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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jul 2011

Greater Dublin Area Draft Transport Strategy 2011-2030: Discussion

The committee agreed at its last meeting to request the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, for an extension until early September 2011 for submission of recommendations on the greater Dublin area draft transport strategy. Any views presented at today's meeting will be collated and a submission drafted for agreement by the committee at its first meeting in September 2011. The Minister has agreed to such an extension until 30 September 2011.

I welcome Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive officer and director of transport planning and investment; Ms Anne Graham, director public transport services and Mr. Jeremy Ryan, transport strategy project manager, National Transport Authority.

I draw their attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Mr. Creegan to address the committee and thank him for his opening statement.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today to discuss the authority's draft transport strategy 2011-2030. The requirement to prepare a transport strategy for the Dublin region - the area covered by the four Dublin local authorities plus Meath, Kildare and Wicklow - is set out in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008. The transport strategy is intended to provide a strategic framework for transport provision in the greater Dublin area over a long-term period - in the case of this first strategy, the period is up to 2030.

Before proceeding further, it is worth noting that while the legislation requires the preparation of a long-term planning framework - the transport strategy - it also requires the preparation of shorter-term implementation plans, at six year intervals. Those implementation plans will set out the details of the infrastructure investment proposals, service plans and other intended actions proposed for the six-year period of the implementation plan. The two legislative documents are, therefore, intended to complement and support each other, with the transport strategy setting out the long-term framework for transport provision and the shorter-term implementation plans providing the specific delivery details for each six-year period.

The draft transport strategy is not an amalgam of disparate individual projects, bolted together in an ad hoc manner. Instead, the draft transport strategy is the culmination of substantial evidence based analysis and planning work. At its core is a detailed assessment of transport patterns throughout the region, utilising extensive information on population, employment and travel statistics. The analysis of various options and scenarios was undertaken using the authority’s multi-modal, strategic transport model. That model covers the entire region, includes all modes of surface travel and uses the most up-to-date and state of the art modelling techniques and methods. The overall process was informed by a number of stages of public consultation, leading to the document which has been forwarded to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport for his determination, in tandem with its provision to the committee.

The document addresses and sets out the proposed approach to transport provision under several key headings: walking/cycling; public transport, covering bus, light rail, heavy rail, taxi and community transport; roads; freight; and demand management. However, transport planning can only be successful if it is integrated with land use planning. Accordingly, the most important element is, arguably, the chapter titled "Planning for Sustainable Living". Here the need to integrate transport and land use planning is emphasised; in particular, it sets out the need to focus trip intensive development into the key designated growth centres and areas well served by public transport. In doing so, it supports the approach and objectives of the Regional Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin Area, put in place by the Dublin Regional Authority and the Mid-East Regional Authority. Ultimately, the test of both this transport strategy and the regional planning guidelines will be measured, to a significant degree, by our success in achieving that land use objective.

Overall there are 84 separate measures, many with individual sub-measures, set out in the draft transport strategy. The document recognises and acknowledges the current prevailing economic circumstances. While some of the proposed measures relate to high-cost infrastructure delivery, such as light rail and heavy rail projects, most measures require much more limited investment, if any, to achieve their objective. It is not intended that all of the measures would be implemented in the immediate future; instead, the delivery is intended to be phased over the full period of the strategy.

Overall the draft transport strategy represents an important policy document, providing a framework for the provision of transport in the greater Dublin area over the next 20 years.

I now call on the members of the committee who have indicated, Deputies Nash, Ellis, Seán Kenny and Catherine Murphy. If the questioners keep their questions short, we will go back and forth rather than bunching everybody together.

The Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 only refers to Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. I represent the constituency of Louth and I have a particular concern that the legislation does not provide for the inclusion of Louth or, more importantly, the part of Louth that is most densely populated, that is, the Drogheda and south Louth area that is contiguous to the east Meath urban area, which is, essentially, the suburbs of Drogheda. I note that a submission was made by Meath County Council, which it is necessarily obliged to do, on the framework in front of us this afternoon. However, the majority of people in the east Meath area use train services located in Drogheda. There are plans for an additional train service in Drogheda, which is the sixth largest contiguous urban area in the country. While the authority states that the modelling for transport provision in the formal greater Dublin area will include the Drogheda and Louth area, that is insufficient.

I respect, understand and appreciate that the enabling legislation governing this area is the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 and that is a matter for the Government and the Oireachtas to decide. That legislation should be amended to reflect a reality. I refer to an area which is one of the most densely populated in the country and which is under considerable strain in terms of commuter traffic. Generally speaking, it has an excellent public transport service, by bus, on the M1. The rail services are excellent but there is room for improvement.

I would appreciate the observations of the representatives of the Dublin Transport Authority this afternoon in that regard. It is impractical that the area is not included. It is quite nebulous. It is nonsensical. I would like to see it changed from a practical point of view that reflects the reality.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Deputy Nash largely answered the question in that the legislation states clearly what the authority covers and does not cover. It is not within our remit to include Louth in the greater Dublin area. It is within other parties' control to have an amendment made to the legislation if that is desired.

On the other hand, we are conscious of the movements coming in from Louth in terms of our planning. We are also conscious that Drogheda straddles the border between Meath and Louth and is itself a big entity.

What we have done is made as much allowance we are capable of doing in what we have produced here. We are aware of the movements, up and down. We are aware of the need for improved rail services, possibly over a longer time. We are aware of the need for bus changes over time as well. However, our statutory remit, in terms of land use planning and a strategy such as this, does not extend there at present.

I thank Mr. Creegan for coming here and for his presentation. Serving the north side of Dublin is one of the big issues for me. We have been talking about the main projects, whether metro north, DART underground or Luas BX. Leaving aside the financial implications, the one that stands out most in terms of delivering across the city, and to complement the whole city, is metro north. We may be precluded from pursuing that as a result of funding. I do not know the current estimate in that regard. Originally, we looked at public private partnerships but, from what I can gather, that seems to have gone down the drain. In the past there was an estimate of €3 billion and now some say it would be closer to €2 billion.

If possible, I would like an opinion on which project would give the most benefit. Metro north would provide 5,000 jobs in construction and ancillary services and would take large numbers of vehicles off the roads across the city. It would give us a link from north to south, and out to the airport. It would serve areas such as Drumcondra, Ballymun, Northwood - there is even Ikea - the airport and Swords. The effect that would have on the ancillary routes would be significant in terms of employment and otherwise.

How does the authority weigh matters up? Often we have heard about the link-up with the different Luas lines. Would that project provide more benefits? I am always trying to get my head around the question of which would provide the most benefit. I have probably attended more meetings about metro north than I have about anything else. The project has cost approximately €150 million to date despite the fact that nothing has been delivered. What are our guests' opinions in this regard?

Taxis are a factor in the transport issue. Of concern is that we have a public system that virtually closes down at night time, meaning we tend to rely on taxis, particularly at weekends. Nor is there a Nitelink on some nights. It is appalling that a major city, let alone a capital city, does not have proper services. What are our guests' opinions in this regard? Dublin Bus is enduring cutbacks, but our capital city should be able to provide a service without relying on taxis. It is a pity that our strategy seems to depend on how many people are employed in the taxi sector.

Are we getting the best use out of cycle and bus lanes? It is often the case that bus lanes beside queues of cars are empty. We need to re-examine this issue. Will our guests comment on these questions?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We recognise the importance of the north side of Dublin and the need for transport to service it. Besides metro north, a number of the strategy's projects would benefit the north side. For example, the DART underground could provide significantly improved services as far as Balbriggan. Other proposals include the enhancement of bus corridors, improved bus services and so on. Our strategy cites metro north as a vital project for the north side. As the Deputy stated, it serves an entire corridor as opposed to a single point. Which project gets built is a matter for the Government in its capital spending review. It has many considerations and funding will be the key determinant. Like everyone else, we must wait and see.

I take it that the subtext of the question on the Nitelink was to ask whether services could be expanded from the Christmas period to either of the other periods. As we are struggling to make bus services operate on a lower subsidy basis, extending a service would be difficult. This does not need to be the situation forever, but thinking in an expansionary mode is difficult at a time when the Exchequer must reduce its level of subsidies for services.

The Deputy would agree that more could be done to improve the way bus and cycle lanes are being operated. For example, there could be fewer bus lanes with more end-to-end priority for buses on those lanes. Many cycle routes are not at the desired standard. Compared with other projects, this is the type of issue in respect of which many improvements could be made via low-cost measures.

I was involved in the Dublin Transportation Initiative, DTI, and the Dublin Transportation Office, DTO, through various panels. At the time, I was jumping up and down about the need to link land use and transportation planning. All of the modelling might as well not have been done, as the result was a dispersed pattern of development. What we need to do now is retrofit, that is, match a public transport system with a dispersed population, but this will be difficult.

The interconnector is the No. 1 project that is necessary. If we do not connect our rail, Luas and DART lines, there is little point in adding to them. The interconnector would give a general return for the greater Dublin area.

The documentation refers to development consolidation. To some extent, people have voted with their feet. Some of it has to do with not having sufficiently strict land usage policies, for example, the transportation strategy, and the cost associated with delivering them. Families do not want to live in apartments. If consolidation is under consideration, mixed-type developments that accommodate families must be considered. We must go back to the drawing board.

A number of towns have been designated under the regional planning guidelines, with which I am familiar, but it does not make much sense that Bray is the only one on Dublin's fringe that has been included within the so-called inner circle of the metropolitan boundary. In north County Kildare, a population of 50,000 people in three towns is well served by public transport services in which a great deal of investment has been made, for example, the four tracks of the Kildare line and the proposal for the electrification of the Maynooth line. It does not seem sensible to exclude Kildare as a component. The same would be the case with parts of County Meath, for example, Ashbourne, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne where the train and road infrastructure has been developed in recent years. The guidelines do not match up.

Permeability for walking always features for strategies in, for example, housing estates. However, there are proposals to close such walkways because of their design. Design across the greater Dublin area must be better informed so that problems stemming from design flaws can be overcome.

Regarding local transport plans and the preparation of streetscapes, I know the pressure under which Kildare County Council finds itself because of the recruitment moratorium and so on. Additional workloads are being designated for the council, but has it been asked whether it is capable of delivering on them? The plans merit inclusion, but there is little point in including them if they cannot be delivered.

Mention was made of cycling in public parks. Some local authorities, such as Fingal and South Dublin county councils, have by-laws to preclude cycling. The management of parks must be factored into cycling policies. The councils probably have the by-laws for a reason, but people complain about them. Sometimes, the local authority system can create difficult situations. For example, a section of the Grand Canal has been developed so that one can cycle almost the entire way to the city centre, yet there is a gap of a few hundred metres because it happens to be in a different local authority area. It does not make sense to prevent people from cycling a decent distance. The local authority system is causing problems in this respect.

A major difficulty for delivering a bus-based system will be the level of subvention. Speakers mentioned bus services joining smaller towns together. If one asked bus companies to put a bus-----

I ask the Deputy to conclude.

I will wrap up now.

I can invite her back in for more questions later in the meeting. I am trying to allow everybody to come in at this stage.

I will finish up for now on this point. I will come back to make another couple of points at a later stage. There is no bus service between Celbridge and Leixlip, for example, even though there are large employers in both towns. If one asks the public service operators to provide such services, they will say it would cost them too much money to do so. It merits its inclusion in the plan, but can it be delivered from the point of view of the level of subvention that will be available? I will come back in to make a few more points later in the meeting.

The Deputy is asking so many questions that they are starting to lose their value. I will invite her in again, but she should not keep going on.

Can I make a suggestion? The questions I intend to ask are very similar. If I ask them now, perhaps they can be answered together. That would speed up the meeting.

Certainly.

I welcome Mr. Creegan, Mr. Ryan and Ms Graham to this meeting. Ms Graham used to work for Dublin City Council. I think the last time I met her was at the opening of the Dublin Port tunnel. Obviously, she has moved on since then.

I agree with what Mr. Creegan said about the importance of integrating transport planning and land use. We had some glorious failures in that area during the property boom. A couple of them come to mind. A railway station was built in the west of the city, but the developer did not complete the necessary access road to the nearby estates. I understand the Government is having to provide money for its construction. It will not be ready until the end of this year. That was a glaring failure of land use and transport planning to come into sync. A new railway station that was built in Clongriffin, which is in my constituency, is being well used. It would have the potential to be of greater use if it were better connected to the local estates. If one lives in certain estates in Belmayne, one has to go around in a circle to get to Clongriffin railway station. Many people do not bother. As a result of the lack of connectivity, they vote with their feet by using a different form of transport to get to the city. That will have to be addressed in future plans.

I understand the National Transport Authority can make an input into city and county development plans. It was suggested at one stage that it should have a kind of final say, but I do not think it was ultimately agreed. The authority has a strong input when development plans are being made. These things have to be copperfastened in that framework. They certainly have not worked in the past.

The increase in the number of people cycling in Dublin has been one of the great successes of recent years. The demand for the bicycle rental scheme was in excess of the amount of bicycles originally provided. I welcome the decision to build more bicycle stations throughout the city. The need for more cycle lanes and ways arises in that context. We need to ensure people can cycle around the city more safely. That is very important. Parts of the famous cycle way between Sutton and Sandycove - it was ultimately planned to have a cycle way between Portmarnock and Sandycove - have been completed but the coastal route as a whole remains unfinished. How does the authority consider that should be addressed in the overall context of providing and improving cycling in the city and in the Dublin region as a whole?

The rest of my questions relate to rail services. Although I agree with what Deputy Ellis said about metro north, I suggest that other parts of the transport infrastructure jigsaw need to be addressed. The construction of a railway spur between Clongriffin and the airport has been proposed. I understand it would cost approximately €200 million.

It would cost €400 million.

The figure of €400 million was mentioned originally. As a result of falling land prices and more competitive tendering, however, the latest quote is €200 million. That does not appear in the National Transport Authority's plans because it is a recent development. I would like to hear the authority's assessment or evaluation of that.

I agree wholeheartedly with the proposal to develop an underground DART line. Much better use could be made of existing rail infrastructure if certain lines were joined. The interconnector would facilitate that. It would mean that people could travel from Kildare to Dublin Airport or Dundalk without having to change to another transport mode. That is very important. It was crazy to build two Luas lines without joining them up. I do not think we need to go back to that kind of situation. We need to get them joined up. I would like to hear Mr. Creegan's comments on those issues.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Deputies Catherine Murphy and Seán Kenny have asked many questions. Deputy Murphy's comment about dispersed settlement patterns is absolutely valid. We are catching up and paying for the sins of those who engaged in poor planning over many years. It is difficult to provide for a comprehensive public transport system, which satisfies everybody, when one is dealing with dispersed settlement patterns. When development is concentrated in key areas, it is easy to provide public transport. Nevertheless, we have what we have. Everybody has to work with it. We hope there will be a gradual move towards a more focused and better integrated system of land use and transport planning over time. That will facilitate development in key areas.

Deputy Murphy rightly pointed out that a number of key centres were designated in the strategy and in the regional planning guidelines. It has been proposed that in addition to those key areas, we should focus on areas of person-intensive development where there is a great deal of movement along heavy and light rail lines. I think that is the measure the Deputy was suggesting. The lines that are in place need to be used because they constitute an ideal vehicle for moving people around. That is where we think a great deal of development will occur in the next two decades.

I was also asked about types of development. We understand the issues relating to the Irish approach to patterns of development. There is a reluctance to pursue certain apartment-type development processes. We are not prescribing what the development needs to be. We do not have the skills to be so prescriptive. We are simply saying there is a need for more focused development. We hope that solutions which work in Ireland will evolve through good design and planning.

Problems with permeability and connections to housing estates are evident to everybody. Many access routes into estates have been closed over the years due to anti-social behaviour. As a result, it can be difficult to access transport services in some locations. We are working with some local authorities to open access to certain estates. It is a difficult process. As members deal with these issues every day, they are familiar with the reasons people are opposed to the opening of access. Local authorities have succeeded in opening new routes into estates in some locations. That allows people to access footpaths, bus routes and cycle ways in a much more amenable manner. We hope to capture more of those matters at the planning stage, rather than having to catch up at a later stage.

Deputy Murphy asked whether local authorities can deliver on local transport plans. This strategy has been through the local authority process. All of the local authorities have been consulted on it and have commented on it. The National Transport Authority is liaising tightly with local authorities to fund projects all over the place. We are assisting them with certain things. We are confident that the local authorities will be able to accommodate the type of work that has been suggested here. If they need assistance from us, we will provide it. Some of them are already getting such assistance.

I am aware of the existence of by-laws preventing cycling in parks. Issues can be resolved on a project-by-project basis. If there is a good reason for cycling to be banned in a park at certain times, the by-law will remain in place. If there is no good reason for it, perhaps it can be considered by the local authority concerned.

We recognise that there are gaps in cycle routes across the greater Dublin region. This problem can be attributed to the county system. That is the kind of thing we need to cure if we are to add value as the transport authority covering the region. We are talking to all seven local authorities about their cycling networks and how they integrate across their boundaries. We are a pretty embryonic organisation, but we are making sure we pick up all of these problems over time and prevent them from recurring in the future. The role of a central authority like the National Transport Authority is to co-ordinate in such a manner.

Deputy Kenny referred to the railway station in Hansfield as an example of poor integration between the timing of a development and the timing of the provision of a railway station. That has been recognised and is being cured at the moment. We hope the station will open next year.

The National Transport Authority makes a significant input into development plans and local area plans. We would prefer to liaise with local authorities before plans are formally developed. It would be better if the ideas we would like to bring to the table were included in local authority plans before the formal consultation stage. That is the approach we are taking.

On cycle ways around the city and the Sandycove to Sutton route, we are conscious that there are gaps in several places, particularly in Clontarf. We are examining the issue to determine whether there is a solution we can afford. A solution was developed by the city council a couple of years ago which was expensive and it is a question of determining whether that is the only solution or whether something else is available. It is something we hope to tackle and conclude, provided we get funding, over the next two years. We hope to fill in the gaps in the network.

On the rail spur from Clongriffin to the airport, the strategy considers metro north providing connectivity to Dublin airport. If it is in place, that rail connection over the northern line would not seem to be necessary. It is something Irish Rail is considering and has provided for as a possibility under the strategy. The metro north project was intended to provide the connections along the corridor.

I hope I have addressed all the questions.

The basic foundation of any transport authority or a strategy is underpinned by reliability and confidence. The service must be reliable and the public must have confidence in it. Usage develops out of that. I am not sure what the transport authority model has as its head. Does it have a European, North American, Australian or Asian influence?

If one went to Paris in the morning, one would find a Metro map in a railway station or download it as an application on one's phone. It is an integrated public transport system that operates with the bus network, the underground Metro network and the RER service which is similar to the DART network in Dublin and operates on a regional basis to places similar to Kildare. If one is working in the city one can buy a card on a monthly basis and tourists can buy one for €10 or €15. One has access to all public transport.

I recently travelled from the Red Cow roundabout to Leinster House. The 145 bus was parked at Heuston station as I passed it on the Luas and I decided to get off it and take the bus, and had to pay another €1.60. The ideal scenario should be that I can park at a park and ride facility at the Red Cow roundabout, get on the Luas, get off at Heuston station and move on to Leinster House or wherever.

As there is no integrated ticketing system the advantage of bringing people to Heuston station is lost. Custom and business is being lost because its use as a depot rather than a train and bus destination is not being maximised due to cost.

I understand an underground line between Heuston and Connolly stations was used by the Guinness company. The track is in place and it may be cheaper to restore it to connect the two stations. I have travelled between Heuston and Connolly Station and there is a track connecting the two. I do not know why it has not been developed further or is not in use.

On the current ticketing system used in preparation for the smart card, I understand that if one loses the card for instance in December it costs €10 to replace it, but one loses it February it costs €100 to replace it because there is a €10 charge per month to replace that card. That does not make sense. The process of replacing a card is €10, whether it is lost in February or December. A top up charge €10 per month to replace a card would not encourage people to avail of the card. One should be able to have the facilities of the card sent to one's phone or be sent a code, just as one would do if one lost one's phone and received a replacement SIM card for free. The cards should be barcoded and reissued. If there is an administration fee for reissuing, it should be a once off fee rather than applicable on a monthly basis.

I agree with other members that the bicycle service in Dublin has been a huge success. What strategies or developments does the delegation think will be put in place to enhance its success? Dublin is not the safest city to cycle around, particularly St. Stephen's Green which is not even a safe place to drive around in a car. Anybody, particularly those not from Dublin, who has driven around St. Stephen's Green knows the inter-cutting of lanes between buses, cars and taxis is complex. There is a college nearby which should mean a high level of bicycle use. Is there a plan to make bicycle usage in the area safer? Will cycle lanes be developed in the city centre as a result of the success of the bicycle plan?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I will share some of the answers with my colleague, Ms Anne Graham. We would love to have the Paris transport system here.

We all would.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We recognise the need to get better at integrating many things and that is currently happening. We are a relatively embryonic organisation and have been in existence for 18 months. Things are happening in regard to integrated ticketing and Ms Graham will discuss the possibility of integrated fares.

On the underground tunnel between Heuston and Connolly stations, we inspected it recently. For a number of reasons it cannot replace DART underground as a project which is one argument that is put forward regularly. It has the ability to connect the two stations but it is very difficult to use Heuston station. One can only access the tunnel through a remote platform 1 km from the station. If the train was to use the main station it would have to reverse a mile down the track and enter the tunnel. It would create a time penalty and hold up all the other trains.

There are restrictions in the lines into Connolly station. The tunnel has been considered because it is a piece of infrastructure that is in good condition and available. Its ability to be used for running passenger services on peak daytime hours is extremely limited. If it was possible to do, it would be happening. It is simply not possible. I know it is used occasionally at weekends for matches and things like that. Limited additional passenger use can be made of it.

On the strategies for enhancing the bicycle scheme, creating safer cycling routes and developing the scheme, we and Dublin City Council are considering expanding the bicycle scheme. It is a question of what is possible, in terms of money. More importantly, because it benefits everybody and not just people using Dublin bicycles, we will invest more in cycle routes around the city to make them safer.

We recently published a cycle design manual called the national cycle manual. It tries to lift cycling routes to a different level from what they currently are. It is currently not a high-quality offering in many places throughout the city centre. If we want people to use that mode of travel we have to remedy the situation. I will ask Ms Graham to discuss integrated ticketing and fares.

Ms Anne Graham

With regard to the general integration of the transport system, we obviously had great ambitions to try to make it a system like that in Paris and integrate different modes, including rail, Luas and bus services. One method of doing that is on the information side, by having the type of information to which the Chairman referred, such as maps and timetables, available on an integrated website which we are currently developing. We will then develop an integrated map of transport in Dublin. In terms of ticketing, the committee probably does not realise that the facility to move from train to bus exists, particularly at Heuston Station. Not many people know that when one buys a rail ticket, one can also get a ticket that allows one to hop on a bus or a Luas.

I will have to get my €1.60 back.

Ms Anne Graham

Public transport users probably do not have that kind of information. The e-purse we hope to launch shortly will help customers with integrated ticketing because it will allow them to move from one mode to another. The next level - integrated fares - will allow them to transfer from one mode to another without a huge financial penalty. It is obvious that the current economic circumstances mean we have to be careful when we introduce a reduced fare on another mode or service. Such a fare may affect the overall income of the company in question. We are examining the matter carefully. It is our ambition to have an integrated fare system, as well as the integrated ticketing system.

I apologise for my unavailability at the beginning of the meeting. I was attending a meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. I read the authority's presentation and I am familiar with its work. I recognise the importance of its efforts to develop a long-term strategy for the development of the city. The presentation referred to the need to consider land use as a guiding principle in the development of the strategy. Has the authority revisited its four-year implementation plan in light of the changed economic circumstances? If so, has it suggested that the plan be changed in that context?

I wish to ask about the major projects that are regularly mentioned from a Government perspective. Do the witnesses have any particular thoughts on the key transport projects in this city, in light of the current constraints? Which of them would offer the best value for money if funding were to be provided to develop them? Would it be possible for the authority to prioritise the key projects that have been identified? I recognise that some of these questions may have been asked when I was at the other meeting. If they were, I apologise.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The implementation plan really sets out the nuts and bolts of what exactly is going to happen. That is for a six-year period. That follows the strategy. In fact, we do not have an implementation plan yet. We will find it difficult to compile such a plan before the Government's review of capital spending is completed in the autumn. We envisage that when the Government's new plan for capital investment has been produced and adopted, it will make it much easier for us to decide what will be the implementation plan. The implementation plan hangs around funding, in effect. The level of funding that is available will dictate what is possible over the six-year period. We have recognised and stated clearly that much of the strategy may have to be back-ended. It is a fact of life in Ireland that some of the ambitions that existed a number of years ago - for example, to pursue many projects in a short period of time - are no longer realistic. We think it is okay that it will take much longer to deliver what is set out in the strategy. As it is a 20-year plan, it does not have to be done tomorrow or in the first six years. It will have to be done in the long term, however, if the whole region is to work in transport terms. I was asked about the particular projects that represent the best value for money. All of the projects that will proceed will have to deliver value for money. If they cannot deliver value for money, they should not be going forward. It is a matter for the Government to make decisions on the exact projects that will be pursued, in the context of the money that is available.

It is a chicken and egg situation. The authority is clearly participating in that. It is the piggy in the middle, to some extent. The issue for the Government is the amount of money available to it. If €150 million or €200 million is available, the Government can decide to pursue particular projects. What level of dialogue or discussion is taking place between the authority and the Government? The authority has developed a strategy and will develop an implementation plan. It seems the Government will be able to pick projects from within the authority's overall strategy and that will become the authority's implementation plan. Therefore, the authority will not be in a position to make known its thoughts and views on prioritisation. I would have thought it would be important for projects to be prioritised clearly. If €100 million, €150 million or €200 million is available to the Government - it will depend on where the Exchequer is at - it should be spent on the basis of the authority's priorities. It should not be left to the Government or the Minister to pick a key project, which might or might not be in sync with the authority's key priorities. In my view, the authority is in the best position to identify the most appropriate project to pursue, on the basis of the money that is available. That might be a convoluted way of putting it.

I would like to make three further points. The authority has indicated in its document - I cannot find the precise quotation - that it thinks the potential for industrial growth is predominantly in the city centre. That has not been the pattern to date. Companies often select locations on the basis of ensuring people do not have to face traffic flows at peak times. That is one of the criteria. Why does the authority have the impression that most future industrial development will occur in the city centre? Is it even a desirable thing? It would create certain travel demands. Is it not better to have a dispersed pattern in that regard?

When the authority talks about road pricing, is it talking about something that happens after decent public transport provision has been made? Does it happen within the city limits or does it go further out?

The National Transport Authority has a limited focus. Its remit in the greater Dublin area is limited to seven local authority areas. I do not know who decided to prioritise a number of projects in my area. The authority is being given national funding and setting priorities. There does not seem to be a democratic input into some of the projects. Who is deciding the priorities? A project under the national cycling manual is being pursued in Maynooth. To be perfectly honest, if I were to pick a place to put it, I would not put it where it is being put. I have said that on numerous occasions in the past. Even though a bus lane was included in the project, the first thing that happened was that the bus service was terminated. We now have a lovely bus lane with no buses. Who is deciding on these priorities? It does not seem that a sensible priority was chosen in this case. The project in question is already under way, perhaps with borrowed money. It strikes me that there is a deficiency in the National Transport Authority's process of choosing priorities. I can see the value in having an overarching organisation that goes above the various local authorities and deals with some of the failures I have mentioned. Others should be able to make a meaningful input as well.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I will begin by responding to Deputy Dooley. There has been a substantial engagement between the National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport. We have worked in conjunction with the Department to examine various scenarios. We have considered what would happen if certain amounts of money were available. The Department is aware of the various permutations and their implications. We are confident that the right result will emerge from that process.

Deputy Catherine Murphy concluded by asking about the prioritisation of projects. We have a strong dialogue going on with Kildare County Council and we are not necessarily picking the projects. We are looking for them to propose the things they believe are worth doing. We have had to disagree on occasion with some of them, because we did not see the value in them, and curtail other projects for the same reason. It is not at the stage yet where they have a portfolio of projects and we are able to prioritise them. There is a relatively limited number of projects and we try to support them whenever we can. I know about the Maynooth project and I agree with some of the Deputy's comments. There are some issues for which, in hindsight, a better approach or design would have been more appropriate. It is a collaboration between us and the council but the projects are being proposed by the council. Perhaps if there is a democratic input-----

That is not what we have been told.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Is it not? That is the reality. While we have not been able to fund everything they want, we have been able to fund most projects in the current year.

We mentioned road pricing in the strategy because it is required if the Smarter Travel objectives are to be delivered. Smarter Travel sets very ambitious targets for the region. It is Government policy and if this is to be achieved, all of the infrastructure we have put in place in the strategy and all of the services will not get us to the targets set out in Smarter Travel. Therefore, the strategy is only alerting us to the fact that if the target is to be met, it will need some form of road user charging. The question is whether the target will be met. That is as far as the thinking has gone on this at the moment.

What about the industrial approach?

Mr. Jeremy Ryan

"Industrial" may not be the correct term. We want to see office-based employment in the city centre. We accept that factories and so on typically will not be in the city centre. We are looking for office-based employment, where people do not need a car and there are not necessarily any major deliveries of goods coming from the site. We see the city centre as being a desirable location for such development, because it is at the centre of the public transport network. One can get to the city centre from anywhere in the Dublin area via bus, rail, Luas or whatever. If that type of development is dispersed into outer areas, one may be lucky to get one connection, while there are none in many cases. The chances of people using public transport to get to those destinations are much lower, and from the point of view of sustainable development and meeting the Smarter Travel targets, it is important that these office type developments take place in the city centre and in other major town centres.

I still do not know where my tenner went-----

Ms Anne Graham

I did not answer that.

-----and that compound on €10. I still do not understand the maths behind that.

Ms Anne Graham

I do not understand that myself, so I will follow it up because as far as I know, it is only €10 for your card. I will get some more information for you on that.

For the new smart card system, it is only €10. For the previous existing system, there was a compound difficulty. I still do not understand the rationale, but I would be delighted if you could send a communique after this meeting.

I will conclude today's meeting by thanking the witnesses for assisting us in our deliberations today. I take this opportunity to wish everybody an enjoyable and relaxing summer. We have had more than 12 meetings since we started about a month ago. I would like particularly to thank the secretariat for providing the assistance, Nuala, Leona, Colm, Catriona, Sinéad and Colm, who do much work behind the scenes to get these meetings up and running. They have been working flat out for the past month. I hope to see you all in September. I will not call you back the first week; I will give you a bit of grace.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. sine die.
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