asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the reported discovery of a listening device hidden in a section of a Waterford factory used by trade unions for meetings of their members, he has any plans to introduce legislation to outlaw electronic eavesdropping; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Electronic Eavesdropping Devices.
2.
Limerick East): I would refer the Deputy to the replies which I gave to similar questions from him on 16 February 1983 and 21 March 1984, Official Report volume 340, No. 2 columns 313-314, and volume 349, No. 1 column 12-19, respectively.
That is a very enlightening reply. If I had a computer at my elbow I might be able to locate the information I am seeking. Is there any intention to introduce legislation to outlaw electronic eavesdropping? Has this matter been discussed or decided upon by the Government?
(Limerick East): This is a matter of concern internationally. No European country has yet succeeded in bringing forward legislation on this matter. In that context I do not envisage legislation being put forward in the foreseeable future.
I am sure the Minister is aware of the concern, particularly among trade unionists, as a result of the recent finding of a device in a factory in the Waterford area. Does he not consider there is an urgency at least to indicate what discussions have taken place in regard to legislation or guidelines which he may propose to issue in relation to the use of electronic bugging devices?
(Limerick East): Some preliminary examination has been carried out in my Department but it has been established that no European country, not even any of the large countries where the problem is thought to be widespread, has succeeded in bringing forward proposals which would deal adequately with the problem. This is not because of lack of will on the part of these countries but because of the enormous complexity of the area.
The question asked the Minister to make a statement on this matter. Is he saying that in relation to this question he does not intend to carry out an investigation into the alleged bugging in a factory with which a Minister of State in his Government is allegedly connected? I would have thought that this would give the Minister an opportunity to make a statement on that matter because it appeared very prominently in the media.
(Limerick East): The Minister of State has responded adequately and publicly to any suggestions that have been made. If the Deputy wants to make other suggestions or allegations the Minister of State is quite capable of replying to that. The question here has asked me if I have any plans to introduce legislation. I have made a statement on that as requested and I have answered the question adequately.
I am calling Deputy De Rossa for the next question.
As a supplementary I asked the Minister if he had any intention of carrying out any investigation into this matter.
(Limerick East): That is a different question. It is not a supplementary.
The Minister was asked to make a statement on the matter.
Mr. Noonan
(Limerick East): It was on a matter of whether I intended introducing legislation. I have made a statement on that.
The Minister is avoiding the issue.
Mr. Noonan
(Limerick East): I am not. If the Deputy wants to put down a question he will get an answer.
I would not say I would get an answer on the face of it.
(Limerick East): The Deputy is coming in on a free flight on another Deputy's question.
Sir, on a point of order, could you explain to the Minister the way in which Question Time works and ask him to withdraw the remark he made? I am totally and absolutely entitled to come in on any of the questions during this first period although there are Priority Questions at the end, but as I understand it it does not preclude me from raising supplementary questions which are allowed by the Chair.
I do not believe that the Minister has been out of order. I appreciate that through no fault of his own the Deputy may not be aware that recently we decided in the House to make some progress with Question Time and to speed it up. That was at the request and with the concurrence of——
That does not limit supplementary questions.
I am not going to allow a debate or discussion on this or any other question.
Could the Minister indicate where he sees the difficulties arising in introducing the legislation that I have inquired about and can he at the very least indicate what steps he would like to see taken even on a voluntary basis——
A question, Deputy.
——by persons who have the use of these devices? Can he indicate what problems he sees in relation to this legislation and if the Government propose at any time in the course of the next six months or so to introduce anything to restrict electronic eavesdropping?
(Limerick East): No, there is no proposal to introduce legislation within the next six months. The difficulties are obvious if one thinks about it. They are in the areas of definition and legitimate and illegitimate use of recording devices. For example, what does one do with somebody who records a telephone conversation in order to have a record of it? How does one cope with a journalist who interviews one on the phone and records the interview for legitimate purposes? What does one do with the whole area of privacy and the privacy of conversations, public conversations, public statements and private conversations? That leads one inevitably into the area of the privacy of one's movements. What does one do about photographs being taken? Are we to restrict photographs to situations where permission is granted? It is enormously complex.
(Interruptions.)
Ceist 3. Will the Minister please answer Question No. 3?
I asked the Minister if at least——
It is all right for Fine Gael to eavesdrop.
Mr. Noonan
(Limerick East): If Deputies would like to open up the discussion we will have a conversation about it. There will be plenty of opportunities. I will be bringing in a Bill shortly and I hope that all on the other side will be contributing at length to it.
Would the Minister please answer Question No. 3?
It is a sneaky industrial practice and the Minister should be condemning it instead of defending it.