Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Mar 1944

Vol. 28 No. 13

Military Service Pensions (Amendment) Bill, 1944 ( Certified Money Bill ) —Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to resolve a doubt which has been cast on my Department's interpretation of Section 8, sub-section (1) of the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924, and Section 20, sub-section (1) of the Military Service Pensions Act, 1934. These sub-sections provide that, where a pensioner is in receipt of any remuneration or allowance payable out of public funds, his military service pension will be abated in accordance with a scale set out in schedules to the Acts.

Pensions granted under the Act of 1924 were, except in the case of serving members of the Forces, payable as from the 1st October, 1924, or from 1st October, 1934, if application was made after the passing of the 1934 Act, and pensions under the 1934 Act commence as from the 1st October, 1934. Senators will appreciate, however, that all pensions cannot be granted simultaneously. Investigations must be made into each case and these investigations take varying times to complete, with the result that pensions are granted on different dates. Once granted, however, arrears were and are payable in every case from the dates which I have mentioned—1st October, 1924, in the case of the 1924 Act and 1st October, 1934, in the case of the Act of 1934, and in the case of applications under the 1924 Act made after the passing of the 1934 Act.

In case there may be any misunderstanding, I think it well to emphasise that the present Bill has nothing to do with the general principle of the abatement of pensions in respect of other receipts from public funds. That principle was established in the 1924 and 1934 Acts by both Houses of the Oireachtas and does not arise now. The Bill is necessary because of the difference which I mentioned between the date of award of a pension and the date from which payment commences. The specific question which gives rise to it is, whether the abatement of pensions of public servants should begin from the date of commencement or from the date of award of the pension.

The invariable practice of my Department for close on 20 years, in fact since military service pensions were first paid, has been to abate the pension not from the date on which it was granted but from the date on which it commenced. For instance, if a person receives a pension in 1944, dating back to 1934 and carrying arrears as from 1934, then the pension is abated over the ten years according to the amount he received each year from public funds. That seems the obvious intention of the sections, as well as being the only interpretation that could be justified, for, otherwise, it would mean that all such pensioners were not treated alike, despite the fact that their pensions became effective as from the same date.

This interpretation of the sections remained unquestioned for almost 20 years but, recently, it has been stated that the pension should be abated, not from the date of its commencement, but from the date on which it was granted. This claim has been put forward by a few persons and, on its being rejected, they have threatened legal proceedings. No case has been tested in the courts but I am advised that, though the new interpretation is questionable, it might be accepted by the courts. As it is felt, however, that the Oireachtas never intended any such inequitable interpretation, the present Bill has been introduced to remove all doubts on the subject.

An illustration may, at this point, bring out the difference between what is now being asserted and what has been the practice. Suppose, for instance, that two persons—A and B —each in receipt of £600 a year salary from public funds, applied on the same date and were each awarded a pension of £200 a year under the 1934 Act, but that A was granted his pension in 1934, while B, through delays of one kind or another, did not receive his award until 1944. The newly-suggested interpretation contends that A's pension is rightly abated each year from 1934, but that B's should be similarly abated only from 1944. Thus B would be better off than A for pension purposes to the extent of about £2,000—that is, he would be entitled to ten years' pension without abatement simply because it had not been possible to deal with his case as expeditiously as with that of A. The Departmental view and practice are, however, that both persons for pension purposes are similarly circumstanced and that both pensions fall to be abated over the whole period.

I feel that it was never the intention of the Oireachtas to make any such discrimination as that now suggested between pensioners in receipt of remuneration out of public funds, but that the clear and equitable intention was to treat them alike. Accordingly, the purpose of the present Bill is to remove any legal doubt which may exist regarding the interpretation of the sections and to confirm what must undoubtedly have been the intention of the Oireachtas and what has always been the practice.

Have any legal proceedings been initiated in this matter up to the present?

No, not so far—only threatened.

But I presume that people have got legal opinions. I am not against the Bill. I am merely speaking from the point of view of persons who may have already incurred expenses in this matter.

There have been a number of approaches in regard to this matter. Legal opinion has been sought and it has been more or less divided. We have been advised that the interpretation which has been given to the Acts is the correct interpretation and will stand the test of law, and then again we have been advised that it might, in fact, go against us.

I had in mind the position of persons who, in endeavouring to upset the present interpretation given by the Minister and by his predecessors, may have incurred certain expenses. Was any claim made?

Not that I am aware of.

The object of this Bill, I take it, is to give an interpretation to cover a possible gap in the law.

I think that the Seanad might ask the Minister if there were cases of persons who considered they had a claim under the law as it stands and who incurred expenses in order to test that claim. In passing legislation to block up that gap in the law, I think we would like to hear from the Minister whether, as a matter of ex gratia payment, he would be prepared to pay any expenses which might be incurred on the part of pensioners in testing the law.

I am informed that no civil bill has been served and outside of that I do not think it would be possible to meet the suggestion which the Senator is making because we can easily understand that there would be all sorts of exorbitant claims. If there have been any cases brought to a stage where a civil bill is served we might consider that.

Tá a fhios agam nach féidir linn athrú a dhéanamh ar an mBille seo. Tá daoine sa tír fá láthair a bhí páirteach sa troid ar son na tíre agus sílim nach bhfuil siad ag fáil cothrom na féinne mar atá siad agus ba mhaith liom dá bhféadadh an tAire rud a dhéanamh ar mhaithe leis na daoine sin.

I think we all here agree with the view put forward by the Minister that one set of applicants ought not to be able to take advantage of the position that would give them the full amount of their pension for a number of years when their claims are held in abeyance. There is, however, a large body of people who are connected with the various national associations that helped the Irish Volunteers and the Republican Army in the fight for freedom, and who claim that the law as it stands is unfair to those who are in Government service and in the service of public boards by making a reduction in their pensions as a result of the service they have given to these public boards or public authorities. There is another view also: that these people who gave national service have, as a result of that national service, lost advancement in the Departments in which they were serving. They did not receive the same appreciation as did other people who stood quietly in their posts.

I am afraid that is going outside the scope of this Bill. It is purely an amending Bill, proposing the amendment of two sections only of the main Acts.

I think the Minister may be able to bring in an amendment to cover the case of these people. We do not want to make it retrospective, but just to see that for the present something should be done to meet such cases.

I would like your help in this matter, Sir. Are we not entitled to propose an amendment here? I take it that this Bill is an amending Bill and in view of that, are we not entitled to propose amendments? The Minister stated that the question of deductions from pensioners who are earning public moneys does not arise. Are we not entitled if we think fit to put in an amendment along the lines that have been mentioned here?

The Chair could not rule without seeing the amendment, but I might point out that this is an amending Bill.

I take it that, if a Senator desires to discuss the principle of making deductions from military service pensions on the grounds that the persons concerned are receiving salaries in the Civil Service, that could be discussed. A Senator might oppose this Bill on the ground that none of these deductions should, in any circumstances, be made and he could argue that the part of the Bill referring to that matter should be deleted.

That would seem to be an amendment for Second Reading. There is no such amendment before the House.

Surely that would arise on an argument that the Bill should be opposed lock, stock and barrel?

The amendment should be before the House.

I take it that the Bill before the House can be opposed in the most sweeping way.

Yes, certainly, but the debate must be within the terms of the Bill which, as I have said, is an amending Bill.

The Minister said that the question of deductions in respect of public moneys received did not arise. Can we not discuss that matter? You ruled Senator O Maille out of order.

That is not quite within the terms of the Bill.

I should like to get the matter clarified. It seems to me at the moment that we are about to legalise an injustice. The law, up to the time that this Bill is passed, will give benefits to certain pensioners. The Legislature has discovered that there was a loophole in the law and, by a backdoor method, we are trying to deprive people of something to which they would be legally entitled if this form of retrospective legislation were not passed.

This House and the Dáil are front doors.

I think that Senator O'Donnell is wrong in his opinion. We are trying to rectify the position under a certain clause. The principle was established under previous Acts that no person in receipt of money from public funds, as an official of the State or of a local authority, should draw the full military service pension. There was a graded scale and, if the salary of the officer reached a certain amount, he could receive no pension. From time to time, pensions were granted and it seems that delays, instead of being dangerous, would now mean a profit to the individual. A person who would get his pension in 1944 would be in a much better position than a person who obtained his pension immediately after the passing of the Act in 1934. I think that we should pass the Bill. I do not know whether we would be allowed to discuss the different aspects of the clause under which this question arises. My opinion is that, if a person who had served this country is granted a pension, it should be given to him irrespective of whether he is a public employee or not. A sort of class distinction seems to be involved. If a man receives a salary outside the State service, he can draw his full pension but, if he receives, the same salary from the State or a local authority, he may not be entitled to any pension. The Bill deals with the rectification of conditions under that clause. Whether we would be allowed to discuss the matters to which I have adverted I do not know.

You discussed them pretty well.

I oppose the Second Reading of this Bill on the grounds that we are asked to agree to something to which some of us are opposed —deductions from the pensions of persons employed in the public service. I was rather surprised at the Cathaoirleach ruling Senator O Maille out of order because the matter to which he was referring is really the kernel of the Bill. Some of us do not understand the procedure. Are we not entitled to discuss the position of pensioners who have money deducted from their pensions because they are engaged in the public service? I referred to this matter before and I was told that it was not relevant to the particular Act under discussion. I had no communication from the Old I.R.A. or anybody else. I raised the matter simply because I had believed for a number of years that injustice was being done to some of these pensioners. I got no communication from any organisation. I did not belong to any of the organisations concerned because they were, in the main, military organisations. These deductions are made, in some cases, from lowly-paid workers such as the men who sweep the streets for the corporation. Deductions are also made from the salaries of lowly-paid civil servants. There seems to be no purpose in giving a man a pension for services rendered if you deduct 25 per cent from his pension. Under this Bill, I think we are entitled to raise that point because it is intended to deal with a matter to which some of us are opposed.

I support the ideas expressed by Senator Colgan and Senator O'Donovan. The 1924 Act was passed in very special circumstances. The circumstances of 1922 and 1923 had created a special type of difficulty for a large number of men who were detached from their normal occupations and who were prevented by the events of 1920-1921 and 1922-1923 from finding a position in the economic life of the country.

There was a general desire at the time to find employment for as many of those men as possible. A large number found positions in the Civil Service and with local bodies, but quite a large number could not be catered for at all. It was out of the pressure of the particular circumstances at that time that the 1924 Act was passed at all. The view then taken was that as men did get employment in the State there should be some sort of an off-set by way of a reduction in their pensions: that it should have some relation to the amount of money they got from their State employment. The circumstances at that time were very difficult. The views then taken on financial and certain other matters were rather stringent and narrow, and the passage of time has shown very great inequities and inequalities in the application of that particular section in the 1924 Act, a section which was carried into the 1934 Act. Twenty years have elapsed since the 1924 Act was passed. The number of people affected is growing smaller, and since then very great changes have taken place in the value of money, and in everything else. It is time, I think, that this whole thing, which has been a source of irritation, injustice and inequality, was completely taken away.

I can understand the necessity for this measure in order to get an inequality as between different classes of people who are benefiting simply because their claims are examined at different times rectified. I think that if the Seanad opposes this Bill completely it should indicate at the same time that it is prepared to pass a measure correcting whatever maladjustment the Bill sets out to deal with provided steps are taken now to end the application of this deduction in the 1924 and 1934 Acts. By doing so, the House would be putting the Minister in the position that he could say that he had the opinion of a substantial majority of the Seanad behind him, indicating that this type of deduction should come to an end. It should also be indicated to the Minister that, when a decision was taken to bring these deductions to an end, anything that required to be done retrospectively to settle the type of case affected by this Bill would be done. I desire to support Senator Colgan in his direct statement as well as the implication in the speech of Senator O'Donovan that this Bill ought not to be passed in order to get the general question faced up to.

I understand that, in a case of proceedings under the law as it stands, it would be necessary to obtain the flat of the Attorney-General before proceedings could be instituted; that, therefore, it is not really the date of the service of the proceedings that would be material whether a man had incurred expenses or not, but whether, in fact, he had asked the Attorney-General for his flat. If any person has asked the Attorney-General for his flat, then I think the Minister should agree to reimburse him the costs that he has incurred.

I have already stated that no case has been brought forward.

And no request has been made to the Attorney-General for his flat?

I should like to know if the Chair is going to give a ruling on the point raised by Senator Colgan, and whether the House can deal with that matter or not?

The Chair has given a ruling on that point already.

So that we cannot discuss it?

I agree with Senator Mulcahy that there is something to be said for getting away from the system of making deductions from military service pensions, and specially in the case of those who are poorly paid. I understand that during the last régime as well as under the present régime there are many people in this country who resigned under Article 10 of the Treaty and who, to-day, are in receipt of handsome yearly sums from the Government despite the fact that when they decided to go out on pension under that Article of the Treaty they signed a declaration to the effect that they were not prepared to serve under the change of Government. I understand that the number of such people has been growing. At one time I understood that if a man resigned under that Article of the Treaty and got a pension, the Government would not give him any work that would entitle him to receive anything from State funds.

That was so.

It is no longer the case, and I understand that it has not been the case for quite a few years. If the deduction does not apply in the case of these people, why should it be applied to the unfortunate fellows who fought in 1919 and later? Why should those who served the British Government be exempted?

I have no intention whatever of opposing the Bill. I consider that one of its objects is to continue to apply what has applied over the last 20 years. The Minister stated that those who received pensions in 1935 and in 1936 under the present Act have had deductions made from their pensions ever since. Therefore, it would be unfair, in my opinion, if those who receive lump sums in cash now were not to have deductions made from their payments at the same rate. As the Bill is intended to deal with sub-section (1) of Section 20 of the original Act, I would again appeal to the Minister to press forward the claims of those on the lower scales of pay in the Civil Service and that deductions should not be made from them now. I understand that in certain circumstances where a bonus has recently been granted, with clothes and boots at present prices the men concerned instead of suffering a reduction of 5 per cent. have suffered a deduction of 10 per cent. The same thing applies to Old I.R.A. men and members of the Cumann na mBan who may possibly be drawing old age pensions. If they are granted military service pensions they will, in some cases, suffer a loss. One case has been brought to my notice. It is that of a man with 10/- a week old age pension. Because he got 9/1½ by way of a military service pension, he has lost not only his old age pension of 10/- a week, but also the food vouchers and the free fuel allowance vouchers that went therewith. It is because of hardships of that sort which have been brought to my notice that I would appeal to the Minister to implement the suggestion that he made in the other House promising to put this matter before the Government and see what could be done. If the question of cost enters into this matter to any great extent, those whom I represent would not ask, I think, that the deletion of the deductions would be made retrospective. I think they would be satisfied if the deletion of deductions from the lower paid civil servants and Government employees generally were made operative from the present time or the nearest approximate date that the Minister would consider suitable.

I should like to say that I entirely agree with Senator Miss Kennedy that this Bill ought to be passed, because if it were not passed, certain people would enjoy advantages arising out of purely chance circumstances, that is, A would get more than B, simply because it took longer to investigate his claim, or because A applied much later than B. We would all be in agreement that purely fortuitous circumstances of that kind should not benefit one person more than another at the expense of public funds. But, since the Minister is endeavouring to stop a gap that may exist in the Bill, it raises on this stage the general question as to whether these deductions should be made at all. On that point what Senator Mulcahy said is correct. These deductions were arranged in particular circumstances in 1924, and the Schedules attached to the Bill defined an income of £500 from public funds as entirely cancelling a military service pension. I think it is now desirable that, in the light of a much higher cost of living than was experienced in 1924, or even in 1934, it should be considered whether the £500 limit should not be raised.

Senator Colgan's point that deductions from people on the lower amounts should be completely excluded should also be examined. I know there are cases where people who are employed as Government messengers at a very small wage, sometimes not more than £3 a week, and often even less than £3 a week, have deductions made for the reason that they have a very small service pension and the same thing applies to old age pensioners and to those qualifying for unemployment assistance. I think that certain injustices have also been inflicted on those who obtain unemployment grants. For instance, one of the things mentioned in a document which has been circulated to us here is the case of the lower-paid Government servants who get 10/- bonus weekly. This bonus brings them to the point at which a greater deduction must be made from their pensions, so that what the Government hands out with its left hand, it takes back with the right. I am not saying that the Government meant that, but it looks rather like it, and I do not think anyone would be dissatisfied if that kind of injury were ended.

Senator Maguire made an interesting point, and it was one on which I happened to have personal knowledge. When the last Government was in office it was decided that any man who retired under the Treaty because he would not serve an Irish Government and who took what were known as Article X conditions should not be eligible for Government employment. That rule has since been altered, and there are people in the Bar Library to-day who refused to serve an Irish Government and who were very far, indeed, from being what would be called Republican. They did not lift their fingers in any way against the Treaty and did not support, even constitutionally, those who opposed the Treaty. To-day these people are enjoying Government briefs and Government incomes, while, at the same time, they are drawing their full pensions under Article X. In raising that, Senator Maguire put his finger on a very objectionable point in our pensions legislation. On the other hand, a Government messenger out in 1916, and now getting the lowest pay in the Government service, has his pension reduced by deduction because of the comparatively small sum which he gets as a Government messenger. That is unjust and I think that the Minister ought to consider changing it.

I do not want to go into a general discussion on the whole matter, but even if the principle was not abolished, I think the changed circumstances as between 1924 and 1944 and the incidence of certain of the benefits which Senator Miss Kennedy has mentioned —old age pensions and food and fuel allowances—require consideration. In the light of all the things that have happened and the increased cost of living, the whole matter might be reexamined with sympathy, so as to provide that people, particularly in the lower grades, should not be obliged to suffer. The matter does not personally concern me in any way, but I think there is a case for it, and even if one were required by the ordinary rules of the Chair to advance such an argument only by opposing the Bill, I must ask the Chair's indulgence, seeing that this Bill ought to be passed before anybody takes legal proceedings. I am wholly in favour of passing it to-day, because I do not think there is any amendment which Senator Colgan could move, no matter what the Chair allowed him to do. The change could only be made if the Minister for Defence undertook to have the matter investigated. The problem should be considered from the point of view of raising the scale, and preventing the anomalous situation whereby a man with a pension finds himself caught by unemployment assistance or the old age pension. If we had an investigation, I think it would be possible to get an amelioration of the present position.

The Minister, I think, should give that matter careful consideration and promise the House that he will have these complaints examined. He would, perhaps, give us an idea of the value of these deductions, and of what the additional cost to the State would be if alterations were made to meet the grievances of the lower-paid grades. As a matter of fact, the Act of 1924 was worded in a particular way. It was ruled afterwards that employment in the Electricity Supply Board was not State employment. Neither is employment in the Turf Development Board and the Sugar Company, although you have a variety of organisations which have subventions from the State and which in some cases are run entirely by State funds. One example came to my notice. This was the electricity service of the Dublin Corporation which was transferred to the Electricity Supply Board. A person working in the cleansing department, who was out in the 1916 Rising with the Minister, and a number of other people, would still have a deduction made from his pension. If he was working in the lighting department and had been transferred to the Electricity Supply Board he would have got the same salary and there would be no deduction from his pension. I think that is inequitable. The whole subject is well worth inquiring into from the viewpoint of the present cost of living and without the intention of imposing any undue burden on public funds.

I think we should all get pensions. When the Minister is considering this Pensions Act I would like him to bring before the Taoiseach the case of those soldiers who fought the economic war for six years so that it might be considered whether they are entitled to pensions——

The Senator is not in order.

I would like to start off by stating that this Bill does not affect in the slightest way any Old I.R.A. man who was receiving a pension allowance for any period, either from 1924 or 1934. I have seen statements in the public Press which were complete distortions of the truth, and I believe they were deliberately written for the purpose of distorting the truth and making people have an idea that something was being done which was not being done. I want to say here and now that the only purpose of the Bill is to ensure that the Acts which have been operating over a period of almost 20 years in the case of the 1924 Act and ten years in the case of the 1934 Act will continue.

There have been many digressions in the course of the discussions on this Bill. We have discussed other things besides what is contained in it, and it is very difficult for me to take up the various matters which have been mentioned here by the Senators. I might express my own views by saying that I am in sympathy with most of what has been stated, but the fact remains that, when these Acts were passed, I presume that they were carefully considered by the members of both Houses of the Oireachtas in 1924, and later on in 1934, and they were passed with full knowledge of what they meant.

Now, the question of scaling down —if that is the right term—the Schedule is a very difficult one. The more I looked at that as a means of bringing about amelioration, the more difficult I could see it would be. For instance, you could bring down the first or the second, but then you have the third or the fourth so close to these that the people in these and the other categories would naturally feel that a grave injustice was being done to them, and they would, of course, continue to make the claim that their demands should also be included. I came to the conclusion that the only remedy would be to remove the Schedule completely, and the section which applies, but I do not think that the Dáil or the Seanad want me to do that. Indeed, I do not think it could be done.

What would it cost to do it?

It would cost something in the nature of £50,000 annually. It is very questionable if we should do it. Senator Mulcahy has given the reasons why, in the first instance, the Schedules were established, and I can say that we followed the precedent created in the 1924 Act by inserting the Schedule in the 1934 Act so as to make both Acts as nearly identical as possible. As regards these lowly-paid men, such as ushers and messengers, the point in their case is that we, just as the former Government, deliberately put into employment, wherever it was possible to do so, men who, at some time or other, gave national service. We felt that, in giving these men with national service a gainful type of employment, we were doing something which was much better than leaving them merely with their pensions.

It was felt that that was also a reward for the services given and, if it was intended in that way, then there should have to be some abatement in respect of the pensions. However small the abatement may be in their cases, it is true to say that some of the bonus payments have made it somewhat more difficult for the individuals who secured them. Whether, in fact, we can do anything in respect of the Schedule, it is very difficult to say. I do not think it would be possible to do anything. Having regard to what Senators have said, I will undertake to bring their statements to the attention of the Government and to do whatever is possible for these people.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.
Bill passed through Committee without amendment and reported.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill be returned to the Dáil"—put and agreed to.
Ordered accordingly.
Top
Share