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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 2024

General Scheme of the Employment (Restriction of Certain Mandatory Retirement Ages) Bill 2024: Discussion

Members who are participating remotely need to do so from within the Leinster House complex only. No apologies have been received today so far.

We are dealing with pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the employment (restriction of certain mandatory retirement ages) Bill 2024. The objective of the Bill is to align mandatory retirement ages in existing and future employment contracts with the State pension age. The aim of the measure is to restrict the enforceability of mandatory clauses in employment contracts where the employee wishes to continue in employment. As recommended by the Pensions Commission, this will deliver a statutory provision which will allow, but in no way compel, an employee to stay in employment until the State pension age.

I am pleased we have the opportunity to consider these matters further with the following representatives: from Age Action, Ms Mary Murphy, research officer, and Dr. Nat O’Connor, senior public affairs and policy specialist; from the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament, Mr. Pat Mellon, chief executive officer; and from the Retirement Planning Council of Ireland, Ms Laura Farrell, chief executive officer, and Mr. Declan Lawlor, programme leader.

Before we start, as I always do, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of the matter, I now invite Ms Murphy to make her opening remarks on behalf of Age Action.

Ms Mary Murphy

We are grateful for the invitation to present to the committee. At Age Action, we feel very strongly about the issue of mandatory retirement. It is wrong in principle and deeply unfair. At least four countries, Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, have abolished mandatory retirement and have enjoyed productive, diverse workplaces for decades. We are in no doubt, from a human rights and equality perspective and from an economic perspective, that mandatory retirement should be abolished.

I will not repeat the detail of our earlier written submission to the committee, but our main concerns can be summarised in five points. First, mandatory retirement normalises ageism on a societal level. It does so by institutionalising stereotypes as reasonable guidance for decision-making, and also by further excluding older persons from society and preventing them from challenging the ageist assumptions made about them. In 2021, the World Health Organization recognised the practice as ageist in a report in which it outlined the severe effects of ageism.

Second, mandatory retirement excludes older workers from normal managerial processes.

Workers should not lose out on performance reviews and training by virtue of their age. It is not the purpose of the law to protect employers from treating their workers as adults and having difficult conversations with them, where necessary.

Third, we estimate that up to 4,000 people may experience mandatory retirement at age 65 every year. In addition, others are forced to retire at different ages.

Fourth, age is not a reliable predictor of capacity. Where decline does occur, it can be offset by the strengths older workers have often accrued, for example in terms of experience, stress management, loyalty and intrinsic motivation to work.

The differences within groups are often far more pronounced than the differences between groups but a culture of mandatory retirement ignores the diversity among older workers. The onus should be on employers to demonstrate performance issues, not a blanket assumption of incapacity to work at age 65 or age 66. Research clearly shows that mandatory retirement has deeply negative effects. The level of control a person feels over their decision to retire is the key predictor of their post-retirement well-being, both in the short and long term. It influences subjective feelings of happiness, mental health, life satisfaction, self-reported health status, dietary habits, marital satisfaction, self-efficacy and income adequacy in retirement, as well as resilience to adverse life events that may follow retirement. By forcing people to give up work, older persons earn less, pay less tax and draw down more support from the Department of Social Protection. That is a loss of skills and experience in the economy, and a bad deal for public finances in the context of an ageing population that the Department of Finance has identified as one of the four key challenges the State faces.

In 2006, the OECD recommended the abolition of mandatory retirement in Ireland, noting that the commonplace practice was inconsistent with strategies to remove obstacles to working in older age. The measures proposed by the employment (restriction of certain mandatory retirement ages) Bill 2024 retain the fundamental ageism that is inherent in mandatory retirement. In brief, the Bill proposes to replace the age of 65 or younger with the "pensionable age", meaning the first age at which a person could access the State pension. This is defined in the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 as currently meaning the age of 66. The words "first age" imply that an employer will be able to force the retirement of a worker at age 66 even if that worker wants to avail of the new option to defer access to the State pension, which can be done up to age 70.

The provision in the proposed Bill to require workers to give three months’ advance written notice to their employer is onerous on the worker. Some may be given verbal assurances that they will be kept on, or they might assume it. Others are likely to be simply unaware of this legal provision and will not benefit from it. This is especially likely for workers who are migrants or those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Crucially, the Bill does not in fact prevent mandatory retirement at the age of 65 or below; it just changes the requirements the employer must meet. It is not clear that this will even narrow the circumstances in which it can occur, or create any impediment for employers.

The three options considered in the Bill’s regulatory impact assessment are insufficient. The assessment should have considered the Government's aim of encouraging longer working lives, as well as explicitly addressing the option of deferring the State pension. The assessment should have considered abolition of mandatory retirement. Moreover, the assessment's analysis of the three options is silent on rights and the deep impact on people made to give up work. With reference to every Department's public sector equality and human rights duty, the assessment should have considered the human rights impact of the proposed law.

At the most recent general election, 13 TDs aged 65 or older were elected. From Age Action’s perspective, it is great to have a diversity of ages, from 22 to 74, represented in the Dáil, and it is no surprise to us that people in their late 60s and 70s are well capable of the hard work involved in being a TD. During the Thirty-third Dáil, another 12 TDs reached their 65th birthdays. Could you imagine the disruption to the work of the Dáil if that had led to 12 mandatory by-elections? TDs do not face mandatory retirement, however, and it would be wrong for the Dáil to pass a new law that enforces one retirement rule for TDs and another rule for low-paid workers.

Age Action has a simple message for the committee: follow the examples of Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and ban mandatory retirement.

Mr. Pat Mellon

The Irish Senior Citizens Parliament offers a strong, unified voice representing the needs and rights of older people at local, national and European levels. Our aim is to influence policy and decisions that affect the lives of older people. We seek to enable and encourage older people to self-advocate and to build capacity and confidence to speak for themselves on all issues. Our vision is an Ireland where older people are valued as equal citizens, can enjoy the full protection of their human rights and are full and active participants in society.

The Irish Senior Citizens Parliament thanks the Oireachtas committee for the opportunity to engage and outline our views on the pre-legislative scrutiny of the employment Bill 2024. We met a cohort of our members to listen to their views on this key issue and the following content is the result of that discussion.

The Irish Senior Citizens Parliament has at the core of its work the issue of equality and rights for older people. We work to ensure the implementation of policy commitments pertinent to ageing and older people. A fundamental element of this relates to ensuring our members and older people generally have security of income in their older years. Central to this is the choice to work up until and beyond the State pension age. One person said:

I really resented being told "I was too old to continue working" it also made me feel useless. One day I was senior member of my firm, offering key value and expertise, the next I was out, all because of by birthday and age.

The current system whereby employers can and do enforce retirement ages into contracts prior to the State pension age needs to change. It is an ageist and discriminatory practice. This is particularly relevant given that we will have a population with 1.5 million people over 65 years and older by 2051. That figure is from a Central Statistics Office report from 2022. We are also seeing that age discrimination cases are on the rise. Not only do employers need to address age inequality but they also need to create age-friendly workplaces.

We believe strongly in the rights of older people to continue to contribute to society in all areas, including choice regarding their working life. In the past few years, we have worked with many retired worker-staff associations whose members have similar experiences and concerns relating directly to their date and age of retirement and the lack of clarity relating to legal age for retirement. Currently, people who had to retire when they reached the age of 65 must seek social welfare benefit payment until they reach the age of 66 and cannot get the State pension or avail of supplementary benefits. Breda, one of our members, said:

I am at a loss to understand with no legal age for retirement how I was told 65 was the magic number. I wanted and was more than able to continue, no one can explain this to me.

The Irish Senior Citizens Parliament believes strongly in the right of older people to choose their retirement age. For some, having entered the workplace in their teens and into work requiring physical labour, their capacity to continue working may be beyond their physical health. We believe this needs further debate and discussion and a more nuanced approach than the current system. Others are more than able and capable of continuing to work beyond 66 and would wish to do so for a variety reasons, some of which relate to financial security. Having the option to continue to work longer and pay into their pension, both State and occupational, would be welcomed.

A key factor for the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament is the opportunity of sending a message that older people have a lot of experience and knowledge that do not cease to exist at 66 years of age. They can and do offer a genuine contribution that enhances and supports wider society.

We again thank members for their time.

Ms Laura Farrell

The Retirement Planning Council of Ireland thanks the committee for the invitation. The council was established in 1974. It is a company limited by guarantee and is registered with the Charities Regulatory Authority. The council is not-for-profit, wholly independent of all financial institutions and managed by a voluntary board of directors. The company receives no Government support and relies entirely on the fees we charge employers for sending their employees on our pre-retirement programmes.

We are the country’s leading provider of support, information and guidance to people on the glide path to retirement. Our main activity is the delivery of a two-day pre-retirement course covering a range of financial and lifestyle issues that are likely to impact all retirees. These courses are delivered by industry experts, most of whom are retired from full-time work themselves. The courses are run in Dublin and in various locations around the country. In 2023, the council delivered courses to more than 3,000 retirees.

As a not-for-profit organisation, we must have a full understanding of the needs, requirements, expectations and concerns of our attendees. We carry out regular post-course surveys with our attendees which provide valuable insights and help inform us as an organisation. All course attendees are given access to our specialists for assistance with any retirement issues that may arise at any time in their future.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

Over the past two years or so, one of the issues that came to the fore at our courses has been the gap between the age at which most people retire, which is still 65, and the age at which they become entitled to the State retirement pension. Currently, in the private sector at least, most employees who are members of an occupational pension scheme are required to retire on the scheme's nominated retirement age, which is typically still 65. However, A-class PRSI contributors only become entitled to the State pension at the age of 66. There have been recommendations in the past to increase that retirement age to 67 and further, which may or may not go ahead.

Currently, employees can request an extension of their contract of employment but effectively the employer is not obliged to agree to such an extension. If forced to retire at the age of 65, the employee can apply for the benefit payment for 65-year-olds. However, there are two issues with this particular benefit. First, the amount of payment is equivalent to jobseeker's benefit, which is approximately €35 per week less than the State pension. In the case of a couple, if one partner is a dependent spouse, the difference between the two payments is about €140 per week because the additional payment for a dependent spouse under jobseeker's benefit is much less than it is under the State retirement pension.

Private sector pension schemes do not typically offer the so-called supplementary pension, a common feature in public sector schemes. As such, for lower paid employees the lower payment for 12 months can represent a significant financial challenge. For employees who are not members of an occupational pension scheme, the income shortfall, even for 12 months, can be even more challenging.

The second issue is that the qualification rules for retirement in relation to PRSI contributions conditions are overcomplicated, particularly for employees who retire prior to the age of 65. This is certainly a source of confusion for many of the individuals who attend our courses. It is not simply the case that everybody will get the benefit payment for 65-year-olds when they reach the age of 65. The proposed changes, whereby employees will have the option to insist on remaining in employment until reaching the qualifying age for the State pension, will certainly be welcomed by many. Based on our experience, we expect that some employees will want to take advantage of such a change, while others may still opt to retire at the nominated retirement age, even if it involves accepting a lower payment for 12 months. Under this legislation, at least the option will be with the employee.

As we point out on our courses, one of the more significant changes that has happened to the current generation of retirees is the increase in life expectancy over the past couple of decades. The average life expectancy for a male retiring at 65 is now about 20 years and for women, it is about 23 years. This represents an increase of roughly 60% over the past 40 to 50 years. Combined with improved health in retirement, this means that most retirees have a more positive outlook as they face into their retirement years. However, being financially secure is a critical element of retirement planning. Clarity around the integration of employment regulations and social welfare benefits is therefore essential. We carry out regular surveys, as referred to by Ms Farrell, and in one of our recent surveys some 68% of female respondents said they would be heavily reliant on the State pension when they retire, as opposed to 32% of male respondents. Some 60% of female respondents indicated they would consider working past the age of 65 compared with 40% of male respondents.

Retirement is a significant milestone in a person's working life. Findings from the survey demonstrate there is a pension disparity between men and women at retirement. The Retirement Planning Council of Ireland therefore supports the proposed changes and looks forward to future changes and social innovations that will help people to remain healthy and productive over the course of longer lives.

I thank Mr. Lawlor and Ms Farrell. I now invite members to discuss this issue with the representatives. I remind anyone who is joining remotely to use the raise hand function and take it down when finished.

I thank the witnesses for the evidence they have given us.

From the start, I will say that while I can follow the meeting on the monitor, I will have to go because I have an appointment with a radio station in about half an hour. I apologise for that. I will get back if I can. I really welcome this discussion. The abolition of mandatory retirement is a very long-standing Sinn Féin policy. We have been campaigning in this space for well over a decade. I brought forward legislation that would have the same effect as this Bill. To be fair, it matters not to me where the legislation comes from as long as it gets passed.

While I am not sure it is shared by any of the other parties, we have a fundamental belief that workers at the age of 65 should have the choice to continue working if they are able. I hate using that term. When you are 64 years and 364 days, you do not have to check whether you are able for work. You just get up, get out and do it. However, there is an assumption that, at 65, you have to check if you are able. It is the difference between falling over and having a fall, is it not? I do not know at what point that happens. I use the caveat "if they are able" because that is the general parlance used. We believe that workers should have that choice at the age of 65, which may suit some people who work on their feet all day, perhaps in hairdressing, construction or certain areas of healthcare. I represented healthcare workers for years and know they have that calendar in their head and are watching the date, ready to go out the door. That is what they want. However, others want to be able to work on.

It is very welcome that we are having this discussion. It is great. I was checking back over previous debates in the Dáil and Deputy Carroll MacNeill, who is still a junior Minister, said that there is no mandatory retirement age but that is, of course, nonsense because, in real life, there is for many workers. It is good that the Government is now recognising that there is a mandatory retirement age. It is also good that other parties are recognising that making people work compulsorily until the age of 67 or 68 is not fair and that denying them their pension is equally not fair.

The figures presented by the Retirement Planning Council of Ireland show that 60% of women and 40% of men want the option to work on. I will ask everyone the following question. In the case of those figures and that 60% of women, is the desire to continue to work on linked only to the need to get extra stamps? Is there a difference because there is a fairly stark difference between 60% of women and 40% of men? Is that because men generally do not take time out for caring responsibilities, although that is not true across the board? Is it because men have their stamps and can go? Do the witnesses know the reason? I would be grateful if they could offer a view on that.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

From the experience of running our courses, I believe there are two aspects to it. One is the purely financial piece, that is, that people will suffer a loss of income for a 12-month period. It could also be that people might not be entitled to a full State pension when they get to 66. People get credits for years they are out of the workforce minding children and so on under the homemaker's scheme so that should be okay. While I have no evidence for this, I suspect it may be the case that the disparity between males and females could be caused by a lower percentage of females being members of occupational pension schemes because they have worked in occupations that historically have not provided an occupational pension. I refer to the service industries, retail and so on. That may be a factor in the difference between numbers for males and females.

Mr. Pat Mellon

One of the things that we sometimes forget is that, with regard to the non-contributory pension, females may have been working at home for periods of time and may not have the full contributions or a pension. They are means-tested on the basis of part of their partners' assets. They want independence. It could be their freedom. It is their right. It is like that. They may have come back to work late in life and want to get more contributions. It is also about independence and the right to choose. We consistently find that people are being told they are not fit to work or that they cannot be employed. Women are oftentimes regarded as an appendage to the assets of their husbands, which is not right.

That is actually the word a woman in exactly that situation used with me. Her husband was sitting beside her in one of my advice clinics and she said, "I am not an appendage to my husband. I have lived my own life." Only as she approached the retirement age did she-----

Mr. Pat Mellon

Realise.

-----realise - exactly - what had happened because she had been working in the home. It was interesting Mr. Mellon used the exact words she used. She said, "I am not an appendage."

Dr. Nat O'Connor

On the gender pay gap, a recent report published by the ESRI found a 35% pension gap between the incomes of women and men in retirement. That would certainly help explain why more women in this survey might be willing to work longer - because of that gap. However, according to the statistics for those aged 66 and older who are at work, they are disproportionately men. I think it is three to one men. It tends to be people in self-employment, farmers and other professions where it tends to be men. At the same time, however, women over the age of 66 are very disproportionately involved in unpaid care work, for which they do not get any further credits towards a State pension. There are different gender effects happening there.

The other issue I will point out as regards this legislation is that it provides for a marginal improvement. In 2006, when the OECD looked at this situation, Ireland was the only country that did not regulate private contracts in respect of mandatory retirement, and that remains the case. Other countries have a minimum age that can be allowed in private contracts. What the Bill before the committee will do is essentially move it from 65 years to 66, which would be an improvement because it would align with the State pension but not a great improvement. As my colleague Ms Murphy said, there are loopholes in the law that would allow an employer to still let an employee go at 65, and it is onerous on the worker to have to write in. We are therefore not greatly in favour of this law. We would like to see a much stronger law that will ban mandatory retirement, to be clear on that.

To be clear on our position, as I said, I welcome the fact that we are having the conversation. I had introduced legislation, as I am sure Dr. O'Connor will be aware, which would have done exactly what he has referred to and would have been fair, or tried in some way to undo the grave unfairness that was done during the 2011-13 period, particularly to older workers and people who were facing this. I remember it at the time. I was a trade union official. I had a man aged 65 come in to see me and he could not fathom why he had to go down to what he referred to as the labour exchange to sign on the dole. A lot of things need to be undone to support workers as they approach their retirement.

I was very struck by the words of Age Action: "The level of control a person feels over their decision to retire is the key predictor of their post-retirement well-being". That is very powerful. Say, for example, someone is face having to go onto the dole. People know. They have been working all their life. They are not foolish. We can call it anything we like, but they know what the dole is and they know when they have to apply for it. That was a major contributory factor to workers really fearing retirement. There is a poverty element there as well. It is about having that choice that is essential and not having somebody say to you on the day before you get up, you go to work and you are fine and then, the day after, suddenly, bang, you cannot. There needs to be that level of flexibility brought in to give that choice. As regards that sentence, "The level of control a person feels over their decision to retire is the key predictor of their post-retirement well-being", is that the Retirement Planning Council's experience as well?

Ms Laura Farrell

Yes. I know from attending courses myself that a variety of people in the room are there because it is a gift from their employers or they have self-selected to attend, and most people are happy to partake in the programme. There is a little trepidation, but they know that it is about planning for a new future. There are some people in the room who do not want to be there and are kicking and screaming their way to retirement. You can feel it and it is tough.

It is. It is very hard. I was a union official for a couple of years, and in that period in a people's lives there are great differences. Some people absolutely skip into their 60s, are counting down the days and cannot wait to be out the door, and there are others who dread it. They dread the loss of routine and-----

Ms Laura Farrell

Identity.

Yes, but a lot of it is financial. We need to give that option to people to work on should they wish to do so.

Ms Mary Murphy

We know the motivation to remain in work is high. A survey, which includes data from Ireland, found that 30% of people across Europe wanted to stay in work longer than they did. What we find is a great diversity in motivation. It can be a sense of identity, love for the work or financial.

A point we want to flag is that as we advocate for the abolition of mandatory retirement, if we see an increased length in working lives, the State pension needs to be protected as the bedrock of income in older age. People staying at work beyond the traditional State pension age cannot be used as an excuse to weaken or limit the State pension or access to it.

In terms of the negative experience people have around mandatory retirement, we talk to people who are in their 80s and they are well able to conjure up the anger they felt when they were retired at 65 or 66. It really stays with people and has long-lasting ramifications. Long-term studies show that people are negatively impacted by it not just six months afterwards but six and 15 years later.

On the specific issue with 65-year-olds accessing the benefit payment, that is a specific dilemma that emerges from allowing mandatory retirement. It is not the only issue with mandatory retirement. People who are forced to retire by virtue of their age at 67 will still have a really negative experience. It is still ageism, still not evidence-based and still unfair. Law that chooses to focus on the problem of ensuring that mandatory retirement is brought up to the State pension age and ignores all the other problems associated with mandatory retirement is giving tacit approval to the system by allowing it to otherwise continue. It is also giving tacit approval to the ageism that underlies the system.

I agree, which is why I brought forward legislation that would have dealt with the issue.

Head 7 effectively allows an employer to dismiss a worker who has passed a mandatory retirement age clause without any repercussions. I believe that to be fundamentally unfair. Any such decision should be open to challenge. I ask the witnesses for their views on it.

Ms Mary Murphy

I am not convinced that this Bill would even limit the incidence of mandatary retirement and how often it would occur. It just changes the standards employers have to meet. I do not even know if they are harder standards to meet. It individualises the tests that currently exist in the Employment Equality Act. I do not know if that test is harder to meet when it is individualised versus when we are trying to establish it as a class. For this reason, the Bill seems pretty limited because all the problems we have with mandatory retirement will still exist.

Also, when we individualise the logic of mandatory retirement, what we are basically saying is that the standards that have to be met to get rid of an older worker are lower than the standards that have to be met to get rid of someone who is 34 and underperforming. It just means that people aged 66 have weaker employment protections.

Mr. Pat Mellon

When an employer can tell an employee, once he or she has clicked over the 365 days and turned 65, that he or she must retire, that is an element of control. We hear time and again about the issue of coercive control. We would contend that this is coercive control, in that people who are fully employed and on a reasonable income straightaway, at 65, have no say, have their whole life turned upside down and, as the Deputy said, have to go down to the dole office. We feel that is coercive control of people who are aged 65. There is no need in the current climate for people to retire at 65 or to have any mandatory retirement age.

They should have a choice.

Mr. Pat Mellon

It should not be mandatory.

As the Retirement Planning Council of Ireland pointed out, the majority of people retire at 65.

Mr. Pat Mellon

Yes, absolutely.

It is not especially unusual.

Mr. Pat Mellon

The issue is the mandatory element.

It is about having the choice.

Mr. Pat Mellon

Absolutely.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

The issue is choice. One of the difficulties with the current system is that, if someone is forced to retire at 65, he or she can claim the benefit payment for 65-year-olds, but one of its conditions is that he or she has to stop working. Someone cannot work while claiming it. A year later, though, that person can claim the State pension and return to work. For a 12-month period, someone is forced to stop working if he or she has to claim the benefit payment for 65-year-olds. Why is someone suddenly capable of being employed again a year later? It may have more to do with social welfare rules than this particular issue, but the rules around the benefit payment for 65-year-olds – the required number of PRSI contributions and how someone has to have 13 paid contributions in the governing contribution year, which most people do not understand – are overly complex. I would argue for simplification.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and the work they do with older citizens. I am one of those TDs who are of the age mentioned, so I smiled when that was said. All of the by-elections we would have if TDs had to go when they were 65 or 66 would be disruptive.

I will ask a few brief questions of Age Action initially. Ms Murphy stated that the requirement to give three months of advanced written notice was onerous and she spoke about verbal assurances and so on. Will she expand on that point and explain how it might work? If mandatory retirement were gone, such a system would not apply anyway, but Ms Murphy highlighted it in her presentation, so she might expand on it.

Ms Mary Murphy

We are looking for a wholesale abolition, so expanding on this part is getting into the technicalities, but imagine a world where an employer is not allowed to just engage the provision on a mandatory retirement age of 65 in an employee’s contract. The onus should be on that employer to bring the matter to the employee and ask whether he or she is okay with what it says in the contract. If the employee does not want to retire, the employer should not engage the provision or should review it. The process should start with the employer, not the employee. Some people do not know this provision is in their contracts and are taken aback when they are mandatorily retired because they had no warning.

The employer should be keeping an eye on the birth dates of their workers and the engagement process should kick in a little while before the employees reach 65. Of course, I take Age Action’s point about abolishing mandatory requirement anyway.

Ms Murphy spoke about an assessment that should be done under the public sector equality and human rights duty. Will she expand on this point? What would Age Action like to see happening?

Ms Mary Murphy

We position ourselves as a human rights and equality organisation, and there is a great deal of discussion on mandatory retirement that does not have those issues at its centre. There is talk of economic concerns, which are real and a part of the conversation, and convenience or practicalities within the workplace, but people are not talking about the rights of the workers who are being forced out. There are employment rights associated with preserving access and opportunity to work.

It needs to be acknowledged that, if people are forced out of the workplace at 65 years of age, many of them cannot just find another job. For many people in many sectors, it is difficult to get work at that age if they are not staying in their current workplaces. Older people are in jobs they have had for years and are not moving between workplaces. Doing so is quite rare.

We are seeking a better centring of the question of what this is doing for rights and equality. It is fundamentally and undeniably discrimination. It is recognised as discrimination in the Employment Equality Acts. They allow it as an acceptable form of discrimination, but it is discrimination nevertheless. If something is discriminatory, the onus is on the people trying to justify it to offer arguments in its favour. The onus is not on the people opposing it. We need to see a justification for a system that is inherently and formally discriminatory.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

I will add a point. There are new inequities entering the system. If someone is on a public service contract, mandatory retirement is at 70 years of age, but if someone is on a private sector contract, it will be 66 years of age.

That creates a tension there with the Government's proposal that we should encourage longer working lives where people want to. Some people are not affected by mandatory retirement. There is a deep inequity across the board and that should come in. An equality and human rights analysis would have to address those inequities and work one's way through them. It is untenable to build a system based on such inequities.

I know some employers who were seeking out older people because of their experience, especially if they are dealing with customers on a face-to-face basis in various shops, and so forth.

What are the views of the witnesses where somebody reaches a certain stage and age, they cannot continue full-time work but they might be able to do part-time work where they might step down a little bit? That is what I am kind of planning to do. I do not like the word "retirement", by the way, and "changed roles" is perhaps another way of looking at it. We all use the terms "hybrid working" and "working from home". Have the witnesses any views on how we might blend that in if someone has less time in the workplace and has changed roles to something that is slightly less onerous but yet continues to work?

Ms Mary Murphy

Like Mr. Mellon said, we are looking for age-friendly workplaces. What we are talking about is that this is a kind of negative of something which employers should not be able to do with mandatory retirement but, beyond that, there are more positive things we are talking about, which is what employers should be doing to make workplaces more suitable for older workers. When one talks about internal mobility and about flexibility in moving to part-time work in instances like that, this is crucial to the making of these.

Workplaces that are suitable for older persons are suitable for everyone because people throughout their life course may go through periods where they want to work part-time for a bit. Part of why that will occur is because of caring responsibilities where older workers will often take on caring responsibilities at that stage in their lives. Yes, we would very much encourage workplaces to learn to facilitate and to move on that, if someone has been working in a certain role and, for various reasons such as new health concerns emerging or whatever else, they are then not able to complete or feel comfortable with certain responsibilities. There might then be an opportunity to move them to a different kind of role or setting within the workplace.

I thank Ms Murphy for that reply.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

France has brought in a law that allows anybody to move to a four-day week. That helps older workers but also helps people with care responsibilities, often women to help people with disabilities and so on. That has been brought in as a legal right. We could envisage either a right or certainly encouragement from employers to offer that kind of flexibility to certain categories of worker, including older workers. As Ms Murphy said, that kind of flexibility makes a workplace that will work for more people. Ireland has a very low employment rate for people with disabilities and there is a lower female employment rate. That kind of flexibility could help expand the labour market generally.

Some companies are doing that. We visited Amazon recently and we found that it was very flexible from that point of view. Some of the large corporations are seeing the value of that as well.

Mr. Mellon mentioned coercive control. When I was a Minister of State, I brought in the amendment to the domestic violence legislation to make coercive control a criminal offence but I get his analogy.

Mr. Pat Mellon

It was a strong word but it was just-----

Yes, but I know what he was getting at. He also mentioned in his presentation that age discrimination cases are on the rise and he talked about an age-friendly workplace. Could he perhaps expand on that a little bit, please?

Mr. Pat Mellon

As the Deputy said, he does not like the word "retirement". How do people accept the words "old age pensioners"? For our organisation it is a senior citizen. There is also a logic to having an age-friendly workplace. When someone steps off the ladder, someone else usually steps on. We hear of onboarding new methods and people.

One of the simplest ways would be if employers could be encouraged, where if a person wants to step back to four or three days working, to link those three or four days to that person passing on their experience to the new people coming on. We hear so much about the loss of corporate memory. In places, the loss of corporate memory is mandatory whereas that corporate memory does not disappear. It is available and these are the kinds of workplaces we would like to see where if somebody decides that they have reached a certain age, that they would then not mind having an extra day or two for themselves.

Maybe their partner is elderly or such, but they want to keep their hand in the workplace. The ideal thing is for them to be there and to bring on the new people to have a seamless handover. If a senior citizen or someone of a certain age is passing on his or her experience, it is a great boost of confidence to both parties and a great recognition of both parties.

There is one other question I wanted to ask Mr. Mellon. He talked about the right of older people to choose their retirement age. I agree with him on that. I agree with the whole idea of getting rid of mandatory retirement ages. He talked about the capacity to continue working and people's physical health. This needs further debate and discussion and a more nuanced approach. I think we have just touched on that. It is something Mr. Mellon has highlighted in his presentation. Does he want to say more on that?

Mr. Pat Mellon

Yes. There are people involved in heavy, physical work. It takes a toll. We are all starting to see, as we get to a certain stage and get up in the morning, that it takes a toll. The Deputy understands that an early retirement suits such people, whereas it may not suit others. Maybe they want to do something slightly different. Maybe they want to step back. If they do not want to do five days per week, they can do three days or four days. It can be a win-win for all sides. The perception is that when one reaches a certain age, one does not have a choice. Is that a statement where the State, the people or society is saying that people have lost some of their intellectual or emotional capacity? That is not the case. We are so fond of the words "right to choose". Let us extend the right to choose.

I thank Mr. Lawlor and Ms Farrell for their presentation. Do they have retirement courses for TDs? I will come back to them on that.

Ms Laura Farrell

I could not possibly say.

I will come back to Ms Farrell on that one. The witnesses talked about how confusing the qualification rules for PRSI are. This is not the social protection committee. It is slightly different. I want to highlight that and agree with the witnesses that the issue is extraordinarily complicated. We may need to work to simplify it. They talked about 60% of female respondents continuing to work past 65 versus 40% of male respondents doing so. Why do they think there is such a difference?

Mr. Declan Lawlor

As I alluded to earlier, I think it is partly down to the participation rate of females in occupational pension schemes tending to be lower. I do not have statistics to prove this but, based on my long years working in the pensions world, I think that is a factor. Females may have higher participation rates in the types of occupations that do not have occupational pension schemes, including service industries, hospitality and so on. Again, it is outside the remit of this committee, but if the introduction of the new auto-enrolment ever gets implemented, it will begin to address that. For people who are currently on the glide path to retirement, one of the factors which influences why women may want to stay in employment longer is simply financial. They are going to suffer a loss of income for the 12 months between the ages of 65 and 66. There is also the fact that, frankly, although the State pension is one of the more generous pensions in the OECD, it will still be a reduction of income for virtually everybody. I think it is partly financial but it is also that females may not have the luxury of occupational pension schemes to the extent that males have.

The witnesses also highlighted the fact that people are living longer now. Women are living 23 years and men are living 20 years beyond the so-called retirement age, as we mentioned earlier. A woman down my way, who was the oldest woman in Ireland, recently died at the age of 110. People are being born now who could live to 120 or 130.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

When most people who are retiring now, at around 65, started working in the late 1970s or early 1980s, the average life expectancy for a male retiring at 65 was about 12 years. It has since gone up to 20 years.

For women, it might have been 13 to 14 years and it has gone up 23 years. It has been a huge increase.

That is very positive.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

Absolutely.

I thank the Chairman. I think my time is up.

I very much support the calls made by all the witnesses to lift the mandatory retirement age. We have heard a very powerful case, psychologically, financially and in so many other ways, for why it is important people should not be told they are no longer fit for work just because of their birthday. We know that should not be the case and that people want to work longer. Something earlier in the discussion struck me. While life expectancy has increased in Ireland, the rate of healthy life expectancy has increased at a higher rate. However, we also know people have to work and we can look in particular at the number of people who are now having to rent in their 50 and 60s. I am thinking of three divorcees in their 60s who have come to me in the past week. They have only a small lump sum from the proceeds of the family home and effectively face that nightmare of how they are going to rent.

The Bill is certainly a start. It very much just streamlines with the existing pensions system. Picking up on Age Action's disappointment that the general scheme really only lifts mandatory retirement to pension age, the elephant in the room in that regard is the interaction with occupational pension schemes. Ms Murphy and perhaps Dr. O'Connor as well might speak to how Age Action envisages the changes that would need to be made to occupational pension schemes to facilitate the lifting of a mandatory pension age. A pension age tends to be from day one of a contract of employment and obviously there are challenges there, if I can say that.

Ms Mary Murphy

There are examples. One of the good things about calling for the abolition of mandatory retirement or even just delaying it is that we have other countries we can look to. It has been in place for decades in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the USA. Of course, the USA's employment law in general is quite different from ours, so maybe there are not as many lessons to be gleaned from there, but with other countries we really can. In addition, with respect to delaying as opposed to wholesale abolition, there is the public service, where the retirement age now is 70 years and there is obviously a strong pension scheme there as well. There are, therefore, examples we can look for.

Another thing to say about it, which is perhaps a bit of a tangent, is it is important to not allow the practicalities or the reorganisation of traditional work forms and patterns to stand as a barrier to the change. Again, we are very firm about framing this as a human rights issue and an equality issue.

Just so I am clear in my own mind about what has happened in other countries that lifted the mandatory retirement age, did that apply to all employees there and then or was it to apply to future employees at a certain date or age?

Ms Mary Murphy

I think it was immediate. There might be variation because Canada and Australia have different provinces within them so there will be different examples. In certain circumstances it would have just been all employees at a certain age. There would be exemptions in that certain sectors of work would be allowed continue have a mandatory retirement like defence forces, police and things like that, but they are different cases.

Sure. It is important to say only about half the workforce has access to an occupational pension, so that is obviously critically important.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

There are various figures around the place as to the numbers of people in occupational pension schemes. The most recent one I have seen indicates that somewhere around 65% of workers have some form of occupational pension. Those who do not have one tend, by and large, to be in specific lower-paid sectors.

Regarding integration with occupational pension schemes, these schemes have a bigger problem with people who want to retire earlier because, in some cases, the benefits have to be actuarially reduced. Where people want to retire later, that really should not be an issue for most occupational pension schemes because it means they will be drawing down the benefit at a later stage and for a shorter period. People in defined contribution schemes do not have to make a decision as to whether to buy an annuity or invest in an approved retirement fund for another year or two. From the employee's point of view, it is all good news. From the point of view of the occupational pension scheme, it is really a zero-sum game, other than in the case of early retirement, which is a particular issue.

It is important to have that clarification. One of the issues reflected in the contributions this morning is the idea that retirement is a cliff edge, financially and psychologically. I want to understand a little more from the witnesses from all three organisations about the transition to retirement, particularly the question of the availability of flexible working arrangements. The data point to a number of people aged 55-plus who are not working for a variety of reasons. We do not expect everybody to work until age 65 or 66 and then suddenly retire. That is not borne out by the data. I want to hear the witnesses' experiences of people who want to keep working into their 60s but cannot work the full five days. We now have a code of practice in this country on the right to flexible and remote working. That right to flexible work does not extend to older persons but only to people with specific caring responsibilities. I am interested in our guests' views on the transition to retirement. Flexibility could be a huge part of that transition over a period of years.

Senator Sherlock's time is up but the witnesses may respond briefly to her comments.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

We did some research just before the Covid pandemic involving people coming up to retirement. If we google the words "retirement planning", the results tend to link to financial and pension websites. One of the points we emphasise in our programme is that there is more to retirement than just money. The money is important but there is more to retirement than that. It is about the whole question of who people will be after they retire and what will be their identity. We all invest 40-plus years in the identity associated with our occupation. Suddenly, at 65 or whatever age, that identity is taken away from us.

I use the phrase "cliff edge" regularly because retirement is a cliff event for most people. One of the reasons we try to encourage people to take our courses is to get them to accept it will be a cliff edge, whether they retire at 65, 66 or 67. They might be able to move to working three or four days a week before retirement, which could be a great approach for employees but may present difficulties for some employers to manage. For most people, however, retirement is a cliff edge. It should not be a surprise for people who are coming up to age 65 but we are always surprised that it is such for many people on our programmes. When I ask participants when they are planning to retire, they will say they are not due to retire until the beginning of June. When I ask whether it is June this year or next, they say it is this year and I will point out that is only two months away. They will say they had not looked at it that way. Retirement should not be a surprise but, in effect, it is a cliff event for most people.

Mr. Pat Mellon

Yes, it is a cliff event but there is no logical reason it should be so. Where retirement is mandatory at a certain age, that person's position is not being made redundant. The position is still there. There is no reason there cannot be an easing out or easing in of a new arrangement. There is no logical reason an employer can give that people have to retire. Their position is not being made redundant.

Ms Mary Murphy

I have two quick points. First, while flexibility is really important, the research has found that exercising choice, with people being able to decide for themselves how to retire, is really what determines how the transition goes. That has become evident through research.

Another thing is that the private rental sector and the ageing tenancies there were mentioned, and we have talked about the Department of Social Protection. The quality of retirement is not just going to be determined by the retirement process that employers are putting in place. It is also about transport, housing, healthcare and the opportunities for older persons to engage in society. It is about digital exclusion, and our culture around older persons being valued persons of the community and it being normal for people at all ages to learn new skills, get involved in new activities and things like that. That is just pointing at the very multifaceted nature of retirement. One is bringing in elements from across the State and society.

Ms Laura Farrell

What we have experienced on the council and the organisations that we work with is a kind of continuum of sophistication when it comes to managing people who are on the glide path to retirement. At the very pinnacle of good thought leadership among the learning and development departments we work with, we see them adopting multigenerational policies. They are not just managing the people who are heading for retirement; they are managing the young people coming in, and they are blending them together. They are helping each to learn from the other and so it completely transforms the experience, the preparation and the time that you have to adjust the change of identity. Identity tends to be at the core of a lot of the issues we see.

This is a really interesting discussion and some really important points have been brought up. For me, the point about the 65-66 trap, where at the moment you have to go onto the dole, is something that needs to be spoken about a lot more and needs to be fixed by having access to the pension at 65. Very interesting points have also been brought up about the four-day week, and there needs to be a lot more discussion on that.

I want to tease some points out. I am sympathetic to the arguments but I also have some concerns around how this plays out. The starting point is there is a drive internationally by capitalism and governments worldwide to increase the pension age. Japan is after going up to 70, I understand. We witnessed street battles in France over this issue. Basically, people are living longer and capitalism does not want to increase the social wage, which would probably mean increasing taxes on wealth to provide people with pensions for longer. With the pension age, there is a campaign on - and we had it in this country as well - to increase the age at which people have access to a state pension. My concern is that the genuine issues being raised by the groups will be abused by people in power, so that under the banner of choice, people will have the choice to work longer but, in reality, they have no choice because they do not have their mortgage paid. In fact, they do not even own their own home anymore. They are renting, the landlord is increasing the rent, and their social welfare payment is not going to be able to sustain them with any kind of decent life. They will be in poverty.

I do not think this is in conflict with any of the points the groups have raised but I do want to get a comment on it. The idea of choice and ending mandatory has to be linked to the idea of a decent life if people choose not to go on in the workplace. They should have decent pension entitlements at 60, and no concerns around their housing situation. They should be in secure housing. If that was their base, with regard to the idea of it being their choice, then it would be a genuine choice. However, in the absence of that, it can turn into the opposite. That is the concern that I have, and I would like to hear the comments of the groups on that point.

Ms Mary Murphy

We share those exact concerns. In fact, part of the Deputy's phrasing was something I meant to say earlier. We are talking so much about choice over the retirement decision. It cannot be a false choice. It cannot be that they are choosing to stay in because, otherwise, they do not have enough money to pay for the upkeep of their house, maintaining the car or whatever else. That is really important.

We were involved in the Stop 67 campaign, as was the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament. We saw how fervently and effectively older persons mobilised around that issue and made it a really decisive political issue that it was important to keep maintaining the State pension age. We are very committed to that. We are very concerned about the quality of the State pension. It has been identified by the State itself as the bedrock of income in older age. Some 30% of older persons get 90% or more of their income from social protection payments. Even in the higher income groups in older age cohorts, people are still getting 40% to 50% of their income from the State pension. It goes across all older age groups. People are really dependent on the State pension. It is very important and it is defining of what retirement is in Ireland.

We must maintain that quality and adapt the scheme to the changing nature of older age. We have talked about longer lives. The State pension was envisaged as a payment people would rely on for 15 years or so but it is now 20 or 25 years. One of the things we see is that older people are encountering new kinds of costs with longer lives. I refer to larger one-off costs. The State pension is very good at putting money in people's pockets for their everyday costs, including groceries and petrol. However, it is not great for when a person suddenly incurs a €2,000 bill to fix something or for replacing a car or furniture, which are new things people have to do in older age. I do not know if that is a bit of a tangent but we are seeing new financial demands on older persons and, at the same time, political pressure to reduce or weaken the State pension.

Another issue to flag is that, even accounting for our younger population, Ireland really has quite low spending on old age social protection compared with other OECD countries and other European countries. The amount of public expenditure going towards it is not really significant. We can afford to strengthen it and we can certainly afford to maintain it.

Mr. Pat Mellon

I 100% agree with the Deputy. It is about that word "mandatory". We need to be very careful. If that mandatory element is taken out, that can be used by a capitalist society to take more from people. That is why we are delighted to be before the committee. The members are the legislators and the people who should offer social protection to people. I am talking about a society that values people and entitles them to retire at a fair age. That is the one thing. When we say we want the mandatory element gone, we mean that people should have a right the choose. However, we require the members to make sure that big industry, pension funds and so on respect people's rights. That is our argument.

I thank the witnesses. I have my own opinion on retirement. To be frank, I believe that it is a disaster for a lot of people. Income is the major problem they have. A lot of people would be more open to the idea of changing their work situation if they had adequate income to fall back on and to allow them to go in new directions. One of the reasons they feel hard done by is that they face a drop in income. At the same time, some people do it very well and there is a lot to be said for that. However, for people who do not have an adequate private pension to fall back on, it is very difficult. I support the intention of the legislation. The new chair of the Industrial Development Authority Ireland was before the committee recently. He headed up a very large accounting practice in Dublin. I noted a point he made, which was that he had to retire even though he was leading a very large organisation. That seemed bizarre. The organisation was doing really well and he left at the top of his game, but only because it was mandatory, although I believe he had got a two-year extension. It raises the question of why we are getting rid of productive workers.

On the one hand, companies want to keep people who are efficient, so why would they say they would feel trapped by the idea of abolishing this provision and that mandatory retirement helps them to ensure they do not end up with employees whom, after ageing another bit, they do not want to keep but whom they are bound to keep in employment?

Mr. Pat Mellon

There is a capitalist element. The Deputy spoke about people having to retire at the top of their game, which implies they were at the top of their salaries from a company’s point of view. Companies can use mandatory retirement as an excuse to get rid of people. We all remember the discussion around yellow-pack workers. There might be a strong element of that in this case, and that would be an abuse. We are a corporate-friendly country, but there has to be a social aspect as well. It cannot be all take and no give.

Ms Mary Murphy

Two points occur to me. First, there is a great deal of misapprehension about older workers. There is an assumption that a decline in capacity is inevitable and that there are too many burdens associated with having an older worker to outweigh the benefits that accrue. Employers need to be educated about how that assumption is not borne out in the research and that older workers have much to offer. The research says that, in terms of ability, capacity and health status, two 66-year-olds are as likely to be as different from each other as a 66-year-old and a 35-year-old are. There is too much diversity to have a one-size-fits-all policy. Getting that point across to employers is important.

Second, firing someone is unpleasant. Employers do not want to have to do that with their workers of any age. There is an assumption that, if a person is going to lose his or her ability, the employer will eventually have to sit the worker down and say that he or she has to be let go because he or she is not performing. If the employer has worked with that person for 20 years and knows his or her family, the employer does not want to do that, but a mandatory requirement clause makes it much easier. The employer can say it is nothing personal and has nothing to do with their relationship, but it is just what is in the contract. In response to that assumption, we would say that older persons are as entitled to normal managerial processes as any other workers. Employment law is not supposed to protect employers from difficult conversations. We cannot have a paternalistic model in which employers are able to unilaterally make decisions about what is easier or best for older workers. If there is a decline in capacity and roles need to be discussed and supports need to be put in place, older workers should be talked to about that just as a 42-year-old who is going through the same would be.

The idea of corporate memory was raised. We need intergenerational teams and mentorship. We need older persons to be involved with colleagues of different ages in the workplace to undo many of the stereotypes and so that older workers can benefit by being able to develop continuously through access to training, etc.

Speaking of parliamentary systems, someone in Japan has to be nearly 70 before being considered for a Cabinet minister’s post. We have a different system, which is good.

There are certain tensions. Young people might say they are not getting a crack at good jobs early on because people are staying in employment for longer. That is a societal issue as much as an employment one. Perhaps the witnesses will speak to this point.

I will ask just one more question, as my time will be up shortly. Regarding people who want to retire at 65 but who are forced into the jobseeker’s payment, what discussions have the witnesses’ organisations had with the Department of Social Protection to get this anomaly addressed so that, if the retirement age is 65, people are able to access their pensions then?

Mr. Declan Lawlor

If employees were asked what it said in their contracts of employment, most would respond by asking what contract of employment and saying they did not have a clue what their contracts said because they could not find them when they went looking for them.

We have not had particular discussions with the relevant bodies about complications with social welfare benefits.

We have not had specific discussions with the relevant bodies on that. What increasingly comes up now is that the rules around qualifying for the jobseeker's benefit at the age of 65 are overcomplicated. For someone who works to the age of 65 and then applies for jobseeker's benefit, it is relatively straightforward. The main complication around the benefit tends to arise for those who have retired a little earlier and subsequently apply for the benefit payment at the age of 65 because applicants must have a minimum of 13 paid contributions in the governing contribution year. Nobody had ever heard of the governing contribution.

There are a lot of complications around how people qualify for jobseeker's benefit. When people reach the age of 65 they do not automatically receive the benefit payment for 65-year-olds, even though the name suggests they will. It is not quite as simple as that. There should be some clarity around that to make it simpler for people to understand what they need to do to qualify for the benefit. That would be a big help. For those who decide to continue working after the age of 65 and who will not claim that benefit, this legislation will go some way towards addressing that. I accept the point others made in asking why we should even have 66 as a compulsory retirement age but at least this will be a bit of progress.

I ask for an answer to my question on the idea that young people are being kept out of the high-end jobs market because people are sitting in these jobs.

Ms Mary Murphy

The labour market is a lot more dynamic than the assumption that there are a fixed number of jobs with X number of employees and they are all just filtering through the same system to get them. In economics, there is what is known as the lump of labour fallacy where there is a pie with eight slices that can only be given to eight people, whereas what we actually find is much more dynamic. Studies do not find that greater employment of older workers leads to worse employment for younger workers. The idea that one particular demographic of society is blocking up the labour force and good jobs has also been used to justify excluding migrants and women from the workforce. The argument that we need to protect these jobs for certain cohorts of society is quite troubling and it is not borne out in research. The research does not back it.

Many people are being mandatorily retired on the basis of provisions in their contracts that were created 40 years ago. I would have a hard time believing that employers knew 40 years ago that younger workers were going to need those jobs 40 years down the line. I do not see that as being the justification. One does not know what situation the labour force and younger workers are going to be in.

As regards the assumption that if an older person has a job, it means that a younger person cannot get that job, why is it assumed that the younger person has a greater entitlement and the older worker has some obligation to make way? That cannot be what we think of as intergenerational fairness. Intergenerational fairness is a balancing act and we must take into consideration what it means if we are forcing older workers out of employment just to make way for younger workers.

One of the ways in which our labour force is changing is that people do not get a job and stay in it for 30 years. People are moving much more between different employers and workplaces. The general pattern of advancement into positions is changing. That also complicates the argument because younger workers may not be in the same workplace for more than five years anyway.

Mr. Pat Mellon

I will also make a brief reply to the Deputy's question. This is also about defining what is "younger" and what is "older". Is there a younger, middle and older age? As Ms Murphy said, it is a dynamic process that people move through. Is it being suggested that someone of 30 years of age should step into somebody's job when that person reaches 65 years? As Ms Murphy said, that argument is discriminatory. We are also lucky to have such a dynamic labour and employment market at the moment. There is an illogical aspect to that argument as well.

Much of the debate is about getting onto the property ladder. Is that not the-----

Mr. Pat Mellon

Exactly.

I probably rank as one of the cheapest Deputies to elect. In terms of pension rights, it is probably a good saving for the State. I have been doing a bit of work for a Fine Gael policy lab that we have on positive ageing and I think it is not just an issue for older people. This is actually an issue for people of all ages as to what exactly their arrangement is. I would like to explore a few things. I was just looking at the memo the Government published on this Bill which states: "Under equality legislation, an employer is currently permitted to set a retirement age, but only in circumstances where it can be objectively and reasonably justified ... This means employees over the State Pension age may continue to invoke the protection of the Employment Equality Acts if their employer seeks to compulsorily retire them." Is that statement true? That sounds like a lot of these contracts are in conflict with equality legislation or am I misreading that?

I want to explore what has been done in Australia. Our guests said that removal of the mandatory age would put the onus back on employers to have these difficult conversations. How is that managed, say, if one is a small employer? A lot of small employers have talked about too much being put at their doorstop with a high cost and with uncertainty. How would that be? If one were a small employer and people were coming up to that age, would the employer face a series a hearings around the WRC if they had not done a lot of documentation? I would be very sympathetic to this sort of change but how has Australia done it? I could imagine small employers being on our back, saying we are completely out of touch with the reality of trying to run a small business if we told them there really is an onus on them to create a situation where it is now justifiable for them to ask someone to leave.

Ms Mary Murphy

We have talked about more ambitious ideas about age-friendly workplaces and provision for flexible working, internal mobility and changes in roles and responsibilities. I do not think we would be necessarily saying there needs to be an obligation on employers to implement all those ideal best-practice policies. We have the Unfair Dismissals Act and policies in place that all employers, including small employers, are already obligated to follow for managing performance issues and managing employees and they prevail.

You are saying the onus is on the employer to initiate this conversation about someone retiring at a certain age when that person thinks he or should be able to work on but his or her employer feels that is not the case. If there is diminishing productivity or whatever, then how is that conversation to be framed? You cannot just say we are changing the law and it is up to you to sort it out. Yes, there needs to be some line of sight on how a conclusion will be reached.

Ms Mary Murphy

We said that if this Act were to go forward we would want it to be the employer who has to raise the possibility of this person remaining past the mandatory age. Is that to what the Deputy refers?

No, you are saying both change that and remove the idea that 66 is the mandatory age. So you are removing the mandatory age of retirement.

Ms Mary Murphy

Yes.

How is that to be managed? How is that to be framed legislatively in a way that is fair to both sides of the contract? It seems to me quite a tricky thing for an employer, and a small employer particularly, to manage a situation where that is completely gone.

Mr. Pat Mellon

The Deputy has made a good point. In fairness, the legislation is to reduce and get rid of the word "mandatory". If the person in the job is capable of doing the job then what reason can be given by the employer? The Deputy asked what happens if there is a change in productivity or an inability to do whatever the job requires, but that applies to anyone in any job at any age.

If an employer has ten people and someone of 35 is not pulling their weight or not able to do the job, that is-----

The converse of that is the question of what employer will take me on when I am 60 with the prospect that I have a contract for life, effectively, if I wish to operate it. Are there unintended consequences of this? That is what I am trying to probe. I am quite sympathetic to the change, but we could end up with people who are approaching retirement age just being locked out of the jobs market because they do not want to enter into something that seems too uncertain.

Ms Mary Murphy

People approaching retirement age are already finding it incredibly hard to find new work, so I do not think this will necessarily be creating a new difficulty. If the fear is that if I hire this person at 60 and seven years down the line they are not going to be able to meet their contractual obligations, then I just go through the process I would go through if that happened with someone who was 35 and was doing their job. That is why I brought up the Unfair Dismissals Act. The employer would just go through normal managerial processes.

Yes, but it would become a norm almost. Most people would prefer to work on. I think a figure of 60% was given for the number of people who would prefer to work on. It will almost become the norm that there will have to be an unfair dismissal at some point. I am playing devil's advocate here. If we go down the road suggested, how do we frame the legislation in a way that would be workable?

Ms Mary Murphy

Literally all we would need to do to abolish mandatory retirement is take out the exemption that exists in the Employment Equality Act. It would not even involve adding anything. It would just require ensuring that the Employment Equality Act's prohibition on age discrimination would also apply to mandatory retirement. I do not accept the premise that all older workers are going to remain in work to a point where their employer is forced to get rid of them. They might work past the age of 66 and then decide to retire at 67 or 68. They are still going to retire at some point and are not going to work indefinitely, so the option for them to decide for themselves to step away is still going to be part of it. I am repeating myself but the Unfair Dismissals Act is there to ensure employers follow certain standards and procedures when they encounter cases where workers are unable to meet their contractual obligations. I do not think abolishing mandatory retirement would mean every single older worker would then have to be brought through that process.

Mr. Pat Mellon

I will make a quick point. Getting rid of mandatory retirement does not mean offering a permanent contract of employment regardless of a person's ability to do a job. It does not change that a person is hired for a specific post or is doing a specific job. Rights work both ways. The employer has rights. Fair exchange is not robbery. It is just getting rid of the idea of an employer using this crude tool to say at a certain age that a person must go. That right has nothing to do with ability.

If the witnesses can, they might send us what the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians have done to see how they framed their legislation.

Ms Mary Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Declan Lawlor

Under the current social welfare regulations, people now have the facility to defer receipt of the State retirement pension. On our courses, I ban the use of the phrase "old-age pension" because if it was still an old-age pension, none of our people would qualify for it for a number of years yet. People can now defer it until the age of 70. In most cases, I suspect, although there is no evidence to prove it yet, that will be adopted by people who want to continue in employment after 66 on the basis that if they draw the State pension, they will pay half of it in tax. Consequently, they will wait to draw the State pension until they finally stop working full time. It is a balance. We are making changes to social welfare that may not quite align with the regulations on retirement.

To clarify the point made by Ms Murphy, is she stating that the equality legislation I read out there does not apply to mandatory pension age? The way it read in the blurb sounded like there was still a right of action if someone said that a person should retire at 67 but that if the employer cannot justify that on objective grounds, a person can challenge that.

Ms Mary Murphy

Yes, that is true. There are stipulations as to how mandatory retirement has to be gone through under the Employment Equality Acts; it is regulated. I think one will still find that a very large number of older persons still are being forced to mandatorily retire. It is the most common case taken to the Workplace Relations Commission under age grounds. A significant number of those cases are unsuccessful and the employer is being allowed to retire these employees. It is still certainly happening.

Unfortunately, the evidence is not there on the prevalence of mandatory retirement in Ireland. It is assumed to be prevalent and as we said, we estimate that around 4,000 people every year are affected just at the age of 65. There are going to be different ages but looking at the data we have on employment patterns, it would seem that this probably is what is happening at the age of 65, per year, but we do not know how prevalent it is.

On the regulatory impact, particularly on social welfare, the best way to frame this is to give an example. I have a couple and the husband has battled with his mental health all his life. He has turned 66 years of age. His wife and partner is a younger woman and still has four years in employment to go and wants to continue in employment. Because he will not have any contributions and is only eligible for the non-contributory pension, he will not receive any pension unless she stops working. From our guests' research in this area, could a case be made specifically on the non-contributory pension, where it should not be based on one's stamps but that one should have an automatic entitlement, particularly if one has had a scenario of long-term ill-health?

Who would like to answer that question?

Mr. Pat Mellon

I am due to attend a joint committee next door and one of the things relates to the idea from the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament of a universal pension. If we focus on a universal pension, that man would be entitled to claim his pension. There are other ways then of funding it. We have very generous pension tax breaks. One of our beliefs is that there is a universal pension for everybody when they come to a certain age.

I would agree with that because there is a cohort of people who are probably earning marginally too much and it is then a deterrent. That lady will have to stop work in order for her husband to get the non-contributory pension. On the one hand we are trying to encourage people to continue working on, if that is what they want to do, and yet, at the same time, we are militating against people who are four years out from retirement and are telling them that if their older partner wishes to access a pension, that that person needs to stop working. There is certainly an anomaly in what we are trying to do there and what we are already doing, is there not?

Ms Mary Murphy

Yes, I believe there are many technical difficulties which people encounter which they are not expecting and are associated with the State pension, particularly the non-contributory one with the means-testing. We have used the word, "simplification" of social protection and that is something that we can certainly see with the non-contributory pension.

I have talked to a woman who is on a non-contributory pension where she may wish to do a bit of part-time work herself. She is a retired teacher and is just doing a bit of tutoring but she is very limited in how many hours she can do and she has to very much watch that. One gets these situations where there is a sense of meanness and of being overly regulated. I am aware that in the committee next door, means-testing in general in social protection is being discussed. That is certainly something we are plugged into and very concerned with, where people are having to change how they live and want to live their lives just so that they are eligible for an income from the State.

I thank the Cathaoirleach very much and I thank the contributors.

Does anybody else wish to make a contribution? No, okay.

That concludes our discussion on this matter today. I thank all of the representatives for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter today. I propose we go into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.10 a.m. and adjourned at 11.33 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 April 2024.
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