JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 21 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 19

Irish Red Cross: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the delegation from the Irish Red Cross, including the chairman, Mr. David Andrews, the secretary general, MsCarmel Dunne, and the national communications officer, Ms Aoife Mac Eoin. The delegation has been invited to update the committee on the current humanitarian situation in Iraq. Ms Dunne has recently returned from Baghdad, where she undertook a tour of inspection with representatives of Red Cross organisations from other countries at the request of the International Committee of the Red Cross. She has agreed to share her valuable experiences with us.

The committee has been very keen to learn of the position regarding injuries due to the conflict, the humanitarian situation and about what can be done to alleviate it. We look forward to the presentations of Mr. Andrews and Ms Dunne.

Mr. David Andrews

I am a past pupil of the committee and it is good to see its members again. I am honoured that it considered us worthy to address it. I am accompanied by Ms Aoife Mac Eoin, national communications officer of the Irish Red Cross, and Ms Carmel Dunne, secretary general of the Irish Red Cross.

I will begin by saying what the Irish Red Cross does in the context of the international Red Cross. The Irish Red Cross is working on the Iraqi humanitarian crisis as part of its international relationship through the Red Cross movement. However, while it has devoted much of its resources to this, it remains committed to its full domestic programme. Unlike any other overseas agency, the Irish Red Cross runs extensive domestic programmes in Ireland. All the members of the committee are fairly familiar with these so I do not have to go into any great detail. I am here specifically to speak about Iraq.

Uniquely, the Red Cross is formally and specifically named in the four Geneva Conventions and the additional two protocols as having a leading role in the protection of civilians, prisoners of war, the sick and injured in battle and those who are wounded and shipwrecked at sea. Through our relationship with the International Committee of the Red Cross, ICRC, the Irish Red Cross is supporting the life-saving work now being done in Iraq. Both the Irish Red Cross and the ICRC form part of the worldwide Red Cross movement, which also includes the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, IFRC, which represents all of the Red Cross movement's 179 national Red Cross societies. The Red Cross movement has approximately 100 million members worldwide and has won the Nobel peace prize on four occasions.

Based on our founding principles and in accordance with our mandate under the Geneva Conventions, the Red Cross is active in war zones around the world, endeavouring to save lives and end suffering. However, our organisation does not merely confine itself to the man-made disasters of war. In fact, 80% of our work arises as a result of environmental or natural disasters, including floods, droughts and earthquakes, according to an estimate three years ago.

The Red Cross, in accordance with its mandate under the conventions, has been working in Iraq for some 20 years. This work is carried out by the ICRC because of the humanitarian suffering caused by three international armed conflicts since 1980 and a decade of sanctions which have collectively inflicted enormous suffering on the people of Iraq. Other conflicts involve the Kurds, the Shias and the Marsh Arabs.

A sum of $20 million per month is estimated by the World Health Organisation as necessary to jump-start the Iraqi system. A sum of $325 million is needed by the UN, including the WHO, for emergency health care. This is part of a wider UN appeal for $2.1 billion for general humanitarian needs for the next six months. In 1990, the WHO said the Iraqi health system was very advanced, which was true. The aid bill from the second Gulf War involved a UN appeal for €1.8 billion, $2.1 billion, and a Red Cross appeal for €164 million plus. The European Commission Humanitarian Affairs Office, ECHO, has made a donation of €201 million.

According to the WHO, the three biggest killers of children in Iraq are acute respiratory conditions, diarrhoea and measles. The infant mortality rate has doubled since last year, amounting to 57.61 deaths per 1,000 live births. Incidentally, this is more than ten times the rate in Ireland, which amounts to 5.43 deaths per 1,000 live births. Now, according to the WHO, the infant mortality rate is 122 for male babies and 111 for female babies. Life expectancy in Iraq is approximately 17 years less than in Ireland. The estimated population of Iraq is approximately 23.5 million, half of whom are children. Almost 70% of the Iraqi population live in cities. Iraq is 79% of the size of France.

There are still no figures from the Gulf War, but studying a variety of sources indicates that a million died in the Iraq-Iran war, with the majority of losses on the Iranian side. In this war the Red Cross visited and registered nearly all of the 7,000 Iraqi POWs. Releases are under way and it is not clear how many of these remain in custody. In relation to the high-profile Iraqi POWs - Tariq Aziz and other prominent members of the Ba'ath Party - the Red Cross has reminded, and continues to remind, the occupying powers of the very specific obligations they must observe in relation to the detention of these individuals under the Geneva Conventions relating to access to Red Cross visits, medical attention, humane treatment, etc.

The issue of refugees also arises. Since 1991, 16 million Iraqis have been totally dependent on food rations according to the World Food Programme. Now, the WFP says it needs 1.6 million metric tonnes of food. Each month it needs to deliver approximately 480,000 tonnes of food to feed the whole Iraqi population. The bill for this is given as $1.3 billion. As for literacy levels, according to a 1995 estimate, 58% of Iraqis aged over 15 can read and write. This compares to 98% here in Ireland.

The Red Cross is in Iraq because of the special mandate of the Red Cross as laid down by the Geneva Conventions. This is difficult and dangerous work and already one Red Cross official has been killed in crossfire, bringing to six the number of Red Cross personnel killed on duty this year around the world. The Irish Red Cross is involved in the Iraq operation because we believe that it is very important to give as much support as possible to end suffering caused by war and we believe that the International Committee of the Red Cross has the positioning and local experience to do this job effectively, having worked there continuously for the past 20 years.

The Irish Red Cross has supported the Red Cross operation in three ways. We have sent delegates. Most recently, we had a highly specialised prosthesist, Michael Buffini from Clondalkin, Dublin, stationed in the north eastern town of Erbil in the Kurdish area. We are currently recruiting more personnel, particularly doctors, some of whom now live in Ireland, but are originally from Iraq. We are raising money to pay for essential services. With the help of a substantial Ireland Aid grant from the Government and public donations, we have raised over €1.6 million to date. We also provide services to Iraqi people living in Ireland so that they can find out if their family members, relatives and friends survived and are still alive. To date, over 30 people in Ireland have been helped in this way.

Regarding plans for the future, preventing the spread of disease is essential. Clean water is the main priority right now. The Red Cross is also fixing, maintaining and replacing sewage equipment. Bags of saline drips, drugs, sterile instruments and bandages are being supplied to hospitals. Hospitals are also being supplied with equipment. The Red Cross has provided doctors, nurses, engineers and communications personnel as well as offering medical training.

In accordance with its mandate under the Geneva Conventions, the Red Cross has visited more than 4,000 prisoners of war and taken Red Cross messages from them to their families so that they can say that they are alive. There is also the question of reuniting families. The Red Cross is facilitating discussions between Iraqi public officials and the occupying powers by providing a neutral space that can be used to address the needs of civilians. The Red Cross has also built and staffed refugee camps both in Iraq and in surrounding countries.

The Red Cross is appealing for €164 million in immediate aid. This money will be used to provide basic essentials. In terms of materials, we need to be able to buy both heavy and light engineering equipment to continue fixing, maintaining and-or replacing water and sewage facilities. We also need to be able to buy blankets, water bags, bandages and other medical materials. In terms of services, we need to be able to pay qualified and specialist people who can make a real difference by using their skills to provide basic services to Iraqis in hospitals, in civilian areas and in prisoner of war camps.

I will visit Iraq at the end of June in the company of the secretary general and the communications officer. This is the first opportunity we will have had of being allowed into Iraq as a separate national organisation. Our emphasis, as a nation and an organisation, should be humanitarian for the sake of the most vulnerable people arising out of a disastrous war.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Andrews for his interesting and detailed contribution. It shows how effective the Red Cross can be in such circumstances. It has the advantage of being there and knowing the ground.

Ms Carmel Dunne

I reiterate the appreciation already expressed by the chairman for the invitation to today's meeting. I have just returned from a field trip to Baghdad where I had the benefit of receiving first hand experience of the work of the Red Cross in Iraq. The Red Cross is currently reorganising itself in Iraq. The organisation was forced to reduce its staff to 130 during the war. These were mostly Iraqi staff including ten expatriates, one of whom was tragically killed in gunfire. Prior to this, we had approximately 450 personnel in Iraq, most of whom were Iraqi. There were 130 expatriates, including one Irish man specialising in prosthesis. I was pleased to meet John Rowland from Dublin. He is based in Amman and is in charge of logistics. Given the amount of aid and relief the Red Cross is trying to get to Baghdad, this is a senior position.

Security continues to be our biggest challenge in Iraq. Members will be aware of the recent change of administration due to the departure of military attaché, Jay Garner, and the introduction of Mr. Bremer. There is a period of flux owing to this change. Therefore, nothing I say can be taken as definite. There were ten incidents of armed robbery on the road to Kirkuk last week and six people were killed. In Baghdad, the Iraqi Red Cross had one vehicle stolen while Care International had two vehicles stolen. Coalition forces have increased security at the airport as two soldiers were recently killed there.

Hospitals and shops are being looted on a daily basis. During the war 1,000 patients fled the Al-Rashed psychiatric hospital and only 400 have returned to it so far. Of those that fled, 150 were criminally insane and only one of those has returned. The hospital has been looted of all fixtures and fittings. During the looting, some patients were raped leaving patients and staff terrified. A Red Cross official told me that the Al-Rashed hospital was laid open to looters because an American tank drove through one of its walls. I visited the hospital and found that another spate of looting had taken place. The hospital has been looted four times. Prior to the war, the Red Cross had restocked the hospital with occupational therapy equipment, blankets and general hospital equipment. We had also trained a number of the staff. This entire investment was looted in the first wave and everything we have done since has similarly been destroyed or stolen. There is a curfew at 11 p.m. for Iraqi people, while expatriates have a curfew of 8 p.m. for their own safety. This has curtailed many of our visits and where we can go.

Before the war, the health ministry functioned quite well, in spite of being severely limited by more than a decade of UN sanctions. Iraq had 145 hospitals and more than 1,000 health care centres before the war. The Red Cross worked well with the ministry of health, particularly in the areas of training and education. During the era of sanctions, we provided numerous materials and training programmes to ensure skills were up to date. The provision of such made up a substantial proportion of our investment in the Iraqi health system. The Red Cross also worked with a number of different hospitals and health care centres in Baghdad and elsewhere. As we have already mentioned, Red Cross delegate, Michael Buscemi, ran a hospital prosthesis department in the town of Irbil, but had to come home just before the war.

During the war, we strove to maintain a level of service that would at least meet the acute needs of the war wounded. We set up a first aid station in the foyers of some hospitals. The Red Cross also delivered bags of saline and drinking water, bandages and sterilised medical equipment to the Medical City Hospital, formerly Saddam Medical City Hospital, the Al-Kindi Hospital and other general hospitals, as well as assisting the on-going requirement of paediatric and maternity care. The Red Cross also supported the Iraqi Red Crescent's maintenance of two hospitals. Some 1,000 of the Red Crescent member volunteers have devoted their time towards unexploded ordnance prevention measures and education and awareness. The volunteers have worked to deal with the unexploded ordnance, including cluster bombs, and continues to work at educating the general public, particularly children, on the dangers of UXOs. In 1991, most urban water systems were operating at 50% of their pre-Gulf War capacity. Due to shortages of water treatment chemicals, most water reaching consumers was infected and hence of poor quality. Child mortality is much related to water-borne diseases, poor immunisation status, poor education and poor access to basic health care. Most of the water distributed to the people is drawn from the Tigris, Euphrates and the irrigation channel. These are all surface water sources and are therefore susceptible to pollution, particularly by human waste.

Availability of safe and clean drinking water in rural areas is estimated at 33%. The efficiency of water treatment plants is being affected by lack of continuous power supply, lack of necessary spares and equipment. Severe shortages of power throughout the country present a massive risk of disease because power is critical to the treatment of sewage, which is critical in order to prevent contamination of the water supply. The water supply has never been at more risk of contamination than now because of the war damage, but most particularly because of the stripping and looting of the water installations.

The Red Cross has stressed to the occupying power that a clean and safe water supply is vital to the general population, to service hospitals and prevent the outbreak of epidemics. Prior to the war, diarrhoea was one of the three child killers in Iraq. If untreated sewage seeps into the water supply as we approach the summer months and the temperature soars above 40 degrees, the consequences could be catastrophic. While I was in Baghdad, the office for reconstruction and humanitarian aid, set up by the occupying powers, told a Red Cross delegation that just half of the normal electricity was reaching Baghdad at that time. They are still repairing parts of the power supply.

There are problems with refining oil and the absence of fuel supply means that, despite Iraq being one of the most oil-rich countries in the world, people have to queue for hours for petrol. Crude oil is building up in the oil reservoirs and cannot be refined because of the intermittent power supply. This crude oil is being pumped back into the ground. The shortage of petrol and oil means people cannot go about their daily business. Oil is also used for cooking and, as it is almost impossible to get, people are starting to cut down trees for cooking fuel.

The situation in Iraq is tense. I urge the chairman and the members of the committee to use their influence to talk to the coalition forces to get them to act quickly to get some kind of interim leadership in place to secure the well-being of the people of Iraq and protect infrastructure such as hospitals. Security is the main problem at the moment and people cannot do their work because of the insecurity.

Deputy G. Mitchell

I join the chairm

an in welcoming the Irish Red Cross delegation, lead by our former colleague, David Andrews. I am glad to see there is a life after politics and I am glad to see Mr. Andrews is enjoying it.

I was struck by what he and Ms Dunne said. In relation to the Red Cross and NGO response to the needs of Iraq, what co-ordination is taking place to remove duplication? Is there a co-operative strategy for Irish NGOs and how does the role of the Red Cross dovetail with the efforts of the international Red Cross?

I am aware of one Iraqi doctor, a constituent of mine, who was not allowed to practice here because he could not get his certification from Iraq. There must be many displaced people like this man, who now have an Irish passport and who would like to go back and help out in Iraq and could be recruited throughout Europe. Has the Red Cross given that any consideration?

There is a wealth of experience in local authorities in Ireland. I am a member of Dublin City Council and I know there are people who work for these local authorities who have huge experience in the area of water supply and proper treatment of sewage. Could an arrangement be made with local authorities to second qualified people to the effort in Iraq to provide clean water? After all, as Mr. Andrews pointed out, it is the most pressing concern.

I was struck by what Ms Dunne said and I sympathise with the Red Cross and the family of the colleague who was lost. It seems extraordinary that so much effort would have gone into a war in Iraq and no thought was given to putting in place basic security arrangements and policing for the aftermath. Can the delegation give us a further assessment on that issue and how we might help? Could we bring pressure to bear through the EU to help with that issue?

Senator Mooney

I join in the welcome. It is a great pleasure to welcome back our former colleague.

Is the international Red Cross the only non-governmental organisation operating on a humanitarian basis in Iraq? In light of the stated policy of the US, the inference is that it does not wish to see any role for the UN on a political or quasi-political level. What relationship does the international Red Cross have with the resident authority - the occupying powers? Ms Dunne referred to the fact that Mr. Bremer is new to the post and that they have not had an opportunity to meet. However, the organisation would have had dealings with General Garner. It seems on the face of it that the world's largest military power was able to remove Saddam Hussein's regime but did not seem to have a plan B and, as a result, there is now widespread chaos in that society. As Ms Dunne emphasised, security is a major issue. Thousands of military personnel are operating in the country and more are on their way. How does the delegation see the situation developing in the humanitarian area in the context of the question I have asked? It is important that the occupying forces, particularly the Americans, respond to what the Red Cross is attempting to do.

Mr. Andrews

Deputy Mitchell quite rightly asked about co-operation between the Red Cross and the NGOs. There is no formal structural co-operation, as there is between the Red Cross and organisations such as Trócaire, Concern or GOAL. I take the Deputy's point, however. For a long time I have been a strong advocate of a unity of purpose among the national non-governmental organisations dealing with a particular problem - quite a complex problem, but nevertheless a humanitarian problem - in one country, in this instance Iraq. The Deputy's observations are noted and this is something we should pursue.

On the question of the individual with the Northern Ireland passport, we have had inquiries from some 30 Iraqis living in Ireland relating to our tracing service, which is operated by the Red Cross. This service tries to make contact with the inquirer's family in Iraq, which is a difficult problem. We also identified four prisoners who might have been visited by the International Committee of the Red Cross. We are very anxious to talk to the person mentioned with a view to recruiting him for a specific purpose, as suggested. The question of local authorities is a matter for the authorities themselves. If they offer volunteers in the context of sanitation or sewage, as mentioned, it will be extremely welcome. The national committee of the International Committee of the Red Cross is anxious to identify these volunteers with a view to providing them with a short contract for three, six or nine months, as the case may be, having regard to the standard of their abilities. They would be very welcome.

The secretary general has already dealt with the question of security. Security is extremely loose; the only real security seems to be around oil emplacements, oil-related buildings and so on in Baghdad, as I understand from the report of the secretary general. Senator Mooney asked about being the only NGO involved in Iraq. I do not think this is so; there are other organisations, including GOAL and perhaps Trócaire and Concern. The secretary general can answer that question. The International Committee of the Red Cross is bound by its conventions and principles: it cannot become involved or engage, in a political sense, with the occupying forces, as Senator Mooney says, but it has a good relationship with the occupying force, the so-called coalition force. It gets on with its day to day business independently. As Senator Mooney said, this is about a humanitarian response to a disastrous situation. It behoves us all, including our Government and this committee, to ensure that the humanitarian response does not go off the screens - that it does not leave the vision of the media, both on our television screens and in print.

Ms Dunne

The reason I went to Iraq in the first place was that the Red Cross organisations of 33 different countries were meeting to co-ordinate the work we were doing, because every country wanted to go in and do its own thing. We divided the work between the different countries. Other international NGOs also do this. It is a big country, so people are stationed in different parts. A question was asked about the number of NGOs. There are about 45 in Baghdad alone. I did not meet any Irish NGOs there but I met representatives of Concern in Jordan while they were on their way to Iraq. We exchange information. They give me information on what they have found out in different parts and I give them information in return. This is the kind of co-ordination that goes on. There is no structure for exchanging information, but we do it on an informal basis.

Iraqis living in Ireland who are skilled and could go to Iraq were mentioned. We have had applications from people who want to go overseas and we are working on trying to get them over at the moment. Some Iraqi doctors will go there. On the question of the water supply, engineers and local authorities, there are many Iraqis in Iraq who are qualified engineers, so we must be careful that we are not taking over people's jobs. We can help people with re-training, but we do not want to replace the people who are already there. On the relationship with the coalition forces, I support what the chairman said. The Red Cross meets the coalition forces on a regular basis because of security and the need to obtain permission to travel to different places. Therefore, they are linked quite closely.

Senator Norris

I welcome the delegation. I have had the honour of being in Baghdad with the chairman, Mr. Andrews, and it was a very interesting and revealing experience. I congratulate him and the secretary general on their very clear and precise presentation, which covered many of the points about which we wanted to ask questions. Many of the other ones have also been raised by my colleagues.

I understand it is not merely hospitals and cultural sites that have been left unprotected by the USA and UK forces, but nuclear establishments. There have been very worrying reports that material has been looted from these, perhaps by people who are quite ignorant of their potential danger. I also understand there have been some incidents of radiation sickness among local populations in the areas surrounding these installations. I wonder whether the Red Cross has any knowledge of this. Has anybody appeared for treatment?

I also have a specific question for Mr. Andrews. I have a motion, which I will put before the committee after the presentation, that this committee calls upon the Minister for Foreign Affairs to use his good offices to try to ensure that the Governments of the USA and the UK meet their absolute moral obligations, as well as their legal obligations under the fourth Geneva Convention, to provide the finest medical care and rehabilitative treatment for all civilian casualties of the recent war in Iraq as a matter of greatest urgency. I put that down because, like so many people across the world, I was appalled by the pictures of little Ali, who lost his family and his arms, and his very articulate presentation of his case. He has gone to Kuwait and is receiving treatment, but I am sure there are many other people who cannot do this. I feel passionately that we should keep the pressure up, but I do not want to do something wrong. Does Mr. Andrews feel the general outline of this would be helpful or counterproductive? I have not had a negative response from my colleagues, but a reading would be helpful. Would it be useful to ask our Minister for Foreign Affairs to apply pressure and use his good offices to try to make sure that, having mutilated and damaged in their bombing raids civilians who were oppressed by Saddam Hussein and are now left in these conditions, these countries fulfil their obligations to give them treatment?

Mr. Andrews

I thank the Senator for his genuine and sincere interest in this problem and I note in that regard his own excellent record over many years. It is very important that he pursue the motion in the terms he has outlined and that he ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to do as he has suggested. He would be pushing an open door in that regard, because our excellent Minister would listen very carefully to the Senator, taking his record into account. He should not have any problems in convincing the Minister that he should keep up the pressure on the coalition forces and the message coming from this committee should be that support is needed to help the people mentioned by the Senator, particularly the mothers and children. As Senator Norris said, he and I visited the Al-Rashid hospital when we were there and we saw a pretty terrible place. We saw the treatment of the unfortunate people and it was nothing to boast about. One can imagine what it is like now.

I thank the Senator for his proposed motion and will pursue it in the interest of the objectives we all seek to achieve, namely, a humanitarian solution to a terribly complex and dangerous problem.

Deputy M. Higgins

I regret that we have such few opportunities of staying with this issue. Members of the Dáil will have the opportunity of asking questions. Our last several meetings of this committee have not been covered in "Oireachtas Report" and there is not a single member of the media present today. In addition, there has been recent comment that perhaps those of us that spoke about the inappropriateness of the war and its consequences had got it wrong. The suggestion, by writers in The Sunday Times and elsewhere, is that not enough people died to fulfil the forecast. While we have not mentioned UNICEF at this meeting, I hope we will issue an invitation for it to meet us. UNICEF is active in Iraq; it stayed there during the war and supplies more than 2 million litres of water per day in Iraq. It also supplies chlorine tablets etc. It, along with the Red Cross and others, has my admiration for staying with the humanitarian cause.

UNICEF suggested that had the American threat of carpet-bombing been carried out in Baghdad, a city of 5.5 million inhabitants, there could have been 100,000 immediate deaths and 400,000 affected. People like me welcome the escape of 2.5 million from Baghdad and that the Republican Guard did not make hostages of the civilian population. More than 1 million pregnant and lactating mothers were affected during the war. The media, including the Irish media, has gone away, except for the people that have come out of the woodwork. Some of these people have an agenda that goes beyond Iraq - some have an anti-Islamic agenda. While I am currently covered by parliamentary privilege, I will use an occasion when I am not to publicly expand on this.

In our background note, five of the seven paragraphs concentrate on what the US and Britain are doing. Mr. Andrews was in Baghdad with me and he knows my views and agrees with me. Is it Mr. Andrews' opinion that the fourth Geneva Convention, regarding the protection of civilians is being complied with? He will recall the text of this convention better than me. It suggests that anything required for the protection and sustenance of children cannot be interfered with or it is an act of war. Our memo tells us the military phase is over. Irrespective of this, the occupying power carries the responsibility of the fourth Geneva Convention.

According to our memo, which we received as background information from the Department, the US has 19 of the 55 leaders in custody. This is what suggested my next question to me. Where are these people being held? Does the Red Cross know where they are? I have views on the appropriateness of setting the images of losers in a conflict on a deck of cards. It tells one more about people that think like that than one might want to know. This committee has yet to discuss Guantanamo Bay and the black hole were hundreds of prisoners are held out of sight of any recourse to international law or any law. One occasionally picks up items on televised American news that we will not hear on our news today and I have heard Colin Powell and others talking about American, rather than international, justice. I put it to Mr. Andrews that American justice includes Guantanamo Bay but does not seem to include the full rigour of the Geneva Convention.

Our briefing note tells us that disorder continues to be a serious problem and essential services such as water and electricity have not yet been restored. The Red Cross has told us that half of the electricity has been restored. If electricity is not available, the water pumps and purifying systems cannot be operated. UNICEFs assessment shows that 7.7% of children under five are suffering from acute malnutrition compared with 4% last year. Acute malnutrition means that a child is actually wasting away. In response to diarrhoea attacks, there has been a need for people to supply re-hydration therapy tablets.

I have become increasingly depressed at our inability to deal with the humanitarian situation in Iraq. The briefing note tells us that there has been discussion at the UN and that the draft resolution, which has been replaced by a further draft, will not give a lead role to the UN. The UN may be allowed in. What are the implications for the Red Cross? I spoke to the International Red Cross in Geneva late on the night when its staff member was shot in crossfire. I have been telephoned by the International Federation Union of Journalists because the al-Jazeera building, with many staff inside, was under fire. Irish journalists passed a resolution about this as well.

I am glad Mr. Andrews will go back to Iraq in June. This committee should also go back. I find it obscene that some people are saying not enough people were killed to fulfil the predictions of those that were against the war. These people now talk about Jay Garner being gone and Gerry taking his place. What about the children, women, contaminated water, diarrhoea and lack of structures? Mr. Andrews knows as well as I do that 16 million people were dependent on the food aid programme. Who is feeding those people now? We do not know.

The international media and the Irish media have gone away. Some of the extremists have now come back and are saying that perhaps war works after all as 100,000 people were not killed. I say this as perhaps its longest serving member, but this committee could not say how many were killed in the war, how many were injured, or how many children are dying or are malnourished. Mr. Andrews is one of our only hopes when he goes in June and comes back to tell us what the situation is, all the time acting specifically within the confines of what he is mandated to do in law, as he rightly says, under the fourth Geneva Convention.

If we are to find out ourselves, we owe it to the people of Iraq to go back. That is all I have to say, and I feel strongly about it. I am absolutely outraged at what has happened since the dropping of the bombs and at the assumption that because carpet bombing did not take place we can simply just walk away from the issue, with the media therefore just running off as it did.

Senator Ryan

I welcome the delegation. Like everybody else I particularly welcome the Chairman of the Irish Red Cross, David Andrews, an old friend and occasional sparring partner. His liberal instincts have always served us well. I wish to ask a couple of very specific questions.

Given that such a huge amount of looting is going on in Iraq, is it not astonishing that none of the looters has come across any weapons of mass destruction, with which the country was supposed to be awash? There is no suggestion that there is anthrax, mustard gas or anything else in the possession of anybody. Since looters have managed to strip nuclear reactors, water treatment plants, psychiatric hospitals and so on but have found none of this lethal equipment that could be used for large scale blackmail, the only conclusion to be drawn is that such material is not there and never was there. Thus, the whole basis of this horrible war was a lie. I shall not try to draw the Irish Red Cross into that assertion but it needs to be said.

On the aid bill mentioned by Mr. Andrews from the second Gulf War, the UN appeal has been for $2.1 billion. How much of the aid bill has been met or committed? We know what is needed but does the Red Cross know how much of the bill is actually committed? In other words, how large is the gap between aspiration and reality?

My second question relates to something the secretary general of the Irish Red Cross mentioned about unexploded ordnance. In passing, she mentioned cluster bombs. I am tempted to inquire as to whether all of this obviously extremely important work about unexploded ordnance has come across any unused weapons of mass destruction, and I presume the answer will again be "No." Nevertheless, I am concerned about cluster bombs and what the view of the Red Cross is on their use in areas with a high density of civilian population. I find it hard to reconcile cluster bombs with a stated aim of liberating the people of a country, to put it very mildly.

My final question is whether we can make it explicitly clear yet again that it is the legal as well as moral obligation of the two occupying powers to provide stability in a country they choose to occupy? How can that be done if every single member of the Ba'ath Party, all 600,000 of them, has now been officially excluded from all public office? How can one stabilise a country where to be involved in public office everyone had to be a member of the Baáth Party, if they suddenly announce, because it is a nice thing to say off the top of their heads, that all of the people who had been members of the Ba'ath Party will not be allowed to be involved in anything? If the African National Congress had sought a similar situation in South Africa, public administration would have collapsed. If all of the countries that were so joyously liberated in Eastern Europe in the early 1990s had insisted that all former communists be excluded from public office, they would have all collapsed. Can the Red Cross see any hope for a proper system of domestic security and public administration when virtually every public servant of any level is now excluded from office?

Mr. Andrews

Carmel Dunne will come in after me to deal with that. On the questions raised by Deputy Michael D. Higgins on the fourth Geneva Convention, which deals with protection of civilians, I regret to say this convention is not being operated as it should be operated. Tragically, there is very little protection for civilians because of the emphasis on the protection of facilities and, more particularly, facilities related to oil. Consequently, the fourth convention is not being worked properly.

Deputy Higgins noted that 19 of the 55 leaders are now in custody and asked where they are. According to our information they are in Baghdad, and the International Committee of the Red Cross is seeking access to them, as required by the third Geneva Convention, which deals with prisoners of war. We are trying to gain access to these individuals as they are entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions, specifically the third convention.

Regarding the restoration of electricity, the Deputy is quite right that without power one cannot operate sanitation, sewage and other facilities that are so urgently required for the advantage of citizens who are deprived. Maybe I am crossing the line in this regard and should just express a personal opinion on this and not bind the Red Cross by it, but the regrettable sidelining of the United Nations is most unfortunate. Why it cannot be given a lead role remains a total mystery to me. However, I suspect that in time - and this may be optimistic on my part - when the Americans and the British find that they cannot achieve the restoration of stability and security, they may then finally turn to the United Nations and give it its proper place in the fabric of that sundered society.

On the question of the media, yes, the international media have gone away, tragically, and it is organisations like the International Committee of the Red Cross, domestic organisations like ourselves and those other NGOS which do such excellent work, like GOAL, Trócaire, Concern and others that have to continue the fight for recognition to ensure that the vulnerable women and children in that society get some modicum of protection. It will be a very long and difficult struggle but we will continue the fight. I have no doubt that our secretary general will follow up on my brief answers to Deputy Michael Higgins in this regard by looking at other matters.

Senator Brendan Ryan noted the continuation of looting, and he is correct to identify the reality that the occupying coalition forces went in on the basis that they were going to find weapons of mass destruction. However, the emphasis has now shifted to Saddam's treatment of his own people and on their role in identifying the mass graves found around Babylon and other places at which I, Deputy Michael D. Higgins and Senator Norris have been.

Regarding the aid bill, I outlined in my short presentation to the committee details of the aid being sought but I cannot say how much aid has been given or promised.

Deputy M. Higgins

About 30%.

Mr. Andrews

If Deputy Higgins says it is 30% I will accept that figure. The International Committee of the Red Cross is opposed very strongly to cluster bombs. They are an obscenity. If they had been used in Baghdad, as Deputy Higgins has said, one could imagine the number of dead and injured would have been far greater than it was. What is required urgently is an interim government in Iraq. That is one of the principal conditions for the restoration of stability with, as Deputy Higgins rightly identifies, a greater, more realistic role for the UN. I pass you on to my colleague now. I am grateful to the Deputies and the Senators for their questions.

Ms Dunne

On the point about no food being distributed, six months supply of food was distributed before the war so that will last for maybe another two months. After that there is no food and people have no jobs. They are not getting paid so the situation will be serious. The WFP has a great deal of food and is waiting to see who will pay for it before it will be distributed. The situation will be bad if something does not happen in the next few weeks.

Senator Norris

What about radiation?

Ms Dunne

Radiation came up at our meeting and there was no evidence of radiation sickness.

Chairman

I would like on behalf of all the members of the committee to thank David Andrews, Carmel Dunne and Aoife Mac Eoin for coming here today and giving us such a comprehensive and informative presentation. All the members will agree that their visit was worthwhile and timely. We put off our meeting for a week specifically until you were here because we knew you would have up to date information. Thank you for that and for coming here today.