Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Tuesday, 23 Apr 2024

Ireland's International Obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

The agenda item for the day is a discussion on the views of children on Ireland's international obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and emerging issues for children in Ireland, including artificial intelligence, AI. We are delighted to be joined today by a number of young people representing the youth advisory panel which supports the Ombudsman for Children. We are also joined by the Ombudsman for Children, Dr. Niall Muldoon, and a number of supporting members of his team. As a committee with responsibility for children and youth, it is always great to be able to engage with young people. We are really happy about that.

For the information of members of the public who are following the meeting this afternoon, the advisory panel helps the office of the Ombudsman for Children to find out what children and young people are concerned about. Members of the panel highlight their concerns and opinions to the relevant people who make decisions about them. Today they will be speaking to the committee about their work with the United Nations and the concerns the panel has previously raised, especially about racism and diversity. The panel is also aware that this committee is examining the issue of AI and its impact on children. Members are happy to share some of their thoughts on that too. The advisory panel has also engaged with their friends and peers on these issues in various ways over recent years. The views and information we will hear from them this afternoon are representative of a much wider number of peers.

As I said, we are delighted you are here. Thanks so much for attending and for the work you did in advance of the meeting. The committee is extremely grateful to have the opportunity to hear directly from you and thanks everyone who fed into that process in advance of the meeting.

Witnesses should be aware that the Oireachtas is extremely busy, especially on a Tuesday, and as a result some members of the committee may have to leave at various points. Also, some members attend meetings via MS Teams, which is a whole new phenomenon for us since Covid, as it is in many areas. Everything that is said at our meetings is recorded, which means members have the opportunity to go back and read through the transcripts and look at the footage.

I will now deal with a few housekeeping matters. I wish to advise members in attendance that the chat function on MS Teams should only be used to make the team on site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that arise during the meeting and should not be used to make general comments or statements. Members are reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. If any member attempts to participate from outside the precincts, he or she will be asked to leave the meeting. In that regard, I ask those partaking via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I will now deal with parliamentary privilege. This information is for both members and witnesses. In advance of inviting the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I want to explain what parliamentary privilege means in the context of appearing before an Oireachtas committee. The evidence of witnesses and members physically present or those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that anything members or witnesses say today cannot be used against them in court. However, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. As Cathaoirleach of the committee, if I am of the opinion that what witnesses or members are saying is potentially defamatory in relation to any person I will direct them to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. While I am legally obliged to provide this information, I have no fear that there will be any issue here today with what is said at this meeting and there should be no need for me to intervene.

I will now invite two members of the panel to deliver the opening statements. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Ciaran Smith and Rachel Fleming will deliver their opening statements and members' questions will be taken by Luke, Sienna and Bel.

Ciaran Smith

I would like to thank the committee for inviting us here this afternoon and for giving us a tour before the meeting. We are representing the Ombudsman for Children's youth advisory panel and are here tody to talk to the committee about our work. First, we want to talk about our Pieces of Us series of reports which form a part of the Ombudsman for Children's Office, OCO, submission to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child. The youth advisory panel started work on the children’s report to the United Nations in early 2021. Along with the OCO, we designed a survey which was sent to every school and over 100 youth groups in Ireland. We asked what children under the age of 18 thought was good, bad, and what they would change about life in Ireland. Over 5,100 children answered the survey. We took the key findings from the survey and created questions that the OCO staff could ask in focus groups. We helped to design the focus groups and select the children that would take part to make sure that the questions were age appropriate and that the OCO was talking to children we really wanted to hear from.

The OCO staff held 23 in-depth focus groups with over 100 children from all across Ireland including young children in early years’ services, children from Traveller and Roma backgrounds, children in detention, LGBTI children and also children in conflict with the law. After each focus group we co-analysed all of the data that the OCO collected. We decided what should be in the report to the UN, what it should look like and what it should be called. We called it Pieces of Us because we felt connected to every single person and story in the report, and that it represented all the children in Ireland.

The youth advisory panel then went to the United Nations and presented Pieces of Us to the Committee on the Rights of the Child.

When we returned from Geneva, we also held meetings with Government officials to make sure they knew what children were saying. When the committee gave Ireland its concluding observations we knew that we wanted to find out what children thought about them, so we held a massive children’s conference in Croke Park to get children’s opinions on what they thought the Government should do to implement the concluding observations. This event was called Pieces of Us – What’s Next? Again, we designed and delivered every part of the conference and the report, including analysing all of the data and designing the report.

Rachel Fleming

Both Pieces of Us and Pieces of Us – What’s Next? cover many themes, including education, services for children and community and leisure. However, as we know the committee is interested in equality issues, and racism in particular, we will focus on these issues and recommendations.

In Pieces of Us, children of colour described both overt and covert displays of racism in their everyday lives, which had an effect on speaking out against racism. Having experienced racism, many children did not feel safe. These children also felt that others view them as a homogenous group rather than considering their unique experiences of racism. Children also experienced racist bullying at the hands of their peers in school. Some children also experienced racism from their teachers. Most of the children experienced microaggressions in school and the wider community. The microaggressions came from teachers, peers and other adults. This led some children to feel ashamed or embarrassed about their culture when their food or cultural expression was questioned. Racism was also at a systemic level. Many children questioned the narrow content of some subjects, such as history, and the lack of education on other cultures.

In Pieces of Us - What’s Next?, children made several strong recommendations for change and improvements for children of colour in Ireland. These include improved teacher training, changes to the curriculum and changes to the wider school environment. The children had many suggestions about improving inclusion and diversity in school and how inequality and discrimination can be tackled. First, children recommend more teacher training, including mandatory courses on different cultures and anti-racism and unconscious bias training for teachers and guidance counsellors. Children believe that there needs to be more diversity in the curriculum. They recommend changes to the CSPE, SPHE and history curriculums. They believe there should be education on microaggressions, systemic racism and black history. Children also suggested changes in the wider school environment. This includes anti-racism policies in all schools, which are separate from anti-bullying policies. The children believe there should be sanctions for students and teachers who breach anti-racism policies. Additionally, children want to see greater representation of teachers from different races, cultures, religions and gender identities in schools. They also want greater acknowledgment of different cultures and religions throughout the school year, not just one-off culture days.

We look forward to telling the committee more about these issues in our discussion and we would like to give some quotes and examples from the children. We are aware that members would like to discuss AI and we have many opinions that we are eager to share.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses. We will move to members' questions, beginning with Senator O'Sullivan.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

First, I extend a very warm welcome to our guests, both adults and young people. It is wonderful to meet them. We do a lot of talking here about children and children's things, and it is nice to be talking to the end users - I suppose you could put it that way - and the people who are at the coalface. It is great that they are engaged and prepared to give their time to this very valuable project under the leadership of Dr. Muldoon and the OCO.

I was young once. It is so far back that I cannot remember it now. It was a different world then. We did not have mobile phones or iPads. We did not even have a TV until I was 12 years old. There was very little drug abuse in the community at the time, and far less pressure on my generation than the young people here have to put up with. We did not have as diverse a cultural spread in those days either, regrettably. The way in which our guests have embraced that is wonderful. They are championing it and are prepared to see all students and young people as equals. I think that is wonderful and it is a great example for adults to take from them. We can learn from them. The only thing we did not have was the wealth and infrastructure of the modern world. There were no community centres in my day. We went out on a field with a football and that was it. We probably did not have the diet and nutrition that our guests enjoy today, even though my mother would kill me if she heard that remark. It was a different world anyway.

I want to pick up on a few points that were raised. By the way, I was a teacher for about 20 years, in both Kerry and in Dublin and at primary and secondary levels at different stages. Where are our guests from, by the way? I hope and pray they are not all Dublin people, although perhaps that would be very convenient for organising it. In the report they did for the UN and the survey they carried out, they started from the age of 18 down. How far down did they go? What was the youngest participating group? Are we down into infants or where are we there?

Pieces of Us is a remarkable piece of work. I had a chance to go into it before coming down today. One thing that shocked me was the references to racism among teaching staff. As a former teacher, I condemn that out of hand and am shocked and very disappointed by it. I think our guests put up the remedy when they suggested that there should be a wider range of cultures represented in the teaching staff to correspond with the more diverse group that young people make up. That is something that will have to be pursued. If nothing else, it has been highlighted by our guests' work. It is absolutely reprehensible that a teacher who is in loco parentis would treat any student differently from another. Believe me, I speak for the vast majority of teachers when I say that. I reject those who behave like that.

The more diverse curriculum is a good idea. The curriculum is quite broad. I do not want to be going back to my days but when I went to secondary school it was English, Irish, Latin and Greek. That was the extent of it, as well as history, geography and maths. Today's curriculum is way more diverse than the one we had but, obviously, it needs to be more diverse to represent young people and the population breakdown.

I do not have a whole lot more to say. I admire our guests greatly and I will listen to the other questions and answers. I thank them for being here.

An Cathaoirleach

I might let Senator Ruane come in with her questions because I know she is under pressure, and then our guests can respond to both sets of questions.

Senator Lynn Ruane

I thank the Chair. I apologise for having to leave. The justice committee is meeting now to consider the EU migration pact, so it is quite an important discussion. We have to kind of flip between the two rooms, so I do apologise.

There are a few things I wish to raise. Obviously, there is the stuff that is in the report but I am wondering about the survey process. I think there were more than 5,000 responses. The survey was evenly distributed in terms of the spread, but not everyone invited to respond does so. Was there a demographic breakdown of responses? Were demographics included in the survey to capture the race, class, disability and urban-rural responses?

I do not know whether the young people were asked to provide particular solutions to things. Were they asked what they see as the driving factors? In the context of racism, classism or anything like that, did anything come through regarding what the respondents believed drove certain thinking in young people? Was any correlation with regard to areas that have been under-resourced or underserved? What types of responses did respondents from such areas give regarding what was good or bad? Did poverty come up or how close somebody is to poverty? Obviously, poverty is not only financial now. I am sure that when Senator O'Sullivan talks about poverty, it is very different from the poverty in the 1990s that I would I talk about. It is cultural and social. It is about having access to the arts and literature.

It is about intergenerational unemployment or hardship. In people's responses, did any connection show in how different demographics types responded to particular issues or solutions? Does that make sense? I have one other question, which is on the teaching profession. What do people see as being the barriers to a more diverse population of teachers? Obviously the majority of teachers in Ireland are white, middle-class mostly rural women. It is almost an homogenous group, if we want to call them that. It is heavily white and there are often families of teachers where there have been several different generations of teachers within the family. Is there any insight as to why we have not yet seen that shift in greater representation among the teacher population?

An Cathaoirleach

There is a lot in that, as we have taken two contributions together. I believe Bel Nabulele, Sienna Shackleton and Luke Fagan will answer the questions. They may wish to go in that order and come in on any of the points made by Senators O'Sullivan and Ruane.

Bel Nabulele

I will go first as my microphone is on. To address Senator Ruane's last point on barriers to a more diverse teaching force, I have a quote to hand on which I will expand. On diversity in the teaching course, Irish is mandatory to become a teacher, which puts students of colour at a disadvantage. I am 16 and have not been to college but as far as I know, some level of Irish is mandatory if someone wants to become a teacher. I do not know. Obviously, if someone was not born here or if English is not his or her first language, it can be difficult to pick it up. From what I have seen, this is one of the main reasons we are not seeing a more diverse population of teachers. I do not know whether my colleagues have any additional comments.

Sienna Shackleton

I think that answered the point quite well.

An Cathaoirleach

Do the witnesses have any other comments on anything said by Senator O'Sullivan or Senator Ruane?

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

I asked about the ages of people involved in the report. I know some of the people involved are under 18. What was the lowest age?

Luke Fagan

Ciaran Smith might be more equipped to answer this. However, he has not been designated to answer questions.

Ciaran Smith

I was involved in the report from start to finish. It included children as young as two years old. We had a section assigned to early years. It included young people aged from two to 18. To address Senator Ruane, we tried to include as many demographics as possible. While there was no graph breakdown on discrimination and inequality, we surveyed as many different children as possible to get the most accurate and authentic response. We included experiences and you can get a real feel of the emotion through the report.

Rachel Fleming

To add to that, on the driving factors of prejudice, it was clear in the report that children have an understanding that prejudice is not something someone is born with and that it is always taught, which is why education makes such a big difference for kids.

Luke Fagan

Senator O'Sullivan said he had been a teacher and was shocked to hear of racism among teachers and in schools. As mentioned in the opening statement, microaggressions still are racism. This could be seen in comments about hair or food. Some teachers are not well educated on this. Although some teachers may not intend to be racist, they can be when they use microaggressions or when they do not let a certain student do this or that. Perhaps it is not their intention and while I cannot speak for all teachers, sometimes I do not think teachers ultimately do mean to be racist or use microaggressions. They have to get more education on racism, which could go with a change in the curriculum. One of the recommendations by the young people we surveyed was to provide more teacher training and it could fix this issue.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

I have a supplementary question. Are the teachers guilty of this offence from the older generation of teachers or the younger ones? Is there a difference?

Luke Fagan

I could not pull out numbers because I do not have that sort of information. I feel it would be unfair to pinpoint that. As I have not experienced any sort of racism like that, I could not even begin to explain to the Senator what kind of demographic of teachers would be racist.

Sienna Shackleton

I will respond to Senator O'Sullivan and Senator Ruane on racism within teaching and the factors driving it. There is a huge amount of misinformation provided and there is not enough education on other cultures. A child from a migrant background stated:

So ... everything that I know now about like my history, or even about other cultures, not only black people, it’s ... because I had to go out there myself and I actually had to look it up, or I had to ask the family members .... So I feel like, we should be able to do something in the education system so that ... everyone still feels like ... we’re being recognised at least.

We can see how that falls under a lack of diverse staff and representation for students and teachers. Some of the recommendations were to rewrite older books in order that they do not have racist or homophobic terms in them. I do not see how random slurs build up a story. They have no meaning to a story. They do not add value or any sort of education. They provide the opposite of education and they only provide prejudice.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I apologise; I was online at the beginning of this session. I thank the witnesses for coming in. Their report is extraordinary.

I advocate for a particular group in society and in that context, people can ask questions and they are completely ignorant of the fact the question they are asking is highly offensive. They do not mean it but that does not make it any less offensive. It just perhaps makes it easier to forgive. It is when I sit down and engage with people. As I am a mother via surrogacy, people ask me very peculiar questions at times. It is when you sit down and have dialogue with people to say this is the terminology, this is how to refer to a family and this is how to do all these things that people then realise they know why it was offensive.

Do the witnesses have recommendations on how there could be feedback in a school because I am aware of the power imbalance? If you are a student and teachers are engaging in overt racism, how could that be overcome? It strikes me about that dialogue in saying they are being discriminatory about food or making references or something like that. Do the witnesses have suggestions on how we can practically engage and overcome that power difference?

Ciaran Smith

First, I would have classes for teachers to understand racism and how not to be racist. They could be taught about different cultures and how to respect them. As Senator Ruane mentioned, teachers in this country are not a diverse group. Once we counter this, we then can counter overt racism as Senator Seery Kearney mentioned. I am not sure whether someone else would like to come in on that.

Luke Fagan

I do not have much more to say. The answer to the Senator's question is educating one another on different topics. It is the exchange of information and dialogue. It comes back to education and Sienna Shackleton went to that in response to the previous question. Culturally insensitive remarks about food or hair are microggressions, which is still racism. The quicker teachers or others would recognise that it is the better and by educating them, that could be a solution to that problem.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

We are talking in very polite terms here, where our witnesses are speaking about microaggression. I wonder if the people listening understand what we mean.

Would any of our other guests care to talk about that experience and how you would like to overcome it?

Bel Nabulele

If I may, I will come in. Not just speaking as a young person but speaking as a Black Irish young person, I have been asked all the questions like whether my hair is real, whether it is flammable and all those random questions you have here. Building on what was said about education, one of the things that can help is having an anti-racism policy in schools that is separate to an anti-bullying policy. An anti-racism policy that would hold not just the students accountable but also the teachers. It can be hard to know when you are stepping over that line when what you are saying is not okay to say. Having a policy that outlines what should not be done or said and that makes it very clear to everyone would be helpful. I do not mean presenting a 40-page or 50-page document to every student and teacher to read but rather making it clear, so that there is no excuse not to follow the policy. Implementing it properly would be a big thing.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

We speak about racism but this also could be from a religious perspective, there are also LGBT groups, as well as other groups such as disability groups within schools. When the witnesses referred in their opening statement to having an anti-racism policy, I thought to myself that this was so obvious, wondered why we had not thought about that before and thought of course we should have an anti-racism policy. There are, however, other protected groups or categories that also are under the Equal Status Act to which we should be giving consideration. Do you have suggestions on how we tackle those other areas?

Princess Ogumefu

The Senator asked about experience and hinted that she wanted to hear from people about personal perspectives in terms of racism and microaggression. For me, through my experience as a Black Irish person, ever since I was younger, the minute you would get into school there was a dynamic where if you were Black you were not really seen as Irish. That was a bigger thing when I was younger and it has got better over the years and I am really happy about that and it is something to be grateful for. It comes with education and the process of learning. Ii is if you bring in traditional food that people have not seen, for example. I remember being asked questions by my teacher when I was in sixth class like "Do you eat the normal food that we eat at Christmas? Do you exchange gifts in the morning?" It drove me insane that this was a question that could be asked. Sometimes it is fine to be asked, "Is your hair real?" I come in with different hair every month and I get that it is irregular, it is not usual. It comes with education and experience and not just education of the older generations. It starts with education of the younger generations-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Again that is where the curriculum comes from. That is brilliant. I thank our guest.

Sienna Shackleton

Education is absolutely all of it, from all ages to all backgrounds, to anywhere you are coming from. Whether you have lived here your whole life or have just moved here does not really matter, you should be given some kind of education. It should be provided, you should be supported. As was said, there is covert racism and I will read a quote from a child in secondary school who stated:

We had an event [on] for Pride, and everyone showed up, everyone was in colour and there was music. But then next week there is an event [addressing] racism, no one showed up. And not even the people of colour in my school, because they were scared to support themselves because there is ... stigma around that.

We have seen over the years that we can reduce and fight stigma, by talking. The more talking we do, the more education we have. We are going to bring that stigma down; it is going to be easier to talk about it. Just like Mental Health Week, this can be talked about. We can be provided with education and can give others education. Multiculturalism is the biggest thing that we need to enforce at the minute.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Costello, who is also on the justice committee.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I thank the Chair and thank the witnesses for coming in. I apologise for being late as I was in the Chamber where they are dealing with the Stardust tragedy and could not leave. I did not wish to walk out in the middle of the speeches.

I was quite struck by the suggestions on improved teacher training, changes to the curriculum and changes to the wider school environment. I had wanted to ask about those points but organically, my questions have been answered. I was struck by a point Bel made about what is the point in having a 40-page or 50-page policy document. I found myself thinking about the number of policy documents that sit gathering dust and are ignored. They are neither enforced nor implemented. The witnesses are highly articulate, very clear on what they want and what the problems are and are suggesting solutions. As we deal with a lot of people who know what the problems are but do not necessarily have solutions, it is very refreshing to have solutions forthcoming.

I am curious to know whether there is any meaningful engagement in the schools with students around policy development, implementation and enforcement because the witnesses are clear what the problems are. My question is whether the schools are listening to them. It is great that they have this research put together to show how widespread the issue is but are the schools listening? The witnesses might talk to us about their experience around that. Obviously, a lot of people are involved in this including the unions, the Department of Education and the colleges that provide the training. It is important that our guests give this positive message they are giving to us to them as well. I am curious as to whether they have engaged with them and if not, I encourage them to do so.

Finally, I suspect I may be opening a can of worms but at the end of her speech, Rachel stated that our guests were discussing AI and they have many opinions that they are eager to share. We are eager to hear them as well and while I appreciate this is a very open-ended question, we have been engaging a lot with advocacy groups around this, as well as some of the social media providers themselves. I am not a user of many different social media platforms. I am not going to start naming names but I am making an assumption that the witnesses are all active users and their experiences with social media would also be very useful, given that we have had the companies' perspective here, if they can give that in seven minutes.

Rachel Fleming

If I could speak first on the policy that was mentioned, it is known in schools that no one should be discriminating. That is quite clear and is explained to us. But the way that schools are going about it is incorrect. They do not go into it in depth it is just, "do not be racist." Clearly no-one is supposed to be racist but it is not properly helping students. It is not explaining to people how wrong it is and how much it affects people. There are quotes here asking for diverse staff and representation for students and teachers and that is part of it as well. At the end of the day, however, what goes on between students affects people so much and impacts people so much. The schools are not going about it in the right direction.

Sienna Shackleton

If I could add to that, the schools are definitely not going about it in the right way, in any way, shape or form. Where I am from, I am a rural Mayo person and there is a lot of casual speech around it. That is not just where I am from, it is in a lot of rural positions, a lot of rural places and in a lot of experiences. There are a lot of experiences in smaller schools of having difficulty with saying to someone, "do not say that to me, that is racist."

There is none of that because if that happens, you are then asked why you are being so sensitive and so vulnerable; it is just a joke. Then, if you were to tell the teacher, they would wave it away and say they were joking and were just trying to have a bit of fun. There is no sensitivity around this. There is no acknowledgement that this is wrong. There are no definite guidelines they should be following to be able to say something is enough or too much. Schools are definitely struggling with that and with how to identify it because it has become so relaxed and normal, even with the students, that it can just be passed off as being okay. They will leave it alone and will say the those involved will stop one day, even though they are not enforcing any sort of boundary with them.

To feed back on one of the Deputy’s points regarding the policy documents, the youth advisory panel engaged with youth groups and listened to the voices of children. Both Pieces of Us and Pieces of Us - What’s Next? feature many youth voices that have been heard and written down. We take any opinion we can get. We take any feedback on the pros and cons. We try to take as much of it into account as possible. We show, represent and enhance them.

Bel Nabulele

I want to come in on the issue of policy, which was my point. One of the problems is that policies can sit in the corner of an office, collect dust and not be updated. It was only recently that Irish Travellers were recognised as a minority group. Part of the problem is that even if a school has an anti-racism policy, it will do that for the week to get their yellow flag and hang it in the school, but it will not do it ever again. The school will not do anything after that. It is just for the multiculturalism week or day. It is just not enough.

The Deputy asked whether our schools are listening to us. Personally, I think the best way for schools to listen to students is through a policy that is currently being used by the Educate Together schools, which is to have students sit on the schools’ boards of management. They do not do this in a voting capacity but, rather, in an advisory role. I do not want to use the word “supervisor” but they make sure the board of management puts the students at the heart of all its actions. Having students sit on the board of management is definitely a step in the right direction.

An Cathaoirleach

I know there was a question about AI but I also want to bring Senator Clonan in.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I apologise that I will have to go to another committee but I will be back.

Senator Tom Clonan

First, I apologise for not being here for the opening statements. I was caught in the Order of Business on a matter that is not far removed from what we are discussing here. I also welcome Dr. Niall Muldoon, whom I have never met, but I thank him for all his powerful advocacy in the area of disability rights for children. As a parent and a carer, I really appreciate it.

I must confess that I was a primary school teacher in a previous life back in the 1980s. I had 37 children in the class-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I think the non-teachers should stand up.

Senator Tom Clonan

This was back in the 1980s when Ireland had a very homogenous population. I want to compliment the witnesses for all the work they have done on issues of race, ethnicity and all of the sensitivities in that area because it is something Ireland really has to get to grips with. No pressure on you guys, but you are the demographic that will have to do that and you are already showing significant leadership in that regard.

I am sorry if my question is out of place because I missed the opening statements. After being a primary school teacher, I was in the Army for 12 years and then I went into the third-level sector. An area that really has emerged is that of gender-based violence and sexual violence at third level. The rates of gender-based violence, sexual violence and sexual harassment at third level are shockingly high. One in three students at third level experience incidents of gender-based violence, sexual violence and harassment. The research that is being carried out across the third level institutions shows that there can be a particular focus on first years. This is possibly because it will be the first time they have been away from home and living independently away from their parents, that is, if they can find accommodation. It is often their first experience of being in a gender-integrated environment. This is because so many schools are still all-girls schools and all-male schools. I know from speaking with some of the witnesses that they have been to those schools and some have come from more integrated schools. Notwithstanding all of the issues around race and the sensitivities there, is that something that is dealt with that at second level? Is that something the witnesses are experiencing now?

I have four children, and they are adults and teenagers. One of them is still in the second-level system. He is in transition year. I have a daughter who has just started first year. I know from talking to them that there are huge issues around gender-based violence, sexual violence and harassment. Is that something that came up in the focus groups? Is it something that the witnesses are cognisant of themselves? Is it being dealt with effectively? This does not just start in first year. Obviously, this is something that evolves over time. Is it dealt with properly at second level? What can we do about it? From the witnesses’ focus groups and their own experience, is there a difference in behaviours or outcomes between the peculiarly Irish model of having single-sex schools and integrated schools?

Luke Fagan

I overheard Senator Clonan say that he served in the Army, and I first want to thank him for everything he has done.

I go to a single-sex school. It is an all-boys school. There is a primary school attached to our school. The process is that you will go to that primary school, then to our secondary school and then to whatever third level you choose. Recently, the primary school became co-educational, so the school started catering to both boys and girls. That poses a real threat to our secondary school, which is now also planning to become co-educational. This may not only be because the primary school became co-educational. It may also be because of what the Senator said, which is that when a student goes to college it may be the first time they are exposed to co-educational spaces where they are in a mix of the two genders, men and women. You will be more used to it at second level than primary level. This is not an excuse or anything but if you were to integrate early so that there was not this shock at third level, it might lower that a bit. I am not saying that is the out-and-out resolution to it. There are probably better solutions that could solve it but having a single-sex school and going straight into a co-educational school is a bad idea. I have seen in other areas around Ireland in particular that there has been an increase in co-educational schools. That would give a hand to that issue.

Senator Tom Clonan

One of the issues that has emerged in the research that has been carried out at third level is that there is not enough conversation around the area of consent. This leads to a situation that might otherwise be an interaction between two consenting adults becoming an assault. There is a parallel issue of the proliferation of pornography and access to pornography. In the absence of proper, strong sex education, people internalise behaviours around what they see online and think it is normal. That was one of the issues that emerged at third level. I imagine that is the case at second level, too, because kids are now getting smartphones at six, seven and eight years of age. The big tech companies were before the committee. They did not really satisfy us that they could filter that material on the basis of age and access.

Do any of the witnesses wish to comment on that?

Bel Nabulele

Regarding single-sex schools, gradual integration is definitely the way to go. I attended an all-girls' school for a brief period. Sometimes, single-sex schools can be used as a safe space for young people. There might be pupils who have experienced assault in their lifetime and who do not feel comfortable learning with the opposite gender. I want to stress that. Obviously, integration is a good thing, but it cannot be done all at once because that is too overwhelming. It should be done gradually.

The Senator asked about sex education in schools. Consent education should automatically be a part of the relationships and sexuality education, RSE, curriculum. I do not know whether that is currently the case. I am in fifth year and only halfway through the RSE curriculum. Consent should definitely be part of the curriculum and emphasised more strongly than it is currently. I have never been in an all-boys' school, obviously, but I know that young men look up to figures such as Andrew Tate. If there is not a set RSE curriculum in schools that covers these issues, it is easier to look for role models on social media and elsewhere.

The Senator's question about the rise in pornography usage links in with our next discussion, which will be on artificial intelligence, AI. Asking an AI application for pornography will give links to 100 different sites. It is relatively easy to do and AI content is not filtered. Users of any age can type in a message and access material. It is really simple. AI causes issues just because there is so much information at users' fingertips. It is really simple to use.

Sinead Murray

This issue has come up in the context of all-girls' schools. In my town, there is an all-girls' school and an all-boys' school. I am in transition year and we are starting to be offered activities that are for the students from both schools. If we want effective interaction while still having two single-sex schools, it should start with shared activities from a younger age, such as bonding days in first year, instead of when we are all 16 or 17. At that age, it is a little awkward, whereas in first year, people will still know other people from their primary school.

The Senator mentioned consent. I was fortunate to work on a new, more inclusive RSE curriculum. Over the next couple of years, there will be a real focus on consent. That is vital, especially as pupils prepare for going into a third level setting, where it is a whole new and completely different experience, they are away from home and all of that. We need more education around the topics of consent, sexual safety and so on. Everyone will benefit crucially from that.

Sienna Shackleton

The background of a school tells a lot. Catholic Education, an Irish Schools Trust, CEIST, schools have to be extremely careful in this regard. I was in a CEIST-funded school for four or five years but not at primary level. I actually received more sex education in primary school than I had in secondary school. From what I have been hearing, a lot of CEIST schools, in Cork, Kerry, Dublin and Connacht, are very limited in the sex education they are providing. The RSE curriculum was adjusted last December. It has developed into talking about periods and menopause, as well as sex education. The worry is that the changes were to be included as part of the junior certificate portfolio of the curriculum but that was not done. I do not understand, even with the RSE adjustment being made, how the changes are going to be followed through. I hope there will be some kind of check-up and follow-on in schools. An organisation wanted to go into schools and provide training and education, which would be amazing.

Exactly as Bel said, the rise in pornography usage is partially because AI can bring up deep fakes from the Internet. If children do not have access to those sites on Google Chrome or whatever they use, they can still go onto their Snapchat AI feature and access whatever they want. The restrictions have not been made clear enough or adjusted. There are no proper guidelines. To me, that says the problem is getting out of control.

Rachel Fleming

Regarding sexual-based violence in secondary schools, my personal belief is that it probably is more prevalent there than it is in third level education. It is so difficult to speak about it. At our age, it is not a big topic because people do not want to discuss things like that with their parents or in school. There is so much stress about that. People do not always feel they can go and speak to someone about it. There is not always somebody there whom they can trust. Sometimes, people do not feel they can talk to the Garda. It is horrible at that age.

Senator Tom Clonan

This issue came up for me by accident in a discussion at home. There was an horrific incident a couple of years ago where a young woman was handcuffed by a police officer in London and was then raped and murdered. We happened to be talking about that case at home and my daughter said: "By the way, when you pass by in the car, don't beep the horn at me." I asked whether that is because I am her dad and therefore very embarrassing. She replied: "No, it is because when we are going to school or coming home from school, men beep the horn or try to have an interaction with us." She said that is why she wears headphones. She is not always listening to music but it means she does not have to look at people. This came as a complete newsflash to me. She told me she does not use the DART because if something happens in a carriage, it is not possible to stop the DART, so she uses the bus instead. My sons are not impacted in that way.

This points to the intersectionality of being black and Irish and being a young woman. We know from media reports that people have had awful experiences. I asked my daughter whether that type of thing happens where we live and she replied that it happens every day where we live. I then have to accept that people I know, including neighbours and friends, are the people beeping the horn and shouting things out the window. There seems to be a continuum of behaviours. Misogyny and gender-based violence seem to be persistent and really embedded in our culture. This issue intersects with race, LGBTQ status and all the other categories. I am hearing from the witnesses that this is an issue at second level.

Rachel Fleming

I think it is an issue.

Ciaran Smith

There needs to be a lot of education to dissuade any of that type of behaviour. It should be included in the RSE curriculum.

Senator Tom Clonan

Are teachers squeamish about it? Do they not want to go there?

Ciaran Smith

Yes. They do not want to teach us about any of that stuff. They do not even want to mention it. They would rather focus on maths, Irish or whatever. Even the mention of RSE can be an issue. I have learned nothing about these issues anyway.

Senator Tom Clonan

I went to a Christian Brothers school in Finglas in the 1970s and 1980s. When we did biology, the teacher said we could read the chapter on reproduction ourselves. The teacher would not teach us the reproduction chapter because of that squeamishness. There is a fear around talking about these issues. I am hearing from the witnesses that they are not squeamish or fearful. They want to talk about these issues. That is something on which we need to focus.

Ciaran Smith

That is because the alternative is going online and finding out about things in a way that is not healthy and not how it should be. We should be learning about these issues from a trusted adult or trusted teacher, not finding out for ourselves, as my peers and I may have had to do.

Sinead Murray

I understand teachers do not receive any formal training on the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum. They are just asked whether they can teach the class. A random person on the street would not be asked to teach maths. Why do teachers not need training to teach SPHE when it is so vital to young people for the rest of our lives?

Alicia Kellett

The students from first year to third year are definitely not informed on the information on consent itself or even harassment. I attend a school in Dublin, and fourth year to sixth year is when we really go into detail about consent and even pornography or harassment. The teachers are bit nervous or just a bit squeamish almost to teach first years, which are 12- to 13-year-olds, about what it is and why can we not do it. In their eyes, they are still young and they do not understand just yet. However, even as a third year, I do not learn about it in my RSE curriculum. It takes one lesson in TY and maybe an hour or an hour and a half to go over everything on consent on the curriculum and that is finished. Of my six years in school, that is my only lesson of consent or anything about that.

Princess Ogumefu

Children definitely do what they see, and when it is such a taboo topic, they are going to see it as a taboo topic as well. I am in a mixed school. I have always been in a mixed school. It is such an important thing to be in a mixed school because you learn the foundations of gender in primary and secondary school. That is a foundation you are going to bring into college. I do not understand how people can go cold turkey from being constantly with one gender. You do not know anything about the other gender at that stage. It is just a complete lack of education. There is just not enough education at all in secondary school. If people are in TY, they might have the lucky opportunity to do a module on it or something, but besides that, I do not think I have ever had the conversation. I skipped TY. I have never had that conversation with anyone in school - no teacher, no module, nothing.

Rachel Fleming

When we do know there is something wrong going on, there is very little support for people our age. What are you supposed to say about that? There are teachers who are on their fifth strike for making unwanted comments. There should not be one strike. If someone is making comments like that towards students or something, it is the case that that should be it for that person.

Bel Nabulele

It is kind of the way RSE is branded. In my timetable for school, RSE is not called RSE; it is called religion. We cover RSE in religion, apparently. Everyone started to cop on that it is RSE.

Part of it being weird for teachers is that, now in RSE, we talk about gender identity and sexuality. I have seen in the school I have been in that sometimes if parents do not want their children to learn about gender identity and sexuality, they can literally write them a note to remove them from RSE. I do not know how they are doing it, but parents literally write their child a note saying their child is going to be exempted from religion and is not going to be in the class anymore. They can just sit in the resource room and they do not have to learn about RSE. Inevitably, however, they are going to start learning about RSE from different ways and from the Internet or other unhealthy ways of getting information. In my school anyway, RSE is mandatory. It is a mandatory course. We have to get at least six weeks of RSE. I do not want to overrule parents, but it should be mandatory automatically like mathematics, English and Irish. It is kind of essential for your development as a young person. I do not think people should be allowed to be exempted from it.

Senator Tom Clonan

I have to apologise. I have amendments to legislation going through the Seanad so I have to go up and do that. It was lovely to meet everyone. I am very sorry. I had a parent in with me and I just could not leave. When I was in the Army, we had 18-year-old soldiers. We used to drop them off at the checkpoints in south Lebanon at night. We would leave them there for 12 hours and say that if they were hit up from the direction of Hezbollah, fire a green flare, and if they were hit from the Wadi Saluki, which is the Israeli side, fire a red flare. They were 18, and not a bother on them. They thrived; they loved it. They got a tan as well. I do not know how they did it. I know, therefore, that we have and inhabit a society now that is very patronising towards young people. They are disempowered. They should be in here every day. They should be on every committee. They would ask better questions. We should lower the voting age to at least 16. I wish our guests the very best of luck. I know many of them are doing their junior certificate and leaving certificate examinations. I thank them for coming in here today.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator. Senator O'Sullivan wanted to make a point.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

I will address this to Dr. Muldoon if it is in order. I am very impressed by this meeting and by all these young people, as we all are. In fact, we are not patronising anybody; it has been brilliant. How did the idea of the advisory panel come into being? Where did that idea come from? Was it specific towards putting a presentation towards the UN report? Will it be continued into the future? How does it work logistically? Do people meet or work together? Is it all on Zoom or are people working separately? Those are the questions. I am interested in that.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Essentially, hearing the voice of the child is compulsory in our legislation. It is part of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child that anybody making decisions about children should have children involved in those decisions. My predecessor had a youth advisory panel for seven or eight years. The young people at that stage themselves decided they did not need to be involved anymore because what she was doing was moving into listening to children in specific areas. She would listen perhaps to children who were in adult prisons at the time or children who might have been coming into direct provision. The young people felt they were not contributing anymore, so we closed down that youth advisory panel.

I started my term in office without a youth advisory panel, but we felt we were missing something so we re-engaged in it. Unfortunately, we decided to do it just as Covid-19 came, so Zoom was certainly the key part of it. Probably for the first year it was all Zoom. We have people from all over the country and different backgrounds. Different cohorts and people have been suggested by different NGOs and advocacy groups and then people suggest themselves as well. It certainly will be ongoing from our point of view. We set it up with the United Nations committee in mind, but it has been such a success. It is just brilliant. What the Senator sees here is just the tip of the iceberg. These guys are just top class; they are brilliant. They are strong and articulate and they are great representatives for their generation.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Senator Seery Kearney have something else she wanted to add?

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I was curious about how the panel was made up and how long it was serving. I am glad to know this is something that is working. Again, we should probably have an advisory panel as a committee as well, and why not? It seems bizarre we would speak about children and young people and not actually hear from them.

I am a little bit ashamed that we are four years in, and although this is not the first time we have engaged with young people, it is from that perspective that we can gain from their experience. Clearly, the witnesses have a very high level of experience. The manner in which they went about their questionnaires is just incredibly impressive. That is really a template; I took notes as they were speaking.

I have an eight-year-old, and one of my convictions with her was to teach her a sense of consent from the moment she was a baby and that she was not obliged to share her toys. That was not something I felt she should have to do if she did not want to. They were her toys, and while we would encourage her to share things and be generous and not be totally selfish, there were a load of things about that sense of "This is mine" - my autonomy, my body, what I think. All those things to me have been very important. I am hoping that by the time she starts edging up a little bit more, we broaden our conversations to include the sort of consent we are talking about here today.

I was very taken by Alicia's contribution when she said that we do patronise. There is something about the idea that the age of sexual consent is 17, so really it is only when people are coming towards that, but we actually need to be aware of that all the time. As I said, my personal conviction is about that idea that even babies have agency and the right to say "No", and it is something we need to be encouraging. That is just me and my parenting style. It does not mean we do not correct her, but it is important for her nos to mean no from the very beginning. Then, when her no is really important, she will have the power and autonomy to be able to enforce it.

We have touched on AI, but I am curious. Recently I had an experience where a 16-year-old, my goddaughter, was advising my daughter on smartphones and social media. She kept saying that she had got hers too young and that it just brings a load of trouble. It had brought a load of trouble. I am curious to know the views of the witnesses on smartphones and age. The digital age of consent is 16, yet we hear from CyberSafeKids that children have smartphones from as young as six and that just shy of 50% of them are in bedrooms on their own with their smartphones at the age of ten. I have heard everything the witnesses have said regarding AI and the access it has. It is a very wise point. I am curious to know the views of the witnesses. Would they allow their children to have a smartphone and, if so, at what age? I would also like to know their views on social media.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a similar question, so I may as well ask it now. There is definitely a generational issue with social media and smartphones. I am aware that times have changed. Sometimes kids of a certain age, when they are going into their teenage years, need phones. For example, they may arrive at the house before a parent gets home from work and need a phone to check in. Times are different. There is a need at times for kids to have access to be able to get in contact.

What do the witnesses think some of the solutions are? I do not think it is a solution for us to say that phones should be banned altogether. I do not think this is ever the solution to anything. Given that we are of a different generation we might think we have good ideas and good solutions but we are not the people engaged on a daily basis. Do the witnesses have any ideas? We are looking at this area and we will be doing a report on it. It would be good to have practical ideas or suggestions from the experience of the witnesses. As the questions I have asked are similar to those of Senator Seery Kearney, I wanted them to be taken together.

Mia Harding

I originally got a phone at five years of age because my parents are not together. It was for when I wanted to speak to my mum when I was at my dad's house. I really do wish I did not get social media as young as I did. I was around seven or eight, and it definitely had a big impact on my mental and physical health. They were affected in quite different ways. Kids get phones too young now. You do need a phone for safety, and that is something I 100% agree with. I have a brother who is four. I do not think he should get a phone until he is entering secondary school. I know that in primary schools it is more common for children to have phones.

I recently noticed that there are different phone brands you can buy that only let children have the FaceTime and Messages apps, with no games, social media or anything. There should be more awareness about these types of phones if people do want to get their young child a phone so they do not have access to social media. It has many different impacts, and it is in the Pieces of Us report. There should be more awareness of this.

Alicia Kellett

As someone who got a phone at 11, I definitely think, as Mia said, it impacted on my mental health a lot. Thanks to my mam, I had an app that would lock it at a certain time. I had three hours of screen time until I was 13, and it also locked at 9 p.m. If I went to a shopping centre near where I live, the phone showed my exact location and I could not turn it off. If my phone's battery died or I lost it, my mam would still know where I was. I thank her a lot because without all of this, it would have impacted my mental health and definitely my physical health a lot more than it did.

Many children are now up till 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. scrolling on their phones. As a teenager, I am definitely one of those. I do not think primary school children should have phones until sixth class. As Mia said, nowadays they are very unaware of the dangers of social media and what to do and what to expect. The thought of freedom for these kids, and having the social media they have, pushes them to push the boundaries with their parents and perhaps break some regulations. Even going back to the topic of pornography, they do not know about this or expect it. I will not name social media sites, but people could try to text you and speak to you. Because you are so young, you do not expect what they are saying and you tell them what to do. They could be older than you and you think that an adult has more power than a child so they could take advantage of the child.

Luke Fagan

There have been examples of phones and people needing them for safety or to tell their parents they are at home. There is something I feel very strongly about that has not been mentioned yet. I have been volunteering with another group for about two years. It has to do with individuals who are visually impaired, perhaps with no vision or who are partially blind. They use technology, phones and AI for absolutely everything. It is astonishing how they do it. The phone speaks out to them and guides them through everything. The fact they are able to use their phones brings them joy and allows them to do so much more. They had a talent show a few months ago and all of these young people were able to make songs and write up lyrics and chords with the AI on their phones. It brought them so much joy and happiness. They had all of their families there and everyone who worked with them along the way. This is a great thing with AI and phones. When people look at AI we always speak about the negative parts of it, but there are many positives to AI and this one should be mentioned more and spoken about.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

In my defence, there will be a motion in the Seanad tomorrow on smartphones and social media and I will have a line in it about assistive technologies and the benefits of them.

Faith Langdon

I want to go back to Alicia's point on young people having the freedom of social media, even going as far as making videos and sending little messages and not thinking about the future. They post something because it is funny, but in years to come they will realise that all of the videos posted on social media are there and they have no access to them. Having social media monitored by a parent or guardian is very important. We never know who is watching the videos or reading the messages. It is very important to have them monitored as often as possible.

Karolina Byrne

As a teenager, I think that social media is a nuisance. When I got my first phone, I was only allowed to have a small Nokia phone until I was 13. Then I got a phone from my godmother. I was going into secondary school at the time and it was important that I had a phone. At that time, there were a lot of things I did not know about social media because I was stuck in Covid and not at school. People do not know much about social media and they are doing things they should not be doing. My younger sister was never given the same treatment as me.

She should have been treated the same because social media is such a bad place.

An Cathaoirleach

As politicians, we agree on social media. I always describe it as a necessary evil in our lives. I would not have it if I could avoid it. However, the point Luke made is really good, to be fair, because there are some good aspects.

Sinead Murray

Regarding what was said about an age restriction on social media, most social media require an age of 13 and over but there is nothing to confirm you are 13. On one platform for videos, you have to show ID to prove you are over a certain age. Why can it not be like that for everything? I do not know the required ages for all social media but it is 13 and over for Instagram. However, how can an eight-year-old download it without being asked whether he or she is actually 13? Showing ID to prove you are a certain age or some means of proving your age should be required to access social media, just so we will know that really young kids will not see fake content or material that is not completely true that can completely damage their mental health. An ID system to prove you are a certain age would benefit.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a great idea because it would confirm you are who you say you are. There is a huge issue with troll accounts, people who are not actually real and all the rest of it.

Bel Nabulele

Quarantine during Covid made everyone get a phone because you needed one or some sort of device to go to class. I do not believe electronic devices are the problem so much as the regulation of social media, as other speakers have said. I was on my first social media platform when I was seven. It is really easy to set up once you see other people do it. It would be good if social media platforms checked ID to make sure users are not really young children. The same applies to AI. Let me refer to an idea that just popped into my head: just as there is a YouTube for everyone and YouTube Kids, there could be a child-friendly version of AI to make sure what children see is appropriate to their age group and not what they should not be seeing.

Princess Ogumefu

Everyone is talking about age restrictions. Even with age restrictions, there is an issue. Where I watch all my shows, there is an age restriction of 12. When I click on a movie and start watching, all of a sudden a scene can make me ask whether it is really 12-friendly. We need to second-guess ourselves and ask whether the content is really for people of 12 or 15 and whether it should be for people of 18.

I was around five when I got a phone. The only thing I knew how to operate on it was Bubble Shooter, a game in which you just sent a few balls away and they boomed. Then, of course, as you got older you learned about Snapchat, which has the add button. You find yourself adding away, wondering who you are adding, and then, all of a sudden, a pop-up jumpscare. It is important to really know what you are getting your child into. It is so easy for parents, when they see their children crying, to give them a phone to watch Cocomelon. It is really important to know the dangers. There are advantages and disadvantages.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

This is an extremely interesting discussion with a clearly articulate group. Having phones very young and being on social media was not to their detriment in some respects.

An Cathaoirleach

Very true.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I agree with all of them.

Esther Tamardoe

I got a phone only when I was 12. Even at that, it was given to me every afternoon at 2 p.m. and taken off me at 7 p.m. My school is an iPad school so we did not exactly need phones for zooming. We used Teams on our iPads and that would be it. Growing up as a child, I did not have a phone. My sister had one “Nokia blockia”. You would listen to some songs on that and play a few little card games. That was basically my childhood, along with watching TV. My little brother, however, is braindead because he plays Fortnite on a day-to-day basis and watches useless YouTube videos on gamers. He has just not had the childhood experience I had. He hardly goes outside and is basically inside all day. It is really important that adults restrict their children in some of these areas so they will experience everything previous generations experienced.

An Cathaoirleach

There definitely needs to be a balance.

Sienna Shackleton

I think I was too young when I got a phone; I was six. It was a very basic little phone and it had buttons on it. Oh my God, it was the light of my life for a little while. I was not a perfect kid. I remember getting a tablet when growing up and progressing to a phone. I remember the little Apple thing that could play music. It could reel off thousands of songs and you could download everything you could ever want to listen to. It was amazing. You suddenly start growing up and you see other kids who have screen phones, games and social media and you slowly begin to ask why you do not have these yet and why you are being left out. I had arguments with my parents about this. They were bad arguments. I was not a perfect kid and I went behind their backs and did all sorts of things that should never be admitted. I get it now when my mother says to me, “It is always the phone’s fault; that is the thing that is giving you the headache and that is why you cannot sleep at night.” I understand what she says now because she is right.

I am worried about my godson getting a phone. He is three and I am worried about him watching TV too much with a device in his hand that has no restrictions because his parents do not know how to put restrictions on it. I am going back to the issue of education but if there were something available stating how you should set up your child’s phone and have it do anything you require it to do, how to restrict it, how to add guidelines and how to ensure the child cannot access anything inappropriate, it would be really helpful. Information that children can access within seconds, at the click of a button, is a cause for danger. I do not think there is any way of saying it is not.

I am quite negative about AI in general. I can go onto Snapchat and have an artificial conversation. I tried it and it felt like talking to a real person. It felt like I was having a social interaction with one of my friends. That is how real it was to me. That is scary and worrying because I do not want my family to grow up on that, saying they do not need a conversation with their best friends as they have their AI. That is not a real person. Using it will limit people. It will limit their social interaction, increase social anxiety, increase stress levels in public places and make people unable to do something like we are doing now. This is something that we should continue all the time, forever. I feel AI will be nothing but limiting if it is not regulated in the right sense and by the right people.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

In France, there is a law that devices must have parental controls set as the default. We should have that here.

Toby Murphy

I would like to refer to what Bel Nabulele and Sinead Murray said about age restrictions and identification in that regard. A specific worry I have about AI is sexual violence online, specifically grooming. Older men or women can go online, on Google or Google Chrome, get photos of young teenage boys or girls and portray themselves as them. They can go onto Snapchat and talk to young people.

It hurts me to say it, but it is so easy for people to get sexually assaulted online from the way AI is progressing and its technological advancements. It is so easy. You will not know who you are talking to anymore. You will not be able to tell if it is an actual teenage boy you are talking to, or a 50-year-old man behind a phone screen or laptop.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a very good point.

Rachel Fleming

A lot of us probably did not get phones until later than kids do nowadays. Through all of history, I suppose there has been a fad toy. Nowadays there is no such thing; it is just whatever app is on the go, which highlights the big issue. We also need to consider that children cannot consent to anything they are posting. They cannot properly say they want to give their image out to the world like this, and have it there forever.

An Cathaoirleach

Another excellent point.

Bel Nabulele

I agree there should be parental monitoring when you are on social media and when you are using AI and with all of the regulations. There should also be more education for young people on AI, to talk about how to use it and how not to use it, who made it and who gets the benefit of using the content. I come from a big family. I have ten siblings and my mum is a single mother so it would be impossible for her to mind all of us until we are adults in terms of using our phones or whatever.

On the subject of verification for social media platforms and AI, young people are smart and they evolve and will figure ways around IDs. They can get fake IDs fairly easily. They will figure out ways to go around things. Everything that has been said is important, but we also need to emphasise the importance of education in AI, so young people can regulate and figure out what is right and wrong for themselves.

An Cathaoirleach

This has been a really good discussion and an excellent meeting. I thank all the witnesses for coming in and engaging so well and giving their opinions. All the work that was done in advance of today and the engagement with the questions and back forth have been really good.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the committee for the invitation to meet with the young people. It has also been a great honour for me just to listen to them. I thank my team, Ms McKenna, Ms Kiernan and Ms Kelly, who helped prepare the young people, but the young people know what they are at. They are not afraid. They have done the research and the work, met with each other and considered the questions put to them. I have listened to some of the stuff brought up by different people. We talked about racism at a deep level, and of real examples of it. We have talked about microaggressions and explained those. There are teachers out there who are being racist. They might not intend it, but we have to stop that. Ignorance is not an excuse for it. We need to change that direction. We have talked about the need for more than just anti-racism policies. Young people are aware of racism, sexism, body shaming, sexuality, religion and all of that unkindness. We need to change that within our education system as well and to move forward on those.

We also talked about whether schools are listening to the answers these young people are putting forward, and they are not. Schools are not listening as much as they should do. One thing I have been positive about pushing forward is the concept of the parent-student charter, which is supposed to come into education. It will now probably be called the community charter, which will allow children, parents and all school staff to talk together and create a charter within the school. Children and young people can decide what emphases they want the school to take and get a report every year on whether it is going in the direction they want. It will make a difference when we can hear from the children on a regular basis and not just on a tokenistic one. Those sorts of things will hopefully start to happen.

The young people were also very real about the sensitivities of sexuality and comments from teachers, and the one strike and you are out approach. Some teachers have more than five strikes with those sorts of comments. With peers too, sexual and relationship education needs to be more real and to start earlier. We need to move into a situation where children are being taught in appropriate language from the earliest possible age. We are starting the legislation for that. That legislation has to be enacted and followed through in a way that schools cannot opt out of it. It is an important move forward. Hearing about children on boards of management within ETBs is a great step forward as well.

The young people talked about misogyny and sexism. Senator Clonan was right. Last year's results from the CSO showed that 68% of women between the ages of 18 and 24 have experienced sexual harassment and some sort of sexual assault in their life. The term "in their life" is used but they are only 24 years old. It is not even a lifetime. That is almost 70%, which is a huge number. With men the number is lower, but it is happening so we cannot leave consent discussions until the age of 15, 16 or 17.

Even I am shocked that so many people have phones before the age of ten. If your phone is your main form of interaction, then consent needs to be talked about before you get your phone, at whatever age that is, so it needs to start in primary school. As the Senator said, consent is about everything you do in life. It is about having a cup of coffee or a different piece of food or borrowing clothes. It then broadens out into relationships and sexuality.

I think the young people have everything nailed down. We need to listen to them. This committee has shown great foresight in bringing them in, and I again thank it for that. It is appreciated.

An Cathaoirleach

I again thank members and the witnesses for coming in. I propose that we publish the opening statement to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.37 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 April 2024.