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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 27 Feb 2024

Defective Blocks Scheme: Discussion

I welcome everybody. We meet to discuss the issue of the defective concrete blocks scheme. I welcome representatives of groups from counties Mayo, Clare and Donegal. We are joined in person by Ms Lisa Hone, chair, and Ms Angela Ward, Mica Action Group Donegal; by Dr. Martina Cleary, chair, and Ms Mary Hanley who is joining us online, Clare Pyrite Action Group; and Ms Josephine Murphy, chairperson, and Mr. Conor O'Donnell, secretary, Mayo Pyrite Action Group. I thank them for giving up their time to attend and assist us.

This is a huge scheme worth more than €3 billion or whatever it is going to be. The purpose of the meeting is to meet with the groups and families and people affected by mica and the defective concrete blocks scheme. We were to have a second session afterwards where we had invited the Housing Agency and a number of others, but they are unfortunately unable to attend at this time. We discussed it in committee this morning and the committee will invite them in for a meeting at some stage when we can fit it into our schedule. We will speak to the witnesses here and relay their concerns and questions to those groups to try to get some answers for them. We have been circulated with the witnesses' opening statements and relevant papers in advance and I thank them for that.

I will read a quick note on privilege before we start. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses attending remotely there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The opening statements will be published on the committee website following this meeting. We will start with the opening statements before moving to the committee members for questions. This is a 90-minute meeting so I will limit questions to six minutes so we get round everybody. I know there are witnesses who want to come in from other areas.

We may not need it, but if the meeting is going a little longer we have flexibility at the end.

We always offer flexibility, but we also agree meeting times. I have to stick as close as I can.

The same flexibility we have had in all meetings will apply here.

I am happy to cede my time to anybody from the relevant constituencies and areas if they want to come in. I see Deputy Mac Lochlainn for example. I happy to give some of my time to them if that will help keep to 90 minutes.

I will call the Senator when it is her turn to contribute and she can make that offer then. I invite Ms Ward from Mica Action Group Donegal to deliver her opening statement.

Ms Angela Ward

I am PRO of the Mica Action Group, MAG, Donegal. I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear today. Do members know how many times homeowners have had to endure Government rhetoric that the enhanced scheme provides 100% redress to victims of the defective concrete crisis? Do members have the empathy to understand how it feels to be a homeowner who realises that their Government has deliberately hoodwinked most of their fellow citizens into believing they are getting their homes fully restored at zero personal cost? Have members ever heard of the illusory truth effect? When a message is repeatedly put forth, the statement ultimately becomes accepted as the truth. This is exactly the strategy employed by Government regarding the notion of 100% redress. What the committee will hear from me today is not illusory. What it will hear is the homeowners' truth, informed by MAG’s direct contact with hundreds of homeowners. Which truth members choose to believe at the end of these proceedings is a matter entirely for their own conscience.

There are many issues with this scheme, but today I will address what I believe are the most fundamental. The scheme does not provide for 100% redress. Homeowners' evidence financial shortfalls of tens of thousands of euro for the most modest of homes with the scheme excluding fundamentals such as foundations. County Donegal is among the most economically disadvantaged nationwide, yet homeowners are expected to pay thousands in upfront costs that can only be recouped retrospectively. The necessity to have thousands of euro readily available financially paralyses homeowners, leaving them unable to rebuild their homes. Homeowners were promised that all SEAI grants would be readily accessible. Eight months into a live scheme, there is still no clear guidance on how homeowners can access such grants. Again, to access such grants, homeowners must produce thousands of euro upfront.

The second impediment is that rigorous scientific evidence is being ignored. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, continue to operate a scheme underpinned by a now discredited standard - IS 465. Right now, homeowners are being pushed into critical remediation options based on a flawed and irrelevant desktop study.

The results of international, peer-reviewed scientific research of no less than six independent research groups that all evidence the primary issue to be internal sulphate attack remain unacknowledged. At a meeting of this committee on 13 July 2023, Geraldine Larkin of the NSAI stated that the experts serving on the NSAI technical committees would keep under review the possibility of issuing interim guidance should it be considered useful or proportionate. We have a live scheme. It is reckless, irresponsible and negligent to play fast and loose with people’s lives. Pushing people down remediation options that scientific evidence indicates will ultimately fail is unconscionable in terms of ethical, moral and fiscal responsibility. If the NSAI insists on awaiting the results of other tests, a precautionary approach must be taken in the interim. Ignoring the problem is to compound the issues.

Mortgage lenders are seeking certification from engineers over the entire structure not just the remediated portion. To date, we have not had clarity that engineers can do so backed by professional indemnity insurance. Due to a lack of due diligence by the Government, we have homeowners trying to engage in a scheme that does not guarantee full mortgageability, insurability or saleability of their homes post remediation.

Thousands of homeowners are excluded from the scheme because they are deemed ineligible, cannot project manage a build, have additional needs, do not have access to thousands of euro up front or, quite reasonably, are not prepared to replace their home with another defective home that excludes foundations and leaves defective material behind. This is not just the evidence from affected homeowners but also recommendations from a recent EU PETI report, which states that the scheme "should take better account of the financial burden of all the costs such as the cost for new foundations" and that "national and local authorities should take all the necessary measures to provide tailor-made and fit-for-purpose assistance to affected homeowners as well as comprehensive and effective solutions that meet their wide-ranging needs".

Despite the overwhelming evidence of fundamental issues, homeowners are being stonewalled at every turn by those who have the power to make the changes required. We ask, therefore, that this committee make an urgent intervention. Only a foolish optimist or a liar would deny the realities of the scheme as it stands. One hundred percent redress is an illusion fabricated by an irresponsible Government that has cast aside facts, truth and reality. Members can believe the lived experience of the homeowners or they can believe Government PR.

Ms Ward referred to the EU PETI report. What does PETI stand for?

Ms Angela Ward

It is the EU Committee on Petitions.

Ms Lisa Hone

That is a quote taken from the draft report.

I thank the witnesses for clarifying that. I now invite Dr. Martina Cleary from the Clare Mica Action Group to make her opening statement.

Dr. Martina Cleary

I would like to correct the record first. The mislabelling of this consistently as a mica problem is part of the problem. I think my group will probably rename itself the "Sulphate Attack Group" because that involves consistent defective blocks. Mica is not the issue.

In preparing my statement for today’s meeting, I had to reflect upon what progress has been made with the roll-out of the defective concrete block, DCB, scheme in County Clare since my last submission to this forum in July 2023. Sadly, very little progress has been made. In the almost two years since County Clare was admitted into the scheme, little to nothing has been done to relieve the plight of those affected in our county. This includes the fact that not a single grant has been granted in County Clare. Many of the points of concern raised at our last meeting remain entirely unaddressed. I am, therefore, resubmitting these points as issues remaining unaddressed with the addition of information about what is now emerging since the official opening of the DCB grant for application in Clare in July 2023.

The Housing Agency has deliberately delayed decisions for affected homeowners through the implementation of its own non-transparent metrics of processing, prioritisation and ranking. This includes the introduction of what it terms "quantums" to be reached before applications can progress through the scheme and the process of assessment, evaluation and decision-making, which is already highly complex and glacially slow. This, in effect, deliberately delays all applicants regardless of the individual circumstances or stage of an application. This batch processing methodology means those who have provided the necessary information are being placed on hold until certain numbers are reached within that particular stage of the procedure. In effect, individual homeowners are being left waiting for months before a decision will be given because a certain number of other applications are not yet at that stage. This delaying exacerbates the damage in all aspects, material and human.

Concerns persist among County Clare homeowners about shortfalls in the grant, which is not 100% redress. There is no doubt that it will not cover the full cost of rebuilding, remediation, site clearance and the reports required at all stages of the process. The longer the delays in awarding grants, the greater this shortfall will also be as building prices are only increasing.

Within the demographic of those affected in County Clare to date, advancing age is also presenting its own unique set of concerns. Access to loans to bridge shortfalls in the grant is a significant concern. Access to finance and remortgageability of these properties, which was raised via the recent subgroup of the implementation steering group, need to be actioned with urgency. This includes the Department moving quickly to ensure timely access to any grant given as well as legally underpinning the restoration of these properties to their full value. For those who hope to avail of the fair deal scheme, the full restoration of the monetary value of their property is essential. Penalty-free downsizing or rightsizing would have also assisted many in this bracket. Many in County Clare are applying to the scheme fearing they will not live to see their home restored and can only pass on the possibility of remediation to their family.

The Banking and Payments Federation Ireland's recent suggestion of access to a percentage of any sum awarded via an up-front State-guaranteed advance through the local authorities would need to be fast-tracked. This percentage must also be relevant and viable as not all homes will receive the figure of €420,000, which the Banking and Payments Federation Ireland seems to be using as a metric. It will need to be enough to begin the remediation and rebuild.

The appeals process does not seem to be fully operational or transparent. This will need to be fully functional with cases processed not as quantums but individually. Overall project management is needed for this scheme, including a database of professionals, builders and trades that are available, knowledgeable and able to take on the rebuilding and remediation of these homes in a timely manner.

Access to additional physical and mental health supports for affected homeowners in this crisis is urgently needed. The scheme entirely ignores the human impacts of living through this trauma, and it is trauma. All focus has been on the material, technical and financial costs of rebuilding and remediating these homes with no mention of the devastation it has caused to people, families and communities. The delays, difficulties and blockages, deliberate or negligent, are exacerbating the physical and mental health impacts.

The current IS 465 standard, which determines the assessment, evaluation and remediation recommendations for the scheme, is under review by the NSAI committee. The composition of this committee must be examined as there is a clear conflict of interest where certain individuals or parties acting on behalf of suppliers of defective concrete blocks or other potentially defective concrete products are participating in their own self-regulation post facto.

Regarding issues that remain unaddressed, fast-tracking access to all aspects of SEAI grants is essential. The issue of rebuilding on potentially faulty foundations is already presenting a problem as builders in County Clare will not rebuild without removing these foundations for fear of what might be in them and are quoting between €20,000 and €30,000 to homeowners. Of course, this cost is not covered by the scheme.

The fact that there is no letter of assurance for option 1 demolitions is a worrying indicator that the Government might not be so confident about option 1, which involves leaving foundations in place. There is no provision or consideration of the substantial economic cost of disposing of defective materials.

Unfortunately, the only mention of litigation involves litigation against homeowners. There has to be a full public inquiry into what happened here. We know testing is now being conducted in Tipperary, Wexford, Sligo and beyond, with mention in a previous committee meeting of at least 13 of the 26 counties having this problem. It is, therefore, a significant problem, one which just has not emerged completely, and there needs to be a full public inquiry into what happened here.

I think I introduced Dr. Cleary using her correct title but I misread the title of her group as the Clare Mica Action Group when I called on her to make her opening statement. I now invite Ms Josephine Murray to make her opening statement on behalf of the Mayo Pyrite Action Group. Is this correct?

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

It is Conor O'Donnell who is speaking. I am the secretary of the Mayo Pyrite Action Group. I am a Mayo homeowner who is currently rebuilding my home. Like all affected homeowners, I am finding that the new enhanced scheme still falls well short of what is required to rebuild my home. We are realising that many of the enhancements are just delaying mechanisms. The issues could easily and quickly be rectified if the will to do so at Government level was there.

The "Your Questions Answered" document states "the decision from Government is that existing applicants under the previous grant scheme will not be disadvantaged from being early movers". This is not the case. Those of us who hit the €420,00 cap and who are rebuilding our homes are being penalised. Testing fees of up to €7,000, which were paid by homeowners, are being taken from the current grant allocation. New joiners to the scheme do not have this cost. We also lose out on €15,000 for accommodation and €5,000 for storage. A homeowner joining the scheme now would not incur any testing fees.

SEAI grants have effectively stalled. Mayo homeowners are trying to engage but to no avail. Nobody at the SEAI knows what we are entitled to, despite the SEAI website stating "Grants are available to these homeowners under the same criteria as all other homeowners who are not affected with DCB". The nearly zero energy building regulations apply to rebuilding social housing but pyrite and mica homeowners are expected to rebuild using archaic standards, some of them 17 years old.

The building condition assessment and damage threshold is an issue of grave concern as it deprives homeowners of the correct scientific solution, which is option 1 demolition, and access to an independent engineer. This is forcing homeowners to remain in damp, unstable and crumbling homes with no light at the end of the tunnel. While we understand that prioritisation is needed, this is putting great mental strain on families. Nobody should have to go through this through no fault of their own.

The Department states "the DCB grant scheme is not a compensation or redress scheme" but, rather, it is a grant scheme of last resort put in place by the Government to voluntarily assist homeowners. Its primary aim is not to restore value or investment, nor to fund the full cost of rebuilding damaged homes but, rather, to ensure that homeowners can remain living in their homes. In that case, why are people still struggling to afford rebuilding their homes? There is still nothing in place with the banks as they will not lend against zero equity homes. Will members please tell me whether anything has been agreed with the banks regarding additional borrowing, remortgaging of remediated homes, insurance of remediated homes or, indeed, the selling of remediated homes under any of options 1, 2, 3 or 4? We know that engineers can only sign off on work they have completed. They acknowledged that in the matter of a home where an option other than full demolition was undertaken, the engineer engaged by the homeowner would not be signing off on retained blocks.

A Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI, review is badly needed as we cannot afford to rebuild our homes at today's rates. In February 2024, the SCSI revealed that house rebuilding costs had increased nationally by an average of 12%. The increase of 21% in 2022 and 2023 is still in place. The Department has requested updated costs and upon receipt of the report will consider recommended changes. We have also been informed by the Department that a 10% increase is what we will get, if an increase is given. Has this review been done by the SCSI and when can we expect to receive an update? Mayo Pyrite Action Group has been in place since 2013. Every time we ask these questions, it seems we are asking them for the first time. I ask for some continuity. I also ask members to familiarise themselves with the issues we have outlined. This matter can and must be resolved. I thank the committee.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. As a TD for Donegal based on the Inishowen Peninsula, I am all too familiar with the limitations of the scheme. I will focus on two areas as I am sure all members will want to cover as many points as possible.

The first area I want to focus on is the National Standards Authority of Ireland review of IS 465. At a previous committee hearing in public session, and privately afterwards, the NSAI conveyed serious concerns about what was a desktop study. We have a standard whereby homeowners are asked to remediate their homes based on a desktop study. As Ms Ward stated, there are now internationally peer-reviewed studies and the people responsible for these studies have already fed in findings to the NSAI.

The witnesses have rightly described as reckless in the extreme having a scheme, which the Cathaoirleach has stated will involve billions of euro of taxpayers' money, based on the wrong diagnosis. I have said that in Donegal we believe the scheme is like our families being diagnosed with the wrong cancer. I am sorry to use these terms but it is the only way I can describe it. This means it is the wrong prognosis and solution. It could not be more serious. The emerging evidence backs this up. I have another question but I would like to get a response from a number of the witnesses who have raised this.

Ms Lisa Hone

This is one of the most disturbing aspects for homeowners. Either the Government wants a science-led scheme or it does not. The science investigating the true nature of what is happening here has been taking place for more than two years. We had testimony prior to the legislation from international experts indicating and providing evidence that it involves internal sulphate attack. Since that time, the evidence being researched by a host of independent international concrete science specialists has got stronger and stronger.

With this evidence it is incredible that we find ourselves in a position where, despite all of this, and despite the CVs of the scientists investigating this using the most rigorous and scientific methodologies, we still have remediation solutions that are based on a standard that is now accepted as flawed. It is like the science has never happened. The NSAI is effectively sitting on its hands and not acknowledging it. I know that within the NSAI there is documentation and there are research papers and statements on which it should be acting. This is why we have said it is reckless. It is ignoring a burgeoning body of evidence of rigorous scientific research in favour of defaulting to a flawed desktop study that did not employ any scientific method. It is based on opinion and not science. That is what decisions are being made on today.

Dr. Martina Cleary

I have deep concerns and reservations about conflicts of interest in the composition of the NSAI panel. I was shocked recently to read some of the parliamentary questions asked about who is sitting on the panel. We in County Clare know, and I certainly know having interviewed 90 homeowners extensively over the past three years, who the suppliers are in our county. Unfortunately, I also have testimony from homeowners regarding the fact that over the years blocks were taken out of a number of houses by the supplier and sampled by particular companies. We know it has been going on in Clare for about 30 years. When the homeowners asked for the evidence from the blocks, or even access to the results of the tests, they were denied them.

Recently, I had to check some of the email records given to me by homeowners. I was disturbed to see that one of the individuals who was denying access to scientific testing for Clare homeowners was now part of the NSAI committee.

My concern is that an influential and powerful supplier is overtly or covertly influencing the acceptance of what has been scientifically proven. That should be investigated. There should be a full public inquiry. There should also be an inquiry into who from the large suppliers and their representatives is sitting on the panel.

I will move on and try to bring Deputy Mac Lochlainn back in later. I am trying to stick to six-minute slots.

It is more important that the homeowners have their say, so I have no problem with that.

TDs have to attend a vote now, so I will need someone to take the Chair. If I allowed Senator Fitzpatrick to contribute next, Senator Cummins could take the Chair and he could make his contribution once we were back. Is that okay? I am sorry to interrupt members, but we have been called to a vote in the Chamber and I want to keep the meeting going, as it is only a 90-minute meeting.

I can take the Chair, but the vote could last much longer than Senator Fitzpatrick’s contribution.

No, it is only on the Order of Business. I thank Senator Cummins.

Senator John Cummins took the Chair.

I thank the witnesses for attending, for their opening statements and for all of the work they have been doing to support homeowners. They articulated their frustrations clearly. It is frustrating for us, too, as this is half of the meeting we had wanted to hold. We invited the statutory agencies responsible for the operation and implementation of the scheme, but that was not possible today. It is our intention to have meetings with them in future and I commit to raising with them the questions the witnesses are posing today. Those meetings will be conducted in public. I say this by way of a response, as a number of the witnesses have asked specific questions that most of us on the committee are not in a position to answer. However, we can seek answers to those questions.

I believe Mr. O’Donnell referenced the inflation in construction costs, which is the first major issue. We are all conscious of it. Everyone talks about house prices. Inflation in construction costs is significant and a major driver. For the witnesses, it has a compounding effect because this is the second time they are investing in a home. Have they estimated what the additional costs will be? If €420,000 was the estimated cost of a full rebuild when the scheme was announced, what would a revised amount need to be? I appreciate that this is not an exact science and I will not hold Mr. O’Donnell to his answer, but it would be helpful for us to have an understanding of the scale. If he could share that information with us, it would be great. If any of the other witnesses wishes to contribute after Mr. O’Donnell, I will be happy to hear from them.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

I thank the Senator for her question. When I first started on the scheme in 2019, I was in disbelief that my house had pyrite. I had already spent €80,000 remediating it, having been told it had various problems. One of those was a loose roof, but that was not the issue. My gables were splitting and my roof was falling down. I replaced my windows and doors because they had all cracked and I could not open them anymore. I did not want to believe I had pyrite.

When I spoke to my friend, Ms Josephine Murphy, who is in attendance, she told me that I had pyrite and needed to get onto the scheme and get quotes from builders. In 2019, I was quoted €350,000 to rebuild my house. I am rebuilding my house this very second and my final bill will be €495,000. That is without any contingency. I am not building with blocks because I do not trust them. Once bitten, twice shy. I am building with ICF, which is a concrete product. My problem is that a levy on concrete products is coming in or is already in place – we do not know – but it will not be the quarries paying it. They are passing that levy on to us and we have to pay it. My demolition cost me €36,000. Before even laying a block, I spent €36,000 to get rid of the deleterious materials. I am a strong believer that when we say “deleterious materials”, they do not just include pyrite. There is a host of ingredients-----

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

-----that should not be in the blocks. I am lucky that I got in on the old scheme – Ms Murphy urged me to do so – because my house is being built now, and I feel sorry for the people in Clare or any other county who are trying to get through under the current damage threshold. Prices are only going to escalate. The SCSI published a report in October. According to that, prices had increased by 12% in the preceding 12 months and 21% in the 12 months prior. Builders and builders’ merchants have not knocked the €23,000 off the prices. It is still there.

Construction cost of inflation of 33% is-----

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

Huge.

That is essentially what it amounts to. Will Mr. O’Donnell give me an idea of the size of the house? He is saying his quote is now approximately €500,000.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

Yes. I bought that house when I retired six years ago. I thought I would love a little two-bedroom cottage with roses around it. You do not get that in Ireland anymore, so I bought what I thought was a beautiful house. It was a beautiful house when I bought it, but it deteriorated within months of me moving in. The house is 3,000 sq. ft. I am old school and do not do metric. However, if I wanted to shrink the size of my house and not do an upstairs, I would not get the same square footage, which would mean I would not get the same grant. I would be in deficit because I would get a grant that was proportional to my square footage. Everyone is saying I am hard hit because I have a big house, but I still have to fork out. This issue is hitting people with small houses, too. They are unfairly disadvantaged by the square footage factor and the SCSI rates.

I appreciate that.

Was it Dr. Cleary who spoke about the NSAI panel and the conflicts of interest therein?

Dr. Martina Cleary

That is correct.

Is Dr. Cleary there?

I am sorry. I did not hear her. Is that situation something Dr. Cleary has documented and can share with us?

Dr. Martina Cleary

Yes. I have emails from some homeowners relating to the issue of the supplier in our region taking blocks out of their houses and refusing to disclose the details. I was shocked to see that particular party listed as being on that committee.

It would be helpful if Dr. Cleary shared that information with me or the full committee.

Dr. Martina Cleary

Yes.

We would all be interested in receiving it. That would be useful.

I will call on Senator Moynihan because Deputy Dillon will take the first Fine Gael slot when the vote in the Dáil is completed.

What I intended was to give over my time to some people who probably needed more time. I think Senator Fitzpatrick explained that the idea behind this meeting was that it was going to be the initial meeting with affected homeowners and residents, and then we were going to do a follow-up with the State agencies that are responsible. With that in mind, the questions I have crafted are quite specific to that.

Dr. Cleary talked about the appeals process and what she identifies as an issue where each of the appeals processes are dealt with individually and not in quantums. Will Dr. Cleary explain to me how the appeals process works and how dealing with them individually will be a shift? Do they group actions or is it just that they are reporting on larger numbers there? I want a bit of clarification on what currently happens.

On the SEAI fast-tracking, will some of the witnesses give me an idea as to how long they are currently waiting through the SEAI process? I know it is an issue across the board, and I have no problem with fast-tracking for affected homeowners but I just want to get an idea of how long people are waiting.

Dr. Cleary also talked about disposal of materials, and Mr. O'Donnell talked about demolition. Can I get an idea of the average costs of disposal of materials, and then the average cost of demolition? A cost of €36,000 before you ever build was talked about but the disposal thing would be interesting with regard to the big additional cost that imposes on homeowners.

On the availability of builders themselves within the witnesses' individual regions, I know that is becoming a bigger issue. Let us say you have been approved for a grant, are ready to go and are shovel ready, for want of a better word, on a project, how long are people then waiting to be able to get builders to come in? I would be interested in that.

Will Dr. Cleary talk to me a little bit about the fair deal scheme? It was in her written statement but she did not address as much in her spoken statement. Does she have any suggestions on ways to do that and improve it? The statement talked about people qualifying for the fair deal scheme and waiting for their value to be restored. Is that the value of the house itself or is it a market value of the house? I want to get an explanation and clarification on that.

Dr. Martina Cleary

I will answer and try to remember all of them in order. On the first question around quantums, to be very clear, the scheme in County Clare did not open until July 2023. That was a full year after we were accepted into this scheme in June 2022. What happened on the ground was that we realised fairly quickly that there were houses that had gone through the rigorous core testing procedure to ensure the county was finally accepted. That was an incredibly tough and quite traumatic experience of two years before it was acknowledged. There were houses ready to go but when the Housing Agency actually came down onto the ground, it refused to give definitive answers as to whether those core tests would be accepted for the properties that had already been core tested. Then it introduced the term "quantums", and I asked directly what it meant by quantums. It said it would wait until 35 houses applied for the scheme and then it would send it to public tender or a tender for one of the engineering companies that had been appointed to its panel. That effectively introduced a three- or four-month wait period. We were waiting for a certain amount to get through.

The scheme itself has 22 questions and eight addendums. They had not rolled out any type of clinic to help particular elderly communities who did not have any digital resources. There were people who were ready to go, with their houses rotting and falling down, people who were already elderly and needed a decision. They were living through yet another winter, and the Housing Agency refused to process those applications based on its idea of a quantum. There is no mention of quantums whatsoever in the legislation, so I question that. Initially it was 35, and then it dropped to 25. Now, in Limerick, I have heard it is 20, and in Mayo I have heard it is 20. This is an arbitrary introduction of a new clause by the Housing Agency that is totally non-transparent. It effectively delays it.

We are at a stage now where it has core-tested, to my understanding, 22 houses, and has accepted three that were previously core-tested. It still has not given a decision on those houses that were core-tested. It has given no written confirmation. We have only been given verbal confirmation that the core testing will accepted. Those homes are still waiting for a decision. The quantum notion is being introduced as a way of further delaying.

That is a really good explanation, and that is exactly what I was wondering. I wanted that explored a little bit more for us to be able to put it to them.

Dr. Martina Cleary

When it comes to the appeals process, we are obviously watching very closely what is coming in from Donegal. Under the transitional agreement, a lot of properties were transitioned from the older scheme to the new scheme but there were houses that did not quite make it through. It used to be the local authority that was making the determination but there were a certain amount of houses that were passed across to the Housing Agency and they recently received a number of decisions, or an option 2 for houses where the initial expert engineer had said that these are option 1 demolitions. I am sure Ms Hone will be able to speak about that.

We are dreading this happening in County Clare as well. We do not think we are going to be treated exceptionally differently. We have already heard from Donegal that the appeals process is not up and running yet. We are prepared to start appealing, but if we start appealing to a procedure that has not actually been instigated, then that is what we are worried about. It is another delaying mechanism.

On the Senator's other point about the fair deal scheme, what has emerged, unfortunately, is that there are a lot of elderly people impacted in County Clare. Many of them will be relying on their property where, under the fair deal scheme, you can put the value of your property up against your nursing home costs. We had at least two homeowners at a meeting at the launch of the scheme who are literally homeless and could not avail of this. They raised this concern through one of our local TDs, Deputy Cathal Crowe. He raised this as an issue, and the answer that came back was it would be dealt with on a one-by-one basis. Before this meeting, I even spoke to one of our own young local authority aspirants for the next election. We were discussing exactly this matter, and he is getting the same from about four or five people in his area. Unfortunately, if you are elderly, you cannot be dealing on a one-to-one basis to see if your home actually holds value.

We went into the financial working subcommittee and there was extensive discussion there. Donegal has been discussing with Banking and Payments Federation Ireland about whether these properties will be remortgageable and whether their full value will be restored. Unfortunately, it seems to be at a crux at the moment where Engineers Ireland is not prepared to sign off on remediation options where there is any potential for defective material being left in the buildings. The banks will not restore the value of the properties, so elderly people have been left in absolute limbo. That is the last thing you need at that advanced age, with advanced illness and all of those other issues. This is going to exacerbate that human impact.

Ms Lisa Hone

I wonder if I could come in?

Ms Hone will have an opportunity to come in on the next slot. Perhaps Deputy Dillon might have some latitude for Ms Hone to answer.

Absolutely. Does she want to answer now?

Ms Lisa Hone

I wanted to come in on a couple of things. Senator Moynihan talked about this SEAI fast-tracking process. Let us just be clear: at the moment, as it stands, there is no SEAI process. We are eight months into a live scheme, and there is no clarity for homeowners with regard to steps A, B and C for going through the process. We were promised an integrated fast-track procedure. At the moment, we have no procedure. I know there are certain homeowners in Donegal who are availing of the services of a particular energy advisory expert. That professional is managing, through experience of working with SEAI schemes, to pick her way through it, but she is extremely frustrated with the process and the lack of clarity. It is absolutely astounding that we are eight months into a scheme and it does not exist. All we are told is that there are still conversations going on between the Department of housing and the Department of the environment.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

I applied in July 2023-----

I have to allow Deputy Dillon to come in.

Deputy Steven Matthews resumed the Chair.

I thank Ms Hone and I thank Senator Cummins for allowing me to substitute in this committee matter which is certainly a really difficult issue in my own county of Mayo. I thank our witnesses for being here and for advocating for all of the homeowners in each of their counties and for those who have been seriously impacted, their lives destroyed and their mental health being challenged daily. I also welcome Mr. Conor O'Donnell and thank him for his opening submission on behalf of the Mayo Pyrite Action Group. With regard to his opening submission, I presume the purpose of this engagement is that we would have recommendations or a report to go forward to the Department and the Housing Agency with regard to revising this scheme and listening to both the chairs of the group and those who have been seriously impacted.

I have some questions for Mr. O'Donnell. In his opening statement he talked about the new scheme falling short of meeting the requirements of rebuilding homes in Mayo. Will he elaborate on the aspects he perceives to be delaying mechanisms? I know that Mayo County Council is the lead authority in delivering the scheme but will he summarise the feedback on the ground with regard to how it is being administered?

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

I thank the Deputy. I have to say that Mayo County Council has done everything it can within its power. While we were on the old scheme it did very good work and I have to give Mayo County Council that. However, its hands are tied now.

Going back to SEAI, for instance, we can get a grant for €6,500 for a heat pump at the moment which is the way forward, apparently. However, I applied to the SEAI in July, and this will probably come into Senator Moynihan's question as well, under the defective concrete blocks, DCB, grant scheme and I have not even got so much as an acknowledgement, not an email or a letter, nothing. The website changes daily as to what is available.

Also, we have a huge issue with the builders. Our builders in Mayo and many rural places are small builders. They are not SEAI-qualified. To get one's boiler put in or to get one's pump or solar put in one has to go out and get a separate SEAI-registered engineer from somewhere. There are only a handful of them in Ireland and they are not prepared to come to Mayo or even to Blacksod, or Binghamstown where I live, and do that work. We cannot avail of it even if it was available. Something we were told, as the guys in Donegal have said already, would be streamlined and seamless is not. There is a huge amount of paperwork to be done but nothing is being done at the same time.

As for the costs, to begin with, we have got Mayo County Council and it is, in my opinion, doing a good job but the resources are very scanty. With regard to the foundations, for instance, I will not build a house and spend my hard-earned money on a house that has dodgy foundations. I had my foundation tested and that cost €1,700. It cost €36,000 just for demolition. If I want my builder to build the walls and then at the end of the building of the walls the builder will do a drawdown on the grant, it can take six weeks for that to come through. What is the builder supposed to do in the meantime, sit around and wait? Unless you have money to give to the builder to continue work while the grant is coming through you are stuck. The builder will have to move on to another job where they do have money. Builders are not multinationals.

Really, it is the issue of payment and the delays associated with those needing to be processed in a more substantial manner.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

Yes.

Can I just ask with regard to the area of disadvantage for existing applicants who were on the previous scheme and who then transitioned onto the new scheme? Mr. O'Donnell talked about the €15,000 for accommodation and the €5,000 storage benefits on existing applicants missing out.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

Yes.

The expectation was that this would be seamless for those who had been approved and would have been tested, that the would have been automatically moved on to the new DCB. Mr. O'Donnell is saying that is not the case.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

It is an ancillary grant which must be applied for so it is a separate grant. Again, it is a lot of paperwork for anybody to do, old or young.

Is the paperwork the barrier or is it just-----

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

It is not, for anybody on the €420,000 cap. All someone will get is €420,000 so the money the Government gave us back for our boring and testing - the €6,500 to €7,000 - gets taken off us straight away. Then, one is not entitled to any more than €420,000 so one will not get €5,000 for storage or the €15,000. The nearest storage to me is in Westport. To hire a sea container there that is insulated is €65 per week. I needed anything up to six of those to put my belongings into. That was going to cost €1,040 per month. That is without paying rent or a mortgage, etc. on an empty house. How can people afford to build their houses? They cannot. Everything is unrealistic.

I have to move on Deputy as we are tied to six-minute slots. Apologies for the interruption for the vote. I am going back to the Independent slot and then the Social Democrats slot. Deputy O'Donoghue is next and then we will be into the second round.

I thank the Chair and thank the witnesses for coming in. I am a building contractor and have been all my life. I am a block layer by trade so who can better talk about this? I am not talking to a desktop. The desktop study that was done on this is ludicrous. How do you see something and explain something to somebody if you can do it yourself, which I can do.

At the last committee meeting I was at, before I got sick that time, we asked for the foundations to be included. Why? Because the new housing building regulations mean that walls are wider, insulation is wider within the household, and the roof timbers under the new regulations are heavier so they are going from 4 in. x 2 in. to 6 in. x 2 in. or 7 in. x 2 in. Roof loads and everything will be bigger on a foundation and the old foundations were based on being approximately what was called at that time 18 in. wide and 18 in. depth. They are now 900 mm wide, which is 36 in. wide and they go with the 350 mm depth. That is because they were spreading the weight load. Anyone who comes up with a desktop study and says a new house can be built on top of an old foundation should not be doing that desktop study in the first place. They should ask people who know what they are doing. How to better ask people who know what they are doing is to ask a contractor. We have been looking at people who are on the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, and have been talking about people who are on the group. As a contractor, and I am still a contractor, I get a weekly update on price increases. From the same people who are on that group I have got three increases in the last eight months and they are after getting a 5% levy on every block and concrete product that goes into a house. Now they have hit us with 30% increase in our products, which are being used to build houses for the people who have been affected. They are sitting on the board of the group. If people are asking if they have a conflict of interest, is that not the biggest conflict of interest someone can have?

The Government is standing idly by and watching this. The Government is taking advice from people who know nothing about building. People then got their houses insulated, with pumped insulation, and I asked - and it is on the record - for any house that was to be insulated with pumped insulation for it to be tested first. If there was no pyrite or mica they then can be pumped with insulation because if they have it, there will be a problem within two to three years. The same problems with houses will show up again. Did the Government do it? No. It did not listen. Why has the Government not listened to people who know what they are talking about? I thank my colleagues to my left who have been working very hard on this and we have worked together on this. Why? Because they value the information that somebody can give them because they know what they are talking about. They are not talking to a desktop but to someone who has experience of this.

Why does the Government not listen to people who have experience in and who are qualified in the field of construction? It is because they look at a computer and say that if it is written down, it has to be true but it is not practical. This goes back to what I keep saying: common sense is not that common when it comes to policy-making because people who are making policies do not understand the practicalities of it. People are coming back to us again pleading that the systems are wrong but they are still not listening. Why not make the people who make this accountable? We should ask one of them to go out and build one of these houses or find storage for a house at a time when there is a housing crisis.

The previous speaker got two additional minutes. People have been allowed to speak. If the Chair is being flexible with everybody, I would like him to be flexible with a person who actually knows what he is talking about.

I remind Deputy O'Donoghue of the time constraints. I need to bring other people in.

I understand that. In today's market, someone would be lucky to finish out a 2,100 sq. ft house at €420,000. That is not including planning permission fees, engineering fees or any other fees. That is on the basis of today's costs. Those costs are rising. We are eight or nine months out of that system. That is why it galls me. I was missing for much of this due to illness, but I am back now. The people involved need to be held accountable. If they have a conflict of interests, they should not be on those boards. I see it on a weekly basis. The paper comes to me and shows me the increase day to day.

I fully concur with everything the witnesses are saying. I will do everything with my colleagues to make sure that we get people who listen and who understand what they are talking about to help them. I will do whatever I can do and I will work with colleagues to make sure we get the real redress system for this.

This has been put on the record of the Dáil and of this committee. Are those in government and in the Department afraid to say they got it wrong? That is what they are saying, because they are looking at it. They got something wrong because they did not listen. That is the question I have for the people here who are frustrated and who spend their time coming back here to get redress for those who are suffering. Will this committee ask for accountability within the relevant sections?

I said at the outset that the questions posed by the groups before us will be put to those agencies when they come in. I am keeping a list of questions. Things often occur to witnesses after they have left a meeting. If the witnesses have other questions they want to pose, they should send them to the committee secretariat. We will list all those questions and put them to the agencies. We will write to them and we will also bring them before the committee to put the questions.

I ask for a small bit of leniency. The Chair gave an extra two minutes to the previous speaker. I ask him to give the two minutes to the witnesses, particularly if they want to reply to that.

I do not want to have to cut short anybody's time. If there is a question and if someone wishes to answer, I ask them to be as brief as possible. If not, I think I have covered it in what I said.

Ms Angela Ward

I would like to make a comment. This is the third meeting of the committee at which we have said that IS 465 is flawed and not fit for purpose. How many times do we need to do this before change is made? A comment by Damien Owens of Engineers Ireland to the committee in 2022 really struck me. He said that until all the research is there, none of the research is there. We have a good deal of research. Government cannot disclaim responsibility anymore. IS 465 is not fit for purpose. As much as they would like to pretend it does not exist, it does.

Even though there are questions I would like to ask, I am going to give up my slot because I know other people have much more pertinent questions and come from the constituencies affected.

I thank all the witnesses for the very strong contributions they made. I ask Dr. Cleary to expand on the call for a public inquiry.

Dr. Martina Cleary

I am very conscious of who the supplier is in our area; it is the same supplier for Limerick. Even now, the Housing Agency has admitted it is testing in Tipperary. That is no surprise. We are talking about the largest supplier of building products in the State. It is the largest company in the State. It is the third largest company in the world. It has annual profits that run to €6.4 billion. The last deal it did in America was worth $35 billion. We have a scheme here that is the biggest in the State, coming in at €2.7 billion, €3 billion or whatever. It is us who are paying for it.

I am a taxpayer. As a single female in this State, I pay huge amounts of tax for very little. Now, I have lost my home. I am being asked to pay for my home again out of taxes. There were some very insulting comments made by senior politicians about us causing general taxpayer bills for the State. That is grossly offensive. It is also grossly offensive that the only people who can be sued or litigated against in any way are the homeowners. There needs to be a full public inquiry. Aidan O'Connell, one of the leading experts in pyrite in the country, said at one of the meetings here that he knows at least 13 counties are impacted. That is half of the Republic of Ireland. If there is a massive multibillion euro company that is allegedly responsible for this, why is it being let off the hook?

Ms Lisa Hone

We have attended a number of meetings of the committee at this stage. I have also been to a finance committee meeting. At every one of those, the issue of accountability has been raised. Three years ago the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, promised that senior counsel would be appointed. An independent regulator was also promised, but that has still not happened. There is no movement. We are just stonewalled at every turn. It does not matter whether it is on the issue of the science, cost, accountability or mortgageability. These are all fundamental flaws that stopped the scheme from working.

Meanwhile there is no accountability. As Dr. Cleary rightly pointed out, we are not to blame for any of this. All we did was buy houses. We did so just as anybody else in the country does. We did all the checks and balances. We had solicitors and surveyors. We did everything right. We did not do anything differently, but this has landed at our door.

There were comments about what cap we should have. There should not be a cap. We paid for these houses. Size is irrelevant. This is not our fault. We did not cause this. This was caused by negligence on the part of the State, which did not have regulatory governance of any meaningful type in place to stop this happening. It went on for years because there was nobody to put the brakes on. There was no mechanism in the State. Those responsible for the market surveillance must have been living in La La land.

This cannot be put at the door of homeowners. There must be a public inquiry to find out the root cause of this. God forbid that this happens again, particularly as the systems in this country are fundamentally the same as they were when it happened. There has been no fundamental change in market surveillance, follow-up or how quarries operate since it happened. Everybody in the State is at risk. We are not only fighting for our own homes, but we are also fighting for the State to make meaningful changes so that everybody in Ireland is protected because right now they are not.

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

Everybody asks why IS 465 was written. Many standards could be used, including a European standard. Why was this one written? It was obviously written to cover something up. It needs to be taken away completely. Science is no longer a part of the new enhanced scheme. Why is IS 465 the building block of that scheme when it is irrelevant? The science is just being ignored. We all need to ask why was there in the first place.

I thank all the witnesses for attending and for their opening statements.

I can hear the frustration in their voices, and we understand how frustrating it is to have to come back here over and over again. However, it is also important that other people in this building hear that things not only have not got better but, in some sense from the testimony given at the start, have actually got worse. The witnesses should not think these are wasted opportunities. They are genuinely valuable, at least for those of us paying attention. I wish those Deputies who voted for this scheme when it was rushed through the Oireachtas - there are no such Deputies currently in this room - were here to listen to what has been said. The witnesses and this committee were told that legislation and the regulations would fix the problems the witnesses told our committee about previously that existed with the original scheme, either for counties Donegal or Mayo or for those counties not included. What is quite troubling is that not only are all those issues that were raised still being raised but it seems that solving them is even more difficult. One of the most troubling things about the new scheme is that I asked the Minister earlier this year how many new applicants had applied for the scheme. The numbers are genuinely concerning in that, in Mayo, at the time the question was answered, there were only nine new applications. That was six months into the scheme that was meant to fix the problems with the old one. In Donegal, there were only 160 applications, barely one tenth of what was in the other scheme. While Clare and Limerick have 49 and 18 applications, as Dr. Cleary has said, many of those applicants were early movers who could have been progressed earlier and were not.

Beyond what the witnesses have already said, what is dissuading the people they are talking to in their counties from applying? What are the big ticket items that mean people who live in defective homes are not applying? They have outlined the problems with people in the system trying to get resolution. That is my first question.

We obviously have to be careful because of privilege and rules of the House when it comes to naming people, but I am taken by what Dr. Cleary has said about conflicts of interest. I invite her to write to our committee in brief form setting out those concerns more explicitly than she can in an open session because of the rules. This committee needs to consider those matters and to put those questions to the NSAI and the Department either in writing or when they are in front of this committee. Without asking Dr. Cleary to undertake more work, perhaps she could set that out more explicitly in written form. If there are conflicts of interest at the heart of the review of the standard underpinning the scheme, that is a very big issue which our committee has an obligation to responsibly work its way through. I give her a commitment that if she writes to the committee, I will endeavour to get it to do the right thing.

I have other questions, but starting with Mayo followed by Clare and Donegal, what is stopping people applying for the scheme they were told would resolve the problems of the earlier scheme?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

To begin, they are looking at their homes and the sizes of their homes. I knew the old scheme would never cover the cost. I believed at one stage that the new scheme would, but it does not. Storage alone would cost €1,040 per month to empty my house, which is substantial. I would need to rely on a company coming from almost one and a half hour's drive away to Binghamstown, County Mayo, to take my stuff. I have no idea how long it would be in storage and so how much that would cost. Accommodation is another thing. We have a family in Westport, County Mayo, commuting to Connemara every day because there is no accommodation at the moment. It is very hard to find and is very expensive. The other thing is the build costs. The build costs when we started looking at this three and four years ago were much different. We believed, when the new scheme came in, it would solve our problems but all it did was make the concrete producers and builders as well as landlords and storage facilities put their prices up.

What is the gap between the grant Mr. O'Connell will get and the full rebuild cost of his home?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

I qualify for the €420,000 because of the square footage of my house. However, because I was on the old scheme, I tested. The €6,500 I was paid back will come off my grant, so I am down by that straight away. Because I am on the €420,000 cap, I also do not qualify for the €15,000 for accommodation. Neither do I qualify for the €5,000 for storage. When I started looking at building costs in 2019, the cost of rebuilding my house was in the region of €350,000. I am now looking at €495,000, and that is with nothing going wrong.

Leaving aside the extra costs Mr. O'Connell mentioned, there is a gap of between €70,000 and €80,000 for him simply to replace the home he originally bought. That is separate to accommodation and storage. There is a gap of more than €80,000 just with the build costs.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Yes, it is almost €90,000.

Perhaps I could get quick responses from Donegal and Mayo in the six seconds I have left.

Ms Lisa Hone

The lack of confidence is coming from a number of areas. The first is the science. Homeowners are tapped into what is going on with the research in Donegal. There was research and commentary published recently. There was evidence of internal sulphur attack causing degradation in the home in all areas of the concrete, with oxidation of pyrrhotite observed in stripped foundations at an early stage, with sulphur being released into the concrete. They are tapped into stuff like that. People are watching and waiting. Why would you engage in a scheme which does not help you to do the right thing? Even option 1, demolition, does not include foundations, so that is on your own back. The other thing is, if you engage with the scheme, is your house going to be mortgageable at the end? Even if you work within the parameters of option 1 of the scheme, from Engineers Ireland and from the mortgage lenders, we do not have the assurances that if we go through this process, do exactly what we are told and come out the other side, we will be able to remortgage or insure our homes or they will be worth anything like they should be. There are also the financial issues in terms of cash flow. Thousands of euro are needed upfront to progress along this process. If you do not have that, you effectively cannot progress. There are also shortfalls.

I will give a quick example. For a current home of 156 sq. m, the actual cost would be pretty much €359,000. The grant cost is just below €320,000. That is a shortfall of almost €40,000. That is the reality of what is going on. As Ms Ward said in her opening statement, it is not 100% redress. I can give more examples with smaller homes. For a modest semi-detached home, there is a €30,000 shortfall. I could go on. I have examples and more examples and, guess what, everybody is having to find tens of thousands of euro. When you get to the bigger homes, that pushes towards €100,000 or more in some cases.

I will allow Ms Hanley to come in.

Ms Mary Hanley

I have listened carefully to what everybody has said. More or less like what I have written in front of me, most of them have stated the obvious. I ask the Chair, how many Members of the Oireachtas are on the housing committee?

There are 14 members.

Ms Mary Hanley

Are there 14 members present today?

No, but members have other business. They might be in the Dáil Chamber or the Seanad, but they do come in-----

Ms Mary Hanley

They may come in for five minutes and disappear.

That is their business. I want to move on and stick to the redress scheme and not the conduct of members.

Ms Mary Hanley

I am addressing the redress scheme. The committee wants to know why people are not applying. It is because people do not believe any more that the politicians have any interest in solving this problem. I had the Minister for housing in my house on 27 August 2021, and he said, "Isn't it a shame, your beautiful home?" I said I would be six foot under before anything was done. It is now 2024.

The Minister for housing was in County Clare last Friday. Nobody in the pyrite action group heard anything about it. He did not call to see my house with 40 extra cracks since he was there the last time. My question is for the politicians who are not sitting here but should be. How interesting. I listened to Senator Fitzpatrick. She wants to know and it is great to hear all this. I was in the implementation group and asked, at the end of two and a half hours of talks from the banks and insurance companies, what we had decided on today. Two people from the Department of Finance said they had a clearer understanding. My God, how many more years will it take to understand what we in counties Clare, Donegal, Mayo and Limerick are going through, because quite honestly-----

Thank you, Ms Hanley. Sorry, I have to end this session. I have to be fair to everybody.

Ms Mary Hanley

Okay. Thank you.

We are done on members so I will go to Deputies McHugh and Wynne. If we have time, I will briefly go to other members.

I appreciate the Cathaoirleach facilitating my contribution as I am not a member. I have one important question. I assume the committee has asked it. Why are the housing officials not here?

I said at the start that the purpose of the meeting was to meet with the representative groups from Mayo, Clare and Donegal and that the second meeting will be to have in the Housing Agency and a number of other agencies. They were all unavailable this time so the committee decided to reschedule that meeting. We will take the concerns, questions and issues raised here and put them to the officials from those various agencies when we can get them in and agree a meeting time.

It is not for me to decide the logistics and operation of the committee - I would not dare do that - but it would be more appropriate to have officials or an official from the Department here. There is such a thing as getting a feel for the committee and you do not get it if officials from the Department of housing are in the Custom House listening online. They will not get a feel for what is going on in this room. That is something that should be taken from this. I have a number of questions but who am I asking? If somebody is listening in the Custom House, we need to find out the timeframe for the review of the scheme. It is obvious there are many changes required and many deficits in the scheme. They have been articulated well today.

I was reflecting coming up from Donegal today that we keep saying the same thing over and over. I am reminded of a parishioner of mine who said "When all's said and done, there's a lot more said than done".

I will provide the specific example of a homeowner in the middle of building his new house. He has an outstanding mortgage of €130,000. By the time he is finished, all the extra costs of demolition, works up to the subfloor, putting in a new foundation and all the ancillary costs and storage costs, as mentioned by one of the Mayo contributors, will have left him with an outstanding mortgage of €300,000. If anybody listening to the committee from outside of the counties represented here – Dr. Cleary mentioned tests being done in Tipperary - thinks this is a giveaway scheme, they are living on a different planet. Imagine being in your 50s with kids grown up and ready for university and finding you have an outstanding mortgage of €130,000 on a house that does not exist any more but which does not go away. He will add €170,000 to it, which will increase his monthly payment by €1,500. Imagine the trauma for that family. That is the message the campaign group has been trying to reinforce year after year and there is still a deep misunderstanding about the scheme.

This is a humanitarian crisis. There will be a public inquiry. It is in Europe. This will be the single biggest public inquiry the State has ever seen and the Government keeps coming back saying it is throwing such and such a figure at it. That is not the point. The point is this trauma has been compounded over not one but two decades.

There are issues with mortgageability even after the work is done. I know the subcommittee works closely with Patrick Sharkey and the group in Donegal. Somebody mentioned accountability today. There is no accountability. The symbolism of having not even one official from the Department of Housing here today is loud.

This is a health issue. The Department of Health should be involved in this. This is having an effect on people's health. It is intergenerational. People in their 70s have to rock up to a bank or credit union asking for a loan and be told they are too old. They do not have the capacity to get credit. It is an OPW issue. As Deputy Mac Lochlainn knows, there was a housing estate affected by the floods in Buncrana in 2017. Nine houses were affected by floods and are on a floodplain; they came up with a proposal. Officials from the OPW, in fairness to them, came to Buncrana to a public meeting. There is a common sense solution there but what will the Department of housing insist? It will insist on doing up those houses on a floodplain rather than relocation. It is a Department of Education issue. Donegal has submitted a proposal to that Department for support for young people in secondary school in Donegal. It is a Department of enterprise issue, given the amount of businesses that have defective blocks. It is a Department of agriculture issue because there are piggeries in my constituency with defective blocks. It is a Department of environment issue because some people trying to access SEAI grants are hitting brick walls.

I said last week in the Dáil that this is too big an issue for the Department of housing and is not just about defective blocks. There is an overall responsibility and it has to start at the very top. It has to be led by the Department of the Taoiseach, bringing in the relevant Secretaries General from each of those Departments and others I have not mentioned. This has to be dealt with. People are suffering and cannot deal with this issue. All of a sudden, they have to become engineers and architects and deal with contractors. Not only are they dealing with credit deficits, but they are also trying to figure out something they do not have the requisite skills for.

I acknowledge the groups for coming in. I know the work they are doing. We as politicians get the individual cases that come directly to us. I do not know how the groups try to rationalise all the complexity of this but one word that keeps coming up is "trauma". There is trauma here and there will be justice but it is a shame it will have to wait until it is too late for many people.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me time. I thank the group representatives for coming in. I am a public representative from Clare so I pay special tribute to Dr. Cleary for all the hard work she has been doing on behalf of the county. I acknowledge the sheer frustration coming from Ms Hanley. I went out to see her house. To know we are still at the start of the process and not on the other side is hugely disappointing because I have seen first-hand the difficulties she has in her property, as with many others in County Clare.

Dr. Cleary mentioned a potential public inquiry. It is important to point out there are offending parties that have gotten away scot-free with this negligent practice that has destroyed these people's homes. Some continue to regulate their own industry. People here today and people across Ireland building a house are paying for a crisis not of their creation through the levy. This conflict and the wider story need to be investigated and those responsible must be held to account. I fully support Dr. Cleary's request for a public inquiry.

Witnesses mentioned significant delays from the Housing Agency. I spoke well over a year ago about the health implications for the witnesses and their family members of the delays, distress, frustration and everything else that comes with not knowing how this process will unfold.

Could she speak to that specific point? The suffering that has gone on behind closed doors for those impacted families is not getting enough airtime at this time.

A new facilitator has been appointed to Clare County Council. Has that helped or alleviated any of the communication issues? Does it promote advocacy of the issues our guests are experiencing with the defective blocks scheme or is the facilitator just assisting with the application process?

The witnesses made the point there is not 100% redress and highlighted the significant impact that is having. Someone who contacted me today about the initial assessment was unsure as to whether they were to pay the bill or what the situation was in that regard. On getting the clarification, it is not being communicated to homeowners and some of these people are in their 80s. It is unfair and unjust that they are having to front-load their payments in the first instance when they were promised 100% redress.

Dr. Martina Cleary

The Deputy hit the nail on the head with the word "suffering". With a new research project, I recently visited homes I had not been to for about two years. As to why there have been only 49 applications so far since the launch of the scheme in Clare, I have dealt with homeowners in their 70s. One of them, who is 75 years of age, came to the most recent public meeting and asked what he is supposed to do. He said he cannot secure a loan from the bank and asked what he will be passing on. All I could advise him to do was apply to the scheme in order that he will not be passing on a derelict site with a hole in the ground to his children. How can he even approach a bank? It is that level of suffering. Even people in their 50s have told me they are not going to put themselves or their children through that for whatever time they have left and will instead just keep patching up their house. It is about quality of life.

In the case of another couple, the gentleman, who is 69 years of age, has retired and has just had a hip replacement. They had a beautiful family home but they are living in one room because it is freezing outside it. They cannot open the doors to get from their kitchen into their living room. They have one bedroom left to sleep in that does not have black mould in it. That is their quality of life as they face into their 70s. It is a tragic and shocking disgrace.

As part of my research, I went to Mayo last weekend and spoke to a woman who has been campaigning for over a decade. She has lost her husband. She said her husband will never come home. I do not want to go into too much detail, but she said his quality of life and his health have gone beyond repair. She has lost her family and not just her home. I do not know how she was even able to give an interview in that circumstance. Her only son was tearing down the home around her and she had lost her husband, who will never come home to her. This side of the story is a shocking disgrace on this State, but the discussions have only been about money and technical matters up to this point.

Ms Josephine Murphy

I am going into my 11th year of fighting, begging and pleading. I was one of the people who showed the expert panel around my home town, Belmullet, and organised that visit. The same team came twice and then drew up their report. What I found interesting about the report was that I think their disclaimer is really and truly an attempt to cover their backs. The panel found it necessary to print a disclaimer at the beginning of its report, a copy of which I have to hand. It states:

The Expert Panel did not commission or carry out any tests on buildings or building materials itself and was dependent on technical information supplied directly to it by homeowners and concerned parties. The Panel have no responsibility for the accuracy of the technical reports and information received by it and the Report should be read in that light. It was not part of the Panel’s remit to apportion responsibility for any building defects drawn to its attention and it has not done so.

The panel came back twice to examine the same houses after about a six-month gap to see how fast they were deteriorating, but not one core sample was taken and not one block ever left Belmullet. The only block that left Belmullet was in March 2014, when a team of us went to the Custom House to meet officials from Phil Hogan's Department at the time. We brought one of the defective blocks in a fertiliser bag and we were told to go home and sue the builder because the Department did not deal with pyrite in blocks but only with the hardcore in foundations.

The panel's remit from the Government was not to commission testing or verify the defects in the blocks. Why did it get that remit? It suggests the Government knew all along there was a problem, and that is why we have ended up with IS 465. That needs to be investigated. As Dr. Cleary said, there is a conflict of interest here, of which we are all very much aware. Most of the people who drew up IS 465 are now on the review panel again. It is so frustrating-----

I understand, and I apologise for having to interrupt Ms Murphy. I thank her for making those points.

I thank the witnesses for again appearing before the committee, in particular Mr. O'Donnell and Ms Murphy. Ms Murphy reminded me that we have been working on this for 11 years in Mayo to try to get a solution and here we are again today discussing so many serious issues. I do not want to go back over what has been said, so I will concentrate my comments on anything our guests want to say. I am also a member of the finance committee, before which representatives of the Central Bank appeared a couple of weeks ago. I was appalled to hear the Central Bank's attitude to the way everything within the scheme has been handled. There does not seem to be any responsibility, even though banks under its jurisdiction made a lot of money from homeowners with an asset worth zero and they continued to take money all the time. Will our guests comment on that?

I have questions also about the SEAI. I have to hand a lot of documentation that has gone back and forth to the SEAI. Nobody, as far as I can see, is making progress. Will the witnesses speak to that? Do they know anyone among the people they are dealing with who is making progress with the SEAI, the banks or the insurance companies, which also come under the Central Bank?

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

I applied in July 2023 to the SEAI and I have not received even an acknowledgment of my application. I have rung the authority on several occasions and been told I am on its books but that is it. The website changes daily. One person in Mayo has managed to get a grant, but they had to build their house and move into it and then they applied for the individual grant. They had to go through the rigmarole of getting BER tests, paying out for that and then waiting while they got a retrospective grant for their home, not under the DCB option because that does not exist. It is the same for all of us. We do not know what to do.

The other issue relates to small builders in Mayo and elsewhere in rural Ireland. I am sure it is the same for Clare and Donegal. They are not SEAI registered. There are SEAI-registered groups that do the one-stop shop but we are not allowed to avail of them. They are not available on the DCB grant scheme, so we are stuck with the DCB grant scheme version of SEAI grants. It is not there, effectively, and nobody is availing of it. It is not going to be made simple.

Dr. Martina Cleary

At the sub-committee recently, the banking federation proposed a potential advance of between 10% and 15% of the grant awarded. It made that calculation based on a figure of €420,000 and straight away I thought it was making an assumption that everybody will get the full amount, which is problematic. Very few will get that amount. That figure was already faulty because it will not be enough to start. Depending on the size of the house, €30,000, €40,000 or perhaps €60,000 will be needed to clear the site, get the reports done and everything else. It was amazing to me that in the calculation was based on the immediate assumption that everybody would get €420,000.

Many homeowners are stuck with mortgages on these properties that are essentially worth nothing. In County Clare, we have not received a grant yet. Many people are afraid to declare it to their banks because they are afraid the mortgage will be handed over to a vulture fund and moved off the books. At the recent committee meeting, we heard a verbal assurance that that the banks would not do that. Is that really the case? We need something in writing, legislation that protects the impacted homeowners so they have an assurance that if they declare it or ask for additional credit or anything like that, coming forward will not result in an additional penalty for them.

If my next question has already been addressed, please ignore it. Mr. O'Donnell said the engineer engaged by the homeowner will not be signing off on retained blocks on the foundations. My understanding from that is that if the foundations are not replaced and the engineer refuses to sign off, the home will not be mortgageable or insurable into the future. Is that a correct understanding?

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

We discussed at the previous meeting in Leinster House the definition of what a foundation is. We said there are strip foundations and raft foundations. Strip foundations contain blocks. If someone has blocks in their house and it has a strip foundation, the blocks are bound to be the same, in other words, both will be defective.

People could spend hundreds of thousands of euro but this is not based on science and no engineer will sign off on it. Is that really the situation we are in today?

Mr. Conor O'Donnell

It is for the new scheme. There is no testing. It is a desktop study, basically. If you meet the damage threshold, you are pushed forward by the council to the Housing Agency. It looks at it to determine whether you hit the damage threshold. If you do, then it will send testing but that is it. If you build your house and you get option 2, 3 or 4, for instance, and you keep your blocks - you replace the outer leaf, keeping the inner leaf - no engineer will sign off on that.

Ms Lisa Hone

I will make a point on that. There is a big difference between this and previous schemes. The Leinster pyrite scheme was an end-to-end scheme. A lot of the issues homeowners face in trying to deal with the defective blocks scheme are taken away because there is an end-to-end scheme. The finances are handled by the agency. Also, a fundamental difference is the testing and all the preparation. Effectively, the house is assessed and built back the way it was prior to the issue emerging. All of the issues homeowners are mired in - it feels like wrestling with an octopus sometimes - would go away if there was an end-to-end scheme. The principles of how the scheme is organised are plain wrong.

A big difference between this scheme and the Leinster pyrite scheme is that it removes all deleterious material. That is a fundamental. It is one of the reasons we have so many issues still overhanging with this scheme. Even with option 1, it does not deal with the poured concrete foundations. You still may have potentially deleterious material in your poured concrete foundations. That is what the research says. That is where the issue regarding mortgageability comes in. You are potentially retaining defective materials. With options 2, 3 and 4, you have defective blocks. With option 1, you still have defective foundations. There must be a recognition. How can engineers sign off on a structure that still retains defective material? Everybody knows it still retains defective material. They will not get professional indemnity insurance. That is the message and we need clarity on that. We need a definition of that from the likes of Engineers Ireland.

The fundamentals of this scheme are just plain wrong. They have been wrong since we were denied pre-legislative scrutiny, which would have addressed a lot of this. This is a shameful episode in the way this was allowed to happen in the first place. How did we even get to where we are now?

What is equally shameful is the way the response has been handled. It has been bitty and piecemeal and homeowners have been made to feel like it is all our fault, we are a burden on the State and we are parasitical. This has nothing to do with what we did. We did not do anything wrong or different from anybody else but the response has been completely and utterly inadequate and shameful. People are suffering torment because of that inadequate response, and it has to stop. That is why in our statement we said we need an urgent intervention. This is grinding on year in, year out. It has to stop. These fundamentals have to be addressed and there has to be big change.

We hear the Department of housing say the six-month review is coming up. The phrase used was that "the fundamentals of the scheme will not change". That is just not good enough. A six-month review is utterly meaningless. We are pushing paper around. It is another Government PR exercise, putting something out into the public domain to make it look like it is doing something when it is actually doing nothing. It is leaving thousands of people to suffer. There is more coming down the tracks. There are loads more counties coming down the tracks. This has to stop and must be addressed. Fundamental changes are needed right now. Please do not make me come to another committee where I have to have the same conversation over and over again.

I thank Ms Hone. We are well over the time provided for this meeting. Deputies McHugh and Wynne raised the point that we have been concentrating very much on the technical and financial aspects. We probably overlooked, as it was a condensed meeting, the stress and anxiety. As Ms Hone said, the homeowners have done nothing wrong. I understand that. They have all had to become-----

There is a vulnerability as well, Chair.

They have all had to become experts on concrete standards, etc., which they never in their lives would have dreamed they would have to because they have been thrown into this. I imagine the stress of living with watching your house crumble. I have listened clearly to what the witnesses said.

Ms Hone stated this was the second or third time she has been at an Oireachtas committee. I have no doubt she will be at future Oireachtas committees because this scheme will run on and on. I appreciate the contributions on the lived experience that I cannot know. I live in County Wicklow. I am very far away from this but to hear the witnesses' lived experience is of benefit. They may feel that in coming here, it is a case of returning again and again but it is helping to make a contribution.

On what Deputy McHugh said about non-attendance of agencies, Departments and engineers, etc., as a committee, we should send them the transcript of this meeting. We should also send them the video link and ask them to watch it before they appear at the committee again. I have taken note of some of the questions raised. Others have probably taken note and asked questions as well. It would be really helpful for us as a committee - I do not want to load the witnesses with extra work - to present us with the exact questions they want to be asked of those agencies when they come in. We can read through the opening statements and I can take a note of what they said but if the witnesses were to clearly state that they want this or that question asked of whoever it might be, on whatever the issue might be, that would be helpful when we have the meeting. As a committee, we agreed this morning to reschedule that meeting with those agencies. The committee will act as quickly as we possibly can. We have a huge workload at the moment but this issue is vitally important. We will reschedule that meeting.

I thank the witnesses for their time and for travelling here to be with us. What they have said will be heard by the relevant officials, as we will put the witnesses' questions to them.

When the officials have been invited here, if the witnesses are available, can they also be invited to attend if they want to do so?

We do not have a situation where witnesses question witnesses. I do not see the value in doing that. It will be online and available to watch and they can watch us put those questions.

I take the Deputy's point, however. It would have been ideal to have the representative groups in now and the officials afterwards while it is all fresh in our minds. Our guests could have been sitting up in the Gallery watching. It did not work out that way. I am sure that is pretty disappointing for them. It is disappointing for us a members as well. We will pursue those groups and bring them into answer us.

In the context of the officials coming in, if the witnesses were here and if something came up on the day of the meeting, they could ask us to ask questions while they were present. They do not actually have to ask it themselves. That is if there was a question they wanted to ask and if they were available.

It is absolutely open to any member to invite anybody to witness the proceedings in a committee room. If members want to do that and if people were available to travel here again, I am sure it could be facilitated. That is obviously a personal matter for a member of the committee. I thank everyone very much for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.11 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 March 2024.
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