We welcome the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, to the Chamber. Deputy Richard O'Donoghue is the only one of those with a Priority Question who is present.
Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions
Question No. 81 taken with Written Answers.
Question No. 82 taken after Question No. 83.
Civil Service
Richard O'Donoghue
Question:83. Deputy Richard O'Donoghue asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the reason that the Government is refusing to publish the salaries paid to the Secretaries General of Government Departments (details supplied). [56782/22]
For what reason does the Government not publish the salaries paid to the Secretaries General of Government Departments? I note that over recent years we have seen that the pension payments made to former taoisigh and Ministers have not been published.
I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for his question. He may be interested to know that the salary scale of Secretaries General and equivalent grades is a matter of public record and is disclosed in replies to parliamentary questions. Also, circulars detailing the salaries applicable to each civil servant grade, including the Secretary General grade, are published and are publicly available on the circulars page of the Gov.ie website. The most recent circular listing out the salary scales of civil servants, Circular 19/2022, was published on 12 October and includes Secretary General salary scales and notes the amount of the highest rate paid to a Secretary General.
There have been no changes to these disclosure arrangements that would have had the effect of restricting transparency in relation to Secretary General salaries. In fact, the appropriation accounts for 2021 included new additional disclosure requirements in relation to salaries of Accounting Officers. As the Deputy is aware, the legislative basis for the annual appropriation accounts is the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866. In the interests of transparency and accountability, each year my Department considers requirements for more enhanced reporting while also considering any legal constraints on disclosing information. Any extra information disclosed in the accounts is in the form of notes to the accounts. These notes to the accounts aid the reader to better understand the expenditure and receipts for each Government Department and office of Government.
In that regard, in March of this year my Department issued an instruction to all Accounting Officers requesting additional reporting requirements, including the disclosure of the Accounting Officer's gross salary in the appropriation accounts for each of the 45 Vote-holding Departments, offices of Government and other entities. This additional reporting requirement commenced with the 2021 appropriation account. These audited appropriation accounts were published by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General on 30 September 2022.
My Department is considering further enhancing the information in the salary note for this year's appropriation accounts. The enhancements being considered include provision of salary band data as well as further information on the gross remuneration of Accounting Officers. The provision of information in relation to gross remuneration reflects the fact that decisions regarding voluntary deductions from salaries are a personal matter. I will come back to this in my next response.
The general data protection regulation, GDPR, is being used as an outright breach of transparency to the taxpayer. Given that the taxpayer foots the bill, GDPR legislation was never intended to be interpreted to ensure that non-payment to any individual could never be published again. Using GDPR legislation in this manner is very dangerous. Today it could be used to block transparency around payments to former taoisigh and barristers; and tomorrow, if it goes unchallenged, all payments by the State could be beyond the reach of the public. Does this sound like transparency to the Minister?
The specific question raised by the Deputy relates to the salaries paid to Secretaries General across Government Departments. In my initial reply, I outlined that the salary scales and grades of every Secretary General are a matter of public record and are published in a whole range of ways, including through parliamentary questions that are answered here on the record. Information is also provided by way of the appropriation accounts. The specific issue that has been raised by some of the Deputy's colleagues relates to waivers or the gifting of a portion of salary by individuals. That is a personal matter. In respect of what we can publish, we are governed by the rulings of the Ombudsman and Information Commissioner. Following the bringing of a case to the commissioner in respect of the Freedom of Information Acts, the Ombudsman and Information Commissioner has deemed that to be personal information. This governs what we can and cannot publish with regard to net salaries and what somebody may decide, for whatever reason, to give as a portion of their salary. The salary set by the State is a matter of public record, which is officially published.
Why is there a need to hide the information when the taxpayer pays the salaries of these people? Why would the senior civil servants do this and why is the Government allowing it to happen? If everything is above board, why is there a need to hide the information? As the journalist Daniel McConnell recently wrote, "Experience has taught us time and time again, where there are shadows, dodgy things tend to go on." Again, I ask the Minister why there is a need to hide this information when the taxpayer pays the salaries of these officials. In his answer the Minister seems to be dodging the bullet. If nothing is being done wrong there should be no need to hide this information, regardless of where they are actually giving the moneys to. It should be a matter of public record.
I reiterate that the salary associated with each grade of Secretary General is a matter of public record and is published. Information is published in the relevant appropriation accounts. As the Deputy is aware, those accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and come before the Committee of Public Accounts for further scrutiny when the reports become available.
The specific issue, which I am aware has been raised by members of the Committee of Public Accounts, and which the Deputy is touching on this evening, relates to net salary. They want to tease out whether somebody is gifting a proportion of the salary, when they started gifting, when they finished gifting, and so on. We are governed by rulings made by the Information Commissioner.
The Information Commissioner has deemed the issue of the gifting of salary to be personal information and, therefore, not subject to disclosure. The salary the State is liable to pay every Secretary General across government is published and is a matter of public record.
Office of Public Works
Michael Lowry
Question:82. Deputy Michael Lowry asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will provide an update on efforts made by the Office of Public Works to identify a site for a visitor and interpretative centre in Cashel, County Tipperary; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [56757/22]
I ask for an update on efforts to identify a site for a visitor and interpretative centre at Cashel. Discussions, consultations and appraisals have been ongoing for years and we have been going around in circles with no conclusions. We have too many agencies around the table. We need someone to get a hold of this, give direction and make it happen.
Historically, over many decades, the Office of Public Works, OPW, has held a statutory remit for the care and conservation of Ireland’s heritage estate. In tandem with this statutory role, the OPW has a mandate to engage in the presentation to the public of heritage sites entrusted to its care. The increasing popularity of heritage sites with visitors, to a point where it is estimated that visits to Irish heritage sites number in excess of 20 million annually, is highly encouraging and represents a strong endorsement of the success of this approach.
The OPW has a strategic partnership with Fáilte Ireland and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to spur investment in the heritage estate to increase standards of interpretation and visitor experience and support local tourism economies. Cashel has featured as a site of focus since the earliest days of this partnership.
The Rock of Cashel is one of six sites making up the Royal Sites of Ireland, which were placed on the UNESCO tentative list for world heritage in July 2022. The OPW is entrusted with the care of the complex of five national monuments situated on the Rock of Cashel. In 1975, the hall of the vicar's choral was re-roofed and restored, part financed by the European Regional Development Fund. In the early 2000s, a major conservation project started on Cormac’s Chapel, which is not only one of the most significant early Romanesque buildings in the country but also contains fragments of an immensely important scheme of wall paintings. There is a continuous conservational ethos with all the buildings on-site.
I am encouraged to note there has been a strong recovery in visitor numbers to the Rock of Cashel post-pandemic. In 2019, there were 272,498 visitors. Between January and August 2022, there were 210,154 visitors to the site, which places it in a strong position to equal if not surpass pre-pandemic visitor numbers.
As the Deputy is aware, the OPW is one entity working as part of a collaborative effort in place since mid-2019, together with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Fáilte Ireland and Tipperary County Council, to assess options for the development of a new all-purpose visitor facility in the town which would serve the needs of the Rock of Cashel visitor site and the town of Cashel, acting as an engine for economic, tourism and cultural sector growth. The remit of the OPW in this wider collaborative effort relates primarily to our dual mandate to conserve and present for visitors the complex of national monuments that make up the Rock of Cashel site and have been entrusted to the care of the OPW.
Go raibh maith agat, Minister of State. That might be an appropriate place to stop.
The Rock of Cashel is a jewel in the crown of Tipperary and Irish tourism. It is the number one attraction in the south east. It is known worldwide and a destination of choice for a huge number of national and international tourists. Cashel has rebounded from Covid. Recent statistics reveal that, as of August this year, up to 170,000 visitors had enjoyed the majestic Rock of Cashel, representing a 69% increase in numbers on the previous year. Prior to Covid, an average of 370,000 visitors stopped in Cashel and the site has an average of 1,000 visitors per day.
The Magnier family recently invested heavily to restore Cashel Palace to its former splendour. The town of Cashel has been greatly enhanced by its reopening. It has revitalised the local economy. The Rock of Cashel is one of our prime national attractions. Despite years of planning, it remains without an identified location for a visitor and interpretive centre. This is a glaring omission which must be urgently addressed. How advanced are those discussions?
The OPW, along with the other agencies, has formed a steering group which has been investigating a number of sites for a potential visitor centre. It has been working with the local community and tourism representatives to determine where a site should be placed. Along with its partners, it has engaged international expertise and carried out a scoping report which has been presented to my Department for consideration. A number of sites have been visited and identified. Consideration is being given to existing arrangements for public parking, toilets, reception, café, retail and exhibition. There will be an assessment of the report and a decision will be made in the coming weeks.
When does the Minister of State expect that decision to be made? The continuing delays in providing a visitor centre in Cashel are depriving the town of much-needed revenue. The business centre of the town has never been able to take full economic advantage of the numbers visiting the town. Typically, when tour buses stop at a popular destination, people on the bus are given a certain amount of time to spend at the relevant attraction. This time usually allows for a visit to an interpretive centre and can be extended to explore the town. If no such centre is available, the tour guides often choose to leave the area, and that is happening in Cashel. The town has an average of 1,000 visitors per day. It is of fundamental importance that it have the services and attractions to allow it to capitalise on this footfall. Local businesses benefit when tourists have the opportunity to linger and discover an area, rather than be whisked away again on buses.
A national tourist attraction of this magnitude requires that all the relevant agencies the Minister of State referred to co-operate with a sense of purpose and urgency to deliver an interpretive centre without further delay. Where exactly are we with that? When does the Minister of State anticipate the steering group will make a recommendation and when will we have a decision?
I am speaking on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan. Cashel is one of the most important sites in the country and was visited by Queen Elizabeth II and others. The next step is to assess the identified site locations. They will be matched against defined criteria to be agreed by the project steering group. The group will have regard to the conceptual spatial model, which will encompass requirements for the proposed new facility.
If the outcomes of this study are favourable, this will lead to further studies that will review sources of funding, possible management and operational options and other requirements laid out in the public spending code. The steering group for the project continues to meet on a regular basis. I do not have dates or costs. I will take the Deputy's concerns to the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, and ask him to speak to the Deputy directly.