is laughable in the extreme. While there are limitations on ministerial influence with regard to an individual case - and I would not dream of asking any Minister to interfere in an individual case - clearly there is some level of selectiveness within An Bord Pleanála, when you take the case I have outlined to the Minister of State having a decision months before a single, three-bedroom detached house on zoned and serviced land.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

At the outset, I will explain that An Bord Pleanála is independent in the performance of its functions under the planning Act, and the role of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage with regard to the planning system is primarily to provide a policy and legislative framework under which the planning authorities, namely, the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, and An Bord Pleanála perform their statutory planning functions.

The Irish planning system is an open process and encourages participation. The Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, upholds obligations as required under international law with regard to environmental assessment and public involvement such as third-party appeals. The open nature of the planning system means that all appeals submitted in a valid manner must be considered by the relevant planning authority, regardless of the supposed frivolousness of the appeal. Provision for the handling and consideration of appeals, where considered vexatious, is currently legislated for under section 138 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, under which An Bord Pleanála has powers to dismiss appeals where there is an opinion that it is frivolous or vexatious or has been made with the sole intention of delaying the development for the intention of securing money, gifts or other inducements. These provisions are replicated in section 105 of the now-published Planning and Development Bill 2023, which is currently making its way through the Oireachtas. We were in committee with that yesterday and will be again today.

The Bill provides for the introduction of statutory and mandatory timelines for all consent processes, including appeals and consent applications made to An Bord Pleanála.

Timelines for the board will be introduced on a phased basis starting with those for strategic infrastructure developments, including energy and transport projects. The Bill also outlines the proposed new structure for the board. The new Bill contains a number of provisions reflecting this new organisational structure and will clearly outline the separate roles of the planning commissioners who will be responsible for all decision-making regarding appeals and applications made. They will be overseen by a newly created position of chief planning commissioner. The governing board, which will be responsible for the governance and organisation – the corporate spine which will provide support to all the organisations and functions - will be overseen by a chief executive officer.

It is important for An Bord Pleanála to be sufficiently resourced to carry out its statutory functions. Since October 2021 my Department has agreed to 117 new staffing positions, 93 of which have been within the past 12 months, in the board. The board received approval and sanction from my Department for a total of 313 posts to date as of 31 December 2023. There are 254 people, including board members, working in An Bord Pleanála, more than any time previously.

More board members have been appointed than at any time previously. The total number of board members serving in An Bord Pleanála is now 15, the maximum now provided for under the legislation. Later this month, a full term chairperson, who will become the chief executive designate, was appointed by the Government, and the recruitment process for the appointment of full term board members is ongoing and is due to be completed in the first quarter of 2024.

With the increase in the number of board members and in conjunction with the significant increase in resourcing and the filling of these posts in a timely manner, An Bord Pleanála is working to address the backlog of cases that are currently awaiting a decision as quickly as possible.

An Bord Pleanála has advised cases disposed of by the board for the full year of 2023 was 3,271 cases, which is an increase of 55% from cases disposed by the year end of 2022. It is noted that the avenge number of cases disposed per month in 2022 was 176 while in 2023, the average was 273 cases. The board has also advised that it is now running simultaneous board meetings, and given that 15 board members are appointed, it is expecting to hold board meetings in both the morning and evening to progress decision-making on cases.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

It is not personal but the parrot-like responses that have been prepared for junior ministers to come into the House are totally unacceptable. I have been in the Oireachtas for 22 years. I know what An Bord Pleanála does. The Minister of State started by talking of its independence and then he spoke better than any communications company procured by that company. He did not listen to anything I said about the tangible issues that are going on day to day with An Bord Pleanála’s strategic operation. It is not fit for purpose. It is paralysing the State. This is the objection that it has already adjudicated on, namely, that this proposed development is at the end of a cul-de-sac and there might be a difficulty turning cars. It has already adjudicated on this. To send an inspector to a nimbyistic objector like this is the biggest waste of state resources ever. The Minister of State has just described another layer of commissioners and CEOs and officers and inspectors and administrators so the administrative merry-go-round and waste of public money can be exacerbated while we make more people homeless and load people in through the ports and airports. It is about time for an element of common sense. The Minister of State said the Government is independent of this. The Government is to govern. People need housing. I have given the Minister of State tangible examples of why the system is not working and why a desktop exercise on this appeal alone could decide that it is absolutely nimbyistic and vexatious and that as the board has been at this site previously, there is no need to go back for the same issue. I gave the Minister of State the planning number for the case which went in months after the one I referred to in which there has been a decision already. While I know it is not a Minister because that would be illegal, somebody in An Bord Pleanála is obviously selecting. He or she is saying, if you like, that he or she will do the Minister of State's application now and will leave MacSharry until last. I should have a more wholesome response based on the Minister of State’s own common sense, rather than rhyming off this parrot-like response, which was probably prepared in An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

l am not going to comment on specific cases and nor do think that is appropriate

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I did not ask the Minister of State to.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Nor do I think it is appropriate to bring specific case numbers into the House.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I did not ask you to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, please.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I do not think it is appropriate.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The Minister of State does not set Standing Orders.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

As I outlined in my opening statement, a root and branch reform of our planning system is under way through the new Planning and Development Bill and the provision of significant additional resources to and reform of An Bord Pleanála, which I think has been welcomed by everyone in this House. The statistics speak for themselves with the numbers of case files being heard and deliberated upon. That is absolutely vital and essential given where we with the development of the country because these decisions have to be made in a robust way that is fair and balanced, taking into account all environmental considerations as well. That is hugely important.

I would appreciate it were the Deputy to stay for the response.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to stay for the Topical Issue matter.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I ask the Deputy to stay for the response.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He is not listening. It is okay.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

In conclusion, I have given my reply to the Deputy. It is disingenuous that he walked out while I was speaking. That really is disingenuous of the Deputy while I am here addressing a question that he bought here. I have given my reply to him and that is the end of that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would like to say that Topical Issue slots are fiercely fought for and lots of people put in applications. In my role as Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I have been there myself trying to pick them. We desperately try to be fair and just. To walk out when your Topical Issue is picked and being answered is not acceptable.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I agree with that. It is disgraceful.

An Garda Síochána

Deputy Patrick Costello

In the interest of saving time and because the facts are well known, I do not think I need to lay out the significant issue facing the State regarding these ongoing arson attacks. I do not believe that we are taking them seriously enough and I do not believe the Garda is taking them seriously enough. We need to look not only at the individual cases but at the systemic problem they point to. Despite recent arrests, I suggest we are still not taking them seriously. The Commissioner has spoken about these being one-off, lone wolf or copycat attacks. I think his exact words were that there was no guiding hand but there is a clear systemic pattern here whereby a small group of people is pointing out new centres that are being prepared for use and within days, those are set on fire.

There is a clear systemic pattern here and we are not responding to that. Inaction has consequences. Last February, a group of protesters stood outside a Garda station openly calling for arson to significant cheers and applause from the crowds. That was last February and since then, there have been fires and arson in Buncrana, Sandwith Street, Buncrana again, Ballincollig, Ballybrack, Sherrard Street, Fermoy, the Holiday Inn off O’Connell Street, Finglas, Rosslare, Rosscahill, County Galway, Ringsend, Sandyford, Lanesborough, Crooksling and Leixlip and there are more which happened before that. There is a systemic issue here that the Garda is just not facing up to. In its own statements, An Garda Síochána has dismissed any kind of organisation behind this, where there is a clear pattern. The pattern and the organisation behind these attacks ultimately are a threat to our democracy. It is the same group of people who are assaulting TDs out here. It is the same group that is currently targeting IPAS applicants sleeping rough on the streets of Dublin. There is a threat and there is danger here, not just in individual cases, but in a systemic way. It represents a complete breakdown in law and order. It is both deeply frustrating and deeply dangerous that An Garda Síochána does not see the pattern here and does not acknowledge that this is a wider issue that needs a significantly stronger response. When Commissioner Harris was before the justice committee I raised this with him and he said very concerning things. Among other things, he stated the Garda was not up on their networks.

However, the reality is that this is all being done in public on Facebook and Telegram. These people are proud of what they have done and are bragging about it. If we cannot find the evidence or patterns in public statements of those who are bragging, the state of the Garda is very concerning.

Minister for Justice (Deputy Helen McEntee)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter, which is on all our minds at the moment. I will start with a positive: all communities across the country have been extremely welcoming and supportive of the large number of people who have come to this country seeking protection and shelter. That will continue.

While people have a right to protest, which we should always protect, people do not have a right to do so in a way that causes harm or causes people to fear for their safety or in a way that threatens public safety and order. The intimidation of migrants and the blocking of access to accommodation centres, in particular, are absolutely unacceptable and warrant an appropriate response from the Garda. I do believe the Garda has responded appropriately. It is important to point out that many of the people at protests are not the ones who escalate the violence or escalate activity to the point where arson is committed. There is a line in this regard that gardaí have to examine. They must find out who is saying what, whether they cross a threshold, whether the threshold is a criminal one, where hurtful and harmful is being used as opposed to the carrying out of certain acts. All this work has to be done. I assure the Deputy that the Garda does monitor this type of behaviour. It monitors the protests and what has been said online. However, to have prosecutions, you need a huge amount of evidence. Last year alone, more than 800 protests were monitored by an Garda. In the Dublin metropolitan region alone, there were 430. At those, there were 43 arrests, 32 of which were during the protests. However, there were 11 arrests afterwards. While it might not seem like something is happening at the time or on the day, work is done afterwards.

There are also gardaí proactively looking online. Only last night, I spoke to someone in my constituency with a property that was targeted by individuals who stated online that people would be coming to it seeking international protection. Gardaí came to him and said they saw the information online and that he needed to ensure his property was secure. They said they could support him in doing that. However, we have to be realistic as well. It is not possible for the Garda to manage and stand outside every single vacant property in the country. I believe the Deputy agrees with that. We have to ensure that where situations arise, gardaí have the resources available to conduct the investigations. The Deputy mentioned that ten arrests have already been made specific to the arsons that have taken place, not just those of the past few weeks but also those of the past few months. Other arrests have taken place related to vandalism at these properties. It is so important that people realise vandalism is not protesting. Somebody who believes that by breaking a window at a direct provision centre, they are merely making a point should realise that doing so is a criminal act. There are very serious penalties when it comes to arson. The maximum is up to life in prison When it comes to vandalism, it is up to ten years in prison or a significant fine. People need to be very clear.

It is very important that we do not in any way suggest gardaí or anyone else in this House is responsible for what is happening or that those seeking protection are responsible. The only people who are responsible for the arson attacks, vandalism, the violence we are seeing and the harmful language online are those planning and carrying out these acts and lighting the matches. There can never be a justification for such acts, regardless of circumstance or alleged motivation.

I stress what I have said several times: anybody who has information needs to come forward. You are complicit if you are not providing information to An Garda Síochána. I appreciate it can be frustrating for people who want to see arrests take place yesterday. However, if you want a conviction you need to make sure the criminal threshold is reached, there is CCTV, there are witnesses, there are people willing to come forward and, when you go to the DPP, there is enough evidence for a prosecution. The Garda is absolutely committed to ensuring those responsible for these vile acts are held accountable. I do not like the situation any more than the Deputy but the Commissioner, whom I speak to regularly, has been assured that he will have any additional resources he needs.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Unfortunately, based on the Commissioner's public statements, his statements at the committee and his idea that there is no systemic planning and that it is simply a matter of one-off events, I do not share that confidence. Furthermore, it is not just a question of the person who lights the match. Our criminal law provides that anyone who aids, abets, counsels or procures is an accomplice and is as guilty as the principal offender. Equally, there is the crime of incitement. We have seen plenty of incitement that has gone utterly unpunished. I am talking about incitement of criminality, let alone incitement of hatred and the hate speech aspect.

I underline that we need to address the systemic issues related to people who are deliberately planning, plotting and organising and who present a serious and genuine threat to the institutions of our democracy. Beyond this, there are people who are openly planning, recruiting and bragging about vigilante groups being set up around the country. There are people posting their community patrols on Facebook and posting recruitment posters for them. They are trying to pull people in. Vigilante groups are absolutely a threat to our democracy. Journalists are being singled out, called out by name, threatened, harassed and intimidated. Despite how we may feel about journalists and some of the things they say about Members, they are an essential part of our democratic institutions. They, too, are under attack from the same sources. There is a very serious, shadowy threat against our democracy and people's lives are at risk. I do not believe, based on the Commissioner's public statements, that he is taking the matter seriously.

Deputy Helen McEntee

While I cannot speak for the Commissioner, I know that he was referring in his statements to the fact that we cannot link every attack to the same group of people or individuals. There was an incident recently when a vacant building that had nothing to do with any type of accommodation for anyone was set alight. We are talking about acts of criminality. The individuals are criminals, not masterminds. As far as I am concerned, these are criminals who are going around setting buildings alight and putting people at risk. We are really lucky that nobody has been seriously injured or worse. The Deputy should be reassured that the Garda is taking this as seriously as necessary.

When it comes to dealing with the online space, we have an Online Safety Commissioner now. The Deputy's colleague in the Green Party has been responsible for getting Coimisiún na Meán up and running. It is actively engaging with the online providers and gardaí. It is about safeguards where something does not necessarily cross the threshold. One of the issues brought to my attention is that there is a very high threshold in the incitement legislation, particularly when trying to prosecute. The DPP is very clear on what it needs and the evidence it requires, and that is why we have the hate crime legislation, which I want to enact. We need to ensure our laws are as strong as possible so the Garda has the resources it needs. However, evidence is needed, and that is why Coimisiún na Meán will be so important. It is a matter of service providers taking down harmful content that has not crossed the threshold. Where they cross it, they must be fined and penalised. There is a body of work involving Coimisiún na Meán, the online providers and An Garda Síochána.

Separately, it is so important that where people have information on any of these incidents, they provide it to the Garda. On the Deputy's point, it is not just a matter of the person who lights the match but also of the person who plans the incident and aids and abets. Those who have information and do not come forward are as guilty as the person who lights the match.

Road Projects

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, for coming in. I would obviously have preferred a Minister with a transport brief but nonetheless, I appreciate her turning up. She always does, to be fair.

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

Is the Deputy going to leave?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I am not going to leave. To make a comment on that, I understand why people get frustrated. I would not legitimise certain actions but we do prepare for Topical Issues. I have come a number of times and-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is also a choice to withdraw.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I know that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The clock is running.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the funding that has been provided for Cork in the past few years. We were at the Dunkettle interchange site on Monday with the Tánaiste cutting the ribbon. There has been an investment of €215 million over the past several years.

It will considerably enhance the lives and travelling habits of people across that area of Cork county and city into the future. I also acknowledge the Baile Bhuirne and Macroom bypass, which was opened by the Tánaiste last year. I am not for a second suggesting that Cork has not got its fair share of major infrastructural projects; it has. It is evidenced in those two projects in particular. However, I have fears and concerns about a number of projects. I understand that allocations for the National Roads Authority and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, are imminent and will happen in the next few weeks. I will raise a few.

A few kilometres to the east of the Dunkettle Interchange is a stretch of road between Carrigtohill and Midleton that has many crossing points. It is quite dangerous and there have been a number of accidents over many years. TII officials will attend a transport committee meeting this morning where they will present a case for the priorities they will progress in the near future. Unfortunately, the Carrigtohill to Midleton project is only listed for safety works and, therefore, the proposal supported by Cork County Council that this road would receive a major upgrade akin to the Dunkettle Interchange because it connects to it seems to be on the back foot.

To the north west of the Dunkettle Interchange, there is a project that was previously known as the north ring road in Cork city. It has been talked about for 25 years. It has now been renamed the Cork city northern transport corridor or the northern distributor road, depending on the document. Essentially that ring road would provide many more bus lanes and cycles lanes. It is being described as a multi-modal project. It will improve access and all that, which is great. It is welcome. However, there is no mention of it in the TII document to be discussed at this morning's transport committee meeting. That is quite concerning.

I do not want to pre-empt the allocations announcement that will take place in a week or two. I have no doubt that the Minister of State does not have it in front of her and I do not think that good news will come from her. It might be somewhere else but I have serious concerns that project will be left to languish. It is difficult when I was at the opening of a €215 million road on a Monday and a few weeks later I might face the prospect of a road directly to the east and another directly to the north west not progressing when they only need a few million euro to progress through planning and design. We are not talking about building the roads yet, just progressing them to the next stage. It is quite difficult for people to understand how we can build a road for €215 million and leave behind a few other projects that are immediately adjacent to it and that connect to it that would enhance the access for everyone around that area.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

The Minister for Transport apologises that he is not here this morning. He has responsibility for the overall policy and Exchequer funding for the national roads programme. Once funding arrangements have been put in place with TII under the Roads Acts, 1993 to 2015, and in line with the national development plan, NDP, the planning, design, improvement and upgrading of individual national roads is a matter for TII, in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. TII ultimately delivers the national roads programme in line with Project Ireland 2040, the national planning framework and the NDP. The Government has earmarked €5.1 billion for capital spending on new national roads projects from 2021 to 2030 as part of the NDP. The funding will enable improved regional access across the country as well as compact growth, which are key national strategic outcomes. The funding will provide for the development of numerous national road projects, including the completion of projects, which are already at construction stage and those close to it, as well as the development of a number of others.

As the greater portion of this funding becomes available in the second half of the decade, there is a constraint on the funding available for projects in 2023 and 2024. No one wants to hear that sort of news. That is obviously why I am here. However, approximately €491 million of Exchequer capital funds were provided for national roads through TII to local authorities in 2023. Allocations for 2024 will be announced in the very near future. Since 2020, approximately €320 million in Exchequer capital funding has been allocated for the national road network in Cork county and city. That is €320 million in recent years. This has included funding for a number of new national roads projects in the Cork North-Central and Cork East areas. The N72 and N73 Mallow relief road project is included among a number of major national road schemes that were identified in the NDP for planning, design and construction. The scheme consists of a bypass of the town of Mallow. It would reduce congestion in the town, improve air quality and allow for public realm improvements. It would also deliver improved safety in the town. The route options selection phase for the project is now complete, with detailed planning and design to follow. The development of the N/M20 project between Cork and Limerick is ongoing with a business case expected next year. This project would close a gap in the road network and provides increased opportunities for developing the Atlantic economic corridor. It would also benefit towns in north Cork, including Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow. The Cork city northern transport project would provide improved regional access and connectivity around Cork city, enhancing the mobility of people and goods throughout the urban area of Cork city. The project would ensure other multimodal transport infrastructure would continue to function effectively in the long term, hence protecting the public investment that has taken place and enabling the city to transition successfully to more sustainable transport modes. Is that the northern distributor road the Deputy talked about?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

No.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Okay. There is no mention of that, but at the same time, it is here in my document. I will bring it back to the Minister, Deputy Ryan. The proposed N25 Castlemartyr to Killeagh bypass is now funded as part of a longer N25 Midleton to Youghal scheme that will include bypassing the villages of Castlemartyr and Killeagh. This would reduce congestion and greatly improve quality of life for residents in these villages. Cork County Council has advertised vacancies for technical advisers to advance the project through the route options selection phase. I do not know whether that answers the Deputy's question, but I am sure he will tell me.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

As I said at the outset, to be fair, I did not expect the Minister of State to disclose the allocations that are due to be announced in the coming weeks. I am realistic about the question I asked but, at the same time, I am flagging that I specifically asked about the north ring road, as it was formerly called and the Carrigtohill to Midleton stretch in east Cork. I did not ask about the Mallow relief road because I am quite confident about it from the general talk around that scheme and TII's ambitions, commitments and comments, not only in private, but also in the public domain. It is on TII's agenda to be discussed at the transport committee meeting later. I am quite confident that the Mallow scheme will progress. That is great news for the people of Mallow.

The reason I specifically raised the northern distributor road or north ring road and the Carrigtohill to Midleton stretch is that I genuinely have a fear they will not progress. I have made that clear to the Tánaiste and to the Minister for Finance in my party. As I said in my opening statement, it is quite difficult when there is a massive infrastructural project such as the Dunkettle Interchange with all the traffic that feeds into it. From the eastern side, 120,000 traffic movements a day come through Carrigtohill on the specific stretch of road I am referring to and that feeds directly into the interchange. It takes a lot of the traffic from the Waterford direction into the city and south of the county. For that not to progress and for the Dunkettle Interchange to be operational makes no sense.

I would say the same about the northern distributor road. Much of that scheme is about installing bus lanes, cycle lanes, safety measures and all so on. There are probably projects in the Minister of State's county that are stalled or not progressing. It is up to her whether she wants to comment on them. However, for a piece of infrastructure that would benefit everyone potentially not to progress-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are under pressure for time

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

-----is quite concerning.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

There is no doubt that there are a number of road projects in my and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's county that we would love to see progress. The Deputy stated that 120,000 cars go through the Carrigtohlil area. We have 100,000 cars going through Clarinbridge and traffic calming measures would be welcome in that area. While it is not in my script - these are my words - when it comes to safety works, I cannot understand how the TII cannot prioritise them.

Where there are schools and children's crossings, there has to be prioritisation of works. When we are looking at climate change, there has to be prioritisation when it comes to different forms and methods of transport that can enable fair accessibility. It is a prioritisation.

At the same time, however, it is also important to flag that €320 million, and the last €4 million in the Deputy's county, is not an unfair or mean share. We would love to get a portion of that in the west, particularly in my own county. The sort of work and relief works that would bring would be amazing. In saying that, however, the Minister for Transport has allocated national roads funding for 2023 in a manner that sought to achieve the following key outcomes: protection and renewal of existing national road networks; progressing major projects in or near construction, hence the cutting of the ribbon on the opening of the Dunkettle project on Monday; progressing major projects that are at preconstruction but well-advanced in the development of pipelines, which is the Mallow project about which the Deputy spoke; and prioritisation of any remaining funds for major projects that provide local bypasses and compact growth in Ireland's towns or villages.

The key piece for me as an outsider looking at this, however, is that safety has to be a priority at all times when decisions are being made.

Disability Services

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I am glad the Minister of State is in the Chamber. I know from having been contacted by representatives from WALK that there have quite a few frantic telephone calls since I tabled this Topical Issue matter and since the board of WALK took the decision to close its residential service. That is what it was moving towards.

WALK is an organisation in Walkinstown that is aimed at empowering people with disabilities, many of whom have quite complex needs. Its aim is to try to ensure that people live a self-determined life where they can go to work and enjoy themselves and, in some cases, access community living.

A number of residential spaces are available through WALK, which provides that service. In fact, it provides it for people with quite complex needs, which would cost the State a fortune if it was paying the private sector rather than a charity, as it is in this case. I will come back to that, however.

WALK, like every single organisation and person in Ireland, has suffered a cost-of-living increase in its costs that has not been addressed. The funding it is getting is not sufficient to ensure that it can survive or continue the work it has been doing quite successfully. Representatives from WALK told me that, in the main, the average that charities that provide this work get in terms of a resident is approximately €140,000 whereas in the private sector, it is between €300,000 and €360,000. There is, therefore, a big gap. Yet, here is an organisation that has seven empty spaces as we stand, and an additional seven that it can take on to save the State money. It also had a previous home that could take another seven but the HSE has not been engaging properly. That is one of the key issues.

We have an organisation that is addressing the needs of our society, not with huge costs but on the cheap in some ways, and it has gotten into difficulty. Mr. John Bourke of the WALK board said that enough is enough. He said they have a huge debt that they cannot sustain and they have done their due diligence and something has to give. The HSE must, therefore, come up with a programme to address this, and not the programme that was being discussed with WALK, which was to do with lowering the skills set of those working in the residential service. It should be increasing it. Payroll cost is going to be minuscule the terms of the costs here. WALK said there is an €800,000 deficit. That needs to be addressed and that can be addressed by increasing the rate at which the HSE pays for those who are in the residential facilities it has. That means they have that comfort. The officials can go to a bank and say that this money will be reduced. Otherwise, the organisation will be called into question, like many other charities that provide services. That needs to happen quickly. The stuff around payroll, rostering and all of that can come at a later stage if needs be. There needs to be a commitment to ensure that those families or, in fact, individuals who depend on WALK to provide the service are protected. There would be nothing worse than if there was a break in continuity for those who have those complex needs and if, all of a sudden, the service was gone and they were back living at home again or wherever they came from in the first instance. I appeal to the Minister of State to make sure that this is addressed as quickly as possible.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy very much for the opportunity to address this issue on the floor of the Dáil. From what I can gather from correspondence I received from him when responding to the Topical Issue and from Senators Ardagh and Seery Kearney, there is a state of flux at this moment in the Deputy's area.

Residential services are currently provided by way of more than 3,800 placements to people with disabilities nationally. These services are provided by the HSE itself. WALK is a section 39 organisation that provides day service to 230 adults, which I visited during Covid times. I have seen their cafe and garden. I met with services users who spoke of their enjoyment of attending their day services.

WALK currently provides for 27 people with disabilities or mental health issues. I really appreciate the Deputy's openness in telling me what is available in terms of the other 14 residential spaces. That was not made available to me in all of my briefing documents. To think that in the heart of Dublin we are struggling to find places and we find out there are 14 spaces available, I thank the Deputy for that.

We all know first-hand the good work that is being delivered through the Oireachtas Work Learn, OWL, training programme for young adults with intellectual disabilities, which is also supported by WALK. In 2023, WALK was in receipt of just over €8 million in funding from the HSE. I am informed by the HSE that an amount of funding was withheld from WALK in 2023. I have no doubt that is putting it under substantial financial pressure in early 2024 due to service users being transferred to nursing home placements or in acute hospital due to a decline in health.

I am advised that the HSE has not stated that it would not fund residential placements. However, I understand that the funding is one of a number of issues that is under active consideration by the HSE with the organisation. The year 2023 had seen work done by the HSE with WALK. Early in the year, the HSE commissioned a service user review of the organisation services with a focus on funding and its utilisation. The draft report had been shared with the organisation's CEO. I am reassured by the fact that there is ongoing engagement between the HSE and WALK. Most recent meetings took place between WALK's CEO, the HSE head of disability services and their management teams only in the past week or ten days. The management teams have agreed to work together to progress a programme of work under the following headings: funding; residential placements; the governance and staffing structures; risk assessments; and clinical input. The HSE and WALK will consider these areas to agree a service improvement plan to work together to address the matter.

Aside from all I have said in reply to the Deputy, WALK is an invaluable provider to services users who have disability needs or mental health needs in a highly densely populated area. The work it does is well recognised and appreciated. The programme work it is currently undertaking is not to put any pressure under WALK whatsoever. I would certainly like the Deputy's constituents to know there is no fear of WALK closing or anything like that. The HSE must and will work with WALK to ensure there is a sustainable, viable solution for WALK. The piece we need to focus on is the sustainability and growth of the service. We know about the level of unmet need right across the country. However, when we have capacity in the service, it is incumbent on the HSE to work with WALK to ensure that capacity can be leaned upon and, at the same time, on a parallel process to address all the operations. I totally agree with the Deputy's sentiment and proposal.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Go raibh maith agat. I think WALK will be happy with the contribution and the commitments that have been given. There is an urgency about this.

One of the facilities, which has seven beds, is not available at the moment because WALK could not wait. It has seven places available and the other seven places may come back in the near future. As I said, WALK could not wait on the HSE to take that up.

The cost of living needs to be addressed by a higher allocation per resident than is currently the case. The allocation needs to meet the costs of section 38 and 39 organisations. We know of other areas as well. The State must consider this matter, especially given that the private sector can get more. If we pay the same rate across the board, many of these organisations will be able to do much more and Mr. Bourke, others on the board and the staff will not have to deal with this issue, which distracts them from their work. It is an important issue and needs to be put right, given that we have seen what happens when the funding is not right. If an organisation has worries about a deficit hanging over it, it gets distracted.

We must ensure that we plan for the future as regards the unmet needs the Minister of State mentioned. Where organisations are looking to help the State, families and individuals, we need to harness that. A great deal of work has been done, but this is an instance where there either seems to have been a miscommunication or a stay is being applied. People are worried that this shortfall will affect the rest of the services they are providing. This is not their only service, as they have many more.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Today in Athlone, 70 people, including all heads of disability organisations and community health organisations and the entire Department, are meeting to discuss the disability capacity action plan for the next number of years. One of the main priorities of that meeting is ensuring the sustainability of services and letting people understand that we in the Department, including the Minister, acknowledge that there is a sustainability issue. We are dealing with services that have been underfunded, not just in recent years, but for countless decades. I keep saying this. We need to ensure that these services are shored up and supported in a parallel process while we address needs, including unmet ones, and bring governance, structures and so on up to a standard that allows for proper service level agreements within the new Department. We are prioritising this.

I acknowledge the work being done by WALK for the 250 day service users and the variety of day service user opportunities that it provides. Some of its members are working in the Oireachtas while others are participating in a work programme abroad with Pfizer. WALK is also very involved in its community garden.

To the families that have loved ones attending WALK’s services, be those day services or residential services, I assure them that WALK and all other services will get the support they need in a parallel process while ensuring sustainability and allowing capacity for growth.