Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Mar 2024

Vol. 1051 No. 2

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I begin today by extending my and Sinn Féin's deepest sympathies to the family of Saoírse Ruane. She inspired all of us in this House. She also inspired the toy show appeal. She inspired all of us right throughout the State in her battle with her illness. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a hanam. I am thinking of all her friends and colleagues and, especially, her family today.

Before the referendums tomorrow, I also make a final appeal to voters to come out and vote. We see the proposed changes as small steps forward and, on balance, we have advocated for a "Yes" vote in both referendums. Whatever the results, however, this must be a catalyst for meaningful change for people with disabilities, those who need care and their carers. I appeal to the Government to deliver the long-overdue rights and supports badly needed in this context.

Cluineann muid go bhfuil comhdháil náisiúnta ag an IPHA inniu agus tá sé ag díriú aird arís ar an am atá á ghlacadh ag an bhfeidhmeannas sláinte le drugaí úra agus drugaí a thig leo tacaíocht a thabhairt do dhaoine agus beatha daoine a shábháil a thabhairt ar an margadh. Tá sé ag glacadh i bhfad an iomarca ama é seo a dhéanamh. Caithfidh athrú teacht air seo. Tá staidéar déanta fá dtaobh de agus tá muid ar chúl san Eoraip ina thaobh. The IPHA is holding its annual conference today and it has highlighted the length of time it is taking the health service to approve the availability of new drugs. This has the potential to make real life-changing differences to the lives of patients in all our constituencies in every part of this island. Many innovative and life-changing drugs that save lives are produced here in Ireland, in the Tánaiste's own home county of Cork and elsewhere. Many Irish patients, though, are among the last in Europe to receive these drugs. How is this fair? Drugs are being produced down the road, but we are some of the last in line in Europe to actually get access to them. Careful consideration of drugs is needed and a balance must always be struck when we are looking at the issue of new drugs, but for those who are cancer patients or those with a rare disease, though, the industry has very clearly said Ireland is a laggard in this regard. When we compare ourselves with our European partners, we are at the bottom of the list in relation to access to these life-changing drugs. To add injury to insult, we also have a two-tier system where patients who have private health insurance get rapid access to these drugs once they are approved by the EMA, while patients who do not have the money for private health insurance must wait on a long, drawn-out process for the HSE to approve these drugs. In some cases, this can take years.

We all know the human impact of this situation. We also know what the problem is here. We have seen the reports being published in relation to this issue. They refer to a process that is convoluted and beset by staff and capacity problems. If staff are not there to process these approvals, then the problems and the delays are going to continue. There is uncertainty about the future funding streams for drugs. We saw this in the context of the recent budget where the Government did not allocate any new money for the provision of new drugs. Sinn Féin, the industry and professionals called the Government out on this issue, and it had to do a U-turn on it. This is not the way to manage this crucial issue. The problem is we have a steady flow of new drugs coming on stream, but we do not have multiannual funding or adequate staffing to ensure patients can secure timely and life-saving access to them. The average wait time in this State is around two years for new drugs to be approved by the HSE and this is simply far too long. When the now Tánaiste was on this side of the House, I heard him raise these exact same issues. I refer, for example, to Orkambi and its use by cystic fibrosis patients. Nothing has changed, despite the Tánaiste and a Fianna Fáil Minister for Health being in government for four years. The Tánaiste, therefore, is well aware of the issues and the length of time involved in this regard.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, we are over time.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We are talking about life-changing drugs that can save the lives of people with rare diseases and cancer. There is great frustration. Will the Tánaiste ensure multiannual funding is allocated to provide a clear and predictable budget for the HSE to manage a continuous supply of new medicines? Will he also ensure the issue of staff capacity is addressed? It was pointed out to the Government last year and it has still not done anything about it. The staffing level has not been increased.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Deputy. We are over time.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

People in my constituency and that of the Tánaiste are waiting over two years for drugs to be approved. If people have private healthcare, however, they can get them straight away.

The Tánaiste

I also take the opportunity to offer my deepest condolences to the family of Saoírse Ruane, her parents, Ollie and Roseanna, her sisters and all who knew and loved her. I was fortunate enough to meet Saoírse at Croke Park some years ago. I was very much struck by her radiant smile, her warm personality and her love of sports, including Gaelic games. Saoírse inspired so many people with her positivity and courage. She has left an extraordinary legacy through the RTÉ toy show appeal. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a hanam dílis.

Turning to the point made by the Deputy, it is worth recalling and pointing out that about €3 billion is spent by the State on medicines annually. This is an enormous sum of money. It is important that we always strive to get value for money in terms of the spending of that €3 billion and strive for the best outcomes for patients. The HSE has approved about 148 new medicines in the past three years from €98 million in new medicines funding. It is not true, therefore, to say that nothing has happened. I did raise these issues when I was in opposition, and since we came into government additional money has been allocated every year. In the last three years, this has amounted to €98 million, with 148 new medicines approved. The total expenditure in that basket was about €327 million, to the end of 2023. We also made €30 million available this year for new drugs. There has been €20 million in new Government investment and the HSE has been requested to identify €10 million in efficiencies, which will be reinvested in new medicines. This morning, the Minister announced an additional 35 staff for the corporate pharmaceutical unit in the HSE. It is very welcome news that positions are being filled that had been vacant as a result of people moving on to other areas. The Minister has also agreed to create a tracker to monitor the journey of a medicine through the administrative process.

The Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association, IPHA, is the industry lobby group. That is fair. It lobbies on behalf of the industry in respect of new medicines and the pricing around them and it would say it has a good and robust relationship with the Minister. The health technology assessment, as the Deputy is aware, is carried out primarily by the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics, NCPE. The IPHA has said it has a good and robust professional working relationship with that aspect of the process too, although it is concerned about administrative delays. When a product comes out of the NCPE process, it moves to a group in the HSE that evaluates drugs in terms of value for money, etc. The idea here is to get this process speeded up. The IPHA's view is that this currently takes too long.

Taking last year as an example, it is estimated that if we had accepted the original prices the industry put forward for all the new drugs, we would have spent about €400 million extra. In reality, we spent €200 million. There is a need, therefore, for a fairly robust engagement here with the industry on an ongoing, annual basis in respect of drugs that come forward.

Deputies Pádraig O'Sullivan and Lahart and others have been very strong advocates in the area of rare diseases and orphan drugs. There has been significant progress on that with the establishment of the working group and so forth. We are anxious to work with industry to see if we can develop a more effective approach to offering medicines with a fast-track assessment process. That is under consideration.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Tánaiste talks about frustration. I mentioned that there must always be balance and consideration. The approval of a new drug is supposed to take 180 days. The Tánaiste talked about people with rare diseases and cancer patients. We are at the bottom of the list in Europe for accessing these drugs. All through the term of this Government that has been the situation. Irish people are likely to be one of the last in the line to access these drugs, which are being produced in the main in Ireland, in some cases down the road from the Tánaiste. That only applies for a public patient. A private patient with money who can afford private healthcare can get rapid access to these drugs.

These are not just drugs of convenience; these are drugs that keep people alive. Lives have been saved by these drugs and other lives have been lost as a result of the delays in processing these drugs. I am not questioning whether we are making money available for new drugs or whether new drugs are coming on stream, but why is Ireland the laggard in Europe on this? The Government received an expert report last year and has now set up an expert working group. I am sure that when it reports to the Government, it will set up an expert Cabinet committee and then an expert implementation group.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

However, throughout the term of the Government we have been the laggard in Europe in processing and approving drugs that can save lives for public patients.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste to respond. We are way over time.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is not acceptable.

The Tánaiste

I do not accept that. At the outset, the Deputy said that there was no new money this year; there was. Some €30 million has been made available. He said nothing had changed since the Government came in.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I said the Government had been forced to do a U-turn.

The Tánaiste

In fact, €98 million of new money has been provided since this Government came in for new medicines. I refer to 148 new medicines in the past three years, as well as 39 new drugs or new uses of existing drugs with an orphan designation. By orphan, we mean drugs for rare diseases and they are termed orphan drugs because of that. We spend €3 billion a year on medicines. That is not inconsiderable and we are not the laggard across Europe. I do not accept that at all. In fact, we would be a laggard in the use of generic drugs relative to others across Europe.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

So, we are not at the bottom of the table.

The Tánaiste

In the last three years there have been about 61 new drugs or new uses of existing drugs for use in oncology alone for cancer patients. It is a very rapidly moving area, particularly in terms of immunotherapy drugs and so on. The funding has gone up exponentially over time. We need a system to evaluate this and make sure we get best value for money. In principle, I am disposed to getting drugs to the people who need them as fast as possible.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Tánaiste is missing the point that we are one of the slowest. Perhaps he is not missing the point but is ignoring it.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Powerful countries in the West, all of which claim to value human rights and international law, have been revealed by the war in Gaza as immoral hypocrites. They only value international law when their enemies and not their allies are in breach. Their shameful record in Gaza amounts to the normalisation of mass murder and devastation. They wag their fingers at the Israeli Government occasionally but continue to support and arm Israel. Their bombs and bullets have killed more than 30,000 Palestinians. It is not just the United States that is engaged in this. Arms exports from Germany to Israel have increased tenfold since October. Weapons from Germany now make up nearly 30% of Israel's military imports. Genocide is a nice little earner for the German arms industry. The UK has said it has concerns that Israel may be breaching international human rights law but those concerns have not stopped it selling weapons to Israel. Far from it, there is not a single pause in supply.

How much more suffering can people in Gaza endure? How much more death and destruction are western countries willing to facilitate? Is there any upper limit, any point at which world leaders will be sickened enough to act? Children in Gaza who managed to survive an unprecedented bombardment are now dying of starvation. They are dying from hunger while thousands of trucks packed with food aid are lined up for miles at the border crossing. The Israeli Government is denying entry to that aid. It is making a deliberate choice to starve these children. Let us not pretend otherwise. This is not just callous and clinical; it is a flagrant breach of the recent ruling of the International Court of Justice. The ICJ ordered immediate and effective measures to protect Palestinians from genocide by ensuring sufficient humanitarian assistance to Gaza. The response of the Israeli Government has been to reduce the supply of aid and starve the population. Its contempt for international law could not be clearer.

Just because many countries in the West have lost their moral compass, it does not mean we have to. Given that we are in a minority in advocating for Gaza, there is even more of an obligation on us to act. I have repeatedly acknowledged that the Irish Government has been strong in its condemnation of Israel's brutality, but I and people all over Ireland are still waiting for the Government to follow those words with actions. As a sovereign country, there are things we could do for which we do not need an international consensus. The Dáil could sit over the recess to enact the occupied territories Bill or the Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill. We could issue travel bans for violent Israeli settlers, including those in the Israeli Government. We could recognise the state of Palestine. Will the Government do those things?

The Tánaiste

The most important point is that Ireland has not lost its moral compass on this issue. I think we should agree on that in this House. The situation in Gaza is absolutely catastrophic. I agree with Josep Borrell, the EU vice president and head of European foreign policy, when he said people should stop sending arms if they want an end to the conflict. Other countries should stop sending arms in order to bring an end to this conflict. I know that many countries are trying to bring an end to the conflict. I have no doubt that many in the US want this to end but Israel is reckless with its own allies and is it is reckless with the region. Above all it is reckless with the lives of ordinary Gazans. It is absolutely reckless in allowing what is happening to happen on a daily basis. We are witnessing a complete collapse of societal cohesion within Gaza. We saw the shocking scenes last week when 100 people were killed and clearly many were hit by bullets fired by Israeli forces. There should be an international investigation into that. That represented the collapse of any order in the area in terms of facilitating the distribution of aid. Gazan police were targeted by Israeli forces when they were helping UN agencies to distribute food.

When I spoke to Sigrid Kaag, the UN envoy to the Middle East and to Gaza in particular, she said that without question we are in the midst of a collapse. The people in Gaza are absolutely desperate. Their situation is dire. Children are suffering malnutrition. Our priority has been an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. We have worked with the Palestinian Authority, the Saudi Arabian foreign minister, Jordanians, Egyptians and others. Last week, I sent officials to Jordan to work with them on the Arab peace plan which should emerge imminently. They are liaising with the US and the European Union. That peace plan is essential in securing any ceasefire that might happen over the coming days. We hope it does because that has to happen. There then needs to be unimpeded access to aid. Israel has responsibilities under international humanitarian law to protect the civilians in Gaza.

Israel is not fulfilling that obligation as an occupying power in any shape or form. It is contributing to the deaths in the bombardment of Gaza but also in the starvation of the people of Gaza. I welcome the fact that the European Commission has now reversed its pause and has allocated and restarted the funding of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA. I believe we showed leadership and action with regard to UNRWA and we were the first and only country to say that there should be no pause to aid for UNRWA despite what happened, and despite what any other countries had done. We followed that up quickly by meeting with Philippe Lazzarini and allocating €20 million upfront. These actions are cause and effect.

Deputy Holly Cairns

One, the Tánaiste has not answered a single one of my questions. Two, it is just more words that do not even suggest that they will be followed by any kind of actions. It is important to look back to 1984 when Dunnes Stores workers refused to stock the shelves with products from apartheid South Africa. Never let it be said that a small country cannot have an impact. Big or small, it is important that in times like this that, as a country, we stand up and be brave. I have asked the Tánaiste, as a country, about the things we can do without international consensus. We can recognise the State of Palestine. We can enact the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill and the Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill. Is the Tánaiste willing to match any of his words with any kind of action that could send a message, big or small, which could actually have an impact in the face of an impending genocide? Children are starving and European countries are arming this massacre. What is the Tánaiste going to actually do? He should spare me the empty words and please tell me what actions he will take.

The Tánaiste

My words are not empty, Deputy. I believe in substance on this issue and not words. I have heard many words in this House and across its foor about substance and impact. I believe Ireland can have impact, small and all as we are, and we are having impact. We are one of the few countries which have already made a robust legal submission to the International Court of Justice in respect of the UN seeking an advisory opinion on the legality or illegality of Israel's occupation. The Attorney General gave a very robust and very effective performance. That is action. Very few other countries are doing that.

I have already outlined to the Deputy the action we have taken on UNRWA. I answered earlier in the House on the question of recognition, where I said to the Deputy that we are working with the Arab peace initiative. We have discussed this with them as to what is the optimal time for recognition. When will it have most impact? It is only something that one can do once.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Can you do this now? It might be a good time.

The Tánaiste

I am telling the Deputy that I believe the best and optimal time is following the publication of the Arab peace initiative and in the developing of a political track whereby a number of European countries together could, on the back of that and in tandem with that act-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

You could enact the Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill.

The Tánaiste

-----which is far more effective. This idea of the Deputy trying to score points or suggesting that she is more virtuous than everybody else in the House on this question is an approach we need to dispense with. We all want this to end but I genuinely believe Ireland can and is having an impact and we are using every possible forum - diplomatic, legal and political - to end this.

Deputy Cathal Berry

Ba mhaith liom labhairt freisin faoi cad atá ar siúl i nGaza faoi láthair. I would also like to speak about the situation in Gaza. I want to focus on the international humanitarian operation that is air-dropping food supplies by parachute directly onto the strip. I am doubling down on the previous speaker's remarks and I would absolutely be in favour of, and it is far preferable that there be, a permanent ceasefire, a prisoner exchange and direct humanitarian access on the ground. While the negotiations are ongoing for that to take place, as an interim solution this is something which is viable, worthwhile and is something Ireland should examine.

There will be consequences to any action Ireland takes. If Ireland expels the Israeli ambassador, Israel will just expel our ambassador. If Ireland tries to slap sanctions on Israel, it will just slap sanctions on Ireland back and, not only that, but that other countries would probably join them as would other corporations. If Ireland engages in certain legal practices, life on the ground would become very difficult for our troops, for our humanitarian workers and for our diplomats, to such an extent that they may not be able to carry out their vitally important function.

The only consequences to Ireland involving itself in this type of humanitarian air-drop by parachute operation is that women and children will be fed. An added bonus is that it will be very symbolic and would send a very powerful and pragmatic message to both the current Israeli Government and to the Knesset.

The reason I raise this is because there has been a number of media comments over the past week or so that Ireland is considering participating in this operation. Are those media reports true? Is Ireland considering being involved in this humanitarian parachute operation? My understanding is that we do not have the technical capability in our air corps at the moment. Is that the case? I am open to correction on that. If we are going to participate and we do not have the technical capability, what form will that assistance take?

Finally, I understand and very much welcome that an order has been placed to purchase a new military transport aircraft. It is being assembled on an assembly line in Spain at the moment but it will not be here for 15 months. Is it the Tánaiste's understanding that that new aircraft will have the capability to deploy pallets mid-air in the future? If it is not the case, would the Tánaiste consider including that in the tender? It is very important that as the direction of travel geopolitically on the planet at the moment is very un-reassuring that this is a capability that Ireland should certainly try to acquire as soon as possible. I thank the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

Firstly, I agree with much of what Deputy Berry has said. By way of quick reply, we are actively exploring the possibility of Ireland contributing to this multinational effort and Jordan, in particular, has been leading this in organising air-drops. I spoke to Foreign Minister Safadi on this a week or two ago and I specifically asked questions on this. We speak a great deal on other issues. We are now actively engaged with Jordan. It is not an issue of our technical capacity or anything like that. Jordan obviously has much experience interlocuting with the Israeli Government on the airspace there and the Deputy will understand the issues which arise there. We are working in partnership with Jordan and are actively exploring that.

What is important is that that should not distract from Israel's obligations. The most effective and only way to really get meaningful volumes of aid through is through the corridors, to open up the checkpoints, to open up Gaza and to allow far more trucks to get in on the ground than are getting in at the moment.

At the European Union, we have done about 41 air bridges but that is via Egypt. Janez Lenarčič, the European Commissioner for Crisis Managerment is a fine Commissioner. He might forgive my pronunciation at times on that but he has been very proactive in trying to get humanitarian aid into Gaza. I have met with and have discussed this with him and the centrality of UNRWA in getting that aid across. While there are air-drops in some countries other than these we are working with Jordan, are exploring this and will be supporting it in that respect. Of that the Deputy can be certain.

We are also very conscious that these cannot be used as an excuse for other actions as one does not get the same volume. There are also operational issues in getting the aid to people once it is dropped. Nonetheless, it is vital in northern Gaza, for example, where the UN agencies are not working, are not able to get in, are not effective and are not getting the stuff through. Really, it is about the opening up on a full-time basis of the border to allow for more trucks to get through.

On the capability question and a new C295W aircraft, which I believe is what the Deputy was referring to, that will be capable of transporting and deploying palletised cargo from the air and it can be configured with the required cargo handling system. It is equipped with a rear cargo door which can then be opened in flight. The aircraft avionics system is also capable of being programmed with the various parameters to allow for the accuracy required with aerial delivery operations.

The considerations are more on the, dare I say it, political or practical level in working with the Jordanian Government on the specifics of getting aid in and in whatever we can do to get aid in through that route, in terms of Ireland's purchase and support.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I very much agree with the Tánaiste and Deputy Cairns that the key is to get a ceasefire and to get the volume of aid through. I commend the King of Jordan. He is a former paratrooper and a former special forces officer. It is unusual that a Head of State would have that background. He knows what he is talking about. Doubling down on what Deputy Cairns said, perhaps we could do something practical, perhaps even flying food out to Jordan and then leaving it on the runway in order that another nation could drop that food in on our behalf. That is certainly worth considering. I am glad that consideration is being given to this, and we should do as much as possible from a practical point of view to assist the people on the ground.

Micheál Martin

I will come back to the Deputies generally when that progresses somewhere, but it is being actively pursued by the Irish Government with the Jordanian Government. I met with the King when I was in Jordan recently. He and the Jordanian Government are very appreciative of the role Ireland has taken internationally at the various forums, particularly within the European Union.

In response to earlier questions, the mood within Europe has changed. Last week, 26 countries were prepared to have sanctions against violent and extreme settlers. Only one country objected, namely, Hungary. Earlier there was a question about travel bans. We hope to do travel bans and asset freezes, but it would be better if we could get the EU 27 on board, so we will make one final effort at the next FAC to get full agreement. An asset freeze would be far more effective than a travel ban for some of these individuals who are doing terrible things in the West Bank in displacing Palestinian communities, schools and so forth.

As Deputy Berry noted, the King of Jordan has a great deal of experience. It is interesting that the Deputy said that because the King discussed issues like that with me when I met him when I was last in Jordan in December.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I wish to raise the serious predicament in which many farmers find themselves as a result of continuous pressure from the Green Party Ministers in the Government. The first thing is the proposed 25% reduction in emissions, resulting in a cull of 200,000 cows by 2030. Then there is the cost of carbon tax. Then we have the Chinese boasting that they will be increasing their herd by over 1 million cows this year.

The nature restoration Bill was passed in the EU Parliament on 27 February and was supported by all Government MEPs, including our local MEPs, Seán Kelly and Billy Kelleher. This was very disappointing. This Bill sets out that 20% of our land and sea areas must be taken out of food production and rewet by 2030. This could mean that homes could be flooded. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, is very concerned and says that this was not thought out properly. This will also affect smaller farmers in areas on the western seaboard areas like south and north Kerry that benefit from the provisions of the Arterial Drainage Act 1945 and grant-aided schemes and from their own hard work, their own sweat and blood. They slaved to make their places productive. Now, in one fell swoop, all their work will be nullified and wiped out. This is all because of the Green Party's agenda and the Government's lust and quest for power.

The reduction in the nitrates derogation demanded by the EU, which our Government did not defend properly, means many farmers will have to cut production or cull cows because they cannot rent buy or additional land. It is too expensive. Small farmers will not be viable. I know one farmer who will have to reduce the number of cows in his herd from 58 to 48. It will not be viable for him to continue. Why is the same focus of attention not being placed on local authorities and Irish Water, which is also polluting streams and rivers all over the country as many treatment plants are overburdened? Several treatment plants in Kerry need improvements and sewerage extensions. In addition, treatment plants need to be built in areas where there are none.

I attended a meeting in Moyvane last Friday night where more than 200 people launched their local development plan. The whole thing hinges on a new treatment plant or the present-day treatment plant being extended. They are pleading and begging for a treatment plant to be placed in Moyvane. Suckler farmers and beef bull breeders are deeply upset after building up efficient, sustainable breeds. All that work is compromised following the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation's changes to star ratings, demoting Charolais and Limousin and promoting Dexters. Many farmers have been disallowed from claiming back VAT in respect of much-needed improvements on their farms. Those who want to build extra slurry storage cannot even get planning. We have the most sustainable and efficient system of producing beef and dairy in the whole world. It is a fresh grass-based system.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. You will have a chance to come back in.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising these issues. More generally, food production is essential. In the context of climate change, the resilience of our food production system and food security are absolutely essential. Rather than undermining our food production system, we will increase it. Tá géarghá ann an córas a threisiú agus a dhéanamh níos láidre. In that context, as the Deputy knows, we, including the Minister for agriculture, work with the farming community. The Deputy knows about the €1.5 billion in the flagship agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, which was developed by the Minister. What is interesting about that is that there is exceptional demand for it, with about 46,000 applications from farmers who wanted to be part of that and taken into tranche 1. The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, announced yesterday that all of the more than 9,000 applicants for tranche 2 of the scheme will be accepted, bringing the total number of participants in ACRES now to approximately 55,000 farmers. What that shows is that farmers are up for engaging with the Government to do the right thing.

I visited Timoleague last year. There was a project there, in a catchment area that includes Kilbrittain, Timoleague, Barryroe and other places, to monitor the situation as regards nitrates. That initiative showed the degree to which farmers were facilitating research on their farms in terms of water quality, subsoil types and so on. It was an education for me to be there. I listened to Philip Boucher-Hayes on the "CountryWide" programme last Saturday morning. An eloquent farmer from north Cork, near the border with Kerry, outlined a similar project and said that he regards himself as a guardian of the landscape and how, from a nature perspective, it is important for food production that there is good husbandry of the land, that the land is protected and that biodiversity is important to food production.

Sometimes the impression is given that farmers are against this and against that. Many farmers understand this and the need to ensure for the long term a food production system that will not undermine biodiversity and prepares us to enable us to adapt to climate change. Climate change is happening; the Deputy might have a different view. I have been in Galway and elsewhere, and the flooding that has happened is damaging food production systems. We have to adapt, and some of the ways of adapting are natural methods of adaptation. That is why healthy ecosystems matter for food and food security. It is also why the Deputy needs to be more balanced as regards the nature restoration law, because there are many positives that could come out of that law. It will take time, obviously, to implement. Its impact will not be immediate, but the law could be a positive in making sure we have a sustainable food production system for the long term.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

Some farmers in the Golden Vale and places like that will survive. The places I am talking about have poorer soils. Many smaller farmers are going to be wiped out. What they cannot understand is - and we are all under the one sky - how the Chinese can increase their dairy herd by 1 million cows this year alone and how countries in South America can also increase the size of their herds and can cut down the Amazon forest. How is it that all that is happening under the same sky? The Chinese can increase the size of their herd and everything is grand once our dreamer of a Minister, Deputy Ryan, is happy. Our carbon footprint will be down and that of the Chinese will be up. That will be fine.

The fishing industry is almost gone - it has been nearly wiped out - because of inaction. Agriculture is next.

When farmers have to cut back so much, their business is no longer viable and they cannot stay on the land. It is a struggle at present. What has been done to farmers' sons and daughters in recent days? The category of licence for driving a tractor has been changed. They say you must have an articulated lorry licence to drive a tractor or do certain types of work. Will these lads be able to do the driving test on a tractor and get an articulated lorry licence for it? If the authorities are demanding they must have articulated lorry licences in order to drive tractors, will they be allowed to do the test on tractors?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are over time, and we are on the wrong road.

The Tánaiste

The fishing industry is not gone at all.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is on its last legs.

The Tánaiste

Obviously, Brexit had an impact. Agriculture is certainly not gone. If you look at us in the context of our relationship with most countries and if you look at the export table, all you will see is a rise in Irish exports of agricultural produce. For example, China has imported Irish milk and dairy products for quite some time.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

There will not be any more. They are out of it now.

The Tánaiste

They will be. Saying it is dead and gone is an exaggeration.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

It is not an exaggeration; it is the truth.

The Tánaiste

It is exaggeration.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, please.

The Tánaiste

The bottom line is that beef is also being exported to China. Anywhere I have been as Minister for Foreign Affairs, I have invariably been accompanied by someone from Bord Bia with new product lines and interested in exporting to new markets. We need a bit of balance and proportion.

I take the Deputy's point with regard to the farmers in the his area. In the context of the new Common Agricultural Policy and the next one, we need to support farmers in disadvantaged areas, which the ACRES scheme does, as well as other schemes, including those relating to biodiversity. I would increase the funding of those schemes. The carbon tax was introduced to allow us to give ring-fenced funding to farming. This means that if, for example, someone has to protect a rare species on their land, they will be adequately compensated-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There is no fund to insure-----

The Tánaiste

-----not just for one or two years, but for a long time. This is so that we can protect our biodiversity. It is about getting incomes to farmers, which we are determined to do.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The farmers will be a rare species.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

The Tánaiste says he travels the world. He does, but he would want to travel a bit more around his own country, his own county of west Cork and Kerry as well. He should stay at home a bit more and maybe he would know a bit more about what is going on.

The Tánaiste

I have been to Kerry. The Deputy knows I have been to County Kerry a great deal. I will see him in Killarney.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies and Tánaiste, please.