I welcome the delegation. We regret the delay. I must inform its members that we are obliged to adjourn at 1.45 p.m., which gives us approximately 15 minutes. I draw their attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Dr. Kilkelly to commence her submission.
Thornton Hall Prison Development: Discussion.
Dr. Ursula Kilkelly
Thank you, Vice Chairman. I am chairperson of the Irish Penal Reform Trust. With me is Mr. Liam Herrick, a director of the trust which is a non-governmental organisation with a commitment to reducing imprisonment, respecting the rights of everyone in the penal system and progressive reform of the penal system based on evidence-led policies. We have prepared a short document for the committee. I understand all members have received a copy. I will not, therefore, go through it in any detail, given the amount of time we have available, except to identify what we see as key issues in this debate. This is a monumental point in penal reform and policy and in the development of our criminal justice system generally. In that context, there is an urgent need for a wide-ranging debate and public consultation on all aspects of the planning and design of the new prison. Some of these issues are highlighted in our submission. We must determine the role of the prison in our penal policy and in respect of our attempts to reduce the prison population and protect the rights of all prisoners and those who work in the system. That is the probably the most important point in our document.
I will flag another few points, after which I will take questions. Key issues arise in regard to capacity and overcrowding. There is much uncertainty and a lack of public information in respect thereof. The capacity issue is not so much about numbers in that it is related directly to the possibility of an increase in the prison population. This would have very significant long-term repercussions for wider criminal justice policy, yet we have not seen any evidence to show a significant expansion of prison capacity is or will be necessary.
There is an apparent lack of broader policy on these issues, particularly regarding the use of community sanctions and the ultimate effect on the prison population. I refer also to the use of detention and the inquiry into that, which should consider the high level of detention on remand and the use of short sentences that have very little rehabilitative effect. This is a significant single issue but is related to all the questions surrounding penal policy.
While the issue of overcrowding and cell design might appear to be an operational matter, it is really the key to what prisons do and how effective they are. Overcrowding is clearly a problem in the prison system. It is particularly important to consider the extent to which it presents a substantial obstacle to effective prison management, to having safe prisons and to ensuring a constructive regime. We are anxious that there be a clear policy commitment to single occupancy of prison cells in the new prison but also, critically, that there be a discussion on and explanation of how cell design and prison design generally will conform to international standards and best practice. There needs to be a clear sense of how the prison can be designed to ensure maximum compliance with international obligations and best practice.
Other issues of concern arise regarding the new prison. These include the remote nature of the site, its size and the risk it may pose to security and the regime. We have specific concerns over the use of the prison for the detention of children, the replacement of the Dóchas centre, the use of the prison for the detention of immigrants and the collocation of the Central Mental Hospital with the prison. These issues are identified in our document and I do not propose to elaborate on them.
My final point concerns accountability in the prison system and the need for public discussion and debate. New buildings are very welcome and important given the conditions that currently obtain, particularly in Mountjoy Prison. We very much welcome them as they will improve conditions for many prisoners. However, issues concerning accountability and independent oversight will not go away with the construction of a new building; they will be more acute because the new facility will be larger than any existing one. Before any new project is undertaken, the systemic failures in the existing system need to be addressed, particularly through providing integrated sentence management, greater co-ordination between the prison service and other agencies, and ensuring accountability in the form of an independent complaints mechanism to ensure the concerns of prisoners are addressed adequately and effectively. Accountability in respect of operation and design is a key issue that needs to be addressed.
Does Mr. Herrick wish to address the committee?
Mr. Liam Herrick
Not at this stage but, if there are questions, I will be happy to reply.
I welcome the delegation from the Irish Penal Reform Trust. I apologise for not having sufficient time to engage in the debate we might otherwise have. Is the trust is in favour of the development at Thornton Hall, as the document appears to suggest it is of the view that it will go ahead? If it is not in favour of the project, will Dr. Kilkelly suggest how members should address the inadequacy of facilities and the need to relocate, particularly in Limerick, as well as Mountjoy Prison and St. Patrick's Institution, as outlined in the report from the Council of Europe, the anti-torture sub-committee, and others as far back as the Whitaker report? How do we compare as regards international practice in terms of the prison population per head of population?
I, too, regret that we have been unable to provide adequate time for an exchange of views.
On the question of overcrowding, cell design and design as it relates to prison management, I hope the delegation has seen the design of what is proposed at Thornton Hall where there will be eight separate facilities within the perimeter. Does the Irish Penal Reform Trust take issue with the configuration? If it considers that it does not incorporate best principles of penal reform, what does it suggest members should do at this stage to address the issue? As I understand it, we are essentially acting in a quasi-judicial capacity in that the Houses of the Oireachtas are the planning authority in this case. I wonder if there are specific things we can do?
I thank the Irish Penal Reform Trust for its excellent presentation and echo the remarks of Deputy Rabbitte. Last week in the Seanad the Minister stated a preferred bidder had been selected to construct the development at Thornton Hall which will have capacity for 1,400 prisoners on the new site. However, when referring to the big issue, he indicated that, in fact, it would have potential capacity for 2,200. In response to a question from me he also stated prisoners might be obliged to double up in cells. Will the delegation elaborate on what we can do as a committee about this?
I query the need for immigrant detention in the light of the provisions of the immigration Bill. Does the Irish Penal Reform Trust have any indication in respect of capacity because it seems to run contrary to the principles of immigration policy?
I welcome the delegation from the Irish Penal Reform Trust. Is the trust strongly in favour of the development at Thornton Hall in order to improve conditions for prisoners?
On the issue of co-location of the Central Mental Hospital at Thornton Hall, how does the trust respond to those who say it will be on a completely separate site from the prison?
Mr. Liam Herrick
I will attempt to answer the questions posed by Deputies Flanagan, Naughten and McGrath. My colleague will address the questions raised by Deputy Rabbitte and Senator Bacik.
On whether we are in favour of or opposed to the development at Thornton Hall, ultimately the provision of detention facilities is a matter for the Prison Service and the prerogative of the Executive. The Deputy rightly points out that conditions in Mountjoy men's prison and St. Patrick's Institution have been below acceptable human rights standards for a long period of time. The fact that the Government is now addressing that point is to be welcomed. The fact that something needs to be done about those facilities does not, necessarily, lead to the conclusion that the proposed plan for Thornton Hall is the correct way to go about it. If the intention is to provide appropriate facilities we, and other groups such as the residents of the area and groups interested in prisoners' welfare, are willing to engage constructively with the Irish Prison Service and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to reach the best possible solution.
The limited information we have so far gives rise to serious concerns on a number of grounds, such as the scale of the prison and some aspects of the design. There are many aspects about which we do not know. For example, Deputy Naughten asked about immigration facilities. All we know is that a spokesperson for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said there will be immigration facilities. We know very little beyond that. This is at a time when asylum figures are dropping dramatically. We have got by, so far, without a large-scale separate immigration facility and we do not see the need for it now.
Deputy Flanagan asked how Ireland compares internationally. Our rate of imprisonment per head of population is at about the European average at present. It is certainly lower than our neighbour, the United Kingdom. However, we do not have a long-term strategy for our penal system or for imprisonment as against alternatives to custody. That is the policy vacuum in which this major development is taking place.
The question of co-location with the Central Mental Hospital was raised. As Deputy Finian McGrath will be aware, the families of residents in the Dundrum hospital and other mental health charities are very exercised regarding the stigma which will result from the hospital being at the same site as a prison. They feel that the fact that there may be separate entrance roads does not address that problem. There are also clinical problems associated with the dangers of losing staff and expertise in the transfer of the site. However, that is a matter primarily for the hospital.
Dr. Ursula Kilkelly
Deputy Rabbitte referred to the design, what the joint committee can do in response to what we know already and what change can be effected. We have not seen the design. To my knowledge, nothing is available. It is suggested that particular features of the design may or may not be compliant with international standards. We are concerned that there should be a process of ensuring that the design of the prison takes international obligations and standards into account. I am thinking, in particular, of the European prison rules, the guidance of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, CPT, and a range of treaties to which Ireland is a party and which have a significant amount to say about how prisons should be organised and how recommendations can be adhered to within a large and small facility. Some degree of audit that would measure the compliance of the facility's design with international standards is required. This is a regular form of assessment which is undertaken in other countries with projects of this kind. One should be able to identify from the guidance what needs to be taken into account and explain how the facility meets those standards.
The use of small units to accommodate eight prisoners at a time has been suggested. That does not relate to the issue of scale but it does not get away from the substantial size of a prison to accommodate, potentially, 2,000 prisoners. Experience has been that the size of accommodation units, while not quite irrelevant, has a strong bearing on the operation of the facility, particularly where common areas are used by all prisoners. The extent to which units are completely self-contained will have a bearing. The common areas, medical facilities, exercise yards, recreational and education and training facilities would still have to be of the scale necessary to accommodate up to and perhaps more than 2,000 prisoners. The organisation of the accommodation does not get away from that fact.
I thank Dr. Kilkelly. I regret that I must curtail further discussion as this stage. I thank the delegation for attending at such short notice and for its presentation and responses which I am sure will be of assistance to members of the committee in their deliberations.
Before we conclude, I should have stated the obvious at the beginning. I wish to declare an interest in that I am one of the residents living alongside the prison. I would like the Minister to reflect that point which, under the Standards in Public Office Act, must be done
I thank the other deputations which have attended at such short notice. Owing to circumstances beyond our control we were unable to accommodate them between 1 p.m. and 1.45 p.m. Another meeting is due to commence at 2 p.m. We will discuss the situation at that meeting and hope to be able to accommodate them this afternoon. I hope they will be able to stay around. We will be in communication with them as soon as we can after the commencement of the meeting at 2 p.m.
Thank you, Vice Chairman. I do not know whether we have had any communication from the Government Whip but, as we discussed at some length in private session, this arrangement is unsatisfactory. I hope there will be an indication from the Government Whip that we will be able to facilitate the other groups during the afternoon.