Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Tuesday, 28 Feb 2023

Integration and Refugee Issues: Discussion (Resumed)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Deputy Gannon is substituting for Deputy Cairns this week. I welcome him to the committee. Apologies have been received from Deputies Funchion and Sherlock and Senator McGreehan. The agenda for consideration this afternoon is engagement with stakeholders regarding integration and refugee issues.

From Nasc, we are joined by Mr. Brian Collins, advocacy service manager. From the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, we are joined by Ms Edel McGinley, director, and Mr. Neil Bruton, campaigns co-ordinator. From the Irish Refugee Council, IRC, we have Mr. Nick Henderson, chief executive officer, and Ms Wendy Muperi, communications officer. With us from the Cultúr Migrants Centre, CMC, are Mr. Reuben Hambakachere, community development worker, and Mr. Archibald Mathibela, project officer. They are all very welcome.

Before we start, I will go through some normal housekeeping matters. I advise everyone that the chat function on MS Teams should only be used to make the team on site aware of technical issues or urgent matters that may arise and not to make general statements or comments during the meeting. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate who is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members partaking via MS Teams, prior to making their contributions, to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

In advance of inviting our guests to deliver their opening statements, I wish to advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. Witnesses participating from the committee room are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For our witnesses appearing before us virtually, I must point out that there is uncertainty over whether parliamentary privilege applies to evidence given from a location outside the parliamentary precincts of Leinster House. If they are directed to cease giving evidence regarding a particular matter, therefore, it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Five minutes speaking time will be allocated for each opening statement. We will then go to questions and answers with members. This completes our housekeeping. I invite Mr. Collins to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Brian Collins

I thank the committee for inviting us to address these critical issues. Nasc is an NGO and a charity that works with people seeking protection, refugees, migrants and their families, to realise and fulfil their rights. Nasc runs a free advocacy service that supports more than 1,300 people annually and we deliver outreach to the direct provision, DP, centres throughout the county of Cork. Nasc operates a dedicated Ukrainian language phone line service. Nasc was also a member of the working group on direct provision and the protection process, a member of the advisory group established to develop national standards for direct provision and the Catherine Day advisory group.

We welcome that the committee is examining these issues now. Figures from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, indicate that, as of 19 February 2023, there have been 73,000 arrivals from Ukraine to Ireland with an estimated 63,585 people still living in our communities. In addition, over 13,000 applicants for international protection came to our shores seeking safe haven in 2022. It is not news to anyone in this room that accommodation is now the most critical issue. While it is clear that the relevant Government agencies have been working tirelessly to source accommodation, these efforts have unfortunately fallen short, and we find ourselves in a situation where some applicants for international protection are being left to sleep in the street. This is unprecedented; it is a breach of the law and of our moral obligation to people who may have experienced torture and trauma before making their way to Ireland for safety. This accommodation crisis is an opportunity to plan for a better system and we must take this opportunity. We note that over 5,000 residents of DP have legal permission to be in Ireland and additional resources need to be put in place to support people moving from DP once they have their status.

Unfortunately, we have seen that far-right elements are becoming more prominent as they seek to exploit genuine concerns which communities may have in respect of services, including those relating to schools, GPs, etc. Communities need to be engaged and resourced to deal with refugees arriving in their areas, where appropriate. We believe the Government needs to be careful in the language used when speaking about these issues and should demonstrate leadership and compassion towards those who arrive to Ireland seeking protection. Refugees have been living in direct provision centres all over Ireland for over 20 years, so this is not a new phenomenon. Refugees enrich our communities. It is important that we push back against those who deliberately seek to misrepresent refugees and sow fear and division.

In the background, we have seen that the commitment to end direct provision has slipped from the political agenda. Nasc recently published a report authored by Dr. Liam Thornton and Dr. Abayomi Ogunsanya entitled Ending Direct Provision? February 2021-September 2022: A Review of the Implementation of the White Paper on Ending Direct Provision, which evidences the lack of progress in implementation. As of 5 February last, there were 19,741 people accommodated in the international protection accommodation service, IPAS, system as a whole. Of this total, 4,096 were children. We have heard direct testimonies from residents of direct provision, time and again, that make it clear that our for-profit, institutional model of reception fails to respect their human dignity. We submit that as we see an increase in the numbers of people come to Ireland seeking protection, this is the time to redouble efforts to ensure that a further cohort of children does not end up growing up in this system. We recommend that resources are urgently put in place to deliver on the White Paper on ending direct provision and we seek an updated timeline for implementation of the recommendations in the White Paper.

In the meantime, there are some simple things that can be done to improve the standard of living in direct provision. Extending child benefit to children living in the system and ensuring that, where possible, cooking facilities are available, would be helpful. We recommend that HIQA is mandated to inspect emergency accommodation for international protection applicants, as well as direct provision centres, to ensure that their oversight is meaningful and effective. In terms of the international protection determination procedure, we are concerned that some recent changes at the International Protection Office, IPO, the first-instance decision-making body, may mean that persons from deemed-safe countries may find it difficult, if not impossible, to access legal support prior to the substantive interviews relating to their claims. We recommend that the practical impact of these regulations be carefully monitored.

Turning to those fleeing Ukraine, while the overall response of the Government and the Irish community is to be commended, Nasc is concerned by the varying standards of accommodation available to beneficiaries of temporary protection. There appears to be a lack of oversight and accountability when problems emerge and there is a real need for standards and a clear complaints mechanism in this area. We also recommend that HIQA is mandated to carry out inspections of accommodation for beneficiaries of temporary protection. The issue of availability of accommodation is ongoing and will require careful planning to ensure that we can continue to meet the needs of those who arrive.

In summary, while this is undoubtedly a very challenging time for the relevant agencies, it is critical that we meet our legal and moral obligations to those who arrive to our shores seeking safety. It is also an opportunity to plan for and implement a better reception system in line with the White Paper on ending direct provision.

I thank members and we would be happy to answer any questions on the opening statement and the submission.

Ms Edel McGinley

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to come before them today. I am the director of the MRCI. I am joined by Mr. Neil Bruton, who is our campaigns co-ordinator.

For more than 20 years, MRCI has been working with migrant workers in precarious and low-wage sectors of the labour market. We work with people coming to Ireland to care for our loved ones, people to work on farms and keep meat processing factories running, those who take on the dangerous work in the fishing industry, people who help in kitchens in restaurants and those who clean hotel rooms and keep Irish hospitality running, among others. Last year, we provided more than 4,500 casework supports and information to people from 119 different nationalities. Our work focuses on the intersection of immigration and the labour market.

We are here to ask the committee to take action on some targeted and concrete integration measures. We call on the committee to ensure that an approach is adopted that supports the integration of the entire immigrant population in Ireland.

Integration is about ensuring that people who make Ireland home enjoy the same experience and set of basic rights as everybody else. Equality of rights are key indicators of integration. Key sites of integration include employment, education, health, housing and social and political participation.

I want to highlight significant structural barriers to integration for thousands of people coming to work in Ireland through the employment permits system. Almost 40,000 employment permits were issued in 2022. Net migration stood at 61,100 in April 2022. The migrant pay gap stood at 22% less an hour than Irish nationals. Over the past 18 months, the Government has extended general employment permits to care and home care workers, meat workers, construction workers, healthcare assistants, haulage drivers, dairy workers, and bus and coach drivers. This trend is set to continue.

Integration must be about protecting people from exploitation in their work and ensuring workers have the ability to stand up for their rights. Integration must be about ensuring workers have their family with them and that those family members have their basic set of rights met too. However, Ireland continues to operate an unfair two-tier employment permit system and does not provide the same rights to everyone coming here to work. Workers recruited into essential jobs on general employment permits cannot freely change employers for five years, which leads to poor standards and exploitation. It is also very hard for general employment permit holders to bring family here and, even if they can, there is no right for those family members to work. This is in stark contrast to workers on critical skills employment permits who can work in any job after two years and can bring their family immediately - and those family members have the right to work. Why is a person who provides care for our loved ones or puts food on our tables treated differently to an IT developer or an engineer? If we do not act, we are going to create division and conflict in workplaces.

We ask that the committee to write to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment in support of the introduction of a simple and flexible notification process that would allow employment permit holders to easily change employers, as part of the Employment Permits Bill currently going through the Dáil. We also ask the committee to write to the Ministers for Justice and Enterprise, Trade and Employment calling for immediate family reunion rights for all workers on employment permits and to call for the right to work for family members of all employment permit holders. This should be part of the interdepartmental working group that commences this year.

In tandem wit this, integration must be about ensuring that all members of society have access to adequate resources and that there is a planned and whole-of-government approach to deliver in this regard. The strongest defence against attempts to polarise and cause division by far-right actors is strong community leadership and resilience. Unfortunately, the decimation of the community sector has led to fragmented approaches and responses across the country to long-term integration. The Government must seek an approach to equip local communities to respond effectively to support all people who are newly arriving to Ireland and those who have been living here for some time. Right now, we need strong engagement and problem-solving across all sectors, brave political leadership, progressive State policies and community-led solidarity to respond to people who want to divide us. This includes Government and political communications that avoid repeating and feeding far-right narratives but centres progressive narratives, which are reinforced by progressive policies that advance equality, rights and inclusion.

We ask the committee to write to the Taoiseach to ask him to develop a new and whole-of-government approach in the context of the rapid accommodation of people seeking refuge and to engage communities as core stakeholders, conducting resource analysis and centring rapid planning processes. We ask the committee to write to the Taoiseach to appoint a national lead to drive an emergency response to people seeking refuge in Ireland. In addition, we ask the committee to write to the Taoiseach to urgently rebuild the community sector and critical community work approaches by re-establishing a national community development programme across the country to engage host and new communities on issues that affect their lives.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I invite Mr. Nick Henderson of the Irish Refugee Council to deliver the opening statement.

Mr. Nick Henderson

My colleague, Ms Wendy Muperi, will read the statement, if that is okay.

Mr. Wendy Muperi

I appreciate the invitation to present before this committee. The Irish Refugee Council is a 30-year-old charity that supports and advocates for people seeking protection and refugees in Ireland. We give people information and legal representation. We have housing, education, youth work and employment programmes. We also advocate for changes and improvements to the asylum process. In 2022, we gave direct and substantial support to more than 11,000 people, received more than 5,000 email queries and answered more than 24,000 calls to our helplines.

How should we think about refugee integration? A recent large-scale study of integration that took place in the UK broke integration down in to the following helpful headings, which may be useful when framing this discussion. It set out five domains under the heading of "Markers and Means", which are work, housing, education, health and social care, and leisure.

These domains represent the context in which integration can take place, as well as major areas of attainment that are widely recognised as critical to the integration process. There are three domains within the framework under the heading "Social Connections", which are social bridges, social bonds and social links. These recognise the importance of relationships to our understanding of the integration process and elaborate different kinds of relationships that contribute to integration. The study identified five facilitators, which are language, culture, digital skills, safety and stability. These represent key facilitating factors for the process of integration. There is one domain within the framework under the heading "Foundation", which is rights and responsibilities. This represents the basis upon which mutual expectations and obligations that support the process of integration are established. Perhaps we can also add particular building blocks or considerations to refugees. These include for, example, trauma, family links, length of time spent in the process and the situation in the person’s country of origin.

I move to our recommendations. What is the current state of refugee integration? It is worth emphasising that 2022 was an exceptional year. More than 70,000 people have arrived in Ireland in the last year. More than ever, an effective refugee integration strategy is needed. Our recommendations and ideas are as follows. The first concerns integration strategy and departmental capacity. The State has an integration strategy but it is gathering dust. It should be revised and renewed, particularly to take into account the developments of the last year. The capacity and resources of the Department responsible for children should be boosted to develop this.

Our recommendations also concern the relationship between time spent in the asylum process and integration from day one. While time spent in the asylum process is decreasing, the median processing time for cases processed to completion in 2022 was 18 months. Some studies have identified an integration window. Actions that are targeted and occur soon after arrival have disproportionately positive effects. The State’s previous integration strategy did not consider people still in the asylum process.

Concerning housing and transition from direct provision, nearly 4,000 people have status and can in theory leave direct provision but cannot do so in practice. This, in our experience, seriously inhibits a person from moving on with their life in Ireland.

Obtaining citizenship can provide a considerable boost to someone’s integration prospects. Efforts to try to streamline the State’s citizenship processes in recent years are welcome.

On crisis recovery, the asylum process is currently under considerable stress. Until and unless we recover from this situation, in our October 2022 paper on this crisis we recommended the guiding principles should be as follows. The first concerns safeguarding and protection of basic human rights. The IRC is deeply concerned by plummeting standards in protection accommodation. It is essential that health and safety, child protection and reception conditions rights are protected. Second, ensure adequate resources for Departments, services, NGOs and communities. The third concerns personnel. Support is also needed for medical, education and other services across the country. Fourth is the need for greater communication with people seeking protection, the public and communities. Finally, ensure existing recommendations are implemented. There are multiple reports where many of the recommendations and ideas remain unimplemented.

I thank members for listening to our opening remarks and we look forward to answering questions.

Mr. Reuben Hambakachere

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I am a community development and youth worker with Cultúr Migrant Centre and am joined by my colleague, Archibald Mathibela. I speak on behalf of the Cultúr Migrant Centre staff and board, but informed by my lived experience In direct provision, DP, and the work I have been involved in since I left the protection process. Cultúr is a regional community work organisation, working across counties Meath and Louth with 19 years’ experience of working with ethnic minorities, including migrant workers, international protection applicants and refugees, to promote integration in the area. Cultúr uses a community work approach to engage with migrant communities. We work with the migrants to become agents of social change by creating conditions that allow people affected by issues to become part of developing the solutions. Our direct work with migrants includes supporting people in DP to exit smoothly to independent living and providing programmes that support people to return to education, training and employment. We deliver national and EU projects that support activities and programmes for migrants, international protection applicants and Ukrainian refugees living in Meath, Louth, Cavan and surrounding areas. Our expertise is informed by lived experience and years of delivering tailored supports to migrant communities living in the midlands region. We pride ourselves on being one of the few migrant-led organisations working at grassroots level to deliver to groups who are often left out or have difficulty in accessing mainstream services.

I will turn to the matter at hand, integration and refugees. Cultúr is concerned by the process introduced on 8 November last year by the International Protection Office when it started accelerating applications. Individuals who seek protection must do a preliminary interview and complete the questionnaire on the day they apply to the IPO. Previously, applicants were able to submit the questionnaire by mail within two weeks and had time to get legal advice and gather information. This change means applicants have no opportunity to get legal advice prior to submitting the questionnaire, which is used as a reference document throughout the entire process. We are concerned that applicants being rushed or put under such pressure will set them up for failure and lead to lengthy appeals processes. This will recreate problems that the Government has put significant investment into solving through the regularisation scheme proposed by the NGO alliance, whose members include Cultúr.

Last year there was a formal review of Ireland's asylum process to identify how it can be improved and shortened. The review recommended more investment in legal support to reduce the amount of appeals, employing and training more international protection officers and investing in digital infrastructure. We asked the committee to approach the IPO to implement these recommendations. Instead of reducing legal support, to improve the asylum process, resources should be allocated carefully and not wasted on practices that have been proven to fail in the past.

While most families are cushioned by the cost-of-living packages announced last week, the weekly expenses allowance remains at €38.80 for an adult and €29.80 for a child. Social welfare payments must provide an adequate safety net to lift people out of poverty, particularly considering increases to essentials such as rents, energy and heating costs and food prices. Even though the above-mentioned costs are not all directly applicable to people living in direct provision, families and individuals in DP are hit by inflation as the rising prices are passed on to affect all consumer goods. The people in DP should not be overlooked in the social welfare spring bonus. Even better would be a structural increase.

To help families in DP struggling to meet essential costs and prevent children going without, Cultúr asks the committee to consider recommending the following immediate responses to the Government: review the DP allowance in line with current inflation rates, extend the cost-of-living package to people seeking protection and introduce the universal child benefit to families and children in direct provision.

Cultúr notes the rise in hate and intolerance towards minorities in Ireland taking place through extremism, street protests targeting minorities, street violence, online hate speech and physical and verbal attacks targeting minorities. This manifests in people from minority groups, such as migrants, refugees, asylum seekers, LGBT+ people and Travellers, being targeted because of their identities.

This is causing significant stress and harm to members of ethnic minority groups. Without a national plan against racism, Ireland continues to operate without equality strategies that have measurable impacts built in. Equality data can help us analyse where needs are most acute and what impact interventions are having. We are calling on the Government to progress the national action plan against racism and to ensure it is accompanied by resources for community organisations to support the implementation and monitoring of the plan.

I also use this opportunity to remind the House that everyone has the right to seek and enjoy protection. However, the Cultúr Migrant Centre believes the experiences of many in the international protection process are far from this truth. I thank the committee for this opportunity and am open to answering any questions from the members.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will open up to questions now as per the speaking rota order. I take the opportunity to remind members when putting their questions, that they should adhere to the agenda item schedule for discussion. We will allocate members five minutes' speaking time, which is down from our usual seven minutes, but it is a shorter meeting due to the select committee earlier. If everyone sticks to time - which nobody every does - we will be able to get a second round in. We will do our best to get around to the second round.

Deputy Mark Ward

I was not expecting to be first.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There are a couple of speakers ahead of the Deputy but they have not made it in yet.

Deputy Mark Ward

I welcome all the witnesses today and thank them for their opening contributions. It was good information for me. I am from Clondalkin and in my area we have - and I use this term lightly - one of the more successful direct provisions centres. When I say successful, I mean successful in relation to how the people and the residents there have integrated into my community. They are part of the local football teams which I manage, and are involved in Tidy Towns. They have really enriched our community and are very welcome. The lads are there for more than a decade now and they came in when we did not have the same level of misinformation, or as was mentioned, the existence of other actors out there spreading hate and disinformation. I am delighted because it goes to show what can happen in communities such as my own. When the centre was being closed down, members of my community went out and rallied behind the people in the direct provision centre to keep them there because its residents were a part of our community. The issues were not at same level as we have now. I meet residents on a regular basis. As I think was mentioned, there are 5,000 people at present who have legal status and a right to remain but they cannot move out of direct provision because of the current housing crisis. What seems to be coming up when speaking to residents is that they feel they are being unduly pressurised to move out of direct provision and into homeless accommodation. I will not mention the name but will give the example of one person who received the right to remain status in the past year. That person was successful in getting onto the local authority list. You would think that when you get the right to remain, things would get better. Actually, this person feels that things have got worse because they feel they are being put under undue pressure to go into homeless accommodation. Are the witnesses aware of this happening in other direct provision centres across the State? What advice can I give to these people when they are facing these pressures?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does anyone want to respond first or would any particular organisation like to answer that?

Mr. Nick Henderson

There are now so many direct provision centres that it is difficult to give an answer representative of them all. There has been an increased pressure on people who have remain status to move on and move out. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has just issued a new tender to organisations to give people advice and information about how they can move out but in our experience - our housing programme has been running for the last five years - we are almost at the point where we have had to stop casework to advise people. The prospect of moving out is so low, the work is better placed on trying to change the structural issues that prevent people from moving out.

Deputy Mark Ward

In the past when I was trying to help people in that situation, there did not seem to be the same amount of pressure that is being put on people now to move out. We all know there was nowhere for people to go; they could not find anywhere. They were able to access homeless housing assistance payment, HAP, for example, when in direct provision but even with that, they still could not find anywhere because of the scarcity of accommodation. Over the past while, and most of this is from anecdotal evidence, residents are finding they are being put under undue pressure to move into homeless accommodation which is probably a step down from the direct provision accommodation, which is not great to begin with. Is there any advice I can give those people? Are there advocacy groups that can help people in that situation?

Mr. Reuben Hambakachere

We are currently working with people who live in the midlands region and the advice we are giving them is to stay there until the can find somewhere to go. From our experience, we noticed that some people moved out hurriedly and when they got out, they started struggling and wished to go back in. It is better to make the right decision and move out when one is able to. Also, it is not easy to get out. It is not easy for many people who have lived in the centres for a long time. It is quite a process because some of them have become institutionalised and that has to be taken into consideration. They cannot be just driven out without actually providing the wraparound supports and the step-by-step guides for people to come out and integrate successfully within Irish communities. From talking to other community organisations, it seems the approach of the other groups supporting people right across the country may be same as ours. We want to support people to exit smoothly out of direct provision and that process is taking much longer than it used to in the past. We just provide the information and also help people to secure accommodation.

Deputy Mark Ward

I will name the group this time rather than just throwing the question open to everyone. I have a question for the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. Its representatives raised the disparity that exists between work permits and touched on the fact that workers are given general permits for essential work but cannot change employer for five years, which could lead to exploitation. I know the organisation had two questions which it asked we raise directly with the Minister. Has the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland itself written to the Ministers in the relevant Departments, and if so, what response did it get at that stage?

Mr. Neil Bruton

Yes, we have indeed. As part of the committee looking at the Employment Permits Bill which is currently going through the Dáil, we made a strong request for change of employer to be introduced as part of that Bill. A commitment on Committee Stage was given by the former Minister of State, Deputy English. A commitment was made at that point to introduce an amendment that would look at being able to transfer employers, that is, a change of employer amendment. We are eagerly anticipating seeing that amendment on Report Stage and seeing the details to make sure it is a real, simple, flexible way for people to change employer.

Deputy Mark Ward

Does you know where that process is at the moment? I am not a member of that committee so am not aware of where that legislation is at the moment.

Mr. Neil Bruton

The next stage is Report Stage and we are hoping that will be around the end of March or April sort of time. As for our other two asks, they require a collaboration between the Department of Justice and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment because they require the granting of a stamp. For example, family reunion would involve the granting of a visa or stamp to family members. Similarly, with the right to work for spouses or family members of someone on a work permit, they would need to be granted a stamp to allow them to work. That requires a collaboration and that is why we are asking that the committee writes to both Ministers so that the Departments would look at that point in their interdepartmental working group, which we believe is starting in March.

Deputy Mark Ward

I will keep an eye on that so.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

There are a couple of things on which I have specific questions. Mr. Collins referred in his opening comments to HIQA. I missed the context in which he referred to HIQA inspections being required. I ask the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland specifically about an issue that has come up in my own constituency work in the past few months. I represent Carlow and Kilkenny. I have come across families who came to work in Ireland with work permits.

They are experiencing grave economic difficulties because their children want to go to third level but they are regarded as overseas students. As a result, they are having to pay full fees. It is one of those issues that until it was brought to my attention, I had not given much thought to. Have our guests encountered this issue? Has any lobbying been done with the higher education sector or with departmental officials in relation to trying to clear up that anomaly? In most cases we are talking about families that have been here for many years and about children who have spent most of their lives living in Ireland.

I also wanted to ask Ms Muperi or Mr. Hambakachere about the engagement that they may or may not have had with local communities. We are all very familiar with some of the right wing stuff and the protests that have happened recently. Mr. Collins referenced in his opening remarks that direct provision has been in Ireland for 20 years. One of the first centres was opened in my own area and there was a feeling at the time that there was no interaction with anybody. The centre arrived and there were no wraparound services but that was 20 years ago. Have we moved on from that? What level of engagement do our guests have in their daily work with local communities? What I find is that the majority of people who are protesting or who have issues are not racist. The issue is a lack of information. They are being used by people who have an ulterior motive. As with everything, when a vacuum exists, people will fill it and some of the people who have come in from across the Irish Sea and other places to stir up hate are doing just that and are able to do so because of a lack of knowledge.

In my own area in Kilkenny, a new centre was opened in the last week. No information of any description was given to public representatives until literally the day before it was due to happen. There is a sense among local communities of a fear of the unknown. It is a failure of the political system, not of our guests, that we have not really adapted our migration policy in Ireland to cope with larger numbers, even leaving aside the fact that the numbers have really spiralled in the last 12 months or more, for obvious reasons.

Mr. Brian Collins

Regarding the reference to HIQA, we understand that the authority has been given the power to inspect direct provision centres proper. However, a lot of people are living in emergency accommodation including in hotels and bed and breakfast establishments but HIQA is not going to be given the power to inspect those premises, as far as we understand. The regulations are being prepared at the moment. For us, that is quite a big gap and is quite concerning given the number of people that live in emergency accommodation. That is on the international protection side of things but it also applies to temporary protection beneficiaries. They are living in over 500 settings across the country at the moment and we would like to see HIQA having the power to inspect those. Obviously there would be resource implications for that but we are hearing lots of anecdotal reports of serious problems with accommodation, a lack of a clear complaints mechanism and difficulties with getting a response when complaints are made, due to the scale of the number of places where people are living.

Mr. Neil Bruton

On the international fees question, our ethos is that equal treatment equals integration. We talked about changing employer, having one's family with one, having the right to work and we would certainly put the right to education in with that as well. We share the Deputy's frustration and we get it a lot as well. In particular we have seen it recently with the regularisation scheme that granted stamp 4 status to families, including people who are at the age at which they would be going to university, but they cannot go because they cannot afford the fees. We would echo the Deputy's frustrations and that is something we would love to see changed.

Mr. Reuben Hambakachere

With reference to the question on community engagement, I would say that change is incremental. In the period in the past to which the Deputy referred, Ireland was a multicultural society and we are now moving towards being an intercultural society. Culture has also created opportunities for the migrant communities that we work with to engage with local communities. We host a number of events every year to enable the host community to meet the migrants that we work with. We host an Africa day every year, an anti-racism day, in March. Next week, on 8 March which is International Women's Day, we are inviting members of the community to meet migrants. We have also created a migrant forum which is a space for migrants to meet the host communities. We also deliver intercultural awareness training to service providers including members of An Garda Síochána who have just qualified from Templemore and who are moving into the Navan area. We also deliver that training to the HSE, including to front-line staff as well as to foster parent agencies and schools and colleges in the area.

We have developed resources to address the far right around the language used and how to respond to that. There is community engagement and there are opportunities for people who have come to Ireland from other cultures to interact with people from the host community. Relationships have improved, in my experience, including the relationship between our organisation and mainstream service providers.

Mr. Nick Henderson

Our experience over the past six months has been - and this is not to explain the lack of consultation - that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the International Protection Accommodation Services simply do not have time to communicate with communities. That is demonstrated by what we are currently seeing every day, which is homelessness among single men. The majority of single men are not being accommodated when they first arrive. The Citywest transit hub is at nearly triple its capacity. Ideally, however, there should be a process and a structure for engaging communities that is based on information, communication, resources and identifying and supporting community leaders.

Our experience of the last 20 years of direct provision is that Irish communities can be extremely powerful and can do amazing things but it is extremely difficult at the moment. That said, we would have hope. The Ireland For All communities that have emerged in Ballymun, Drimnagh and other parts of the country show that fundamentally, Irish communities are ready, despite all of the problems that exist, to help people but crisis recovery and getting a plan in place as soon as possible are really needed.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank everyone for coming in. It is so important that we speak about what we can do to help. As previous speakers have said, the lack of communication with communities is a real issue. I am from the Carlow Kilkenny area and 14 years ago in Carlow, we had a programme under which 78 Rohingyan refugees came to the county from two different camps in Bangladesh. I saw the local community get together, including St. Catherine's Community Centre, the Carlow County Development Partnership, local schools and colleges as well as numerous volunteers and like what others have said, the community itself was so powerful.

That is where there seem to be enormous challenges. I am of the view that people mean well. There is a lack of information available. I am constantly contacting the office of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. I contact the office every day. The staff tell me that it is short-staffed. That is not right. This is an enormous issue that I will be highlighting further. In fairness to those staff members, they are doing their best. The Minister faces big challenges in his Department. The office is short-staffed, which is a concern. It is something that we, as politicians, need to address. I am worried about it.

Mr. Collins spoke about direct provision, a process which we must all ensure can continue. In terms of simple things that can happen quickly, one measure would be to extend child benefit to children living in the system and ensuring, where possible, that cooking facilities are available. Mr. Collins also spoke about HIQA. These are things we should be looking at doing now. These are unprecedented times. No one in government has seen such times in the past. Perhaps one or two agencies need to take the lead. Are too many agencies trying to come together? As our guests know, there are often difficulties when one sector tries to get through to another. Perhaps our guests will come back to me on that point.

There has been an increase in the number of people seeking international protection. I want to ask about supports in that regard. When the systems are fast-tracked, are there an adequate number of translators? That was an issue that was brought to my attention recently. What does assistance look like for those with disabilities? Is there adequate support for those with intellectual disabilities or those who are hearing or vision impaired? What is being done for people with disabilities? Those people are our most vulnerable. What can we do to help them further?

We all want to work together in order to ensure that we look after everyone. It is crucial that the message goes out that Ireland is a very good place. While we never thought this situation would arise, we are where we are and we must ensure we work together so everyone is looked after.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does anyone want to come in on that point?

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Perhaps someone would respond to the point about those with disabilities.

Mr. Brian Collins

I will respond to the Deputy's question about translators. People have to submit a questionnaire to explain the full extent of their asylum claims. People usually have 20 working days to do that but they are now expected to submit a shorter document in English on the day they submit their applications. That is completed on site at the IPO. The issue is that people do not have the legal support to do that. We understand there are cultural mediators who are affiliated with the International Organization for Migration, IOM. They are able to provide some sort of support but are not able to provide legal advice that is tailored to somebody's claim. There could be a translation issue because the document being submitted is in English. There are often issues around equality with translation. There are issues in respect of particular dialects. There is a lack of an accreditation system around all of that. There could be an issue around the quality of the document that is submitted and is under file throughout the process. As far as I understand the situation, people do not receive a copy of the document that is put on their files unless it is requested by a solicitor. Applicants could probably write in and make such a request themselves but they need the wherewithal to do so and support to do it.

Perhaps Mr. Henderson will have a better answer to the Deputy's question about people with disabilities. There is a legal requirement to carry out a vulnerability assessment under the reception conditions regulations. To my understanding, that is not being carried out in any systematic way. In a previous job, I came across a woman who was wheelchair-bound and who had a lot of difficulties in direct provision. It was very challenging to rectify all of that. I am not sure if the vulnerability assessment is being carried out properly. That would be a breach of the law.

We would have concerns for people who are showing up and are not being given accommodation on the day. I do not know what kind of assessment of vulnerability is happening for those people who are being told we do not have accommodation and who may be street homeless for a while. That is concerning. Mr. Henderson may have something to add.

Mr. Nick Henderson

I do not have anything to add about the vulnerability assessment. On the question about refugee agencies, some of the feedback we have received when we have raised the point is that it would be too slow or time-consuming to set up and we would not get dividends within a year or a year and a half. However, in our crisis paper in October, we recommended the appointment of a refugee response director to oversee logistics, make contingency plans, co-ordinate between Departments and provide clear communication to the public. As an example, one thing that is deeply frustrating at the moment is that people who arrive in Ireland may not be offered accommodation and may become homeless. Other Departments are not supporting people and are not responding to us. We wrote a letter to the Departments of Justice; Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; and Housing, Local Government and Heritage, stating that not accommodating people was a breach of the law but if it is going to happen, they could take mitigating measures to support people by giving them information, by supporting homeless services in the Dublin area and by setting out clearly and in a language people would understand what their rights and entitlements are. We wrote those letters in mid-January and again in mid-February and have not received a response. We would imagine that would be a very easy thing for somebody to do. As RTÉ reported ten days ago, no Department has come forward with accommodation options for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That speaks for itself.

Ms Edel McGinley

The approach of the Department is playing out in public in the manifestation of the process in respect of how the Department is doing its work, the whole engagement strategy and the accommodation strategy. For almost a year, we have been calling for central co-ordination and for somebody to take the lead. That call has fallen on deaf ears in Government circles, across the Government and in the Taoiseach's office. It is exceptionally frustrating because we can see the manifestation of the lack of co-ordination and the lack of an emergency approach that has been taken in respect of this issue by the Government and the Department of the Taoiseach. It is incumbent on this committee to push for a whole-of-government approach, to support this Minister in the delivery of that approach and to push it forward. As Mr. Henderson said, nobody is coming forward and that is creating huge problems. We need a different approach now. That needs to be pushed at this point.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I thank our contributors. Their presentations were fascinating. I also thank them for their work over the past six months. I can only imagine the pressure they are under. My first question pertains to the asylum process in and of itself. Let us start from the basis that absolutely everybody has a right to come here seeking asylum. People come seeking asylum for a multitude of reasons but often fall into a one-size-fits-all model. Can our guests tell us about some of the complexities, in an immediate sense, for a person who comes here from a country that is seeking accession to the EU, for example, compared with people coming from a different part of the world?

I will also speak to the importance of advanced planning and the consequences when that has not taken place.

We seem to operate continuously as if we are surprised that we require vastly improved accommodation. In December, people were still being accommodated in tents, which is horrendous. We are surprised that our hotels want some rooms back for tourist season. Will the witnesses comment on how the blundering around that issue by the Department and the pressure that places on the witnesses' organisations and the people they represent? It is often spoken about in relation to the necessity for communication with communities, which we heard from both previous speakers. I talk about that quite a lot but I still do not know what best practice would look like. Do the witnesses have any examples or suggestions for best practice as regards consultation with communities in advance of an International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, centre opening up in their area? It is relevant to me but I am still on the fence about how that can be done effectively and ensuring everybody is safe.

Regarding the street protests we have seen recently, I possibly have a different view from some of the speakers before me, but there must be a line. We have seen a degree of the Garda being in an unenviable position and a degree of stand-offish approach, which I understand. However, there is a difference when, for example, the other night I witnessed people standing outside accommodation playing a siren with a mother and her young child inside. That is not protest. It is intimidation and it needs to be addressed. I am interested to hear the witnesses' perspective on where exactly the line is because there must be one.

Concerning pathways to regularisation, we have seen what I would say is the success of the regularisation programme that happened last year. It is unfathomable that it stops after six months. What different pathways to regularisation can be initiated with immediate effect? Perhaps the witnesses could make suggestions in that regard. It was also captured in the children's rights committee's report today.

My last question pertains to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. It seems to be under a huge amount of pressure but it is certainly not effective that all the responsibility falls on one Department. We call for a cross-departmental approach. I think all of us have made that call over recent months. Should we go further and call for a Minister with specific responsibilities so we have a sense of who is in charge of the specific issue of refugee integration?

Mr. Brian Collins

On the question about the complexity of the application process, it is a complex process and people need legal advice because they may not fully understand. Even in the public domain, there is quite a misunderstanding about the definitions. In a lot of the commentary online, people say there is no war in country X and ask why people are coming here, whereas the refugee definition is more nuanced than that, including race, religion, nationality, political opinion and membership of a particular social group. Sometimes, the individual applicant may not appreciate the full scope of his or her claim until he or she meets a lawyer. For example, the applicant may fear persecution based on religious or political reasons, but after a conversation with them over time, there may be an issue related to sexual orientation as well. The applicant may have had a fear of authority in their country of origin and a fear of disclosing that. It is about explaining the definition, building trust with the person and he or she bringing you through their narrative, which could expand his or her claim into something else.

Deputy Gary Gannon

A person who arrives and claims asylum on specific grounds is often not aware of his or her legal rights. Does the State sometimes at a later date weaponise the fact a person may not be aware of how to communicate that?

Mr. Brian Collins

If somebody does not have the right advice or does not have a good standard of interpretation when making the initial claim or filling out the initial form, misunderstandings and incorrect information can arise quite innocently.

Deputy Gary Gannon

That is what I was thinking.

Mr. Brian Collins

That person then goes through his or her substantive interview, which could be three to five hours long. It is then put to the applicant as what is called a credibility concern and he or she has an opportunity to respond, but the damage may have already been done at that point if the applicant has not had good legal advice or any legal advice at the start. The person is then in a position where his or her explanation at interview is given some consideration, but it may not outweigh what went before. Early legal advice is very important. The Deputy is right. It can crop up later and end up with somebody having a credibility concern around his or her case. The majority of unsuccessful cases are unsuccessful on credibility grounds. That is a fair statement. It is important and underscores the need for early legal advice. That is why we are concerned about the IPO process at the moment and filling out the questionnaire on the day.

Mr. Reuben Hambakachere

To what Mr. Collins said, in my opening statement I mentioned the lengthy appeal processes that occur when people are not advised and do not get any legal advice. Some form of orientation is required when a person arrives. If I walked through the door, came into the committee room and was asked to chair this committee, I would struggle, obviously. It does not matter what my literacy level is. I would struggle because I do not have the orientation. It is my first time in this space. A person arriving in Ireland today to seek protection is handed a form which becomes the basis of a legal document later on throughout the process, which is a problem. It is setting someone up for failure. The level of literacy and language the person is engaging with need to be considered. Also, people are coming from traumatised positions and they arrive before they can actually engage with the processes in Ireland. They first must receive medical attention before they engage with the processes. We saw that happen when Ukrainians arrived but many of the people who came through the international protection application system did not get that support. They filled in forms and went through the whole process, only realising later that they needed time to process what was happening to them. That is what we are looking at. It affects how the whole case goes, right up to the end. When people have legal advice and are supported from the beginning, I would imagine they have better outcomes.

Mr. Nick Henderson

On community engagement, it is important to start with the building blocks in place, which would be a national communications plan, which is totally absent, aimed at members of the public to explain why we offer people protection, where people are coming from and the decision-making process behind that. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, said several times that this is one of the greatest humanitarian emergencies Ireland has faced, but thereafter there is not much of a communications plan. Members of the public want to see that there is a distribution mechanism, if possible, for how and where people are accommodated. Someone living in Ballymun may look across south of the river and think, where are the refugee centres in south County Dublin? That is probably a fair comment. They may have better resources than a community that has been under-resourced and in poverty for so long.

As I said, it is around identifying community leaders. Town hall-style meetings are not successful, which we have seen in places like Oughterard. Capacity is also an issue. Is an audit done to identify school places, GP places, higher education, if necessary, and transport? Those things are not happening, as we said, because the Department simply does not have time to undertake those assessments. How would the community be engaged in the support process, which is likely to take years? Centres are opening but they are not closing because of the pressure that exists. It is probably worthwhile to do work on that. Community Work Ireland has examined it. It is worth doing work on this that identifies and explores best practice because it will be important going forward.

Mr. Reuben Hambakachere

On the issue of best practice, we need to revisit the integration strategy. I know it is not the best of strategies but it is coming to an end in 2023 and we need a review because that strategy does not include asylum seekers and refugees. We are starting from a point where the other Departments are not able to engage with it because asylum seekers and refugees are not in that integration strategy. We need to go back when we review that and look at the role of each Department in delivering the integration strategy. If something is not in it, it is going to be omitted. If we have asylum seekers and international protection applicants in that integration strategy, it will be much easier for me to go to another Department and say that it is its responsibility to deliver for a certain group.

Ms Edel McGinley

The Deputy asked about good practice. We are in uncharted territory. We need to look at emerging models. The models are kind of already happening at community level. That is in response to firefighting, unfortunately, but they are happening so we have to look at how they are emerging and to build on them. We are doing a piece of work around documenting some of those models.

On the right to protest, we have to protect the right to protest and civil disobedience but we have to balance that with how hate speech is emerging as well. We also have to be very careful around how things are policed because we are seeing a lot of women and children on some of these protests and in communities that are way over-policed anyway. We have to be careful in how we approach this area. I do not have the answer to all of that.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I suppose the question was framed as a statement that we would obviously protect the right to protest at absolutely all costs but there also has to be a line where we differentiate protest from intimidation. That is really important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think the Deputy has had enough time to contribute. I will ask Mr. Bruton to give us a quick answer so we can move on Senator Ruane, who has been waiting patiently.

Mr. Neil Bruton

Very quickly on regularisation, the granting of stable and secure status is a key part of integration and that does not only happen in the asylum process. I agree that the regularisation scheme from last year and going into this year has been a big success. I just met with people today who benefited from the scheme and heard about how their lives have been transformed because of it through better work, safety, living without fear and all of that. There is the possibility of an ongoing system. We would certainly call for an ongoing system of regularisation to be introduced here in Ireland. It could use the same criteria as the scheme but not have it open for six months. It could be done on an ongoing basis so there would be smaller numbers regularised on an ongoing basis. That way, there would not be this build-up of an undocumented population with people living long-term undocumented and all the difficulties that brings. Other countries already do that, like France, Portugal and Spain, so we could certainly do that here.

Senator Lynn Ruane

As a new member of the committee, I will let Deputy Gannon away with how much time he took. I apologise; I have a clash at this time so I was at the justice committee. I am sorry I missed people's opening statements. I have lots of questions going in different directions so I will try to keep the ones that are similar together. One of them relates to direct provision. With the White Paper, we thought we were starting to move towards the ending of direct provision. People were eager to see how that was going to play out and eager to see an end to that system but then the unimaginable happened and we are back in a situation where we are nearly saying we need more direct provision. It is not that we need more direct provision but we need to be able to accommodate people. I and many others want adequate housing, own-door accommodation and all of those things but we want that to be State provided. We found ourselves in this emergency and there is a dichotomy between the use of these private facilities versus us wanting a public model where people are housed. Is there something in between those two things that we have not yet explored in a moment of crisis? I do not know if any of the witnesses have much knowledge of this so I would like to hear if they do. I am thinking of the likes of the Dídean model. I do not know if they know it. In communicating with that organisation and looking at the kind of work it is doing, it does not feel like it is private and it does not feel like it is fully public. There is some sort of a social enterprise model there that has potential to provide own-door accommodation but that also has supports on-site in terms of access to social workers, literacy supports, supports from a county council and support with all the different forms. There is some sort of integrated approach or a community development-style approach within that accommodation in Dídean. Do any of the witnesses have a comment on that model? Is it something that should be invested in and expanded? It potentially could not be done without some private investment. That is where the problem comes in because you do not want to be increasing the private investment again. It feels like that is a good model but how do you actually replicate that without any private investment, even if it is a social enterprise-style private investment? That is one question.

The other question fits into what Deputy Gannon was saying about the filling out of forms. Has Mr. Collins had any experience with this? If I was going somewhere and someone told me "you should say this because then they will leave you alone" I would say "okay". There is an inflexibility in not allowing people to process their scenarios and think about what they are saying, even with the language and all of that. In my office, we have been trying to look at how many people have been refused asylum or refused at some stage of the process based on sexuality. With regard to credibility, we have been hearing that people have been asked whether they have had sexual intercourse with somebody of the same sex, whether they have gone to a gay nightclub or if they have a boyfriend or girlfriend. All of a sudden, somebody's sexuality is not about them having an internal sexuality but somehow about having an experience of that sexuality in the world, which seem like two very different things. Have any of the witnesses come across people being refused because of their sexuality being questioned under the credibility grounds, based on a quite awful line of questioning and determining what someone's sexuality is?

Another of my questions relates to integration. Maybe Ms McGinley can answer this. Sometimes it seems we have not fully grasped what integration means. At the community level, sometimes we think integration just means someone is part of the community or is going to the same school. It is not actually full access to their fundamental rights, whether it be health, employment or all those things. I also look at it through the lens of service provision. I note it is 20 years on from me working in the addiction sector and it is still extremely white. That is not without people saying they are struggling to make their services culturally appropriate. There is a fear around suggesting service provision for particular things, whether it is health related, community related or in relation to addiction. We have a huge eastern European population who have huge needs with regard to addiction but they do not have their own services set up. Is integration just someone having access to all their needs being met on a human rights basis and all those things or is it that they are having their needs met with the general population within the existing services? Do we need to heavily resource culturally appropriate services run by particular communities or nationalities for their own people?

On the other hand, would that be a further separation of people in communities? I am wondering about this aspect because I feel like we are failing time and again to make our services places where people want to come if they are not white and Irish. I am asking this question in order that I can understand the position. All of the witnesses should feel free to comment on it.

I have an observation regarding the consultation aspect. Consultation is a cosmetic thing that people are referring to. A consultation can be done here and now, but governments have had decades to invest properly in communities, systems, etc. In this context, consultation is just pretending that we are talking to people, when, in reality, their situation is not going to change. We are just going to say we have consulted, and we focus too much on this idea of consultation rather than investment in communities, the asylum process and all these things. These protests, especially in working class communities, would not be happening if people were feeling safe in their own lives in a general sense. People are now taking this lack of safety and placing the responsibility on another group, as if those other people had somehow caused the lack of safety. In reality, years and years of oppression, structural violence and inequality have caused this lack of safety.

Should we begin to move away from this false idea that consultation is somehow going to solve something? I say this because after the consultation, the people in the room being consulted will still be living in poverty, still be on low wages, still have poor access to adequate healthcare and will still be involved with structures such as Tusla, etc. These people are not in a good situation and consultation does not solve the problem. In the context of this firefighting process, are we doing enough to demand better investment in communities so people can live safely and happily side by side and not see the other as some sort of threat to their means? Obviously, they are not. This is more of an observation on my part. It is a bit naïve when people keep referring to consultation. What is it for, after all? It does not actually achieve anything in the end.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will open the discussion up to our panel, if anybody wishes to come in on these points.

Mr. Nick Henderson

I will come in on the first point around Dídean. In January 2020, we produced a long report called Alternatives to Direct Provision. One of the main points in that report was that we cannot rely, and this was before the current crisis, on a single model of accommodation. In the report, we recommended seven models. Dídean was one of those and an example of the social enterprise-style model of accommodation. One of the major concerns about the for-profit model of direct provision in use over the past 20 years has been the idea of a company, which has its accounts offshore, where there is no transparency, taking large amounts of money and providing an extremely poor quality service. This is the root of the White Paper and programme for Government commitment to a non-profit model replacing the current system.

As was said, I do not think, unfortunately, that we have the luxury of completely dismissing the idea of any private involvement in accommodation provision right now. If we look at the current percentage of accommodation, I think the Dídean model would be one of the very few examples of a social enterprise model. Provision is nearly all for-profit now. If we include the provision of accommodation for Ukrainians as well, so much of it consists of hotels.

Ms Edel McGinley

On integration as a whole, I always find the equality framework much more useful than integration measures, although there is an examination of sites where integration should happen. Equality of access and participation outcomes are very useful, especially concerning services. If we are looking at outcomes for people and what goes into those outcomes, which could be a specialised service or something else, I feel the equality framework works much better in some respects. We have equality laws and I think this is a better framework to work from. Social and political participation are key aspects, especially in engaging migrant communities and people having a say over decisions affecting their lives.

One of the recommendations we made earlier revolves around re-establishing a national community development programme across the country that would examine the needs of the host society and people coming to live here. This was decimated and we are still in a context of austerity when it comes to community development and youth work. This is abhorrent. This committee needs to be saying more about this point. I refer to having more critical engagement and community work, where local communities have a say over the policies that affect their lives. I am not talking about consultation but having an actual say over what is going on and having a stake. People do not have a stake now in some respects. We have failed communities in not investing in them and in the rationalisation of the community development projects and processes across the country. We must invest more in youth work. I refer to critical youth work - not just Garda diversion projects - that takes account of the lived experience of young people and how that informs our policies in the future.

Senator Lynn Ruane

In Tallaght, we have a new detached street work programme. Sometimes, these things are personality driven. Even if the principles are there, having the right personality in a role is extremely positive. The person currently undertaking a role as part of the detached street work programme is brilliant. During one of the protests in Tallaght, he arrived as a street worker. He engaged with six or seven young men on the march and asked them why they were there. They did not really know. I do not know why they were there, but it was probably for the excitement, which is a horrible way to put on it because it is not very exciting. I mean that they were passing the time. After that conversation, those young men have not gone to any more marches. They have enrolled in this youth worker's fitness programme and have trained a couple of times on the local football pitches. They have invited some of the young Somali men from Cookstown to come up and play them in matches. This type of activity is just not happening enough. Youth workers are sitting in their offices in their community centres and not even working their hardest to engage young men in their communities, never mind reaching out beyond that. Ms McGinley's point is important. I thank her for making it.

Mr. Brian Collins

The Irish Refugee Council and LGBT Ireland compiled a report on sexual orientation recently. It is entitled Believe Me or Not But I Am Who I Am: Experiences of LGBTI+ Asylum Seekers Proving Credibility in the Irish International Protection Process. It would probably be worth having a look at it, because its contents come from the lived experience of people in the process. In short, though, we have definitely come across cases where a claim has been refused based on negative credibility findings around sexual orientation. I do not know if this approach is used systematically, but a barrister in the UK has developed a model of credibility assessment, the difference, shame, stigma, harm, DSSH, model, and this has been endorsed in the UNHCR guidelines on the assessment of sexual orientation and gender identity cases. The variety of questions will depend on the individual decision-maker, but I have certainly come across questions around what people's music tastes are and this kind of thing. There was also the case where someone from the Middle East was asked why he did not have contact with his mother, and she had said she would prefer if he was dead rather than being gay. These are the kinds of things I am talking about. It is obviously complicated to assess it, but there is a case from the Court of Justice which states there is an entitlement to do a credibility assessment and to take into account stereotypes, as long as this is not the sole basis of the assessment. I can, however, look into the specifics and email the information on later.

Senator Lynn Ruane

That would be great. I thank Mr Collins.

Mr. Brian Collins

This is something that is certainly arising. The panel members of the IPO get training, although I think they have to opt-in to it. I am open to correction on this aspect, but this is my understanding. We have certainly raised this matter and I think the Irish Refugee Council has done some work on it as well.

Ms Wendy Muperi

Regarding integration, I agree that that model is probably the best but because of the different lived realities of people arriving here, it might take a little bit more effort to engage them to come to the same level where they can access the addiction services spoken about. Some are coming from a culture where drinking too much is celebrated or is deemed normal. Regarding mental health, there is a lot people need to learn about seeking help. People may be coming from cultures where they have to "pray it away". It will take longer than necessary in terms of getting help. We need to educate and raise awareness to make sure people are able to use the services under this model.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As there are no more questions, I offer the panellists the chance to say anything they have not had the chance to say so far.

Ms Edel McGinley

What is in the committee's gift to do regarding some of the issues we have raised today? We have asked the committee to write to certain Ministers or pursue certain actions. For us it is really important that we come here and present these issues on the record. Often we leave committees and very little action is taken about some of the issues raised. I put it back to the committee to ask how we can progress some of these issues.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Writing letters would have to be decided in a private meeting with the whole committee. I was passing notes here about that and we will get it onto the agenda for the next private committee meeting. We cannot make a decision but we will have the conversation in the wider committee. We could issue a press release on some of the issues raised. I am not sure about the decision-making process around that. We might have a chat about it afterwards. I assume we will be writing a report on this and there will be launch of the report. That is another opportunity to get media attention focused on the issue. We can use the report as a tool for further leverage. As I said, the specific questions would have to be brought up in a private session when everyone is present.

Senator Lynn Ruane

We will also request that the report be read in both Chambers, so that there is a further political engagement on the recommendations in the report.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When that happens, the relevant Minister will have to give a reply to it. It can be very useful to have the report read because it guarantees a response from the Department.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. Before we finish, I propose that we publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.17 p.m. until 3 p.m on Tuesday, 21 March 2023.