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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 2024

Delivery of Health Services for Patients with Long Covid: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the delivery of health services for patients with long Covid. The committee last considered this matter at the end of 2022. Today's meeting will be divided into two sessions. We will first hear from representatives from Long Covid Advocacy Ireland and we will then hear from the HSE.

Before I invite our witnesses in, I wish to inform members that an updated statement has been issued by the HSE in respect of the extension of the long Covid scheme for healthcare workers.

I would have to agree with the Fórsa statement that the temporary extension announced today provides a much-needed breathing space for conciliation and will provide some peace of mind for health workers. The question of those who are not health workers and the challenges they are facing is a matter that needs to be addressed by the Government.

To commence the committee's consideration of the matter of long Covid, I am pleased to welcome from Long Covid Advocacy Ireland, Ms Sarah O'Connell, Ms Julie Corey and Ms Imelda O'Donovan, and Ms Pamela Morrison who is joining the meeting remotely via MS Teams.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make her, him or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name or entity. Therefore if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such directives. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I would also like to point out that the identity of any person affected by long Covid should not be directly or indirectly revealed.

I would like to remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to the constitutional requirement. Therefore any member who attempts to participate from outside the precinct will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams, prior to making their contribution, that they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

The opening statement provided by Long Covid Ireland is too lengthy to present in its entirety at the meeting, but I invite Ms O'Connell to make her opening remarks for seven to eight minutes before the discussion. I have been informed that some members may have to leave due to other business, but there will be a flow of people coming in and out of the meeting. Senator Black has said she has other business this morning and asked if one of the members would let her in to speak earlier. Deputy Gino Kenny also has another appointment, so he may have to leave. I am sure that will be the case with other members.

I welcome all the witnesses this morning and I call Ms O'Connell.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I am going to remove my mask as it is difficult to speak with it on. Honourable members of the Joint Committee on Health, I am a co-founder of Long Covid Advocacy Ireland and the Irish representative for Long Covid Kids. The Cathaoirleach has introduced my colleagues. As members all know, long Covid is defined as the continuation or development of new persistent symptoms following a Covid infection. While we would all like to talk about the pandemic in the past tense, the reality is that it is ongoing and long Covid is the outstanding crisis that we have not dealt with. There are people in Ireland who developed long Covid following an infection during the first wave who have had no recovery. Some continue to worsen. While vaccination has mitigated the effects of acute Covid, due to the high reinfection rate, people continue to join our ranks, shocked that long Covid could happen to them. As they were young, fit and healthy, they were told Covid was just a cold and they could vaccinate and relax.

In preparing for this hearing, our inbox was flooded with emails from previously healthy people of all ages whose busy professional and family lives have been utterly devastated, and not just from the direct effects of the illness which destroyed their health almost overnight but also from the trauma of trying to access social, financial and, most important, medical supports and being met with misunderstanding, minimisation and often dismissal and disbelief.

This committee showed considerable understanding of long Covid before, so I would like to update members on what we are currently facing. We are asking for a comprehensive review of all aspects of long Covid management, with a particular focus on the services provided to both adults and children under the outdated interim model of care, education about the condition from both a medical and public awareness perspective, how we support sufferers and how we can reduce impact from this point onwards. Patient involvement is absolutely essential at every point, supported by comprehensive, standardised data collection.

In October 2022 this committee held a session on long Covid during which those tasked with providing healthcare services told members that knowledge around long Covid was still emerging and evolving and that the services would develop and improve accordingly. For the most part, that has not happened. The interim model of care is now 31 months old and it has not been updated. There remains no PPI and no patient involvement in the clinics. Clinics remain understaffed, under resourced and are not fully operational. The clinic, as a centre of excellence, a one-stop shop as envisaged and described to this committee, has not materialised. Thousands of research papers, including some internationally acclaimed Irish research, have now been published on long Covid and a new understanding is rapidly emerging yet this not seem to translate to knowledgeable, informed care on the ground.

Clinical guidelines, as promised in this room, in 2022 and then recommended by HIQA in 2023 have yet to materialise. To the best of our knowledge, the only long Covid education given by the HSE to GPs consisted of instructions of how to refer to clinics. In late 2023, four years into the pandemic, education from the ICGP to their members consisted of a two-page article advising GPs seeing long Covid patients to assess mental health impact of lockdowns and refer patients to living well programmes and online CBT while reiterating that there are no evidence-based treatments for long Covid. This entire approach is unacceptable and insulting. Patients expect and deserve much more.

Long Covid is a multi-system, neuroimmune, inflammatory disease yet many are still being refused medications that will not cure their long Covid but could help manage their symptoms and improve quality of life. At the same meeting, the members were confidently told that most people recover over time. However, as there appears to be very limited data collected by the clinics, recovery trajectory is difficult to substantiate. Of course some recover, but anecdotally we know that others stop attending if they view the limited services offered by the clinics as unhelpful. Some have been discharged still unwell but told there is nothing else the clinic can offer. Others improve but remain well below their previous quality of life and some relapse spontaneously or post reinfection.

The fact that some recover over time should not in any way be used to justify failure to provide adequate treatments and support to those who have not been so fortunate. The lack of universal recognition and understanding directly harms patients. I have permission to share the following: Anne had Covid in early 2022 and was hospitalised for six months. After infection symptoms persisted and she was diagnosed with severe POTS, a condition involving a large increase in heart rate upon sitting or standing triggering debilitating symptoms. This is common with long Covid. She had multiple episodes of dizziness, visual disturbances and loss of consciousness per day. POTS experts are emphatic POTS is not deconditioning. However, Anne's doctor believed she was deconditioned and prescribed regular movement. Anne was using a commode and to get her to mobilise staff removed access despite the risk of injury. For five days Anne had 47 POTS episodes while trying to get to the toilet and was covered in bruises. After pleading she was given back the commode at night but long staff delays in bringing it resulted in frequent bed wetting and soiling. A physiotherapist prescribed bed exercises. Anne told us that afterwards she would feel worse but the team seemed to know nothing of post-exertion malaise, PEM, one of the most common long Covid symptoms and ignored this. The doctor insisted she mobilise daily and she deteriorated until she could not even use a wheelchair. She lost 32 pounds in the hospital and left there more unwell. During those six months no clinician suggested the possibility of long Covid despite obvious signs.

In 2022, NICE stated exercise was not a treatment for long Covid. The exercises were clearly making Anne worse yet they persisted. Today Anne is no better. She cannot move without triggering her POTS, she is confined to bed with no quality of life and medical appointments are almost impossible. Two weeks ago Anne was finally diagnosed after two years of illness. How would she be today diagnosed her long Covid and managed it appropriately?

Those like Anne who suffer from of long Covid are often invisible. Too sick to attend clinics and too sick to be heard, they simply disappear. In one tragic case in the south west, gaslighting of a woman's severe symptoms despite her considerable attempts at self-advocacy, led to severe depression and ultimately suicide.

Long Covid like many autoimmune diseases disproportionately affects women. We all know Ireland's dismal track record in women's health. Medical gender bias is well-established with women’s symptoms often dismissed as hysteria or anxiety. One lady described her first appointment at a long Covid clinic. She said: "He did not want me to speak. He was visibly frustrated throughout, sighing when I spoke and cutting me off. He kept repeating, 'I can clearly see you have psychological issues'. My mother tried to speak up for me but he kept speaking over her."

Unfortunately children are also infected. In October 2022, the committee was told by the HSE that children recover faster than adults and that existing pathways could manage pediatric long Covid and, therefore there was no need for specialised services. Parents of children who have been sick for years would disagree. Kate got Covid at 14 years of age in 2022.

She was previously healthy but developed long Covid symptoms and was bed-bound for five months. She spends 50% of her daytime hours in bed and has missed 80% of school. EEGs confirm that Covid has impacted Kate neurologically, triggering subclinical seizures. She experiences profound fatigue, migraine, dizziness, loss of vision and joint pain. She has missed her junior certificate and is unlikely to sit her leaving. For almost a full year, Kate received no medical care. Pain from migraines woke her six or seven times a night. She was told by her GP to take paracetamol, eat fermented foods and not to worry. She saw a public consultant, who asked her if there was something she was anxious about but offered no help. Long Covid had been officially recognised for two years when Kate became ill, yet none of her doctors recognised the obvious signs. She has missed every major milestone of young adulthood. Her life has been obliterated. She is surviving, not living. Kate's story is not unique. Many parents have been given recommendations, such as maintaining previous routines, exercising and pushing through symptoms that contradict best practices. We are aware of the HSE plan for a paediatric clinic for fatigue-based illnesses. While we welcome services, the term "long Covid" is not being used. As far as we are aware, again, there was no PPI in its development.

When it comes to financial support for those with long Covid, we are also failing. The special leave with pay, SLWP, financial support scheme for healthcare workers who contracted Covid on the front line, pre-vaccine, without adequate personal protective equipment, PPE, was initially stopped on 31 March. Yesterday, it was extended by three months. While this is welcome, a longer term plan is desperately needed. Our former Taoiseach recently claimed that these workers likely contracted Covid at home, despite the country being in lockdown. A front-line worker, who may lose her home as a result, described it as a middle finger from the Government. We have gone from clapping our heroes for going to work while we stayed at home to making them homeless. Why would any front-line workers risk their health again knowing this is how they will be treated? Ireland and Greece remain the only two countries in Europe that do not recognise long Covid as an occupational illness. Long Covid is not recognised as a disability, hindering access to reasonable accommodations and making a return to work in any sector difficult if not impossible.

In the words of HIQA, the best way to prevent long Covid is to prevent Covid. Unfortunately, we are now in a phase of personal risk assessment, which is impossible when the risk of long Covid has not been communicated. Long Covid patients frequently report a deterioration in their health following reinfection. The removal of mask mandates in hospitals removed one layer of protection and made healthcare less accessible as a result. Access to vaccination, particularly non-mRNA vaccination, has become convoluted. As with all medications, vaccines carry risks of adverse reaction. While the vast majority of long Covid occurs post infection, those who developed long Covid-like symptoms as a result of vaccination have yet to be formally acknowledged by the Government, thus subjecting them to disbelief and derision. We also question the advice to stop antigen testing. Without a positive test, diagnosis of long Covid becomes much harder, the prevalence of long Covid becomes more elusive to measure and, most importantly, patients are unable to access advice and support that can stabilise their condition and aid recovery.

Covid infection and reinfection are not benign. Mitigation, such as clean air in hospitals, schools and other public places, could drastically reduce transmission. After healthcare workers, teachers have the second highest rate of long Covid. Should long Covid prevalence continue to rise, a recent report estimated that by 2030, the annual cost to the UK economy could be £4 billion. Clean air is an investment in our future from both a population health and economic perspective.

Long Covid is a vast issue. In a short space of time, it is difficult to talk to all the areas where improvement is needed. We would be delighted to answer any questions members have or expand on any of the points raised.

By way of explanation for those watching at home, we have been asked by people in the audience who have long Covid and the witnesses, who are highly vulnerable and open to the effects of infection, to wear masks during the meeting. Members will take off their masks when they put questions to the witnesses.

I thank the Chair. I welcome Ms O'Connell and her colleagues from Long Covid Advocacy Ireland. I have to leave at around 10.30 a.m. to go to the Seanad for a matter and to chair that session. I will be back after that.

The testimonies LCAI provided this morning and in its submission are quite difficult. I can only imagine the impact that long Covid has had on sufferers and their families. What sort of numbers of people are we talking about in Ireland? I appreciate not everyone might come to the LCAI but I am sure many people do.

Ms Julia Corey

I can give the Senator a few different estimates we have. The WHO estimates that 10% to 20% of all infections, which includes reinfections, result in long Covid symptoms. If we take the number of reported Covid-19 cases in Ireland to date, and a conservative estimate of 10%, it would mean approximately 350,000 people in Ireland are living with long Covid. There is also significant under-reporting of cases, especially in the past year or two. Until the HIQA review done last year, we also reviewed various international literature items on prevalence. Across seven studies, the range for the prevalence of long Covid was found to be 15.2% to 53.1% in studies based on self-reported data, and from 1.8% to 8.3% in studies concerning those who had a diagnosis or referral of long Covid.

How many of those people are in the LCAI? Does it have a membership list?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

We do not. The team consists of 16 advocates but we do not track the number of people who contact us. We do not have that record.

Are sufferers more predominantly from the earlier waves or from throughout the period of the pandemic? Is long Covid more prevalent from earlier in the pandemic?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

We seem to see a lot of patients from the wild-side period of the pandemic. Anecdotally, we see many patients who are still sick from 2020, but we continue to see new patients with every variant. Research still needs to be done to determine whether newer variants are less likely to result in long Covid.

The HSE will be before the committee later. Its opening statement mentions that its interim model of care "is broadly in line with other models internationally." It further states the HSE has, "Six Long Covid clinics [that] are operational and receiving patients, with each clinic supported by an interdisciplinary team with expertise in the management of Long COVID", that it has filled 53.6 whole-time equivalent posts, and Covid clinics have been established in Beaumont, St. James's, and St. Vincent's hospitals, and Cork, Limerick and Galway university hospitals. How are those clinics operating for the people that contact the LCAI? How are they functioning on the ground?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Unfortunately, the vast majority of patients who contact us have had a negative experience with the clinics. Often, people's main complaint is around the seeing the consultant piece. For example, one woman waited nine months for an appointment with a long Covid clinic. She then had a 15-minute appointment with a doctor, where he quickly focused on cardiac and respiratory issues, when we now know that many neurological issues are emerging with long Covid. Once he ruled that out, he passed her over to support services, including occupational therapy, OT, and physiotherapy.

Most people find they are not being offered any help. It is important to point out that most patients are aware there is no magic or silver bullet, or approved treatment, but a lot can be done as regards symptom management. Patients tell us that the clinics are not helping them, that they have to go privately, and spend a lot of money seeking private care.

Has the LCAI received any testimony, even anecdotally, of people who have had positive experiences and benefited from attending the clinics?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

We have had some positive feedback around some of the support services. For example, one psychologist in one of the clinics has done amazing work in providing support and setting up support groups for patients. We also hear that OT services have been very strong. What is possibly happening, due to the disappointment people are experiencing with the consultant piece, and maybe having no suggestion or action plan from a doctor, is patients are less likely to engage with some of the support services because they are upset with that.

They wonder what the point of it is when there is no main action plan in respect of their symptoms.

Ms O’Connell stated that she has spent hours on the phone with patients listening to stories of disbelief, dismissal, minimisation, misunderstanding and gaslighting. I presume this is from professionals and, perhaps, some family members and work colleagues. How upsetting is this for sufferers?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Most people would say this part of long Covid is almost as bad as the effect on their day-to-day lives. A typical journey is that a patient attends their GP after a few weeks of symptoms and is probably told something like they could just be a bit stressed or anxious or that a bit of the virus is still hanging around. There may then be multiple appointments back and forth to the GP to keep repeating the same concerns, and new symptoms may come along. Eventually, perhaps after months and months, the patient, rather than the GP, brings the idea to the table that it may be long Covid because they have been researching. Sometimes the GP is happy to refer them to a long Covid clinic. Sometimes there is a battle around this for whatever reason. People are reporting gaslighting at every stage of their journey.

Senator Kyne mentioned family members and employers. The issue is there is a trickle down effect from the lack of awareness about long Covid publicly. Family members do not understand why their loved ones are so ill. They hear the GP say the person is perhaps just stressed or anxious. Some of these people are not being taken seriously by their own families.

Different people function differently, and there are very high-functioning individuals. I spoke to a lady from another part of the country who contacted me in advance of this meeting. She used to run marathons and do triathlons. Now she cannot do so. I would call this person highly functioning terms of being energetic prior to Covid. It obviously impacts at different levels and different types of persons. Ms O'Connell said that Ireland and Greece are outliers. How quickly did other countries respond to the reality of long Covid and engage in providing supports?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

We have an example because we have been asked whether there is a country that is getting it right or doing better on this. One Irish patient who is living in France has given us a good insight into the approach there. When she first became sick she saw a consultant every month for the first eight months and now sees him every three months. She has been sick since 2020. There is easy access to a wide variety of supports and services, including physiotherapy, speech and language therapy and access to neurological rehabilitation clinics. A national online GP training programme has been organised by one of the leading long Covid clinicians. In February 2021, very early days, the Government voted long Covid as what is referred to in France as an affection de longue durée, ALD. This status brings much of the same protections as disability status for illness brings here. In France, ALD status acknowledges the illness as a major or long-term illness for which the Government accepts full responsibility for the cost of the person’s care.

France is also trying interventions among the patient community based on the benefits they see on the ground. For example, more and more long Covid patients there are being prescribed oxygen because it seems to help many people. The most prominent long Covid consultant there opened a long Covid clinic in March 2021. Patients go in for the day, have a battery of tests and scans and see a cardiologist, neurologist and neuropsychologist. They have PET scan access. For a whole year, this particular consultant trained doctors and nurses and opened clinics. Today, that consultant is still very engaged in raising awareness.

This example shows clearly that using clinicians in the country who already have the expertise and experience is the easiest way to approach training in the healthcare profession. We cannot say the situation in France is perfect. The person who is living there has pointed this out. Gaps remain in the approach to the children’s service. However, it clearly indicates that France is doing a good job. New Zealand is also doing well in terms of risk assessing the scale of the problem and developing ambitious plans on how to handle it. Victoria is doing well on public awareness campaigns.

I am conscious that Ms Morrison is online. I leave it up to the witnesses as to who wants to speak on particular questions.

I welcome all of the witnesses. Ms O’Connell mentioned that the previous session the committee had on long Covid took place in October 2022. This is correct. At that meeting, the HSE informed us the knowledge about long Covid was still emerging and evolving, as Ms O’Connell pointed out. The HSE stated that over time the services provided to sufferers would develop and improve. This was the commitment given. Will the witnesses tell us what is their experience of this from their own perspective and from that of the sufferers with whom they engage? Have they seen developments and improvements since we dealt with the issue in October 2022?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

In the phone calls we get from parents of children with long Covid, we hear that there is the odd GP who has knowledge and is aware and does their best to support the patient. It is the same with adults attending. There is a little bit more awareness but not a large amount. The advice we are worried about, which is continuing, is people being told to push through their symptoms and parents being told their children should attend school no matter how they feel and that they should exercise. The interim model of care has not been updated and we see this. As we said in our statement, GPs have not received training. They were sent a one-page document on the list of clinics and how to refer patients. We do not see major differences to be honest.

Ms Julia Corey

I can give some statistics on recovery. A 2023 study by Tala Ballouz et al reports that 22.9% of individuals infected with SARS-CoV-2 were not fully recovered six months after infection. They also found the proportion of individuals who had an infection who reported not having recovered decreased to 18.5% after 12 months and 17.2% after 24 months. While some people report recovery it is very much the minority. Many of these people are still ill.

I thank Ms Corey and Ms O'Connell. In her opening statement Ms O’Connell said that many of the long Covid clinics remain unstaffed or understaffed. There are staff but there is understaffing in most, if not all, of them. I am looking at the briefing document we got from the HSE, which speaks about the eight post-acute Covid clinics and the six long Covid clinics, and there is one neurology clinic which essentially is a neurology unit that takes referrals of patients diagnosed with long Covid. They are referred because of symptoms associated with long Covid. The HSE states that there are 65 approved posts for long Covid, across all of the long Covid clinics, the post-acute clinics and the neurology clinic in St. James's Hospital. When we speak about understaffing what is it based on? Is it based on the commitment that was given that has not been met? Is it based on the experience of sufferers engaging with these clinics? The HSE is coming before the committee and we want to be able to put these questions directly to its representatives.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

In one case we were told there was no psychologist. The idea is that all of the units have a psychologist, an occupational therapist and a physiotherapist. In one case a particular clinic did not have a psychologist. The occupational therapist in one clinic left and that gap remained for more than six months. This is what we mean. In 2022 the HSE spoke about a one-stop-shop. Because so many of the symptoms are neurological, there is a big focus in the clinics on respiratory and cardiac. Having one neurologist in St. James’s Hospital will not be able to respond to these needs.

With regard to the centre of excellence and the one-stop shop that was promised, Ms O'Connell has said this is not in place. I do not see it mentioned anywhere in the opening statement from the HSE so I assume it does not exist and has not been progressed.

What was Ms O'Connell's understanding of what that one-stop shop was meant to do?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

That is a good question. I think we, and other patients, had envisaged a lot more thorough investigation. Patients report to us that, at best, they receive blood tests. Unfortunately, no clinics are currently offering remote appointments, yet there is rarely a physical examination during the appointment. In one case a patient had blood tests that were more than six months old and the doctor was happy that they were relevant enough. There is a lack of investigation and obviously we do not want patients to be over-tested and money to be spent for no reason but one patient in her 20s was told she was too young. She had palpitations and tachycardia and was told she was too young to warrant investigation. Then later she was privately diagnosed with myocarditis and pericarditis, which are life-threatening conditions.

What we had envisaged was more investigations and the provision of symptom management. We know there is no one cure or medication but there is a lot that can be done to improve quality of life.

I thank Ms O'Connell for that. She mentioned GPs and in my first question about improvements, she said there are examples of GPs who have done the research in this area and are responding very well but she also said is not the case across all GPs. Has Long Covid Advocacy Ireland had any engagement with the Irish College of General Practitioners, ICGP?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes, does Ms Morrison want to take that question?

Ms Pamela Morrison

I contacted the ICGP early last year. We wanted to collaborate with it with regard to the experts in long Covid, generally, or the patients because we are up on all of the research, etc. We were told the ICGP was working on some training and that it would be rolled out. We were very keen to collaborate. We wanted patient and public involvement in research, PPI, engagement. The ICGP said it had PPI engagement from the HSE but later informed us that PPI engagement and the health and social care professions, HSCPs, had been stood down. We were then told there was training that would be published in an online GP magazine which we could not get access to through the ICGP, so we contacted the publisher. We got a copy of the training and essentially, as Ms O'Connell alluded to in her opening statement, the training was predominantly around cognitive behavioural therapy, CBT, was psychological and around how to refer. It was not actually what I would consider to be expert knowledge and it was not being translated onto the ground.

From my own personal experience, our immune systems have been battered so when we were made aware a vaccine called Novavax was available within the country we all wanted to get it because it was non-mRNA. We did not want our systems to be overly confused. It was a nightmare to try to get access to that vaccine. I spoke to my doctor, who had never heard of it. I spoke to my pharmacist, who had never heard of it. We had to chase down where the Novavax was via the HSE Live system. Many people who have long Covid are immunocompromised. Many had to wait from October last year to early this year to get Novavax and people who could not really travel had to travel from places such as Waterford to Limerick to get a vaccination. I hope that gives the Deputy some idea.

It does and the committee should probably write to the ICGP to get an update from it on what training it has provided and pass that on to the witnesses to see if more can be done because that is an important area.

My last question concerns the recognition of long Covid as a long-term illness. Yesterday, the Government announced the temporary special scheme for paid leave for healthcare workers would be extended beyond March by a couple of months. The Government said initially that while the scheme was meant to end at the end of March, long Covid would simply be treated as ordinary sick leave. As we know, ordinary sick leave is very limited. How important is it that a proper long-term scheme is put in place or that it is recognised as a long-term illness? What recommendations has Long Covid Advocacy Ireland made in that regard? I will leave it at that then and I thank the group for its presentations.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I thank the Deputy. While healthcare workers were relieved in one way to hear about the extension of the scheme, it is imperative the HSE and Department of Health work together with the unions immediately to agree an appropriate longer-term plan. The WRC is actually meeting today. The healthcare workers have been on four cliff edges, repeatedly, over the last while. Short-term extension after short-term extension means they are living in limbo. They are having to repeatedly use their very limited energy to lobby their unions and politicians to fight each time. It is torture for people. For example, there was a case of one woman for whom the scheme did end this time on 31 March, as opposed to the previous times where it was extended just in time. It was only just extended yesterday. On 1 April at 9.01 a.m. one healthcare worker received a request from her manager at work to provide a medical certificate. That will tell the Deputy the pressure healthcare workers are under once that scheme ends.

I thank Ms O'Connell.

Deputy Harkin wants to come in. I will try to bring her in at the end if there is time, if that is okay. I am conscious we have split the meeting in half. Deputy Shortall is next.

Good morning everyone and I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Certainly, when I was doing some research on this issue I found it very frustrating because so little official data is available from the hospitals providing the clinics or from the HSE itself. I can only imagine how much more frustrating it must be for the witnesses. Last month, I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister, which was referred to the HSE, asking about data related to a whole lot of aspects of the operation of the clinics and numbers and I am waiting on all of that. The reply I received was:

I wish to advise we have contacted the hospitals providing long Covid and post-acute Covid clinics in relation to the information which you are seeking. Unfortunately, we have been advised by the hospitals that this patient-level data is not collected and measured.

We all know that what gets measured gets managed. That is at the root of a lot of the problems with the official approach to addressing the issue of long Covid, that is, that very little data is available to us. The HSE and the hospitals concerned do not seem to be particularly interested in that and the committee will raise that issue with them when they come in. From our guests' perspective, what are the key things on which we need to have figures and data to give us a better handle on this issue?

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

First of all, data is key. From the Deputy's parliamentary questions we can ascertain a certain amount of data is being recorded but it is largely around the number of patients attending, the waiting lists, the staffing and the operational hours. Information regarding comprehensive patient data does not seem to be captured. I refer to things like the onset of symptoms, from what wave of Covid the symptoms started or whether it was due to vaccine injury. Moving on, there is the severity of symptoms, the duration of symptoms and what constitutes recovery. Do we have an actual definition of what recovery is? Does it mean going back to the person's health status as it was pre-Covid and is that uniform across all the clinics? How long does it take to get there and what is the trajectory? While they tell us that it is positive, as we do not have the data how do we have evidence that is happening, apart from anecdotally?

If we have comprehensive data - also including stuff like how it is impacting employment and how many people are able to return to work, how many people need to access disability allowance or invalidity pension and how many people have been forced to retire - these are all points that will inform us.

If we have that comprehensive information to see where the trajectories are, then we can plan our services to respond to our current needs and the projected needs. Without that vital information, everything else is anecdotal. There is an incredible opportunity here, particularly for people affected in the early stage of the pandemic. We have been keeping records of our symptoms because we did not know what was happening; nobody did. There is a massive amount of information and data available but nobody has been asking for it.

In addition, nobody in the clinics has been asking for feedback from patients. We talk about PPI and valuing the lived experience as is in the Sláintecare model, but that is not happening on the ground. When we talk about data, we are also looking for an opportunity to give feedback to the clinics. That should be fairly standard. Someone may be self-discharged or discharged by the clinic. Some people simply do not show up anymore and that could be for a variety of reasons. That might well be because the patient is too ill to attend or is disillusioned by the service they are being offered. We need to be able to capture that and ask the person why they have not been attending and then track when they are discharged if their symptoms relapse.

The one thing we know about long Covid is that it is episodic in nature. It is very unpredictable. The symptoms tend to wax and wane and there are nuances of symptoms. Just as somebody thinks they have recovered, very often the rug is pulled from underneath them and they are back with new symptoms. We need to be following the patterns to see what is happening.

Obviously, there is a considerable lack of patient data. We have been able to get our hands on the basic data on staffing of clinics. It would seem that most of the hospitals have between four and five staff associated with their clinic. However, the opening times of the clinics range from two and a half to four hours per week across all the hospitals. That is a very limited time window for clinics to be operating. What is happening in that regard? I think there are between four and five members of staff per clinic. Would they all be on duty at the same time? Why are the opening hours so restricted?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

We do not know. We would like the clinics to be answerable regarding how their budget is being spent. They have been given money to spend on their service. The Limerick clinic was one of the last ones to open. It runs one clinic every second week and can only see two to three patients per clinic, which means it is seeing four to six patients in a month, which is just astounding. We have heard feedback that Limerick has no consultant in place. As the Deputy's question suggests, from patients' reports we can see there is no consistency in how these clinics are being run. The majority of the time things like OT sessions are done online. It just seems to be very much up to each service as to whether all the staff are there on the day and how things run. We do not know why they are not running more regularly.

Limerick has been in the news a lot for some time. I had a question on the number of people on waiting lists and so on. I was told that, in Limerick, nobody is on a waiting list and yet there is a six-month wait time for urgent cases and for non-urgent cases. That logically suggests-----

Ms Sarah O'Connell

If people are being seen, I am not sure how they could be------

How there could be nobody on the waiting list. It again points to the dearth of data and the difficulty of doing any kind of analysis on this.

What would be best practice for how the clinics should operate, including the staffing complement and the issues they would address with patients?

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

We have been talking about identifying one of the clinics and we have devised a proposal for it. When we are talking about the one-stop shop and a centre of excellence, and that is the goal for all the clinics, our proposal is to start with one rather than trying to do the whole lot together. We have identified one of the clinics where we think this could work if the clinicians were willing to work with us. It would have to have considerable patient involvement and working with LCAI as well. That is key to this. We need to look at where we are now. What do we know? What are the services being provided? Where do we want to go to? What are the gaps? We need to conduct that type of review in one of the clinics and then take it from there to identify the steps we need to take to bridge the gap between where we are and where we want to be.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I would add to that that we should pilot that clinic as best practice and then look to extending that across the other clinics, having a consistent approach.

My final question is about children. No service seems to be available for children at the moment. The attitude seems to be that children do not get long Covid. Have many people contacted LCAI about children who have the symptoms of long Covid?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I have been involved in the long Covid kids charity since 2022, before we founded LCAI. Since then, I have been speaking to parents of children with long Covid. The official line has been that because the Government believes long Covid is so rare in children and of short duration - so we were told - there is no a requirement for specialised services. That means parents should take their child to the GP and the GP would then refer on to a general paediatric consultant if necessary.

Before I start talking to these parents, I can predict what they will tell me, which is this desperately sad thing. We hear the same story of their going to the GP with a child who is really unwell with ongoing symptoms. They go back and forth for months only to be that their child is probably just stressed and anxious after the lockdown and should be referred to psychological services. Eventually after pushing and pushing, the parents might get a referral to a paediatric consultant. However, the feedback we have from parents has been that it is then a repeat of the same experience. They have found that the consultant has no knowledge of long Covid, incorrectly believes it is a psychological issue or, most worrying, gives advice inconsistent with what we know about long Covid, which is to get out, get fresh air and exercise, as well as keep going to school.

I will stay on the issue of children for a moment. The last time we spoke, the Government was not accepting or recognising long Covid in children more generally. At the time, the NHS in the UK had just made that move. Does the health system now recognise that long Covid occurs in children?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

The only time we are aware that the Government recognised long Covid in children was when the vaccine programme was rolled out for children, which is obviously quite some time ago. There was a piece on the website to encourage parents to consider vaccination because long Covid did occur in children. It was officially recognised but, unfortunately, it has never been spoken about. The only time it has been spoken about is in response to parliamentary questions TDs have asked.

Is that reflected in clinic provision? There is no space in those clinics for paediatric services.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

The current clinics will not accept anyone under the age of 16. However, we have learned there is a plan to open - it seems to be partially open - a public clinic which will handle children with fatigue-based illnesses, something like-----

That would include anything post-viral, not necessarily long Covid.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

It would be things like long Covid and ME. It would be post-viral, but where fatigue and post-exertional malaise are the issues.

They are not using the term "long Covid", however, and there has also been no PPI involvement. We are concerned about that.

Do we know the location of that?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I believe it is Connolly.

It is Connolly. I will stay on children for a moment. In terms of the more holistic approach around services for children in education and all the things that make up life for a child, are there any support services for children who might be experiencing long Covid who are still expected to go to school every day, etc.?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

No. A big problem is that to our knowledge the Department of Education does not seem to have informed schools or given any direction to them on how to manage this. What we see is that some children are unable to attend school at all, while others can do so on a part-time basis. Some schools are using the reduced hours scheme to deal with children who are attending part-time. I have been informed by Tusla and the Department of Education that this is not an appropriate use of the scheme. In one case, I have a parent who has provided proof of diagnosis and letters from doctors clearly stating that the child is unfit to attend except for two to three days per week depending on how they feel. However, the school is requesting updated letters from the doctor every couple of weeks. It is just not feasible.

Is Ms O'Connell aware of situations where some families are on reduced hours already or where they are requesting this and being denied?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

By virtue of the very nature of long Covid, the children are physically too unwell to go to school.

They are calling in sick. They are effectively not there, but they are not on reduced or part-time hours.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

The reduced hours scheme was set up to cope with things like children who were being disruptive. As a result, it was often the school putting the child on reduced hours. What we had here was the parent contacting the school and saying that their child could only attend maybe two days per week and the school thought it would put them on this scheme. However, it does not fit the scenario. They do not seem to know how to cope with it. There are major inconsistencies. Some families are receiving great support from their schools and some are having a nightmare.

It is a bit of a postcode lottery. As far as Ms O'Connell is aware, there have been no direct recommendations from the Department of Education on how to deal with it.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I do not know. From speaking to Tusla and officials in the Department of Education, it appears that there is complete confusion. We have obviously seen major issues with attendance. I believe the campaign around attendance has caused issues because schools are now really going after attendance. Schools that would have been supportive of parents up until now and had no issue with the reduced timetable are suddenly now asking parents for X, Y and Z. Obviously, we understand that they are concerned about the drop in attendance, but long Covid has to be factored into that. There needs to be a plan for how schools can deal with it.

After Covid, there definitely was a drop in attendance. This was for many. Some children found Covid very difficult. Would Ms O'Connell expect for Tusla to have a role in the decision-making or to be making recommendations to the Department of Education?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Based on my experience with my son and that of other parents, the school needs to report absences to Tusla once the number exceeds 20 days. As soon as there is a valid reason for those absences, and in this case there would be an illness, that is all Tusla is concerned about. That is its role. In our case, the educational welfare officer has actually been very supportive that we have all of our documentation in place. Unfortunately, in some cases, the schools are kind of arguing with Tusla and saying they want X, Y and Z.

I thank Ms O'Connell for that clarity.

I will move on to the occupational injuries scheme. This is an area in which there is already good legislation around supporting people who have contracted illnesses through their workplace. It is a very broad spectrum. It is not that they do not recognise a broad spectrum; it is everything from nystagmus to poisoning. In Ms O'Connell's work, and I presume the witnesses have all had a look at the legislation, is there any particular reason why long Covid would not fit the bill or fit the criteria of the current legislation as written?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I can see none. I do not know if anyone has anything to add. I have not noted anything as to why that would not be the case. As I said, Ireland and Greece are the only countries in Europe not to have done so.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

What we are seeing is that is really impacting employers in terms of employees looking for accommodation so they can get back to work. People with long Covid want to be working and leading normal lives. There are many things employers could be doing in terms of making accommodations for reduced days, times for rest and being flexible when it comes to work time. Unfortunately, because of that lack of a statement around that, it is harder for them to look for those accommodations.

If we were to get recognition, would Ms O'Connell envisage that recognition would be, let us say, pre-availability of the vaccine or that it would be kind of more far reaching than that?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I am sorry; can the Deputy repeat the question?

If there was a recognition of long Covid under the legislation, would Ms O'Connell expect that it would be time limited to before the vaccine was available?

Ms Julia Corey

No.

You would expect it to be along-----

Ms Julia Corey

People are still getting long Covid. Even with the current variants that are circulating, 10% to 20% of all infections are resulting in long Covid. There are new people who are being diagnosed with long Covid every day.

Do we know what the rates are in teachers and medical staff?

Ms Julia Corey

I do not know the-----

I am referring to before those later diagnoses because, obviously, we are not at the height of the pandemic now. I am trying to get a sense of how common it is now to contract.

Ms Julia Corey

I do not have a percentage for the Deputy. The WHO is saying it is still 10% to 20% of all infections. That is regardless of vaccination status. There is some evidence that it marginally reduces the instance of long Covid, but there is nothing really meaningful. This is with the absence of mitigations such as clean air in public buildings, especially like we are seeing in schools. The Department provided CO2 monitors in 2020 or 2021. Parents are reporting that many of those monitors are tucked away in drawers and not being used. Some parents have shared stories. They can send in personal monitors with their child, and they have reported CO2 levels that are more than double or sometimes almost closer to triple the legal limit set out by the Health and Safety Authority, which means that people are constantly being reinfected. We know that reinfections increase the risk of developing long Covid because the damage is cumulative.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I will add to that if I may. We know that after healthcare workers, teachers are the most likely profession to develop long Covid. Obviously, teachers were originally told that children do not transmit Covid. It is important to note that as well.

For clarity, Ms O'Connell is saying that while the vaccine obviously reduces the prevalence of the disease and the possibility of contracting Covid, it does not necessarily reduce a person's likelihood of contracting long Covid in any way.

Ms Julia Corey

The vaccines are great for acute illness and for reducing the severity of symptoms and keeping people out of hospitals. However, really, we do not have the second generation vaccines that are preventing infections yet. They are still great for keeping people out of hospitals but they are not great for preventing transmission. The protection against contracting long Covid is very marginal. Thus, people are still being reinfected and are developing long Covid.

I am out of just out of time. Is Ms O'Connell aware of the HSE or any medical professionals in Ireland being involved in any research around long Covid internationally or with partners across the country?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes.

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

We are part of research that is being overseen by Canada and that involves Canada, the US, the UK and Ireland. It is looking at long Covid as an episodic disability. That has been rolled out since the end of 2021 and is ongoing. Initially, there were ten participants from each of the four countries. The findings were that long Covid is an episodic disability. That has been progressed and there are now 170 participants in each of the four countries. It is now quite major research. There are also two offshoots. One is looking at pacing and one is looking at guidelines relating to employment. It is looking at guidelines for employers and guidelines for employees in this regard. We are looking at the common ground between the four countries with sufferers of long Covid. We are finding there is a great deal of commonality. Therefore, whichever country a person is in, the symptoms are the same and the findings are similar.

I thank the witnesses.

I will move to Deputy Kenny next.

I thank everybody for coming in this morning. I am sorry that I missed about half an hour of the presentations and general discussion.

How many people in Ireland are living with long Covid? Is there a figure?

Ms Julia Corey

Based on the number of cases that have been reported to date in Ireland, which is 3.5 million, we use the World Health Organization conservative estimate of 10% of all infections. That would mean there are 350,000 people in Ireland with it. This is likely an under count given there has been an absence of testing largely in the past year or so. HIQA did a review of international literature on long Covid last year. It estimated that internationally the prevalence ranged from 15.2% to 53.1% based on self-reported data. I note also we are involved in the steering committee on the HSE's FADA study on long Covid. We cannot share any results of that yet but that it is probably coming out this quarter. The aim of that was to get an understanding of the prevalence.

Is there any reason behind some people who get Covid recovering over a certain period of time and others such as those with long Covid not recovering or taking a considerable amount of time to recover? Is there any correlation between these?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

We do not know why some people get long Covid. We do know that in many ways it seems to fit as an autoimmune disease, which would tie into the fact that more women are affected than men. We are aware there possibly seems to be some genetic component to a predisposition to develop post-acute viral illness because we have seen multiple cases of long Covid in many families. Unfortunately, we just do not know right now why some people are getting sick and some people are not.

What is the recovery rate for those with long Covid?

Ms Julia Corey

I can give figures from two studies. The study by Tala Ballouz et al. in 2023 reports that 22.9% of individuals infected did not fully recover by six months and the proportion of individuals who had an infection who reported not having recovered decreased to 18.5% at 12 months and 17.2% at 24 months - so some people may recover but it is very few. Another study by Tran et al. in 2022 found that 85% of those who had long-Covid symptoms at two months following their infection continued to report symptoms one year later.

Are there people who, having been diagnosed with long Covid, have not got over it and have just gone on gradually with it getting more progressive?

Ms Julia Corey

Yes.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes. There is a huge number of patients from the very first wave. We speak to many patients who got sick in April 2020 and in lots of cases they have remained the same and not improved. In some cases they have deteriorated. A big problem is with reinfection. A lot of people have now had Covid three, four or five times, regardless of how careful they are. A lot of long-Covid patients reported deterioration after that. Yes there are many people who do not get better.

Physically and mentally that must do terrible things to people, such as with some of the witnesses here. That takes a toll physically and mentally. It must really take a toll on people and their families. What are the effects on the witnesses?

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

It does take a toll. Any chronic illness is going to have ramifications on a person's emotional well-being. There are all the feelings of guilt of having put your family through this and shame that you can no longer financially contribute to the household. It is not being there for your kids, not being able to be your former self, and not being able to partake in society such as social events and family events. The need for psychological support is very important but we must not psychologise it into thinking that long Covid is a psychological condition because it is not. We definitely do need that. It is the same for any chronic condition but in particular for this one in that there is no prognosis and there is no cure. One has to deal with that and the fact that it is episodic: it waxes and wanes. Just when you think you are better you are not. That side of it places an awful lot of insecurity on people and a huge pressure. There is the financial burden and also the whole emotional side of this. It is like a form of grief. You are grieving your former self and the loss of who you used to be. You have no idea whether you are ever going to get back to that person you were. You have to create a whole new normal. Pacing becomes part of life. Believe me, that is so difficult. We will probably be conked out for the next week because of today and given the pacing that goes in beforehand. That is our reality.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I believe Ms Morrison wants to add something to that.

Ms Pamela Morrison

I got infected when I came back from the UK. I lived in the UK and I came back to visit my parents for their anniversary in the April. I also worked in pandemic planning and I am a crisis manager. The irony of this is not lost on me. It is now four years and I have never gone back to my house in London. My life is on hold. Any long-Covid patient would say that he or she is in limbo. That the person may have been high achieving and was someone who contributed to society and then was left, gaslit and not listened to creates - as Ms Morrison said - a grief. People feel they would have become a shell of their former selves, only for this group and being able to fight. It will not be lost on the committee that we are all women. Chronic illness is something that affects women significantly. The frustration is very real and us keeping a lid on it today is also going to have ramifications I am sure because we will be very tired tomorrow.

My final question is about the use of LDN, low-dose naltrexone. I am aware that Dr. Jack Lambert spoke about it this morning.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes.

This drug has been used with other conditions. Dr. Lambert said it was quite beneficial for those with long Covid. Have the witnesses been prescribed LDN?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

My own personal experience is that before I developed long-Covid symptoms I had ME and I have been on LDN for eight years. It allowed me to be able to mind my children and allowed my husband to be able to keep working so that was the difference. From hearing from patients around the country for some people it is the difference between working and not working. The drug naltrexone has been around for a long time - for decades. We are talking about a low-dose version of it, which obviously means fewer side effects and it being safer. We understand that the HSE wants randomised controlled studies for any medication. We are always told in medicine that there is a potential benefit versus potential risk analysis. In this instance we are talking about enormous potential benefits in getting someone back functioning day to day. Not everyone responds to it but a huge number of people do. This benefit is versus a very small potential risk. This is a well tolerated drug that has been used by people of all ages. It has been around a long time. We are frustrated by the lack of willingness to consider this as a treatment.

It is not a considered drug in relation to the HSE. Will doctors prescribe it?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

It varies hugely. It is being prescribed. There are three main private services looking after long-Covid patients in this country and all three of them are prescribing it. There are some GPs around the country who in previous years had already been prescribing it for things like fibromyalgia and ME - it is prescribed for a whole host of conditions - and who are now prescribing it for long Covid. This is done by some GPs but that is not very common. We have heard of one clinic being open to prescribing it but generally no clinic is willing to prescribe low-dose naltrexone. We have a hard time just getting the clinics to consider prescribing basic medications.

I thank the witnesses.

We are stuck for time and a number of members are looking to get it. I do not believe we will get everyone in. I will move to Deputy John Lahart. If members do not want to take their full speaking slot it will be helpful for other members to be able to get in. It is up to members.

I will not take the full time because a number of the questions I wanted to ask have been asked.

I thank the witnesses for attending. I accept that the questions I was going to ask have been asked and the witnesses have answered them.

I will go to the opening statement we received from the national clinical director of integrated care at the HSE. I will read the witnesses some of the points relating to the post-acute clinics established by the HSE. I want to ask about three or four points. The HSE says:

Patients can be referred between Post-Acute and Long Covid clinics, depending on their symptoms. In some patients that are referred, the symptoms with which they present are not attributed to Long Covid, and the patient may be experiencing worsening of an illness, eg. asthma, or present with a new diagnosis.

It goes on to say, "It is worth noting that for many the referrals to the Post-Acute Covid Clinics, symptoms originally attributed to Covid are, in fact, explained by other specific Respiratory diagnoses." At another point it says it did not reach the 10% response rate it wanted as regards carrying out a scientific survey on long Covid. The witnesses refer to long Covid as a disease in their opening statement. The HSE clinical director, summarising in the last paragraph of her statement, says "Long Covid is a new clinical entity, characterised by a wide variety of symptoms, for which there is, as yet, no evidence-based treatment". There is therefore a lot of contrasting language used.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes.

I am wondering about the witnesses' responses to that. They are not to interpret my questions as coming down on or siding with one side or the other. I am just interrogating the statements.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

To clarify, long Covid has been used as an umbrella term to explain any negative health outcome following a Covid infection. That is why long Covid is diagnosed only 12 weeks after a Covid infection. The idea, to my understanding, was that post-acute Covid clinics were set up to deal with people in that shorter period. Of course, a Covid infection might exacerbate an existing illness, but long Covid is defined by the WHO as being diagnosed only at 12 weeks. It is an umbrella term for any health outcome, but the main type of long Covid we are concerned with is what some people have referred to as syndromic long Covid, which is characterised mostly by profound fatigue and something called post-exertional malaise. Other outcomes, such as new onset diabetes following a Covid infection, have a very clear pathway, whereas this type of long Covid, which seems to be the majority, does not. There seems to be a little confusion about post-acute Covid clinics versus long Covid clinics. Originally, in the interim model of care, it was the case that some of the post-acute Covid clinics were going to help out as long Covid clinic services, seeing people post 12 weeks until the long Covid clinics all opened. We know, however, that Tallaght is still operating in a sense as a long Covid clinic, even though it was never supposed to be part of the official six, and we do not know why that is. There seems to be some confusion around post-acute Covid clinics versus long Covid clinics.

I could be wrong here so I am using very generalised language. As regards the diagnostic and statistical manual, DSM, which outlines what a disease is, etc., one of the basic requirements for a disease to be accepted as a disease, I think, from memory, is that it has to have a number of characteristics that are unique to it. It can have characteristics that are common to other diseases but it will always have a characteristic or two or whatever that are unique to it. Will the witnesses speak to that?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes. There have been tens of thousands of research studies done on long Covid looking to find biomarkers that can lead to a clear way of diagnosing long Covid. Obviously, the inability to diagnose based on a test and the fact we have to diagnose based on exclusion is a big problem. I think we are getting to that point, but it will take time. There are research studies that show clearly there are very specific problems with patients and ways in which their bodies are not functioning.

That are unique.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

That are unique.

In a post-Covid-----

Ms Sarah O'Connell

That are unique to long Covid.

By long Covid Ms O'Connell means that where someone contracted Covid or tested positive or whatever, immediately after that or as a continuation of the classic Covid symptoms, this other set of characteristics, some of which are unique, started to display. I am interested in how the HSE describes this as an entity. It does not describe it as a disease. I wonder why the witnesses think that is.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I do not know why that is. Does Ms Corey wish to speak to that?

Ms Julia Corey

We cannot speak for the HSE but, to further clarify, the WHO does set out that clear definition of long Covid and that it has more than 200 identified symptoms, so it will vary from person to person, but I suppose all these things can be tied back to a Covid infection about three months prior.

Deputy Durkan is next.

I will not delay. I thank our guests for coming along and giving us their knowledge of the condition. Are many people without income at present as a result of the intermittency of the condition?

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes. I have one example of a very desperate woman who has got in touch with us several times. She is a single mother of two children. She is in arrears of €12,000 with her mortgage. The bank is pushing her to sell. She has tried to engage with the bank to come up with a payment plan, but the bank insists on engaging via phone call and, due to her cognitive issues from long Covid, she cannot remember the content of the phone calls after they occur. She has therefore asked the bank specifically to respond only by email. We hear again and again about the financial impact and we know there has been a huge uptick in the number of submissions for social welfare claims. I do not know if Ms O'Donovan wants to add to that.

Is there difficulty processing the social welfare claims?

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

There is a huge difficulty. It is a matter of looking at the people carrying out the assessments. Do they know what long Covid is? For many patients making these submissions, what they have on paper is long Covid. People who tend to go down the private route may have other conditions, such as fibromyalgia, autoimmune conditions, diabetes or whatever else. They can have other things on their page so they have a better chance of being approved. The ones who are going with just long Covid, however, generally are not getting approved and have to go through an appeal process, and that involves paperwork and cognitive ability, which is the thing being undermined here. They are reaching out to TDs to help them in the appeal process. What we are looking for is that the assessors are trained as to what long Covid is. We need recognition of it. If the Government were to recognise long Covid as an occupational illness, that would help enormously the people applying for disability and invalidity pension.

Or disability allowance in the first instance. How many people have difficulty getting disability benefit? This is a disability.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

Yes. That is one excuse that is often used. There is illness benefit, which is not means-tested, and there is disability allowance. They are the two main benefits people are applying for. When people apply for disability allowance, a lot of the time the reason for rejection that is used is that long Covid is not considered a disability, but if you look at the definition of disability allowance on gov.ie, it covers illness. It does not have to be something that is declared as a disability. It is important to say also that, as far as we can see, there has been no direction from the Government to the Department of Social Protection to expect an influx of claims because we have an influx of newly chronically ill people. These are really ill people. They are genuinely ill. Rather, what is happening is they are trying to stick to existing quotas of approvals and denials and people are having to battle and battle.

Normally, it requires an agreement from the Department of Social Protection that the condition is likely to last for more than 12 months. That is preliminary to qualification for disability allowance. Disability benefit, however, is different because it draws on the social welfare contribution scheme.

Is there any link or correlation between the incidence and the difficulty in obtaining a payment? I was talking to a person recently who cannot work but is not in receipt of any payment whatsoever. We cannot have a situation where people are just cast aside, particularly those who are health workers. They were on the front line and, when called upon, they gave of their services willingly and readily and stayed to the bitter end. We must determine how we can amend the regulations to take on board their particular situation and try to ensure they are not left penniless or without an income and, as a result, vulnerable to the possible loss of their homes and so forth. I am interested in hearing of such cases from our witnesses if they can provide examples without getting into intimate personal details. We can follow them up.

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

One of the things the Department asks is whether the patient has exhausted treatment options and what the prognosis is, but there is no prognosis for long Covid. That is another issue. When people are applying for a disability allowance or invalidity pension, the onus is on them to prove they have a disability and that it is likely to continue for at least 12 months. In the case of long Covid, people have absolutely no idea how long it will last, and that is a problem straight away. The prognosis side of things causes difficulties. People cannot prove they have exhausted every treatment because the situation is always evolving.

In the event of a person having this debilitating condition for more than a year, it is then obvious that the condition lasts for more than 12 months and is likely to continue for the next 12 months. There should not be a difficulty there. We will have to probe that with the Department of Social Protection. Generally, applications for the disability allowance and all payments other than benefits are awarded on appeal. Applications are refused initially and then appealed, which causes delays. In the meantime, the person affected by the condition has no income and no security.

Technically, we have run out of time, but I will give Senator Black a couple of minutes. Please bear in mind that other witnesses are waiting outside.

I will keep it short. I commend our guests on the work they are doing and thank them for it. It is very important work. They have highlighted the dismissal, minimisation and gaslighting they have experienced, on top of long Covid itself. That must be horrific. I really acknowledge what they have said. I agree with Ms O'Donovan that it should not be treated as a psychological issue, although its effect on mental health, which is very strong, must be borne in mind.

I want to ask about best practice, a centre of excellence and the pilot programme that was mentioned. I am sure the witnesses have thought that through. I ask them to elaborate more on how they see that. Have they connected with the HSE on that and what was its reaction? I will leave it at that, but I would like the witnesses to give as much detail as possible on how they see a centre of excellence operating, what constitutes best practice and on the connection with the HSE.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

I will make one point and then hand over to Ms O'Donovan. Right now, very few patients are being prescribed medications in public long Covid clinics. We are not talking here about controversial medications or LDN but about things like melatonin for sleep issues, anti-inflammatory drugs for muscle and joint pain and so on. We do not know why that is the case because these are medications that are prescribed every day in every GP practice in the country for these symptoms. Is it because they do not have the time for follow-up? We do not know. Providing symptom management and being willing to prescribe medications that are tried and tested for those particular symptoms would be an obvious starting point.

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

On the centre of excellence, what we are looking for is a one-stop shop, a clinic where patients are involved in all aspects of the service, where they have a say and their lived experience is valued and informs the practice. We want to see a clinic where patients work in collaboration with all of the clinicians, including the occupational therapists, physiotherapists, psychologists, and the treating doctors. The approach must be multidisciplinary. One of the main recommendations is that it would be person-centred. Care plans must be multidisciplinary and person-centred. The patients have to be the driving force and be instrumental in determining treatment. Treatment needs to suit the patients, address their symptoms and be based on best evidence. The model we have in mind includes all of that, as well as a gathering of data. We need to determine how we can best support people, including through organised peer support, psychological support, as well as all of the medical interventions and treatments, and we need to gather the data.

Have the witnesses spoken to the HSE about that and has there been any response?

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

Our proposal is ready and has gone to the HSE. We have not presented it as yet but-----

What was the response?

Ms Imelda O'Donovan

We have not presented it yet but it is ready. The presentation is ready to go.

Ms Sarah O'Connell

To take up a point hinted at by Ms O'Donovan, based on the emerging evidence, we are finding that patients are going to public long Covid clinics and to their GPs and they know a hell of a lot more about long Covid than the doctors they are speaking to because they are researching it constantly. Obviously, we understand that doctors cannot stay on top of everything and of the thousands of studies being done, but there does not seem to be much up-to-date knowledge coming through.

I thank the witnesses.

Could I ask a question?

I am sorry but we do not have time. I did not even get an opportunity to ask questions myself.

I will try to let you in during the next session but our time is limited. My apologies.

I am conscious of the effort involved here for the witnesses. You have been talking about the long road to recovery and I thank you again for coming before the committee today and engaging with us. I wish you well on your path to recovery. You have given us a lot of valuable information this morning and we will continue this conversation with our next group of witnesses. Thanks again.

Sitting suspended at 11.08 a.m. and resumed at 11.12 a.m.

The committee will resume its consideration of the delivery of health services for patients with long Covid. I am pleased to welcome from the Health Service Executive: Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain, national clinical director, integrated care, who is the delegation lead; Dr. Ciaran Bannan, consultant in infectious diseases; Dr. Brian Kent, consultant respiratory physician; Ms Catherine Clarke, assistant national director, acute operations; and Dr. Grant Jeffrey, director, workplace health and well-being unit.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such directive.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Ní Bhriain to make her opening remarks on behalf of the HSE.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Good morning. Thank you for the invitation to meet with the joint committee to consider the delivery of health services for patients with long Covid. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Catherine Clarke, Dr. Ciaran Bannan, Dr. Brian Kent and Dr. Grant Jeffrey. Today, we hope to discuss the following: the development of the HSE interim model of care for long Covid; progress on implementation of the interim model of care for long Covid; the HSE FADA study; and the up-to-date information on long Covid and its management.

The HSE developed an interim model of care for long Covid which was launched in September 2021. The model was developed by a multidisciplinary, multi-specialty committee with public health support. The development of the model was guided by the principles of Sláintecare, with the aim of ensuring there would be access to clinics around the country. Initial funding of €2.2 million was agreed for the first year of implementation, which was a part-year cost, with an overall cost of €6.6 million per annum. Following on from the development of the model, we commissioned an independent review by HIQA in 2022 which confirmed that the model is broadly in line with other models of care internationally.

I will now deal with progress on the implementation of the interim long Covid model of care. The model recommended the establishment of supports and services for those suffering from long Covid, with a clear pathway for assessment and management. Subsequent to its launch, work immediately began on the implementation of recommendations from the model. The model recommended the establishment of eight post-acute Covid clinics and six long Covid clinics across the country, representing each hospital group, with appropriate staffing supports. Six long Covid clinics are operational and receiving patients, with each clinic supported by an interdisciplinary team with expertise in the management of long Covid. Two hospital groups have combined their post-acute and long Covid clinics. The statement submitted to the committee gives figures for 23 February. The most recent information, as of 8 April, is that 53.6 of the planned 65.9 whole-time equivalent approved posts for those clinics have been recruited. The capacity to receive patients is based on staffing at each clinic. Long Covid clinics are established at Beaumont Hospital, St. James’s Hospital, St. Vincent’s University Hospital, Cork University Hospital, University Hospital Limerick and University Hospital Galway.

With regard to post-acute clinics, patients can be and are referred between post-acute and long Covid clinics, depending on their symptoms. For some patients who are referred, the symptoms with which they present are not necessarily attributable to long Covid and the patient may be experiencing the worsening or exacerbation of an existing illness, such as asthma, or present with a new diagnosis. The six post-acute clinics nationally are in Cork University Hospital, University Hospital Galway, St. James’s Hospital, the Mater hospital, University Hospital Limerick and Tallaght University Hospital. It is worth noting that for many of the referrals to the post-acute Covid clinics, symptoms originally attributed to Covid are, in fact, explained by other specific respiratory diagnoses, the most common of these being asthma and obstructive sleep apnoea.

With regard to neurology, there is currently a neurology clinic at St. James’s Hospital that receives referrals for patients with neurological symptoms that may be attributed to long Covid. This clinic accepts referrals from long Covid clinics around the country. The vast majority of referrals to this clinic are internal, followed by St. Vincent’s, Cork and Limerick. Tallaght and the Beacon also send referrals, along with occasional referrals from other colleagues in neurology. The cognitive issues that present are largely attentional deficits resulting from chronic fatigue, and these can be very difficult to manage as there is no known treatment available. A neuropsychologist has been in post at St. James’s since January 2024 specifically for this work and quality improvement work to optimise management for patients is ongoing. Approximately 17% of patients have a diagnosis of functional neurological disorder or functional symptoms.

With regard to the up-to-date information on long Covid and its management, long Covid refers to the continuation or development of new symptoms three months after the initial infection with Covid-19 that cannot be explained by alternative diagnoses. The symptoms may change over time and affect any system in the body, but common symptoms include coughing, neuropsychological symptoms, shortness of breath and fatigue. The exact number of those living with long Covid varies, ranging from 1.8% to 8.3% in studies with a diagnosis of, or referral for, long Covid, and from 15% to 53% based on self-reported data. Approximately 200 symptoms have now been described as part of long Covid, although the most common lingering symptoms are fatigue, shortness of breath, difficulties with memory and thinking, and joint and muscle pain. People can also suffer from palpitations and dizziness and psychological symptoms, such as depression and anxiety.

There is very limited evidence on how to treat long Covid, with current management based on the symptoms the person is experiencing. Information on this is provided on the HSE website. The systematic review conducted by HIQA in 2023 of interventions to improve long Covid concluded that “in the absence of strong evidence to support the effectiveness of interventions for Long COVID, a holistic approach should be used to support those living with Long COVID”.

There is also no evidence-based medication licensed to treat long Covid, with prescribing of medications based on existing guidelines for specific symptoms. However, ongoing research, particularly internationally, in this area may provide evidence-based options in the future.

The temporary special scheme of paid leave for healthcare workers affected by Covid-19 set out in HR Circular 022/2022 for certain eligible employees ceased on 31 March 2024 but has been temporarily reinstated by the Department of Health for a further three months to conclude on 30 June 2024 for those individuals previously availing of the special scheme. The public health service trade unions have referred the termination of the scheme to the WRC and conciliation conferences are taking place today. The HSE continues to provide supports to staff who have long Covid through our occupational health services, employee assistance programme and working with colleagues in specialist services.

The follow-up after disease acquisition, FADA, survey is a HSE-funded study that aims to provide insight and understanding into the prevalence of long Covid in Ireland and its impact on those affected. The study is led by HSE public health and supported by a team that includes infectious diseases clinicians, academics, health and social care professionals and patient representatives. The aim of FADA is to estimate the prevalence of self-reported long Covid in Ireland; describe its risk factors; describe type of symptoms, including their severity and impact on those affected; and measure health care utilisation and quality of life for those affected.

In total, almost 50,000 people were invited to participate in the FADA survey and 4,671, or 9.4%, valid responses were received. It is much appreciated that a large number of people who previously had Covid-19 responded to the survey, but, unfortunately, a response rate of less than 10% is a limitation in terms of drawing inferences about the occurrence of long Covid in the population in Ireland. Most international studies of the occurrence of long Covid have encountered similar challenges with validity. To address this, the FADA survey team secured reconfiguration of the Healthy Ireland 2024 survey to include a focused subset of questions from the FADA survey to improve the validity of the estimate of the occurrence of long Covid. The published report will quantify and characterise behavioural and lifestyle factors, the nature and impact of symptoms, healthcare utilisation and quality of life. A proportion of those who reported persistent symptoms with regard to fatigue, cognitive problems, pain, mental health, neurological, respiratory and cardiovascular issues will also be explored in the report.

In summary, long Covid is a new clinical entity characterised by a wide variety of symptoms for which there is, as yet, no evidence-based treatment. It is the subject of ongoing research in Ireland and internationally and the HSE has responded to the need by establishing clinics nationally to support this newly emerging condition.

I thank the witnesses for coming along and giving us information on this particularly difficult situation. It is difficult because it is very hard to treat it. We did manage to find a treatment in the form of a vaccine for Covid but there seems to be no way of preventing long or chronic Covid. What is happening with regard to drugs? Are efforts being made to identify specific drugs for treating long Covid? If they are being used, what is the response? What is the situation regarding long Covid throughout the EU? How does it compare with the situation here?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I will start and then defer to my colleagues on some of that. The Deputy is right. The vaccine has been very effective in reducing the prevalence of Covid. There are specific drugs used to treat specific symptoms. For example, if somebody has new onset asthma, that would be treated accordingly. I will defer to my colleagues in two seconds on that. We are involved with the EU on a group that is looking at the impact of long Covid internationally. Dr. Bannan and Dr. Kent are consultant respiratory and infectious diseases specialists in this area so I invite them to comment on the question about medications.

Dr. Brian Kent

Something we learned very much in the early stages of the pandemic when people were being admitted to hospital with Covid-related illnesses was the importance of only using treatments where we had some evidence that they worked. There were treatments used in an experimental fashion in the early stages of Covid that subsequently proved to be harmful for patients when they were properly studied in properly conducted trials. At the moment, there is no approved medication for long Covid in and of itself. Trials are ongoing in other jurisdictions, particularly the US, of different types of medication as potential treatments for different aspects of long Covid. For example, there are trials of anti-Covid viral medications that we hope will show some efficacy in improving long Covid-related symptoms but at the moment, there are no medications that we know will work for Covid in the context of persistent symptoms. An important lesson we learned from the earlier stages of the pandemic is that it is really not in the interests of the people who come to Covid clinics for us to throw medication at them with us having no real evidence that they will be of benefit to them.

What about medication to treat some of the conditions that are showing up such as chest infections, coughs, etc.?

Dr. Brian Kent

When people come to Covid clinics, we do not have a one-size-fits-all treatment that will fix them. I am a lung doctor. When people come to the post-acute clinic in particular, which focuses principally on people with respiratory symptoms, our first job is to find out whether there is something there that their Covid infection has triggered for which there are evidence-based treatments. Dr. Ní Bhriain mentioned asthma, which is one of the conditions we will see being triggered or exacerbated by Covid. We have very good treatments for asthma. We have very good evidence for how to treat that. Similarly, many people will present with difficulties with cognition or difficulties with energy levels during the day. We do know that there are other disorders that can co-exist alongside long Covid where we have good evidence bases for treatment. Dr. Ní Bhriain mentioned a condition called sleep apnoea where people get irregular breathing while they are asleep, which can cause many of those symptoms as well. If we identify that in people who have been referred to the Covid service, we have ways of treating that and potentially improving their symptoms that way. Much of the initial assessment of people coming to the Covid clinic is focused on trying to identify other parallel pathologies and conditions they may have where we do have very clear ways of improving their symptoms.

How can we tell in cases where a person has been refused social welfare assistance, has no income and has a condition that is likely to last more than 12 months - the criterion that is applicable? Have we been able to answer that? Is it possible to answer the question as to whether this condition will persist for more than 12 months, in which case he or she is entitled to be considered for payment of disability allowance or a pension?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Regarding disability and separating out the prognosis of the illness or condition, we do know that most people's symptoms resolve within one year so we can comment on it. I was going to ask Dr. Bannan and Dr. Kent whether we are aware of the number of people whose symptoms persist for over a year.

Dr. Brian Kent

I think this was alluded to in the testimony the committee received earlier and probably from its own reading. We know less than we need to know about this disorder. What we do know is that the majority of people with symptoms at three months will thankfully have fewer or no symptoms by 12 months. Data from the UK suggests that the number of people who have symptoms at three months will be approximately halved by 12 months, so most people will get better.

What we are not good at, and do not have a means to provide, is a prognosis. Our ability to prognosticate when we first meet the person is very limited. When someone walks into my clinic room or Dr. Bannan's clinic room and we talk to them about their symptoms, it is difficult for us to estimate whether in 12 months that person is going to be fine or continue to have significant and debilitating symptoms.

I thank the Chair.

Go raibh maith agat. The witnesses are all very welcome. They heard the testimony from the first session. The witnesses in earlier are people who are sufferers of long Covid and advocate for patients. Their experience has been slightly, or I would say radically, different from some of what I have heard said here, which is a bit alarming.

I just want to start with the last session we had in October 2022. The previous witnesses reminded us that the HSE at that time said knowledge around long Covid was evolving. It is, so that was a statement of fact. A commitment, however, was given that services would improve and expand. When I asked where the weaknesses were in this regard, they pointed to some improvements among GPs in respect of greater awareness. We also have the long Covid clinics. Some issues raised, though, concerned symptom management not being what it should be, confusion about what this means, not having physical examinations and appointments being performed virtually, for example, as well as blood tests sometimes being taken but sometimes the tests being looked at being four or five months old, which does not make sense to me. The main point being made by those witnesses, however, was that we need a thorough examination of patients. What is Dr. Ní Bhriain's response to this? What diagnostic tools are available to provide a prognosis and to diagnose? What guidelines are in place in the first instance? Those are my first questions and I wish to come back in then with follow-up questions.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Okay. I will start with the guidelines if that is okay with the Deputy. We did work with the ICGP in developing the long Covid model of care. At that time, the ICGP organised some training for GPs. It was very well attended, with 1,400 or 1,500 GPs participating in each webinar. The college has produced an evidence-based guide to support the investigation of patients' conditions. We do have protocols and pathways for GPs to refer patients to the long Covid clinics. I ask Dr. Bannan and Dr. Kent to describe what happens to patients when they are referred and what the nature of the examination and investigation process is.

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

To speak to the St. James's experience, all patients coming to the clinic for the first time will get a comprehensive medical assessment. They will get a full physical examination and a timeline and trajectory of their symptoms will be taken from that. Relevant investigations will then be done to rule out any other medical conditions, such as asthma, obstructive sleep apnoea, anaemia, chronic kidney disease, chronic liver disease or any other factors that might be contributing to or worsening their symptoms.

When Dr. Bannan refers to a physical examination, what would this typically involve?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

It would involve respiratory, cardiovascular and abdominal examinations, and a neurological examination, if indicated. Patients will have their vital signs recorded, including their blood pressure and pulse. Following on from that, there will be further focused investigations, where an ECG, a chest X-ray, etc., will be performed.

Would that be for all patients referred or would it depend on the symptoms?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

It would be for all patients who come into the clinic.

Okay. My next question relates to what was said earlier concerning a view from clinicians that symptoms improve within 12 months. I hope I understand correctly what was said. Has this been the experience with most patients, if not all? Is that what was being said?

Dr. Brian Kent

Most patients improve with time, but not all. Our ability to distinguish those people the first time we meet them is not always great.

We need to be very clear on this point. Witnesses have come before us today who have had symptoms for much longer than a year. We all have people we engage with regularly, constituents, who would say their symptoms have existed for a long time. To be clear, then, there are patients who would have symptoms for years.

Dr. Brian Kent

Absolutely, we meet them in our clinic. Us acknowledging or recognising that many people get better is not to in any way question the validity of the symptoms of the people who do not get better-----

That was the point I was trying to make.

Dr. Brian Kent

-----because there are a number, which is relatively small, thankfully, of people who are badly affected and have very persistent symptoms.

Is there a breakdown of the percentage of patients the witnesses would say show signs of recovery within 12 months?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We might come back to the Deputy on this point. It is very difficult to say how many people are going to have this condition in the longer term and that is why we have been so keen to do further study.

I am just talking about patients who have been through the clinics and who have seen improvements. Is there any data in this regard that can be shared with us? The witnesses might not have it with them here today, but I refer to data that could be shared with us.

Dr. Brian Kent

The challenge at a clinic level is that there has not been a systematic capture of data nationally, that I am aware of, in terms of long Covid.

When we talked earlier, and back in 2022, about an evolving understanding, we know that what is really important in healthcare is data. If we are not capturing this, how can we then know the full extent of the illness and what level of recovery there is, depending on the patient? I refer to a situation where I cannot get a percentage after 1,000 or 2,000 patients have been seen, or whatever the number is, within the relevant period. Mention was only made of a certain percentage having shown significant or partial improvement. To me, this is very basic data.

Dr. Brian Kent

So-----

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I might come back in on this point. I want to distinguish here between the activity levels, the number of people attending the clinics, an aspect we can certainly come to and that Ms Clarke will be able to talk about, and drilling down into the patient information.

No, that is not the question.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I absolutely acknowledge that. We have got the individual information. With the further study, however, what we are trying to capture is what is the suggested prevalence for Ireland. I think it is an important-----

I suggest more of that needs to be done. It is important for us.

I have another quick question. The witnesses in with us previously also spoke about staffing deficits in some of the clinics. They talked about one clinic where there was no psychologist, as well as about occupational therapists who had left posts and so on. Will Dr. Ní Bhriain give us information, not here but in a follow-up note, on the staffing in all these clinics and inform us if there are staff deficits and positions that are unfilled? I ask this because it is important we ensure those posts are filled.

My last point is important one. People's first gateway into the health service are GPs. Concerns were raised about the level of training given to GPs. What work has the HSE done, and what more work will it do, to ensure GPs get the highest level of training in relation to understanding symptoms, prognosis and all of this? If this query could be answered, I will leave my questioning at that.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We will get that data on the clinic staff for the Deputy. In terms of our GP colleagues, we had a GP on the original steering group for the model of care, which was important. We engaged with the ICGP throughout that undertaking. We engaged with the college several times, but I am certainly happy to take this as an action to go back and talk to my GP colleagues again about this aspect. I am very happy to do that.

Okay. Before we move to the next Deputy, do the various clinics talk to each other? Is there co-ordination among them and a common approach to dealing with symptoms? Are the clinics learning from each other in relation to what works and what does not? Can Ms Ní Bhriain give us a sense of how the existing clinics are operating?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I might start to give a sense of this context and then hand over for further discussion. We obviously have different specialties involved in the clinics, directly and indirectly. Mental health services, for example, are indirectly involved but we do have referral pathways to those services. Those psychiatrists, and I am one myself, would share their information. Again, our respiratory and infectious diseases colleagues met regularly when this started to update each other on information and they do share information. Another way in which information is shared is through having case conferences for more complex cases as a general rule of thumb. Perhaps Dr. Bannan would like to add to this point.

Is this a formal or informal arrangement?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

At present, it is informal. We communicate regularly to establish how things are going in other clinics, to determine what the staffing levels and activity levels are like, and to look to review the latest evidence as well.

And would clinicians say whether a particular drug or approach was working? Would they share that information with one another?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

Yes. We have reviewed what is in the therapeutic armament on occasion.

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. I will start on the issue of data, which I spoke about in the previous session. If we do not have decent data, we cannot measure anything and we do not know about performance. Many of the replies I received from the HSE show poor-quality data, and that is not acceptable with an important programme like this one. Why is it that patient-level data is not collected and measured?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

It is difficult. We do not have the complex IT system that is needed to granularly measure that. Detailed information is kept about individual patients by the individual teams. Dr. Bannan has alluded to the fact that the type of examination a person would have-----

But that is not collated. Is that what Dr. Ní Bhriain is saying?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

One would not collate every single bit of information about a patient.

No, but the trends, the commonalities between various patients, and so on. We do not have any information from the HSE about patients.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We have activity data, data on the number of people who attend, waiting lists-----

There is no qualitative data.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We are doing the FADA study to try to bridge that gap.

How the system is operating is very unsatisfactory.

The witnesses referred to the HSE interim model of care, which has been in place since September 2021. One would hope that a great deal has been learned about long Covid since then. Why is the HSE still operating an interim model? Is work on developing a permanent model under way?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We developed an interim model because we felt and acknowledged at the time that this new-----

I am sorry, but I am asking about a permanent model. Is work on one under way?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

This is our extant model. HIQA recommended last year that we not review it as yet. However, we intend to review it in due course as evidence emerges.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

HIQA recommended that we wait until more evidence emerges. We will have the FADA report in June, which may indicate it is time for a review.

Regarding funding, there was a sentence in the opening statement that I did not quite follow. Dr. Ní Bhriain stated: "Initial funding of €2.2 million was agreed for the first year of implementation ... with an overall cost of €6.6 million per annum." Is that an estimate or is the HSE getting €6.6 million?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

No, that is the money we have. The first year of implementation started during the year, so that was part-year funding, if that makes sense.

This year, there is funding of €6.6 million.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Yes.

It is difficult to reconcile that with the fact that there are approximately 32 hours of clinic time being provided in total. Why are the hours so limited when there is what would seem to be fairly reasonable funding of €6.6 million?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

The teams do not spend all of their time doing clinics. There are other activities associated with providing the service. Perhaps Dr. Bannan and Dr. Kent can describe the situation.

I am sorry, but will Dr. Ní Bhriain explain to us where that funding is going?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

It is going on the staffing.

The clinics are open for two and a half to four hours per week. That is limited. For funding of this level, I would have thought there would be more patient-facing time.

Ms Catherine Clarke

The clinics operate varying times. Some are longer than five hours. They often extend their times if there are more people to be seen on a given day. Obviously, we do not have regular data on that because clinics can run over. A large number of virtual clinics also occur. Considerable time with those patients is taken as well. We also have many newer patients, who take longer than review patients. A substantial number of patients are still being seen, albeit the numbers are reducing. As it stands-----

Will the witnesses provide a breakdown of how the €6.6 million is spent, please?

Ms Catherine Clarke

It is mostly spent on the posts and certain-----

I do not mean now, but could they provide us with a note on the breakdown?

Ms Catherine Clarke

Of course. That would not be a problem.

When there is an increase in demand, most services will add on extra clinics as needed. Those are not necessarily counted in the standard clinics that happen, but clinics will often be extended-----

I would expect that data to be provided to us, which has not happened.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Dr. Bannan wishes to speak on that point.

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

It is predominantly the medical clinics or medical reviews that are being captured in this data, but a great deal of work is being done outside those by our allied health professionals. Our physiotherapists, occupational therapists and psychologists meet the patient regularly.

It would be interesting if we could get that information. It has not been provided yet.

The plan was for eight post-acute clinics and six long Covid clinics. A number of the clinics are a combination, but I believe the total comes to just 12. We have not reached 14 yet. Is that right?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We were looking at that. Some of the clinics had low levels of activity, so they were amalgamated.

Ms Catherine Clarke

There are some clinics that are combination clinics, as articulated in the opening statement. One clinic has been suspended because the demand was so low, so it was merged with another. That was the Connolly clinic. We were recently advised that its patients were being referred to Beaumont Hospital. There are some clinics that have not been stood up yet. For example, Letterkenny hospital's post-acute clinic has not been stood up yet because it requires additional resources.

Has the programme applied for those resources?

Ms Catherine Clarke

Yes. Unfortunately, the resources in question are, for the most part, the types of staff where there are shortages, for example, psychologists.

But the programme has the funding.

Ms Catherine Clarke

Yes.

"FADA" stands for "Follow-up After Disease Acquisition". Does that mean the HSE recognises long Covid as a disease?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We recognise it as a clinical entity and condition.

To some extent, we discussed the criteria for categorising something as a disease, but I take it that the HSE recognises it as a disease, given that the word is in the name of the programme.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I recognise it as a clinical entity. I do not want to be too semantic, but a clinical entity, a condition or a disease.

The final question is on children with long Covid. What service provision is made in that regard?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We examined that matter and had paediatricians involved when developing the model. At the time, the evidence was that children's symptoms were resolving quickly. Since then, and as we heard this morning, it has emerged that a number of children have ongoing symptoms and conditions. There is a clinic in Connolly where an adolescent consultant is seeing patients with a range of symptoms, for example, long Covid, post viral-----

Is that for adolescents as opposed to all children?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

For adolescents. Our experience and the international evidence have been that children's symptoms are heterogeneous. Generally, the paediatrician community feels that they are best dealt with by generalist paediatricians, with referrals to specialists as required, for example, paediatric cardiologists and respiratory specialists in paediatrics. Paediatrics differs from adult medicine, in that we have many more clinicians who practise at a generalist level than at a specialist level. Those generalist paediatricians are providing a service and are happy to see these-----

But no service for children below 13 years of age.

I thank the Deputy, but she is over time and her colleague, Deputy Lahart, wishes to contribute.

Okay. I thank the witnesses.

What are the neurological symptoms?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

They range across a number of areas. We would describe them as neuropsychological symptoms, including attention impairment, which is the commonest one, fatigue, anxiety and distress. People can experience dizziness, which is sometimes related to severe fatigue, and other autonomic symptoms, as discussed this morning. There are a range of symptoms across the neurological area, including muscle pain and aches.

I am impressed with what the programme is doing and the additional information that has been provided, although I found the opening statement a little box-ticking in nature. To echo Deputy Shortall, language is important from, for example, a health insurance point of view in terms of how a disease is described. If it is not a disease, one cannot claim for treatment.

Dr. Ní Bhriain described it as an entity. Dr. Kent described it as a disorder. How would Dr. Ní Bhriain describe Covid? How would she define it?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

It is an infection.

Okay. Is long Covid an infection?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

It is not because the infection has resolved, so these are the residual symptoms after somebody has had an infection.

What I was asking in the previous session was whether there are symptoms unique to long Covid. The impression I am getting is the symptoms, especially the most acute ones, were triggered by the original Covid infection. They do not seem to be unique in any way to warrant them being described as a separate entity as long Covid. Some of them may have worsened, etc. The people sitting in the Gallery who gave testimony earlier may not consider trying to define it helpful, but that is the impression from the evidence I am getting. Dr. Kent was nodding there, so I might go to him.

Dr. Brian Kent

The condition encompasses a myriad of symptoms. Different people will experience very different ones. The Deputy mentioned the neurological aspect. Some people coming into our clinic have many neurological symptoms and others have none. Defining long Covid as a single disease entity is challenging because we do not at the moment know why people who have long Covid get that. There are different theories for why that might be, including, for example, persistent viral infection we are not able to detect with conventional tests. There are as many different symptoms as there are people coming to the clinic.

Is there any other medical umbrella term in the experience of the witnesses that is used in a similar way?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Yes. Post-viral syndrome can be similar, with a range of symptoms. What characterises this constellation of symptoms is it is generally related in time to a person's experience or acquisition of Covid, etc. That is the characterisation; that is the link.

I am not trying to offend either the previous speakers or the current ones. I am really trying to learn something. I think the previous speakers' fear is that it gets put with ME, Lyme disease and other things where some GPs and practitioners say it is all in people's heads and there is no evidence for any of this, despite the weight of evidence. There is something going on here all right that we need to be concerned about. That is as fair as I can be when summarising. However, in the HSE paper, the witnesses are saying that when they looked at these, they just turned out to be a more acute form of asthma, which was already there. That seems to be writing off the long Covid piece. That is how I interpreted that.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

What we would be trying to do there is determine the constellation that characterises long Covid for this person whom we know has been infected with Covid and there is a relationship in time. However, sometimes Covid can cause other very specific symptoms. It can cause an asthmatic's asthma to be worse for a period, so it is simply an exacerbation. We want to distinguish that. It is manageable because it is an increase in the inhalers and tablets. I do not want to be speaking for my colleagues in respiratory medicine here, but those are things we will use to manage it. If somebody's asthma improves, we say we know what we have got here, maybe their asthma has been exacerbated and they do not have other symptoms of long Covid, but if they-----

Alas, because my time is limited-----

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

If they have long Covid, they have long Covid. I do not know-----

What Dr. Ní Bhriain has just outlined there is for me a much more sympathetic, compassionate description than in her opening statement. On that notion of a constellation of symptoms and in terms of defining long Covid, have the witnesses ever experienced a disease or an infection that subsequently caused a constellation of infections or disorders or that could be characterised as an entity before? Is this really a case of Covid being new in the context of our experience of this? What I am driving at is the witnesses who came before us in the first session are very convinced in their life experience that long Covid is a fact of their life and a very physical, medical experience with a list of symptoms. However, some of the case studies referred to have included GPs asking people whether they are suffering from any undue anxiety at the moment, which is kind of undermining. One of the things I am trying to do in asking the questions is reaffirm the notion of long Covid. I have this real fear that the longer we travel away from the Covid experience the less time we will give to this and the less efficacy we will attribute to it.

Dr. Brian Kent

To talk about comorbities such sleep apnoea or asthma being important things to identify and treat should not be seen as us as clinicians in any way, shape or form casting aspersions on the validity of the person's symptoms. When somebody comes into us, we want them to be better. It is really important to us these people get better. As we have talked about a bit already, we do not have good evidence-based treatment as a single tablet for long Covid, so we are always looking for an opportunity to step in and introduce some form of treatment that can help. If that helps by 20% or 30%, that is something at least. Recognising that people who have long Covid may have other conditions we have a much clearer understanding of does not mean we are in any way, shape or form suggesting their symptoms are not valid or not important.

To follow up on the Deputy's point about the constellation of symptoms, up to 200 symptoms were mentioned. The witnesses would not disagree with that.

Dr. Brian Kent

No.

The witnesses say in their statement there is no "evidence-based medication licensed to treat Long Covid". Have there been any medications used in the past or present, especially around auto-immune diseases, or any medications used to treat long Covid that are unlicensed?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

Before putting the cart before the horse, one of the things we really want to understand is the biology behind this condition. As we look at both the national and international evidence, there is a variety of mechanisms proposed for the mechanisms behind what is happening with patients who are suffering from long Covid. These, as Dr. Kent alluded to, could include auto-inflammation, immune dysfunction, endothelial dysfunction and issues with the blood-brain barrier. There are unfortunately a plethora of potential mechanisms so we may end up doing more harm than good if we do not target it well with specific treatments. This is why it is really important any medications be evaluated in a proper clinical trial.

What are Dr. Bannan's views on low dose Naltrexone for treatment of long Covid?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

The evidence base is not there as of yet. A lot of well-designed trials are ongoing to try to evaluate it further, but from reviewing the literature with my colleagues recently, we do not feel there is evidence as of yet.

Are some medical practitioners using that drug to treat patients with long Covid?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We are not aware of that happening in the long Covid clinics and certainly it is not part of the pathway in the long Covid clinics that Naltrexone or other non-evidence-based medication would be used.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Naltrexone.

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

It is an opiate antagonist, a drug designed to inhibit the effect of a certain type of painkillers and certain pain pathways.

This is being used in certain circumstances in relation to people with long Covid.

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

I am aware of patients who are taking it and have been prescribed it.

With respect to comparable conditions, we are trying to understand as best we can what long Covid is and it is obviously multifaceted. Is there anything comparable in the witnesses' medical, professional experience of what long Covid is, what it does to the human body and the longevity of that in terms of people's physical condition and mental capacity as well?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

For many years in the infectious diseases speciality, we have seen a lot of patients whose their quality of life has not returned to normal for quite a protracted period after certain infections.

Examples include after sepsis and ICU admission, influenza infection and various herpes viruses like Epstein-Barr. It has been frustrating for the patient and their lived experience. I may have mentioned in October 2022 that we now have a condition where a lot of the time we have a timeline from where the patient acquired infection. It is an opportunity to understand this poorly managed and researched condition better. In terms of data and research a lot of centres are now part of the national Irish Covid biobank. This is an opportunity to partake in research to gain a better understanding of the trajectory of patient recovery and the biology behind a lot of the symptoms patients are experiencing. From a research point of view, I encourage any patients to consider partaking in the national Irish Covid biobank.

I welcome the witnesses. I do not believe we treat long Covid with the same degree of seriousness as other countries. We were told this morning about some of the well-established practices that exist in France. I always like to think we would try to follow best practice in this country. We followed best practice when it came to measures to protect our communities in the midst of the pandemic. As a result of that, we are among the lowest numbers in Europe when it comes to people who lost their lives. Anyone who loses their life is one too many, but we still did remarkably well. However, when it comes to looking after people who, whether we like it or not, have a life-changing condition that has fundamentally altered the manner in which they go about their daily lives, we have fallen significantly short. I do not really buy the notion of joining up clinics because they are not busy enough. There are an awful lot more people with long Covid than people realise. I am interested to know what information campaigns the HSE is running to encourage people to consider that if they are suffering from fatigue, it might not be because they are overworked but because they have long Covid.

In terms of practicalities, I would like to know why the HSE has recruited physiotherapists in some long Covid clinics and not in others. It seems unfair that some clinics are better resourced than others. What is the rationale for long Covid patients in only some parts of the country being able to access physiotherapy? People suffering from long Covid may not be in a position to travel as a result of fatigue. Getting a train from the west to Dublin for treatment and then back home could have a detrimental effect on them for a number of weeks. It seems wrong and unfair. It is not equality as we know it, and where people get annoyed is where the urban population base gets superior treatment and supports than people who live in more rural parts of the country. Does the HSE plan to recruit physiotherapists for the long Covid clinics that do not have them? The symptoms of long Covid, in some respects, are similar to the symptoms of people who had Covid. They are tiredness, fatigue, not being able to get up, not having energy and, in many cases, being in pain. We heard striking examples. My colleague, Senator Kyne, spoke about somebody who ran marathons until they got long Covid, and now they can barely get out of bed. Why are these policies urban versus rural? Again, I ask them not to give me an answer saying that they have decided to close or merge a clinic because it is not busy enough. This is a problem, and it is time the HSE faced up to it in a real and meaningful way and not in a "tick the box" way.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

The aim in setting up the clinics around the country was to have equity so there would not be a single specialist clinic located in one city or the other. We tried to have national equity and to ensure the clinics are staffed to the same level. As my colleague Ms Clarke alluded to earlier, we have had difficulty with recruitment for these clinics and others because this is specialised staffing and a new entity, so we are continuing to recruit. When we provide the information Deputy Cullinane is looking for on the breakdown of funding and staffing, that might answer the question. However, Ms Clarke and I can assure the Senator that we are continuing to try to recruit so we will have a full complement of staff in the clinics.

Ms Catherine Clarke

We are continuing, and recruitment is ongoing for these clinics albeit that, as people know from our national service plan for 2024, our pay and numbers strategy is yet to be finalised. As it stands at the moment, recruitment is ongoing for those specialists where recruitment is permitted in those areas. On physiotherapists, I understand from the design of this that there was consultation with lots of clinics regarding the kinds of resources required and each determined what it needed. That informed where there are physiotherapists and where there are not. On the subject of urban versus rural, clinics were set up on hospital group basis. The Senator will be aware that we are moving to the regions at the moment. However, the hospital groups were in place at the time, and each hospital group was allocated post-acute and long-acute Covid clinics. There is a good geographical spread in clinic availability and accessibility.

I apologise for being late. I also sit on the transport committee, and it had an engagement this morning. I followed some of this debate, but not all of it. I apologise if I ask questions that have been asked. Like others, I know of some people with long Covid. One is a man in my local community who is involved in GAA coaching and plays golf the whole time. He came to one of my clinics approximately a fortnight ago in advance of today's meeting. We had to preplan how he would get into the office and there was a rigamarole. He was bringing oxygen with him. It was a pitiful sight for someone who, two years ago, was in peak health. It is real, and many nurses and allied health professionals reached out to us before today's meeting. We need to get our heads around the symptoms and understand them. However, what is most frustrating - "devastating" is maybe a better word - is that they do not all feel fully believed by their employers. Some of the witnesses are from the HSE and we have been speaking about clinics and follow-up care, but in the first instance their colleagues in the HR column of the HSE organisation are still not taking this seriously. When Covid hit this country and the world with a bang, we were all told to stay home, but people who worked in the health services were told to get out and fall in on the front line. They had no choice and now they have no excuse. They are where they are because they gave incredible service to our health system during those bleak and dark days. This may have been answered earlier. I believe there are 130 health staff still on leave as a result of Covid. Is that the case?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We believe in this entity and we believe it exists. We are keen to provide this service. Dr. Jeffrey might be able to comment more on the position of healthcare workers.

Dr. Grant Jeffrey

Healthcare workers have access to the occupational health services for additional support. As mentioned earlier, there is advice about recommendations to help people in the workplace returning to work. They have access to occupational health for that advice and support. With the HSE, they also have access to an employee assistance programme that provides a counselling and support service. Within the occupational health services in the HSE, we also devised a pathway to allow early access into support services for long Covid.

That remains in place. The Deputy alluded to a figure. The figure we have is that approximately 120 whole-time equivalent members of staff were availing of the specialist scheme of pay for long Covid.

I have no doubt that the occupational health people in the HSE believe this to be genuine and that the witnesses are offering a supporting role. HSE staff interface daily with many different relevant people, including managers. There is a vertical structure of management and there is local HR. Staff repeatedly tell me that even among more senior colleagues in the hospital system, it is not always understood, which is a pity, and where it is understood, it is not believed in all instances, which is frustrating. Sometimes they feel they are being put out there as someone who is just unwilling to work or being awkward, tricky or lazy. These are words that have been used to me.

To use an example from a totally different realm, in An Garda Síochána if people are injured at work, the organisation finds a role for them. They are brought back to work as quickly as they are able, but they may not be back on the front line, on the beat, so to speak. Will the HSE outline what measures it has taken, especially in the context of nursing roles that are demanding. Nurses are required to be on their feet all day. Has the HSE looked at any new roles in which people could carry out nursing duties in a less intensive way in order that they could be back in the work environment? Has it looked at blended work options?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

That has absolutely been looked at. Dr. Jeffrey may be able to talk a little more about this. In the clinical service I worked in, that has certainly been the case. Blended working has been considered for people. People have been put on less onerous duties to facilitate a return work. That is very much part of the approach of facilitating a return to work for anyone. It could be recommended by one of our consultant colleagues. Perhaps Dr. Jeffrey will comment a little more on facilitating a return to work.

Dr. Grant Jeffrey

Absolutely, it is part of return to work to help to support people. To facilitate a return to work, we provide recommendations, looking at phased returns and reduced hours. Potentially, if someone has a physically demanding role, we can make recommendations about adjusting those duties and looking at different roles to help to facilitate that person to return to the workplace. We give that support and make those recommendations to the organisation.

I apologise if my next question was already covered. Where will this end up? Will it eventually be recognised as a lifelong disability? The people who contact our offices by phone or email or who come to our clinics say there was the immediate phase where they were unable to work. Now, they are at home trying to live normal lives but find themselves to be breathless, tired and suffering from all the symptoms the witnesses have outlined. We all pay PRSI via our work salaries. These people do not know whether they will ever get back to work. What level of dialogue has taken place with the Department of Social Protection on long Covid and how these people will be recognised? Will it be a lifelong disability? Surely, some dialogue has taken place. I apologise if the witnesses have already answered this.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We have not. The point to make is that because there is still so much emerging information and it has only been four years since the pandemic started, it is difficult to say that someone has a lifelong condition, because of the relatively short space of time. That requires ongoing research and monitoring internationally from a disability perspective.

Dr. Grant Jeffrey

Absolutely, it involves a great deal of stakeholder input from different Departments. Occupational health has a role, but it is wider than occupational health. It needs input from other Departments as well. It is more of a national policy consideration.

I do not want to comment too much about the agreement that was reached between the Department and the unions. There is a three-month rollover backdated to 1 April, which is good. However, rollover after rollover will eventually run out. Dialogue needs to happen. Some people have, as Dr. Jeffrey stated, had long Covid for three and a half or four years. It is important that we start to use other terms like invalidity and disability. If we are down to a cohort of 120 people in the health services alone, we will have to grasp that nettle soon and say that they may not be coming back to work. Those kinds of terms need to start being used as they are quickly running out of rollover time. PRSI stamp contributions will also run out. A level of dialogue with the Department of Social Protection is now needed beyond the three-month rollover period about where we can get these people in the long term.

I thank all the witnesses for being here. The witnesses mentioned that general paediatric consultants should be diagnosing and managing children with suspected long Covid. Parents who have connected with LCAI are saying that consultants do not really have the knowledge because they have not been trained. What should parents do when they feel that consultants are not really able to diagnose their children properly? What can parents do in that scenario?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

That is a difficult question because we would not want that to happen to people when they attend services. It is important that people engage with their GPs. If they are not happy with the outcome of the consultation with the paediatrician, I would advise them to seek a second one and to go back to their GP as well. I have spoken to my paediatric colleagues and there does seem to be good awareness of it. If there are individual concerns, I would tell people to go back to their GP.

Is there specific training for these consultants?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

There is no specific training for the paediatricians as such, but many of them have a particular interest in this and in children who have general problems, for example, children who have prolonged fatigue or post-viral symptoms. We have a number of consultants with that specific interest.

In the HIQA report, the drawing up of clinical guidelines with PPI involvement was recommended. This has not been done yet. Do the witnesses know why?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Which clinical guidelines?

The drawing up of clinical guidelines with PPI involvement.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We have had extensive PPI involvement, especially with the FADA study. Colleagues from LCAI are on the steering group of that study. It is fair to say that we need to develop more guidance and that will involve PPI engagement.

We heard from LCAI that no data had been collected by long Covid clinics about why patients stop attending the clinics. It was mentioned this morning that the clinic was not busy enough. Is that because people have stopped attending? What is the reason behind that? How can we expect improvements in our understand of long Covid and service provision without this data? That needs to be highlighted. If people do not feel they are getting the help they need from these clinics, where can they go and what can they do?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

At individual patient level - Dr. Bannan and Dr. Kent will be able to confirm this - that information is collected. When anyone is discharged from a clinic, the reason for the discharge, whether it is that the person wanted to be discharged or the clinician decided discharge was appropriate, will be recorded at patient level.

Dr. Brian Kent

The Senator is correct that we do not routinely collect data on people who have not attended their appointments. Most people who do not come to the clinic where I work will get a phone call to ask them why they did not come, but we do not systematically collect that data. I do not know whether other centres even make the phone call. If people do not come to the clinic, they are not there for us to be able to ask and there is no mechanism at the moment to systematically capture why that is happening.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

It is important to mention, however, that generally the attrition rate in clinics can be quite high. It is 10% to 15% and up to 20% in some clinics. I am not talking about long Covid at all, but more generally about the wider sphere. We generally find that the proactive approach of the simple phone call to ask why people did not attend and offer another appointment improves attendance by approximately 50%. Half of the people we contact will come back. We do not collect data about individual clinics as to why people do not attend, but different clinics have policies about follow-up plans, such as making the phone call.

Listening to the people from LCAI this morning was powerful. There is nothing like listening to people who have lived through the experience in this area. You learn so much.

How do the clinicians here envisage working with organisations such as LCAI, for example? Is that something they are considering into the future? It is so important when it comes to people who have experienced this, understand it, know it and live with it on a daily basis.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

The Senator is absolutely right. It is always our aim to try to work with advocacy and patient groups in the HSE and in the development of our clinical programmes. That is a given. I have met with LCAI. We have a new clinical lead for infectious diseases who has met with LCAI. I was talking to my public health colleagues last night who are leading on the FADA study. They are very keen to ensure that LCAI stays engaged. When the time comes to review the model of care we will most certainly be engaging with patient and advocacy groups. That is very much a principle of how we work.

With so many patients suffering neurological symptoms, why is there only one neurologist in the country - located in Dublin - for long Covid?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

There was a great deal of thought put into that at the time. When we were developing the model of care, the information was just emerging about the symptomatology that people had and that is why we set up the long Covid clinics; it was because of the constellation of symptoms that people have. The other thing when we were setting up the neurological clinic is that we tried to be really practical when we set them up so we did not want to put clinics in place that we knew we would not be able to staff. When we went out to set up the clinics, we looked across the board at our numbers of trainees in the system, the people we knew would be eligible for the posts. We tried to ensure that we were going to match those numbers with the clinics we were setting up. As it happened, there is only one neurologist trained in functional neurological disorders at the moment and with that special interest in people who have suffered from post-viral symptoms. Again, this is something that will have to be reviewed from the perspective of training and that of service development.

When we consider that there are 350,000 people with long Covid and that there is one neurologist in Dublin, it is quite harrowing. I thank the witnesses.

I welcome the team. On the FADA survey, they told us that 49,642 people were invited to take part. How were they invited? How were they contacted or identified?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

A particular geographical area of the country that was representative of the rest of the country was taken. I am not leading on the FADA study. They were identified through people who had been diagnosed as positive with Covid. The public health people used existing systems to reach out and ask individuals who had positive tests if they would like to participate in the study.

Of those, 4,671 responded.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Yes.

Would it be the case that those who suffer from long Covid would have been more inclined to respond than those who had not had any medium- or long-term issues?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Our general experience of conducting this kind of epidemiological research or surveys looking at population-based information is that people who are experiencing symptoms across the board are more likely to respond to a survey. Absolutely.

In the context of the 53.6 whole-time equivalents who were hired for the Covid clinics, what disciplines would be encompassed by a typical team?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We wanted multidisciplinary teams. When setting up the teams, we wanted to have a respiratory specialist, someone with knowledge of infectious diseases and access to psychological and psychiatric services. We asked each area to look at their what they needed across a range of nursing, health and social care professionals, including physiotherapy, occupational therapy and psychology. We asked the teams to look at what they had access to and what they needed most. We were saying that teams needed to be multidisciplinary but to go for people that they needed most in the area because if they already had a nurse or physiotherapist who could provide that function, that it might be better to bring in somebody different. We took a pragmatic approach, with a basic requirement that there would be consultant-led teams with input from nursing and health and social care professionals and access to psychological and psychiatric services. Does Ms Clarke want to expand on that?

Ms Catherine Clarke

No, I think that covers it. As a consequence of that, there is quite a mix of posts in the long Covid clinics. Equally, almost all the clinics only have access to 0.5 or one clerical officer. They are all clinical people of some type. We have just given a broad spectrum for clinical delivery of care for Covid patients.

Are the members of those teams working exclusively on long Covid or are they also involved in other areas within the hospitals?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

I will defer to Dr. Bannan or Dr. Kent, but most of us would be involved in on-call and other duties.

Dr. Brian Kent

It varies a little according to the role. In our clinic we have a physiotherapist who will almost exclusively work on the Covid side of things whereas other important team members, such as lung physiologists who were recruited to do breathing tests and lung function tests, also participate in other care pathways.

Has the recruitment embargo impacted on the filling of positions?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We had most of them filled. It is not impacting, as the Senator will know, on consultant recruitment.

Ms Catherine Clarke

It is not impacting as much as it was. Earlier in the year, there was a greater impact. As the posts are mostly clinical, however, the general impact has lessened. We have been challenged mainly with trying to get particular posts where there are shortages because that has been the biggest challenge in recruitment for the Covid clinics.

Is there a need to enhance the geographical spread? Letterkenny was mentioned as an example in the north west. Is there a need to expand the geographical coverage?

Ms Catherine Clarke

In terms of the posts, Letterkenny was one of the areas that was particularly challenging in recruiting posts. That was one of the bigger issues from the early stages before recruitment pauses were in place. It has been particularly challenged in that way.

The HSE has stated: "It is worth noting that for many the referrals to the Post-Acute Covid Clinics, symptoms originally attributed to Covid are, in fact, explained by other specific Respiratory diagnoses." These are such as asthma and sleep apnoea. What sort of levels are we talking about?

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

It is very variable. Would Dr. Bannan or Dr. Kent like to comment?

Dr. Brian Kent

When people come to the initial appointments, particularly in the post-acute clinic, we see that around 10% have asthma and another 15% have a condition such as sleep apnoea. It will vary a bit geographically and according to the age and gender of the person but in a reasonable number of people we will identify other pathology that exists alongside their Covid symptoms.

Were they symptoms that came post-Covid? Was Covid a factor in -----

Dr. Brian Kent

We can see some people where these symptoms will have arisen de novo following their Covid illness. So they are new following Covid. In other people, they may have had some baseline symptoms to begin with but their symptoms become more pronounced after having had Covid to the point where they have to look for care.

Do you think that Covid caused or had an impact on them developing this?

Dr. Brian Kent

There will be people who come to clinic show the symptoms are maybe not related to the Covid illness and are related to something else that has not previously been identified. As the Senator will have heard this morning, however, for a significant number of people, the symptoms are driven by a previous Covid infection.

In a similar vein, the team spoke about fatigue and the cognitive issues, attention deficit resulting from chronic fatigue. That is the chronic fatigue that came about because of Covid, so they are all connected, if you like.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

Yes.

Does that have an impact in the context of diagnosing long Covid? Is there a reluctance to diagnose long Covid because some specialists are waiting to see whether, even though something may be Covid-related, it is asthma, sleep apnoea or whatever?

Dr. Brian Kent

I do not think there is a reluctance on our part to describe somebody as having long Covid. The reason we are keen to find those other things is that they provide pathways through which we can improve the person’s symptoms. It is not necessarily about giving somebody a specific name or label for their condition; it is about trying to find ways that you can make them better.

Unfortunately, we have run out of time. I have many questions I would like to ask.

The witnesses who were before us earlier gave a fairly lengthy statement.

They outlined some really difficult stories and the challenges faced by the advocacy group and the people they are speaking up for. They had a number of recommendations relating to everything from masking in healthcare settings to clean air and antigen testing. They gave examples of patient experiences. It makes for difficult reading. It includes vaccination, the economics involved and so on. As stated, they made a number of recommendations. There were a couple of asks that seemed quite logical. Maybe at some stage the witnesses might be able to come back to address education and basic training for GPs. Many of the proposals they have seem quite logical. Maybe the witnesses could come back to us at some stage about their view on some of those asks.

I just want to give one example. Regarding the challenge with sharing information, I know of one patient who goes to the Mater hospital to see a heart specialist and goes to St. James's Hospital to see a respiratory specialist. It is difficult for the two systems to communicate. That is just one example. Earlier, we were talking about the clinics. There is no formal discussion. If we are talking about recommendations, one recommendation should be in respect of those clinics and the experiences people have every day. It would be useful not only for patients but for the HSE to share that information. Could the witnesses come back to us at some stage about how that is developing? Do they find it quite common that the systems do not talk to each other about patients in their practices? Have they recommendations that we could follow up on with regard to that?

Dr. Ciaran Bannan

Unfortunately, this has been an issue in the Irish health service for quite some time. We do not have a unique patient identifier. That has been proposed on a number of occasions. Hospitals have different systems, which is a challenge. Communication is a big part of that, as is making sure that all the specialists involved in someone's care are party to any correspondence with the GP and other specialists.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We hope that regionalisation will be of help in order that people's care will be concentrated in a region, except maybe for super-specialised care, which will be out of that region. It is a valid point. Hopefully, regionalisation will go some way to addressing exactly what the Cathaoirleach has raised.

The committee recently visited UHL. There are challenges with the emergency department but we were looking at other areas too. We got information this morning about the clinic in UHL and the fact that it does not appear to have a waiting list. Could the witnesses come back with additional information on what is happening there? We have waiting lists in all the other clinics.

Dr. Siobhán Ní Bhriain

We might provide an update to the Cathaoirleach. We can come back with more on that. We were particularly challenged with getting a consultant for that service. I am glad to say that somebody has been offered the post now and will hopefully be appointed soon. The Cathaoirleach is absolutely right that it has been challenging. We can come back with more on that.

I can understand people dropping out of clinics. If key personnel are missing and there is nobody to deal with a person's respiratory or heart problem, you can understand the effort it takes for someone who is seriously ill to get into the clinic. We heard this morning from some of the advocates that they are probably going to have to rest for a week after just a short session in here, which is a challenge.

Both sessions have been really useful. They have given the committee much to think about. There are clearly significant challenges within the services. Hopefully we can assess some of the information we get back and make some sort of recommendation that can improve the conditions. The witnesses heard the frustration this morning. As I said earlier, from some of the stories that are being told about patients and how they were treated, the idea that people would be told it is all in their head is appalling. That needs to be called out for what it is. It is incorrect information to give to people.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I thank the HSE for its engagement with the committee on the delivery of health services for patients with long Covid. We will have to continue to keep this under consideration.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.36 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 24 April 2024.
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