The Deputy who tabled the next question is not here. If a Deputy is delayed, we will go back and take the question when they arrive.
Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions
Question No. 92 taken with Written Answers.
Third Level Reform
Marc Ó Cathasaigh
Question:93. Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the position regarding an announcement of the funding allocations being made available under PATH 4, phase 1; the institutions that have applied for this funding; if the quantum of funding will be sufficient to meet the demand; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59617/22]
We discussed this issue at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Autism recently. I am seeking further detail on the announcement of the funding allocations to be made under PATH 4, phase 1. I wish to know the institutions that have applied for funding and whether the quantum of funding will be sufficient to meet the demand. Will the Minister make a statement on the matter?
I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh for the question. We initially discussed this at the Committee on Autism and I thank him for following it up further. In June, I announced €12 million in funding for a new four-year strand of PATH funding. This is funding that is directed as under-represented groups in higher education. This is known as PATH 4. Phase 1 supports the embedding of universal design approaches and inclusive practices in HEIs. Universal design is based on the principles of flexibility and choice for all students. It recognises that a well-designed service or approach will accommodate the diverse range of student needs. Universal design is a proactive approach to inclusion that eliminates the need for separate arrangements for those with particular needs. This will benefit all students, including autistic students.
This phase will also enable institutions to build capacity to support greater participation by students with intellectual disabilities in higher education. It involves once-off funding of €3 million in 2022. Just before coming into the Chamber, I received a list of some of the ideas that have come back. I may get a chance to discuss some of this with the Deputy, but everybody will get a portion of the €3 million. A number of really good ideas have come back, including charters for universal design, leadership seminars, training of students and staff and transition programmes to welcome autistic students. Those are some examples from the comprehensive list I have just received. HEIs are required to develop a project plan, which is what I have just received, showing how the funding will be used.
There are 19 HEIs participating in the PATH programme. In the main, these are the publicly funded institutions. I am pleased to confirm that all 19 HEIs have now submitted project plans and that funding will issue in the coming weeks. In regard to the Deputy's question on the quantum of funding being sufficient to meet demand, the funding for PATH 4 is being provided using an allocation model that gives each institution a base amount, with additional funding being provided to institutions on the basis of student numbers and the number of students with disabilities. The overall project, including the levels of funding, will be evaluated to assess effectiveness and impact in order to inform future policy developments. I genuinely believe success in this area will require me being under pressure to find more funding. Such is the level of good ideas coming through, that would be a good outcome.
I thank the Minister for the answer. I want to try to dig down and understand how the funding allocation model works. The Minister stated that there is base funding, with a proportion allocated on the basis of student numbers. In regard to applying a cost-benefit analysis, €3 million in the first year is a significant amount. I want to rest assured that we are giving plenty of guidance to the HEIs on how to proceed and that we are scaffolding their efforts around it. We must have an evaluation process to ensure that the taxpayer is getting value for money, on the one hand, and that students are getting the maximum possible benefit, on the other. I sometimes worry when money is given out in the absence of strict performance criteria. I would like the money that is being allocated to unlock the greatest possible benefit for the students who will derive that benefit.
I should have said that we have brought in the National Disability Authority, NDA, to evaluate these projects. I wish to thank it for doing so. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, and the NDA are evaluating these projects. Before I launched the call for funding, I met with representatives from the NDA to discuss this matter. I also met them briefly again at a conference I attended yesterday and had the opportunity to thank them for their work. Project plans come in and are evaluated by the HEA and the NDA and money is then approved and disbursed for the project plans using the allocation I outlined. There will also be an evaluation of the projects post implementation to assess effectiveness and impact. This is very much a starting point. There is much more we need to do in this space. This is €3 million to get the wheels moving in terms of using best practice to identify what is happening well across the country and seeking to expand that. It is also there to empower HEIs to come up with their own plans. There have been workshops at which there has been brainstorming with HEIs, a sharing of ideas and presentations from the HEA and the NDA.
I acknowledge the work that Dublin City University, DCU, has been doing in this space. Representatives from DCU also made a presentation to the joint committee. It is exciting to see the idea and principle of universal design being applied to universities and to housing and such matters. It acknowledges that these specific interventions might be of particular use to autistic people and help them in the context of access. However, many of these interventions are going to help everyone in the student body, not just those who are autistic, and make our campuses more inclusive places. I will be very interested to see what the evaluation shows. It is well worth putting the money in. However, it is important that we monitor the level of success and how effective what is being done is from a student point of view and ensure that a structure is in place for information sharing so that best practice can be shared. We should not have to reinvent the wheel on each campus. That evaluation system is going to be important in ensuring that we share the experience and best practice.
I have engaged with the Minister on this issue previously. There are many positives. As Deputy Ó Cathasaigh said, it is a matter of ensuring that best practice is employed. Universal design makes campuses more comfortable. Whether we are talking about autistic people or those with other disabilities, it is by means of universal design for learning that we can enable individuals. It is almost a case of arriving at a bespoke solution for every individual in the best way we can. We need to ensure that this happens. There is also the wider issue of ensuring that the scaffolding and framework are in place to facilitate these students to be all that they can be, which is what we are trying to do across the board.
I agree with Deputy Ó Murchú. That is a very good summary of what we are trying to do. As Deputy Ó Cathasaigh said, having the evaluation is key to this. As we discussed in some detail at the Joint Committee on Autism, the cliff edge has moved for far too many students from getting from primary to secondary school or from getting from secondary school to third level. That is what we are trying to fix. It can be fixed in a couple of ways. I am a great believer in universal design. I have seen many good examples of it. That is why tranche 1 is about universal design guided by the NDA, with projects approved by a panel involving the NDA and the HEA. Evaluation will then take place afterward. I am happy to keep the House informed on that. We also need to recognise that there will still be a need for specific programmes. Even with all the universal design in the world, there is still a need for the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities and for some of the good initiatives Deputy Ó Cathasaigh referenced in DCU. In phase 2, there will be €3 million a year over three years to get HEIs to come forward with particular programmes for students with intellectual disabilities. If we can get this right, it could be a game-changer.
Research Funding
Paul Murphy
Question:94. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if he will engage with PhD researcher unions (details supplied) to ensure that all PhD research students receive a living wage income or above via their stipend; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59820/22]
Will the Minister engage with PhD researchers' unions to ensure that all PhD students receive a living wage income and that they are treated as workers?
The truth is that they are well below the minimum wage. The highest available PhD stipends are €18,500 over a 40-hour week. Most of them do significantly more than that, which works out at less than €9 per hour.
I thank the Deputy for the question. He is aware of the short-term benefits, introduced in the budget in terms of one-off payments or increases to the stipend baseline, so I will not waste time on that. I accept we need to do more. We need to retain talent in Ireland and we need to attract talent to Ireland. I have engaged with many PhD students and postgraduate students, and as recently as yesterday I met a group of researchers with disabilities led by Dr. Vivian Rath.
The key thing we need to do is to have a proper evidence-based review of the stipend and the income supports, but also how they are classified in terms of the balance of students versus employees. I agree that question needs to be settled. I had an interesting discussion with a group of PhD researchers who referenced countries that have good practice for PhD researchers, some of whom are treated as students and some of whom are classified as employees, so it would be interesting to see the evidence on that and how it pans out.
I have decided that the review will be external and I have appointed two external co-chairs, Dr. Andrea Johnson and David Cagney. The scope of the review, as I said, is quite broad. It will look at current PhD researcher supports, including financial supports, stipends, SUSI supports and other supports. It will look at the adequacy, consistency and equity of current arrangements across research funders and higher education institutions, including equity and welfare considerations, at the status of PhD researchers, student or employee, including a review of international comparators and models, and at graduate outcomes. It will also look at visa requirements and duration for non-EU students, which I am coming across as a real issue for many students researchers and their families. The review will be informed by a robust evidence base and will be completed in 2023. The first job of the review will be to engage directly with PhD researchers and I will make sure, as a result of the Deputy's question, that the unions and alliances he has referenced hear from the co-chairs.
The issue of treating PhD students as workers is the central issue because what flows from it is that, if we recognise them as employees, then they have to be paid at least the minimum wage. They are workers in terms of the research work they do but also, in very many cases, in the context of the unpaid work they do in delivering tutorials, demonstrations, correcting assignments and exams, and even lecturing. In very many cases, a condition for getting PhD scholarships to cover their fees is that they have to do this teaching. The truth is that universities have become increasingly reliant on this unpaid and low-paid labour over the past decades, and PhDs have been particularly badly hit. That is why a key demand of the Postgraduate Workers Alliance and the PhDs’ Collective Action Union is for worker status for PhDs. It would address the major issues with pay and change immigration status for many non-EU PhDs, giving them a greater right to travel. It would also allow them to engage in collective bargaining.
The status issue that the Deputy has outlined will be considered. It is an explicit term of the terms of reference. What I would also flag to the Deputy, as I flagged earlier, is that in this House we will have an opportunity in 2023 to pass a research Bill. The Government has committed to bringing forward a stand-alone national research Bill in 2023. This will be the Bill to give effect to many of the provisions of Impact 2030, including the creation of one new agency for funding research in Ireland, but will also perhaps give an opportunity to look at scientific advisory structures and, therefore, it will give an opportunity to deal with any of the recommendations that flow from the review as well.
I would encourage the organisations and groups the Deputy is referencing to engage with the reviewers, as I know they will. It will be open to public consultation but there will also be specific stakeholder engagement. I will make sure the Deputy is aware of how that is going to work in terms of the process. We will be led by the evidence that the review produces.
Ireland compares badly with its EU peers in terms of how PhD workers are treated. I listed the kind of stipends at the high end and, obviously, there are many on less than that, but the EU average for a PhD pay is €32,100, and pay in Nordic countries starts at about €50,000 and progresses to €55,000 on a fixed-term four-year contract. Separate from the issue of treatment as workers and the issue of pay that relate to it are a series of other issues that the PhD workers unions are raising, such as ending discrimination against non-EU PhD researchers, clear information about welfare and housing support entitlements for PhD researchers, allocation of affordable HEI-owned student accommodation for postgraduates proportionate to the HEI postgraduate population, an end to precarity in higher education and research and improved access and support for all who wish to pursue postgraduate research and teaching positions, including a dramatic increase in funding for disability services.
It is never too late to do the right thing. I very much welcome the review and the legislation that the Minister is proposing around this and I hope it will fix what has been broken for a long time, in particular on an individual level in terms of pushing PhD researchers into poverty. I have met so many PhD researchers over the last couple of years. They are the most modest, frugal people in probably the whole of the population. Given the valuable work they do on climate change, public health and so many other issues that we need addressed across the country, they are vital to our present and to our future. Every day, we hear of new innovations and new revelations that are being made, and they are being made on the basis of the very hard work that is done by these PhD researchers. I take on board what the Minister is saying on the terms of reference and how this is going to be scoped. I ask him to sit down, as others have, with the unions to make sure we capture everything and that we get it right this time. I ask when that review will be finished and when the legislation will come in. The Minister knows that legislation often comes into this House and that it then takes ages to complete. The Opposition will work with the Minister to make sure it is expedited.
I always welcome others working with me. This legislation will have to go through pre-legislative scrutiny. It is the Government’s intention to publish legislation early in 2023 and then, to be truthful, we will be in the hands of the joint committee in terms of pre-legislative scrutiny. That pre-legislative scrutiny will be very important. Ministers often ask for it to be waived for good reasons but, on this occasion, I think pre-legislative scrutiny will be important to give voice and an opportunity for a number of these stakeholders to outline their views. We need to get this legislation right. I hope we can pass the legislation together in 2023 and I hope we can begin the process early in 2023, and that is my honest take on it.
Deputy Paul Murphy outlined a range of issues that clearly highlight the need for a national review. I do not think it is as easy as the stipend, although I accept there is a need to do more on the stipend. The breadth of the issues is quite significant. We have to get this right. I accept more needs to be done and we need a robust evidence base as to how to proceed. I would very much welcome the engagement of this House on the review.
Disability Services
Ruairí Ó Murchú
Question:95. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if he will detail the work that is currently being undertaken by his Department in respect of workforce planning and the future training of students in the area of disability services, particularly occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and child psychologists; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59172/22]
I ask the Minister to detail the work that is currently being undertaken by his Department in respect of workforce planning and the future training of students in the area of disability services, particularly occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and child psychologists. I could probably have used the term "etc." at the end of that sentence. We have had discussions in this regard. We know there are programmes in regard to recruitment abroad but we want to make sure we are not still in the terrible situation we are now in for the next four or five years.
I thank the Deputy for raising this question and we had some engagement on it previously. When I look at the whole area of health and social care, there are 26 professions that I have come across so far in terms of the breadth of courses and professions that need to be addressed. We have to ensure there is an appropriate pipeline of suitably qualified professionals in disciplines required for disability teams and the therapy professions operating across the health, children and education sectors.
This is a key priority for me and for my Department. It is important to say that the provision of such programmes in the further and higher education system must have regard to overall workforce plans which are the responsibility of relevant agencies and Departments to develop for their sectors. It is a responsibility of agencies and Departments to say “This is what we need for our workforce and this is our workforce planning”, and it is then my sector's responsibility to dovetail with that and make sure we can meet those needs. Such plans need to take account of planned service expansion, retirement and improvements in the retention of existing staff and changes in the mix of staff, which employers are best placed to understand and influence.
The programme for Government commits the Department of Health to working with the education sectors, regulators and professional bodies to improve the availability of health professionals and reform their training to support integrated care across the entire health service.
Significant engagement is ongoing between my Department, the Department of Health, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and the Department of Education to develop a joined-up approach to meet system-level demand in therapeutic disciplines.
Health and social care programmes are, by their nature, complex in delivery. The availability of appropriate placements and placement supports is a key enabler of expansion. A working group, including representation from the Department of Health, the HSE and CORU as well as the higher education sector, is now in place specifically to examine how placements can be secured to facilitate greater numbers of training places. That will be key.
I want to build on the progress made this year in respect of medicine places, and I am optimistic we can do so. We jointly agreed an approach in that regard and got on with it. The HEA, on my behalf, will be going out to the sector in March to ask what it can do specifically on the disciplines and therapies raised by the Deputy. There will be a scanning exercise in March in that regard.
That is all very welcome. As the Minister stated, it is about ensuring there is a pipeline, something we have not had in recent years. I welcome that the Minister is talking about multiple Departments. We all get that there is crossover, particularly in respect of disability services. It is fair to say we are not starting from the point at which we would like to start in the sense there probably has been insufficient conversation from the Department of Health and the HSE in previous years, and possibly the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. All I want to know is that the correct conversations are happening and then, to put it colloquially, the devil and all is being done from the point of view of delivering for these necessary services.
If I may, I will ask a question on another matter, relating to the Trinity centre job activation and engaging with industry. Is the Minister considering using the likes of the education and training board, ETB, structure from the point of view of doing that for both the Trinity centre and other projects that might fall under phase 4?
The short answer to the Deputy's final question is, "Yes". It is up to the autonomous institutions to determine their own programmes. We want to create a unified tertiary education system, however, so I would very much welcome proposals that involve further and higher education working together.
As regards workforce planning, there is a level of engagement now that was not present in the past, frankly. We need to do a much better job of planning to meet the public service needs. Although training is only part of this, we must ensure we are training enough people to work in these professions. We made good progress, objectively, in respect of medicine last year. A total of 60 extra medicine places at undergraduate level were provided last year. That was good. There are at least 60 more coming in September. We have agreed a multi-year approach to get to where we need to be on medicine. This year, we must do the same in respect of nursing and therapies. We cannot have a situation where we are not training enough speech and language therapists, occupational therapists, physiotherapists or any of the 26 other professions in which we know there is a chronic need for more people to work. In March next year, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, will ask all institutions to come forward with what they can do in these spaces.
That is all very welcome. We must also deal with issues relating to working conditions, among other factors that are outside the remit of the Minister, to increase retention and make it attractive to work in those spheres.
We are dealing with the sphere of disability. My constituency colleague Deputy O'Dowd may not like what I am about to do, but I raise again the issue of personal assistants, PAs. We have had a significant amount of engagement on this issue. My understanding is the Minister is willing to meet PAs, who do great work at the likes of Ó Fiaich Institute of Further Education and Drogheda Institute of Further Education.
Speaking of my PA-----
I refer to the education and training board ETB industrial relations meeting that is to take place on 15 December. Fórsa is going to have a specific meeting as well. Will the Minister provide the dates in that regard and give a commitment to meet the PAs afterwards? I know a significant number of others have done work-----
The Deputy is over time. I call an tAire to respond.
I will keep in touch with the Deputy in respect of PA hours, I wrote to him on the matter yesterday. Deputy O'Dowd is in an awkward position.
It is okay. I will speak to Deputy Ó Murchú afterwards.
I agree with the Deputy's position in respect of workforce planning. There is good work going on. I have outlined my position. In March, we will ask the higher education sector what it can do, innovatively and otherwise. This is important. We have just had a mapping exercise in respect of veterinary medicine and a number of other professions. There is now a significant level of ambition to create at least one more veterinary school. I am excited about that. It shows that when those in the system are asked what they can do in terms of what is new and innovative to help us to provide more places to meet the demands of the country, we can make progress.
I wrote to the Deputy yesterday on the issue of PA hours.
I appreciate that.
Student Accommodation
Richard Boyd Barrett
Question:96. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science his plans to ensure students have access to affordable accommodation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59753/22]
It is a stark and unacceptable fact that even if a student is in receipt of the maximum SUSI grant of €6,115, he or she will not be able to afford student accommodation at UCD, where even the cheapest and supposedly most affordable rates range from €6,900 a year up to €10,745. What will the Minister do to ensure there is affordable accommodation at publicly funded colleges and universities, and more generally, for the student population?
I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. It has been a significant week in terms of changing the Government's policy on student accommodation. This week, I went to Government with a proposal that, for the first time, the State will use taxpayers' money to help to build publicly owned college accommodation. I have stated in the House previously that we have been too reliant on the private market in this regard. We are now changing that policy. Three projects, at Maynooth, Galway and Limerick universities, have now been approved as part of that. Five universities have active planing permission and those are three of them. UCD and DCU are the other two and we are engaging to try to get them over the line as well. We have also provided €1 million to technological universities to do a similar exercise to bring in the expertise and capabilities to come up with their own plans. The process and policy have changed this week, however. We are open for business to receive applications from publicly funded institutions where we will bridge that viability gap. The phrase "viability gap" is jargon to an extent but, in effect, it is the difference we need to make up to ensure the accommodation can be built and affordable. I have stated clearly this week, and the Government has agreed, that the accommodation that needs to be provided in return for any investment we make must be made available below the market rate. It must be available at €6,000 or less, which is in line with or slightly below the maximum SUSI grant. That is the new policy we now have in place. The result is that almost 700 units that were stalled for several years and would not otherwise have been built will be able to commence and go ahead in 2023. The bigger picture and the bigger win for the sector and students is we now have a new approach to student accommodation. I know it cannot come fast enough, but it will make a real difference in making sure we have more college-owned accommodation. My challenge to every university and college is for them to send in their plans and get ready because the excuse or truth that the Government is not providing funding for student accommodation is no longer true.
Government funding for student accommodation is welcome but the devil is in the detail. Will it be genuinely affordable? How much of this new accommodation will there be? It is only the accommodation built with the money the State will put in that will be supposedly affordable. The rest will be unaffordable. Is the Minister aware, for example, that, every year, UCD imposes the maximum legally allowed increase of 2%? Every year, it increases the rent on students despite the fact there is an affordability crisis. Does he know the new accommodation built at UCD will be €1,300? It is outrageous. That is the same as market rates. We cannot have a situation where national universities and publicly funded universities are charging these extortionate rates. According to the Minister, there will be a little bit of affordable, but we are not even clear on the detail. Will it genuinely be affordable? Even if the maximum rent is €6,000, as the Minister stated, that would eat up almost all of a student's grant. There is not a single piece of accommodation at UCD currently, for example, that would be fully covered by the maximum SUSI grant.
There are two parts to this, as the Deputy may have heard me say earlier. There is a supply issue. To take Maynooth University as an example, based on the figures I have in my head, for every one student who got a student accommodation bed on campus, there were six others who sought one. There was a demand this year for student accommodation, at current rates, that could not be met. We have to ramp up supply. I take the point on affordability, however. I have no interest in student accommodation being opened with great fanfare but not being affordable for the bulk of students. I am trying to find a mechanism that allows the State to give money to universities that is in compliance with state aid rules and all those kinds of things with which we need to comply and enables accommodation to be provided at affordable rates. The debate in respect of what is affordable is a somewhat subjective one.
The Deputy has raised with me previously in the House that there are different ways the State can help people meet the cost of their rent if the unit is built. However, if the unit is not built, we are having an academic conversation, if he will pardon the pun. The key thing is to build the accommodation and make sure we can use many tools, including student grants and other suggestions the Deputy has made, to try to help students meet the cost of rent.
On that point, we must do the catch-up and provide purpose-built, affordable, student accommodation on university lands. By the way, the idea of state aid rules kicking in is slightly worrying when it comes to public universities. These are public universities and public goods, but I will leave that aside. The vast majority of students are still prey to what is going on in the wider private rental market. Many of them are licensees living in digs and so on. One of the things UCD students' union again said this morning is we need some minimum protections for people in licensee arrangements who are facing short notice evictions and all sorts of things, and who have no rights and protections whatsoever. The students' union representatives also asked to meet not just the Minister but the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy O'Brien, given that many students are affected by that wider rental accommodation and housing crisis, to address the issues students are facing.
I have had a number of engagements with UCD students' union. I have no issue meeting with that body. I will certainly ask the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to meet with those students also. I am sure he will have no issue doing so either.
The reference to state aid rules related to the fact that private developers could say they can build accommodation too. I am trying to change the model. I genuinely believe we need to have more publicly funded institutions owning their own accommodation. I really believe that. To be quite honest, during the Covid pandemic, we saw the benefit of having people in college-owned student accommodation when they got refunds quicker, in some cases, than those who were not. We need to build more college-owned student accommodation. In a housing emergency, it is not acceptable that we have publicly owned land with planning permissions that have not been activated. We have activated three of them this week. Five were not activated but we activated three of them. Two of them are large, UCD and Dublin City University. They are genuinely engaging very constructively, for which I thank them, and we are trying to find a way forward.
We have a new policy framework. We can rightly debate the details of it but the approach we are now taking to student accommodation is different and better. It is overdue but it will make a real difference.
Questions Nos. 97 to 99, inclusive, taken with Written Answers.
Education and Training Boards
Fergus O'Dowd
Question:100. Deputy Fergus O'Dowd asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science his views with respect to the campaign for better working conditions and pay led by personal assistants working in institutes for further education; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59672/22]
This question relates to the campaign for better pay and working conditions led by personal assistants who work in institutes for further education. They are difficult to recruit and their payments vary depending on the education and training board, ETB, from which they get money. SOLAS provides the overall funding. We need a proper career structure to ensure students with disabilities can participate fully in every aspect of third level education. They cannot do that at present. The people who help them are badly paid.
I thank the Deputy for raising this matter with me and for raising it on one of my many visits in recent weeks to Drogheda and Dundalk, where the ETB has highlighted this as an important matter. The Deputy and I both want to create an education system that is truly inclusive and that allows everyone to reach their full potential no matter what their background is or whether they have a disability.
Some good things are in place around funds for students with disabilities. We have had new initiatives to support autistic students, which we discussed earlier, but we need to do more. The fund for students with disabilities provides funding to higher and further education institutions for the delivery of services and supports for students with disabilities. Within the further education and training sector, SOLAS administers the funding to each of the ETBs, which independently manage the allocation to post-leaving certificate centre providers for services and accommodations required to support students with disabilities.
That fund can be used to provide a wide range of supports, including non-medical helpers, such as personal assistants, which is the issue the Deputy raised. I understand some ETBs engage external service providers to provide the personal assistant service while other ETBs directly employ personal assistants. There is not one model in that regard. As set out in the SOLAS fund for students with disabilities guidelines, in cases where the ETB directly employs personnel to deliver supports, the contractual relationship is strictly between that employee and the ETB or the local college. As such, the terms and conditions of employment for personal assistants are a matter for the ETB.
However, I am aware claims are being made by personal assistants directly employed by the ETBs and by Fórsa, their union, for improved terms and conditions for these workers who are currently paid on an hourly rate basis. I understand Fórsa has tabled the matter for discussion at the ETB industrial relations, IR, forum, which deals with the ETB sector. I believe a meeting regarding that is due to take place this month. On top of that, my officials are also meeting with Fórsa on the matter. I assure the Deputy there has been a lot of engagement to try to see if there is a way forward.
I congratulate the Minister on his commitment, vitality and the way he is changing things. This is a huge area where, as he said, there needs to be a levelling of the playing pitch for people with disabilities. One of the issues we need to determine is how many people, on average, need assistance. We need to make sure there are whole-time equivalent jobs for that. Colleges vary in size but it is not acceptable that somebody who is the arms and legs of somebody with a disability, who could be a notetaker, or who helps them with their food and to negotiate their social life, is paid by the hour and, therefore, does not have any employment during the holiday period other than to go to a social welfare office.
I accept and acknowledge what the Minister said. I agree it is a matter for negotiation. We need one national pay scale. We need these jobs to be permanent, whole-time and pensionable because this will ensure people with disabilities will get their full access, be able to fulfil in every possible way their intellectual capacity and their ability to do their jobs into the future, and live a normal and full life as best they can. I welcome the support I received from my Sinn Féin colleague, Deputy Ó Murchú, who will ask a supplementary question. I will allow him to do so this time.
I thank Deputy O'Dowd. According to my note, 77 personal assistants are directly employed by the ETBs. I am open to correction on this but the note also indicates, and the information available to me suggests, that the majority of personal assistants are employed externally and not directly by ETBs. However, 77 are directly employed by ETBs. The figure for the Louth-Meath ETB in the Deputy's area is 15. That gives a context to all this because 3,829 students in 2021 accessed the fund for students with disabilities. A total of 2,165 of them used the fund for academic and learning support, 636 for assistive technologies, equipment and software, 26 for deaf supports, 563 for exam supports, 399 for non-medical helpers, which could be personal assistants, 34 for transport supports and six for work placements.
I welcome those statistics. The Minister knows the issue. I know he is fighting for students with disabilities and that he will do his very best. I am very happy with his response.
We also need to address the issue of the percentage of people with disabilities who are employed nationally in State and semi-State bodies. It is a big issue. There was a quota that was very low. We should look at increasing that quota to allow full participation in our society by all people with disabilities, in addition to the supports that now need to be put in place permanently in order that the best people can get the best results and the best support possible for a wage they can live on and can stand over in their future lives.
I thank Deputy O'Dowd for tabling this question. I thank the Minister for his interaction on this particular issue. The Minister said there is sometimes a cliff edge in respect of adult disability services. That is the piece that needs to be fixed. We all know the working conditions and the payments these PAs are getting are insufficient. A number of them who have contacted Deputies have left that work. These are people who are committed to facilitating people with disabilities. It is vital we conduct the assessment of needs required to ensure we can give people decent pay and conditions. Fórsa is talking about a possible school secretaries-type solution.
The ETB IR meeting is on 15 December. I am told the Minister's Department is looking for a meeting with Fórsa on the week of 12 December. I ask that that meeting takes place as quickly as possible, followed by a meeting with the PAs. I ask him to come back with that timeline. The PAs are also somewhat worried there will be a change at Cabinet level that could impact on this.
They are not the only ones. I thank Deputies Ó Murchú and O'Dowd for raising this important issue. Without wanting to stray into the industrial relations, IR, space because of the proximity between this discussion and those discussions that will take place at the IR forum, I acknowledge on the record of the Dáil the excellent work done by personal assistants, PAs. Those are not platitudes; I know from travelling around the country, from talking to students and from meeting PAs that there are people in further education today who simply would not be there and reach their full potential without the intervention of the PAs. Therefore, I hope the forum, discussion and engagement go well. I have given a commitment to meeting a delegation of PAs with the Deputy after that process and I am happy to do that.
On Deputy O'Dowd's point about employment, I want to talk about this because we are changing our approach to our new national access plan. Until now we have only measured access. Access is important and getting someone in the door is a big step forward. What happens after a student with a disability gets into college? What happens in terms of the workforce after they graduate from the college? The new national access plan, which we published in recent months, will monitor all of the journey and progression. That will shine a light on the work that needs to be done around education resulting in employment for a person with a disability.
Questions Nos. 101 to 103, inclusive, taken with Written Answers.
Further and Higher Education
Alan Dillon
Question:104. Deputy Alan Dillon asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if he will provide an update surrounding recent announcements on the new further education and training, FET, colleges of the future; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59840/22]
Will the Minister provide an update on the recent announcements around the new FET colleges of the future?
I am always delighted to provide Deputy Dillon with an update but I do not have a huge amount of an update since we last met on Monday in Castlebar. That was a good day and we had the clear decision that Castlebar, County Mayo, will be the home of a new further education college of the future, which we call a FET college of the future. What that means to people in Castlebar and Mayo is that this is one of the ten locations throughout the country that will be developed as a major hub of FET. I was pleased to be in Castlebar and I commend Michael Murphy, the principal of Mayo College of Further Education and Training, the CEO of Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board, the director of further education, and all those working so hard in the ETB.
There is great stuff going on in Castlebar in grossly inadequate facilities. That is clear and I saw that when we visited a number of months ago. I thank and congratulate the ETB for putting in a good submission and being chosen as one of the ten FET colleges of the future. This will mean a variety of things. It will effectively mean there will be better and more modern conditions for FET in Castlebar in Mayo and that the Castlebar campus of Mayo College of Further Education and Training can lead on a number of new apprenticeship programmes. Programmes are being developed in the area of cybersecurity, digital media and immersive technologies, and I am looking forward to the ETB, SOLAS and my Department working intensively to take this project forward.
These are massive projects and they are not ones that are delivered quickly. I have been clear about that and I was clear about that in Mayo the other day. However, they are projects that, when in place, will transform the offering for FET. When you look at Castlebar and the fact that you have the university campus, the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, coupled with what will be a state-of-the-art FET college and facility, that will be quite an ecosystem for meeting the skills needs of Castlebar and the north west.
I publicly thank the Minister for coming to Castlebar earlier this week to deliver the fantastic news on the Mayo College of Further Education and Training. This will be a multimillion euro project for County Mayo and Castlebar. It will strengthen our appeal in the future economic outlook and will invest in FET. This significant capital investment will transform that campus. We have an excellent team under Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB, and its executive management is passionate about delivering the best of courses that are of high quality in areas such as digital media, cybersecurity and immersive technology. These are the technologies of the future and we want to be at the forefront of this. I welcome the centre of excellence that will be established under the FET model in Castlebar. I understand the next stage is to proceed to the preliminary business case. I ask the Minister for a timeline on the development of this in the weeks and months ahead.
The first ten locations are in the process of being announced. We are up to about five or six locations and all ten will have been announced within the next week. What then has to happen is all ten need to work intensively with SOLAS, their ETB and my Department to prepare the next phase. These are multimillion euro projects and this is a scale of investment in FET we simply have not seen before. We need to be sure they can be compliant with public spending codes and we need to tease through the detail of the proposals they have submitted. I would imagine that a lot of 2023 will be taken up with that sort of work, including planning, preparation and compliance with public spending codes. The exact pace of development for each of them will depend on how much work is done on the ground locally and on how quickly that is done. I say that while being conscious - and they reminded us of this on Monday - that a lot of work has already been done on this in Castlebar. Which of the ten projects moves first and the pace at which they move will remain dependent on that level of work.
We have Mayo College of Further Education and Training progressing with this capital development on the back of the establishment of the ATU in Mayo, which is designated for Castlebar. We are offering postgraduate courses with other disciplines, ranging from outdoor education to, as we mentioned previously, digital media and cybersecurity. This means there is a university campus along with an FET college. We have approximately 900 students in the university and we have up to 700 students in the FET college.
We have a severe shortage of student accommodation. What plans are in place to develop accommodation for students in cities and towns like Castlebar into the future? Would the Minister be willing to work with the management of the ATU in Castlebar and Mayo College of Further Education and Training to provide solutions to this difficult problem for our young people? I know an application will be submitted from the management of the ATU and Mayo County Council on the military barracks. This would be an important step forward in a solution to the shortage of student accommodation.
I was delighted to see the Minister in Mayo on Monday. As the Minister did, I commend and acknowledge all the work that has been done there by the project team, particularly by Michael Murphy and Tom Grady from Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB. They have wanted this and worked on it for so many years and it is a long-term project. I was also delighted to see Paddy McGuinness there, who has done so much for further education in Mayo. In the original Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology and everything else, he was a real visionary in his time and I know he got satisfaction from that. I am concerned about the timelines and I am also concerned about people's expectations when announcements are made and when people think it is going to happen. We are probably realistically talking about a five to six-year project. I cannot see students being on the seats in there before 2027. However, it is a start and it shows intent on what needs to happen and what can happen with the ATU in Castlebar as well.
I am not in any way concerned about the timelines but it is important to be upfront and blunt about them, which I have been in every visit I have made to a location that has been chosen as an FET college of the future. These are multi-year projects. I cannot say whether it will be four, five or six years but that is the range of years we are talking about. People in Castlebar and Mayo will see progress and there will be an ability to provide regular updates and the like. I, too, pay tribute to Paddy McGuinness who has returned to college and is undertaking a course there.
He has.
I send him all our best wishes. On student accommodation, I spoke to the president of the ATU, Orla Flynn, and the chair of the governing authority, Maura McNally, on this as recently as Monday. Before I was in Castlebar I met them in Galway. It is clear as a result of the Government decision yesterday that technological universities can and should prepare to submit plans for student accommodation in 2023. On Tuesday we allocated €1 million to the technological universities to bring in the capacity for any expertise they may need to develop those plans. I look forward to receiving an application from the ATU in 2023 for student accommodation.
Further and Higher Education
Bernard Durkan
Question:105. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the extent to which he continues to identify and meet the demand in the higher education sector, with particular reference to identification of the areas now most urgently requiring employees; if he is satisfied that a sufficient supply of appropriately qualified graduates continues to be available; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59782/22]
I have a continued interest in the degree to which the Minister can liaise on the various opportunities that exist in industry and throughout the workplace with a view to meeting the most urgently known requirements and given that almost everybody has signs up inviting potential employees to apply.
I thank Deputy Durkan for raising this matter. One of the big things my Department is trying to do is not just to replicate the work that would have been done by the Department of Education previously but to be a Department that interacts between further and higher education and industry.
We do this through the regional skills forums, which we have in every region. These involve representatives of businesses, universities, colleges and the education and training boards. These forums meet, plan and map out what is required in each area. Even in a country the geographic size of Ireland, I am always surprised by the diversity of the regions in terms of the skills existing in each. My Department, therefore, is focused on aligning planning in the higher education sector with the skills needs of our country. As the Deputy knows and advocates for, these skills needs are economic and social. When we look at our public services as well, we must ensure that we are producing enough graduates. We just carried out a mapping exercise asking the sector what more can be done in medicine, nursing and veterinary medicine. I am really excited to see a pipeline of rich ideas and innovative ways of providing courses coming back as a result of that endeavour.
We have a National Skills Council and, within its remit, it advises on the prioritisation of identified skills needs and how to secure delivery of those needs. Key, high-level trends identified by the National Skills Council include automation, digitalisation, digital literacy and transversal skills. Information on these trends is then used to formulate our skills strategies and initiatives such as the National Skills Strategy 2025, Technology Skills 2022, Springboard+ and the human capital initiative, where we provide funding to provide programmes in certain areas.
In May, I launched an initiative called Funding the Future. It provides the policy basis for the vision and direction of higher education funding in a sustainable way. A key element of this policy framework is a focus on driving skills and engagement, with a particular focus on essential public services, as I referred to. Through this policy framework, my Department and the HEA will strengthen this planning provision and alignment with the skills needs of the education sector that the Deputy is rightly highlighting.
I compliment the Minister on his efforts in this area. I wish to inquire further as to the degree to which the Minister's Department continues to identify the particular weaknesses now showing up in almost every category of employment, including the teaching, medical, nursing and building professions. The technical and academic requirements are many and varied now. I am inquiring as to whether the Minister thinks there is a need for an augmentation of contact with those who have these vacancies available to bring the potential employees face to face with these parties.
I think there is and this is certainly an area we are looking at. We are working with the Department of Social Protection. For example, in the area of construction, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and I have partnered with the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, to do exactly as the Deputy said in respect of identifying people who may be seeking employment and wishing to be employed and to be able to team them up where there are vacancies in the economy. I refer in particular to the area of construction, where we know we cannot build enough homes fast enough. There is real pressure in this area.
As the Deputy will know, some of these challenges arise from living in a country with full employment. I saw figures today showing that unemployment here now stood at below 4.5%. I think it is 4.4%. This is a long way from when the Deputy and I entered a Government led by former Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, in 2011. This shows the journey the country has been on and the bounce back that the economy has seen from an employment perspective, despite shutdowns, pandemics, the impact of Brexit and war, and the hugely positive impact of employment in the economy in Ireland. There is also a broader issue around adversity and showing our young people a variety of ways of getting a career, including through apprenticeships and further education and training.
I bring to the attention of the Minister that many refugees coming into the country have particular skills that are in short supply in the home market. These people are ready and willing to work. Every effort should be made to ensure they have this opportunity and that they are not diverted in any way by those who seek to protest, for one reason or another, on the basis of their right to protest. The right to protest should never undermine the right of people to go about their business. I refer especially to the right to protest in such a way as to make it impossible for other people to go about their business.
On this point, I ask the Minister to look at the situation of part-time students and the support we do not give them. At 19%, we are below the OECD average of 22% for part-time students. In the review of SUSI, we saw that 47% of postgraduates and 25% of undergraduates said they would consider going back to study if they had the financial support to do that. This is a matter we must seriously evaluate in respect of what supports we provide, the free fees initiative and the SUSI eligibility rules for part-time students. I ask the Minister to undertake this work.
I will do that and, indeed, we are doing that. Professor Tom Collins is heading a working group under the Funding the Future framework specifically looking at part-time study and eligibility and access concerning student supports. I agree with the Deputy, and I hope we can find a way forward in 2023 on the issue of SUSI. I will keep in touch with the Deputy in this regard.
Turning to the question from Deputy Durkan, I am pleased our education system has worked to accommodate and facilitate people fleeing a war in the largest humanitarian crisis of our lifetimes. Approximately 15,000 people from Ukraine in Ireland are accessing further education and training, with around 500 accessing higher education. I am very proud to be a Minister of a sector that has worked to make these people feel welcome and to support them in ensuring that Putin's ambition of depriving the next generations of Ukrainians of the education and skills they will need to rebuild their country cannot be fulfilled. We will always continue to stand with Ukraine and to support that country.
Questions Nos. 106 to 109, inclusive, taken with Written Answers.
Third Level Education
Colm Burke
Question:110. Deputy Colm Burke asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if he will provide an update on the National Access Plan 2022-2028; the progress that has been made to date since the plan was implemented; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59856/22]
This question is to ask the Minister if he will provide an update on the National Access Plan 2022-2028, the progress made to date since the plan was implemented and if he will make a statement on this matter.
I was pleased to launch the new national access plan on 31 August 2022. This plan is genuinely the most ambitious vision we have ever set out for an inclusive and diverse higher education sector. It builds on the real and substantial progress made through the implementation of previous plans. I thank all those who worked so hard to make this a reality. It also recognises, however, that there are clearly significant barriers still existing for many people in accessing higher education and we must break them down. This plan will continue to target and support students who are socioeconomically disadvantaged, students with disabilities and students from the Irish Traveller community. Critically, however, within these three core groups, the plan has identified specific cohorts of students who are particularly under-represented or marginalised to try to make progress in this regard. This includes students and mature students from disadvantaged areas; students with intellectual disabilities, whom I do not think had ever got enough attention in this area before; members of the Roma community; those who have experience of the care system - those children who have accessed care face a very immediate cliff edge and we need specific supports for them - of homelessness and of the criminal justice system; second-chance mature students, migrants and refugees; students who are survivors of domestic violence and students who are carers.
As the Deputy may have heard me say, the plan also moves beyond just a focus on access. It is intended to measure not just if people got inside the doors of colleges but what happened once they were inside. Were they able to participate fully? Did they get a meaningful education? Did they graduate and go on to employment? The plan will track the full education journey and it focuses as much on students' participation and ultimate success as it does on access. This shifts the focus from the point of entry to what makes an inclusive learning environment and what supports are required for students throughout their learning journey.
My Department is responsible for driving implementation of the plan, working in close collaboration with the HEA. A new steering group has been established to support implementation and this will include representatives of priority groups, as well as institutions and all relevant Departments. The first meeting of the group is planned to happen before the end of this year. Implementation of the national access plan is supported by a dedicated funding programme. As the Deputy will be aware, I put new funding streams in place for students with intellectual disabilities and autistic students.
Regarding socially disadvantaged areas, looking at the work done in the past ten to 15 years, have we identified why we have made very little progress in many of these areas? Do we need to focus at an earlier stage, and I am even talking about primary-school level, on starting people off on the process of long-term ambition in education? Are we doing enough in this regard to encourage people to move from first level to second level and then, hopefully, on to third level? When the Minister was in Cork last week, he visited one of the schools in respect of which he placed a major emphasis on apprenticeships. This is important as well. We must, however, do much more in socially disadvantaged areas in particular. How are we going to monitor this progress?
The Deputy is entirely right. Issues around access and disadvantage start much earlier than when people reach the age to attend third level. This is why the national access and inclusion plan engages with other Departments, including the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Education and Social Protection to look at barriers that people can encounter earlier in life and to try to break these down.
I enjoyed my visit to North Presentation Secondary School with the Deputy. It is so important that we get into schools, talk to students and change the mind set around third-level options to include a much broader conversation on apprenticeships, traineeships, further education and training, and the technological universities, not that narrow, sometimes elitist view as to what third-level education can be.
I will certainly keep in touch with Deputy Colm Burke and maybe send him a detailed note on how we are interacting to try to break down barriers earlier in the cycle.
Is féidir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scríofa ar
www.oireachtas.ie
.
Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.