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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 1 May 2024

Challenges Relating to the Provision of Dentistry Services: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Senator Seán Kyne. The minutes of the committee meetings of 23 and 24 April 2024 have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

Today's meeting is to again consider challenges facing the provision of dentistry services and related issues. The committee last met the Irish Dental Association in July of last year to discuss the dental workforce plan. To commence the committee's consideration of the matter on today's agenda, from the Irish Dental Association I am pleased to welcome: Mr. Fintan Hourihan, chief executive officer; Dr. Rory Boyd, president; Dr. Will Rymer, president-elect; and Dr. Caroline Robins, GP committee chair. From the Dental Council of Ireland I welcome: Dr. Gerry Cleary, president; Dr. Catherine Gallagher, vice president; Dr. David O’Flynn, registrar; and Mr. Paul Lyons, head of education.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside of the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member taking part via MS Teams that they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex prior to making a contribution.

I invite Mr. Hourihan to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I am grateful for the invitation to address the committee. I am the chief executive of the Irish Dental Association. I am joined by my colleagues Dr. Boyd, Dr. Rymer and Dr. Robins. This is the third time we have been invited to address the committee during the lifetime of the current Dáil. We welcome its continued interest in the concerns we have consistently raised around the provision of dental care in Ireland.

Regrettably, we cannot report that the Government has afforded the necessary urgency or priority to dealing with the concerns we have consistently highlighted. The only hope we can cling to is that the World Health Organization has published a global oral health strategy, to which the Government is a signatory, that contains hugely ambitious targets to improve access to oral health. The association recognises the challenges and the opportunities the WHO targets present and we have published in recent weeks a comprehensive position paper which examines the implications of the WHO plan, assesses our readiness to meet those targets and identifies the necessary foundations and stepping stones needed to ensure successful reform in many areas.

We wish to address three challenges regarding the provision of dental care in Ireland, namely: first, our concerns about equitable access to dental care; second, the need to urgently address the concerns we hold in regard to patient safety; and, third, the workforce and capacity challenges we face and what the State can do to reduce the shortage of dental staff. The majority of dental care is provided by dentists to private patients. Over 80% of dental care is paid for as an out-of-pocket expense by patients, which raises a number of issues. As dental practices are very expensive to operate and dentists receive no subvention to meet their operating costs, unlike medical GPs, who receive €200 million in practice supports every year, their fees must be set at a level to cover their operating costs. For the patient, this means that dental care is an expensive cost and, potentially, this could make it unaffordable for many patients.

The State can help patients in meeting the costs of dental care by either subventing practice costs, which it has refused to do, or subsidising the cost incurred by patients through direct subsidy payments to patients or allowing patients to claim tax relief in order to reduce the cost involved. The Med 2 scheme did allow marginal rate tax relief, but this was restricted to standard rate relief in 2009, which had the effect of increasing the net cost to patients. We believe the State should review the operation of the Med 2 scheme to alleviate the cost to patients.

Dentists want to be able to provide care to all in their communities. For vulnerable or marginalised adults, the State has an important role to play in commissioning dental care to medical card patients and providing limited supports in return for PRSI contributions. Successive year-on-year polls conducted by our association show that over 90% of our members want to see a State scheme to assist access for lower income groups to dental care.

The medical card scheme has been spiralling into chaos over many years. There was a small rise in the number of treatments provided after the Minister increased payments to dentists last year, but barely one in four dentists participates in the scheme, and the number of patients seen is 35% less than in 2014. I checked the number of treatments. Whereas now barely 250,000 treatments are provided to patients, as far back as 2009, 15 years ago, 1.6 million treatments were provided to medical card patients. That is the perfect illustration of the decline of the scheme. Three years ago, in May 2021, the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, announced that he would instruct his officials to begin talks with the Irish Dental Association on a new scheme to replace the DTSS as a matter of urgency. We are still waiting for formal talks on a new scheme to begin. In the meantime, we have suggested an interim emergency scheme whereby HSE dental clinics would be opened at night and on weekends to allow public and private dentists to volunteer to see patients, but we are waiting for a response on that point also. In fact, we have commissioned and published a plethora of research and proposals to replace the current scheme with a far more effective model for medical card patients. Our experience with the medical card scheme is one of the many reasons dentists feel we are always one excuse or one more promise away from anything being done by the State to address problems which nobody disputes are real.

Persons who have temporary international protection or who are seeking asylum as refugees need care, which the State should fund or provide directly through its own dental service within the HSE. As I will go on to explain, the complete collapse in the HSE dental service, designed to provide care primarily for children and special care patients, means that the arrival of tens of thousands of vulnerable adults into dentists' clinics has placed huge stress on the system and on those who are employed to care for children and special care patients.

Thirty years ago, the Government published a plan which promised that children would be seen by a dentist at three different stages in their primary school days through the school screening service operated by the HSE. Our experience now is that many children are seen only once in primary school, usually in sixth class, which is way too late, or in some cases seen for the first time in secondary school, up to transition year in the case of Laois. In fact, we have now established that at least 100,000 primary school children were denied a dental appointment by the HSE dental service last year alone. That is less than 50% of the eligible cohort. That figure is also obscured by the fact that secondary school pupils being seen as a catch-up are also included in this data.

The reason fewer children are being seen is simple: the HSE dental service has been neglected and woefully understaffed. The number of dentists and dental team members in the HSE dental service has fallen by over 23% in the past decade, while the number of eligible patients has risen by the same amount. For some reason, dentistry in the HSE has been uniquely neglected. Between 2012 and 2021, the HSE increased the number of junior doctors by 52%, hospital consultants by 44%, administrators by 37% and nurses by 20%. I know medical and dental are often grouped together, but when dental is separated out, it is seen that the number of dentists employed by the HSE fell by 23% between 2006 and 2022. That is in stark contrast to the approach to employing staff by the HSE.

To compound these problems, access to operating theatres when patients require treatment under general anaesthesia, GA, has been severely diminished, primarily because of the failure to provide access to facilities, which were promised in Connolly Hospital, in Blanchardstown, following the closure of the GA clinic in St. James's Hospital ten years ago. That clinic had provided treatment under GA to 3,000 patients per annum. We now have very vulnerable patients waiting in many cases for years for treatment under general anaesthesia. They cannot be seen because of the problems in Connolly Hospital.

There is a real sense of uncertainty within the public dental service right now, especially given the Minister for Health's statement indicating his desire to develop a scheme which would see dental care for children up to seven years of age provided by private dentists. We welcome the commitment to improve access to dental care for children but we have serious doubts about the solution proposed by the Minister, especially when a viable scheme, the school screening service, is available but not resourced. Nine out of ten private dentists have told us they believe that the State should prioritise rebuilding the HSE dental service over launching a scheme for private dentists which the vast majority of dentists say they would not have the capacity to provide. We believe that, as an immediate measure, the Minister for Health should give a clear and unambiguous statement on the future of the HSE dental service and sanction the gradual rebuilding of the service to bring staffing levels back to where they were even before we saw a rapid rise in the number of eligible patients. The continued uncertainty is making it almost impossible in many cases to hire badly needed staff when the HSE allows the employment of dentists simply to replace those who retire or resign.

Concerns about patient safety have been thrown into sharp focus with several disturbing media investigations broadcast by the "RTÉ Investigates" team over the past 12 months. The association has consistently called for the 1985 Act to be updated and modernised to allow for the mandatory licensing and inspection of dental practices, among other changes. As it stands, the Dental Council does not have the relevant powers to conduct investigations, carry out inspections or issue sanctions in many cases where patient care is being jeopardised. The Government has modernised legislation as required by other health professions. Unfortunately, this has not been the case for dentistry. The "RTÉ Investigates" programme most recently broadcast outlined the shocking situation of the apparent illegal cross-border importation of controlled substances such as botulinum toxin, commonly known by its brand name, Botox, and other products, the sale of controlled substances to unqualified or unlicensed individuals and entities, and the use of those products by unqualified individuals.

We again ask that the Oireachtas prioritise reform of the Dentists Act 1985 or bring forward amendments via secondary legislation to bring the dental sector onto the same regulatory footing as that of general health. We also call for publication of the patient safety (licensing) Bill, in addition to reform of the Dentists Act 1985, to ensure that patient information and safety are of the highest quality and to allow for greater powers for the Health Information and Quality Authority, the HPRA, the Medical Council and all other relevant State regulatory bodies in order to ensure that the application of the law is thoroughly followed.

The single greatest impediment to improving access to dental care is the shortage of dentists and dental staff to provide such care. Our latest survey of members, published just last week, reveals that 65% of private dentists have been unable to recruit a candidate for dentist positions. Over half of dentists have been unable to recruit dental nurses. Not surprisingly, this means that there has been an impact on waiting times and access to dental care. Two thirds of dentists said the shortage of dental staff is impacting access and treatment. One quarter said they are currently not taking on any new adult patients. Nearly one in seven patients is now waiting over four months for a general dental appointment, that is, an appointment with a general dentist. This is an increase from one in 20 back in 2023. One third of patients are now waiting over four months for an appointment with a specialist. Again, we have seen those waiting lists double in the past 12 months.

There are several solutions needed to rectify the staff shortage, and we previously presented to this committee a detailed paper on the workforce issue. We acknowledge the welcome decision by the Government to fund extra undergraduate places to be provided by a new RCSI dental school in Dublin. However, the decision to cancel the building of a new dental school in Cork is profoundly worrying. We believe that, with some smart thinking and collaboration between the relevant Government Departments, UCC and the HSE, a funding solution should be possible which would allow not only a badly needed dental school to be built on a greenfield site but also expansion of the capacity in Cork University Hospital, on whose campus the current dental school is located. Last December, according to the National Treatment Purchase Fund, 30,000 adults and more than 5,000 children were on the outpatient waiting lists at CUH. If a solution can be found to allow the construction of a new dental school on a greenfield site, not only will it allow more dentists to be trained in a modern facility, but it will also allow expansion in capacity at the CUH campus. We hope that a win-win funding solution can be found without delay; otherwise we fear that there will be a reduced number of dental graduates from Cork due to safety concerns which have been expressed by the dean of the school in Cork, Professor Brady.

We are working with the Department of enterprise and hope that some changes can be made to the work permits regime which will allow the employment of more dental nurses and hygienists especially. Given that most dentists operate on a self-employed basis, the scope for engaging extra dentists from outside the EEA is limited. We will also seek to engage with the Department of Justice on visa arrangements.

A final change which could be made by the Minister for Health would be to authorise the recognition of dental specialties. Both the Dental Council and the Irish Dental Association have called for nine additional specialties to be recognised to bring us into line with the UK especially.

This would undoubtedly help in the recruitment of badly needed extra specialists and consultants, it would reward those dentists who pursue further training, usually at their own expense, and it would provide greater clarity to the public in deciding on their treatment options. There is so much we need to see done and the State has a central role to play in enabling greater access to dental care, in ensuring patient safety, and that we have as many dentists as we need to provide the highest standard of dental care and treatment our citizens expect. The Irish Dental Association is more than ready to play its part. We need the Government to move from talk and plans to engaging with the association and delivering the necessary reforms and resources we have clearly identified to realise the ambitious goals of the WHO global oral health strategy. We will be happy to answer any questions and thank the members of the committee for their attention.

I now invite Mr. O'Flynn to give his opening statement.

Mr. David O'Flynn

I thank the Chair and the committee members for inviting us here today to talk about dental regulation. Next year will mark the 40th anniversary of the Dentists Act 1985. The Act is a legacy of a different time. As L.P. Hartley wrote, "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." The Dentists Act predates the Internet, emails and mobile phones. In 1985, five current members of the European Union did not exist as countries, Germany was two countries, the Czech Republic and Slovakia were one, and one third of the EU lay behind the Iron Curtain. It was the year of Live Aid and moving statues in Cork and it was the last time Mick O’Dwyer and Kevin Heffernan went head-to-head in an All-Ireland final. In that foreign country, the Dental Council was obliged by law, and still is, to write by prepaid post to all registrants on any matter concerning their registration.

On my first day as registrar of the Dental Council in June 2009, I met our line unit's principal officer from the Department of Health. We were in a greeting line waiting to meet Mary McAleese at a conference in Farmleigh House, and as we chatted, he told me that the Dentists Act would be looked at in 2010. The Dental Council has made submissions calling for the Dentists Act to be replaced in 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013 and 2021. I have been told by five consecutive Ministers for Health, including the present Taoiseach and his predecessor, that replacing the Dentists Act is a priority. I have been told this by two Secretaries General of the Department and countless other senior officials over the years. In the office, we joke that Mr. Paul Lyons and I are like the two characters in Waiting for Godot at the side of the road. We come in and we wait and wait. We have been waiting a very long time at this stage.

The current members of the Dental Council are concerned at their inability to protect the public. There have been a number of high-profile incidents recently that have attracted extensive media coverage, and gaps in regulation have been exposed, but nothing is served by the council having to continually point out deficiencies in the legislation when patients are harmed.

The Dental Council made its 2021 submission, entitled Regarding Legislative Change in Dental Regulation, to the Minister for Health at the request of his officials. This report synthesises the previous submissions made by the council, the learning and experience of each council since 2005 and, crucially, it is solution-focused. Uniquely, this submission is supported by both the regulator and the regulated. While it is very disappointing that it took more than two years to commence an engagement on the submission, we are pleased this has now happened. However, it is important to bear in mind that today the Dentists Act remains almost exactly as it was in 1985. The purpose of this statement is not to rake over the smouldering embers of the past but to point out as forcefully as I can that the public has been compromised and the public’s confidence in the profession eroded by a failure to update dental regulation.

I have listed 12 incidences in the appendix to this submission where I have become aware of serious matters where I have been unable to take effective action because of deficiencies in the Act. In each and every case, the Dental Council would have been able to take action if the recommendations in the 2021 submission had been implemented. Some examples of these deficiencies include becoming aware of unregistered dentists providing treatment to patients, including a person with a conviction for sexual assault, a person who repeatedly failed to diagnose a severe infection in a young child which put the child at severe risk of sepsis, and a person who had been erased from registers in two other European countries. I have received notifications from international regulators concerning approximately forty registered dentists who have had sanctions applied in other countries. The Dental Council was unable to act as these dentists were already on the Irish register when sanctioned. This is a crucial point. We can deal with those before they become registered, but after the registration happens, it is not possible. We have had some serious infection prevention and control matters brought to our attention, including a dentist working from a Portakabin, numerous incidences where there were concerns that instruments were not being properly sterilised, and a dentist leaving bloodied, extracted teeth on a radiator in full view of patients.

How can the Dental Council protect patients when the current Act does not allow it to enter a dental premises or to take account of overseas sanctions? On one occasion, a tattoo artist asked me to inspect her dentist's surgery. She was concerned the dentist was not sterilising his instruments properly and she saw them lying in a dirty sink. She outlined the processes she follows in her studio to prevent infection spreading, which were very similar to the Dental Council’s infection prevention and control, and she had valid concerns. She wanted the Dental Council to inspect, and she was incredulous that we had no power to enter or inspect a dental practice.

There are other concerns too. There is no statutory obligation on a dentist to maintain his or her competence. A dentist can leave dental school and, over a 40-year career, never be asked to demonstrate to the regulator that they remain competent to practise dentistry. Dentistry is an outlier in this regard, both in terms of regulated healthcare professions in Ireland and in dentistry internationally. There is unanimity among the dental community that a statutory competence scheme is required urgently.

A further concern is that there is no register of dental practices and no way to hold practice owners who are not dentists to account. Last year, "Prime Time" highlighted a case of an unregistered person practising dentistry in Drumcondra. The practice is not owned by a registered dentist and there is no way to hold the owners of this practice to account.

The Dental Council has found itself in the public eye on too many occasions over the past two years because of shortfalls in the Act. The Dental Council wants to do a comprehensive job of regulating the dental profession. We do not want to spend time on the airways pointing out deficiencies in legislation. The public is not well served by this and it distracts from our ability to do our work.

Bringing forward a new dentists Act is already Government policy and is one of the key action points in Smile agus Sláinte, the national oral health policy. We warmly welcome the establishment of the new oral health unit in the Department of Health. The establishment of the unit has the potential to make a significant and positive contribution to dentistry, both in the regulatory framework and service delivery. The Dental Council recognises the positive and collaborative engagement we have had with the unit over the past six months. While I recognise the political reality is that it will not be possible to start work on a new dentists Act before the next general election, there are other measures that must be considered in the short term. At the Department’s request, we submitted three measures we believe would significantly enhance public protection and public confidence. These could be readily provided by amending the current Dentists Act. These are not groundbreaking or novel suggestions but they will immediately enhance public safety. These include introducing a statutory competence scheme, allowing the Dental Council to inspect the display of registration certificates and to confirm that clinical staff are appropriately registered, and providing a legislative framework which strengthens the Dental Council’s ability to regulate the quality of dental education.

While the recent collaboration with the Department has been extremely positive, it has not yet achieved any measurable results. We have always been, and will continue to be, ready to contribute our knowledge and experience to achieve a better system of regulation for dental patients. The Dental Council has been given many commitments over the years but we hope this time that change is imminent. My takeaway message for this committee is that the main problem with the Dentists Act 1985 is that it generally only allows the Dental Council to act in retrospect, effectively after the harm has been done. A modern system of regulation must allow the regulator to take proactive steps to try to take action before harm is done. I urge the members to read our submission Regarding Legislative Change in Dental Regulation, a copy of which I circulated to the committee, and to view it as a roadmap to making dental regulation more effective and relevant for the needs of the 21st century. The Dentist Council would like to consign the Dentists Act 1985 to the library shelves of a long ago and distant time.

I thank the committee members for their time.

I now invite members in for questions. Senator Conway will lead us off.

I thank my colleague Deputy Durkan for facilitating me going ahead because I have commitments in the Seanad. I thank the witnesses for being here. The fact they have been here three times during the lifetime of this particular health committee amplifies the commitment this committee has to advancing oral healthcare and dental care in this country. We are as frustrated as anybody else and as they are at the lack of progress, particularly regarding new legislation. What concerns me most, to be frank, is the fact that 75% of dentists registered with the Dental Council do not accommodate medical card patients. If 75% of GPs in this country did not accommodate medical card patients, we would have a serious problem.

Dentistry is probably the Cinderella of the health services in this country. What do the witnesses see as necessary to do in order to ensure that more than 25% of dentists accommodate medical card patients? How much more needs to be done by the Department in order for more dentists to engage in this extremely important programme? Only three out of four medical card patients can access the service. In County Clare, there are only one or two dentists who will accommodate them. It is totally unacceptable. I consider it a crisis. What needs to be done to address it? What engagements have the witnesses had with the Department on these issues in recent times? Have they had a face-to-face meeting with the Minister to discuss them?

Mr. O'Flynn and Mr. Hourihan might direct me as to who would be best to answer those questions.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I will make a brief comment before asking Dr. Rymer, who was involved in the scheme until recently, to respond. The positive news is that 90% of dentists want to see a State scheme operating for medical card patients. Obviously, if only one in four is in the current scheme, it suggests that people are not happy with its operation. What would it take to encourage more dentists to participate? It would take an entirely new approach. Some years ago, we commissioned research from a health economist. We put forward a proposal as to how it might operate. Dr. Rymer will tell the Senator his own reasons for leaving the scheme and the many reasons dentists have for not believing the current system is viable. In short, we would say that tweaking the existing scheme will not work. An entirely new scheme is required.

Dr. Will Rymer

I thank committee members for the invitation to attend today's meeting. I want to underline how seriously the situation has deteriorated. Dentistry, particularly under the medical card scheme, has deteriorated to the point that it is now in a perilous state. There is a growing inequality between private patients availing of private dentistry and medical card patients.

There were significant cuts to the medical card scheme in 2010. If those cuts had not happened, there would have been a further €1 billion of investment in dentistry in Ireland. What we are seeing now, in 2024, is the aftermath of those cuts. In 2014, there were 1,600 dentists working under the scheme, which equates to treatment of 430,000 patients. Today, 810 dentists have contracts to work under the scheme and we understand fewer than 600 of them are active. The Senator highlighted the situation in County Clare. There are 13 dentists in the county who have a contract but the likelihood is that a significant number of them are not in a position to take new patients. When there is a cut in the number of dentists offering treatment under the medical card scheme, all of those patients potentially become condensed into single-handed practices, where the dentist does not have the physical capacity to see any more patients.

Mr. Hourihan indicated that Dr. Rymer left the scheme recently. How recently did he do so?

Dr. Will Rymer

I left the scheme in 2017. I was working as an associate in a practice for many years. As the Senator may be able to tell from my accent, I am a Welsh graduate, not an Irish graduate. I am NHS-trained and born and bred with the availability of the NHS. It was natural for me to move into the medical card scheme when I arrived in Ireland. Unfortunately, even in 2009 and 2010, the medical card scheme was not and is not the NHS. When the cuts were made in 2010, the quality of the dentistry we were able to provide was significantly impacted. We have seen a trend over time. I saw patients and offered them a level of care for which the service allows. Over the course of five, six or seven years, I saw the quality of their dentition deteriorate. I was providing a good standard of work but I was very limited as to how much care I could provide in a particular period. The patients I saw when I first arrived in Ireland now have missing teeth, dentures and heavily restored teeth. I would have liked to be able to offer a lot more.

I move on to the issue of graduate dentists. Are dentists moving abroad after graduating in similar numbers to graduate doctors and nurses? Have the witnesses identified that as a significant problem? Are many dentists returning to Ireland after going abroad following graduation?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The main providers of dental graduates are the dental schools in Cork and Dublin. There is also a school in Belfast. Approximately 90 dentists graduate each year from the schools in Cork and Dublin. Of that number, a majority originate from outside the EEA. They may be coming from the Far East, for example, or Canada. Our experience is that the vast majority of those students, when they complete their education in Cork or Dublin, go back to their countries of origin.

Mr. David O'Flynn

I have some information from the register of dentists that might enlighten the committee's consideration of this matter. Most of the dentists who graduate in Ireland register with the Irish Dental Council, which indicates that they are willing and ready to practise here. Of the 90 graduates each year, there are always a number who are from outside the European Union and who may return home. We register between 70 and 80 dentists each year. The vast majority of dentists trained in Ireland register here, with a small number going abroad. Among the people restoring their names to the register or applying for registration for the first time, the number of returning Irish graduates tends to be small. It seems to be the case that Irish graduates tend to stay here and do not move abroad. That is a recent trend. Going back ten or 15 years, things would have been different, but that seems to be the trend now.

On the previous occasion the witnesses attended the committee, I raised the issue of Ukrainian dentists being allowed to practise here. Have they any figures on the number of Ukrainian dentists who have been certified for practice in Ireland?

Mr. David O'Flynn

I do not have the exact number. The Senator can take it from the figures I am about to give that the vast majority of the people in question are Ukrainian. The Dental Council has created a new pathway to registration for any dentist who has been granted international protection in Ireland. That covers Ukrainians and also Afghans, Syrians and Yemenis. The Dental Council has received applications from about 176 people who have been granted international protection. We have a process for assessing those applications. Somewhere in the order of 140 have been assessed or are in the process of being assessed. Approximately 90 of them have been either registered fully or offered a period of adaptation in which they are entitled to practise. We are looking at a situation where about two thirds of those who have applied are able to enter the workforce, either directly as fully independent practitioners or under a period of adaptation.

I have just over a minute remaining to me. The Dental Council has made a written submission outlining the improvements needed in legislation. Will Mr. O'Flynn summarise that submission to ensure it is on the record of the committee? What are the three or four key asks on which the Dental Council has been given commitments by various Ministers and which it would like to see implemented?

Mr. David O'Flynn

There are two key elements. One, as I mentioned, is the introduction of a statutory competence scheme for dentists. The other element, on which we agree with the Irish Dental Association in its submission, is the need for comprehensive regulation of dental practices. That regulation should have three legs to it. One is a register that would tell us who owns dental practices. The second is a statutory code of conduct. The third is the ability to inspect practices. The whole practice regulation aspect is the key element that is missing at the moment. It probably is a development for the longer term but we hope a continued competence scheme is something we could work on in the short term.

I thank the witnesses.

I welcome all the witnesses. My first question is for Mr. O'Flynn. We met to discuss some of these issues some time ago. I thank him for that engagement and for his attendance today at the committee. Proper regulation is not a lot for which to ask. In fact, a lot of people would be amazed that we do not have proper regulation of dentistry, including a statutory code of conduct, and that the Dental Council does not have the ability to inspect practices. All of these elements are basic tenets of regulation. I am aware that the Irish Dental Association has been very supportive of changes in this area.

Mr. O'Flynn's opening statement reads as though the Dental Council has been sent off on a wild goose chase.

There have been four Ministers for Health. A great deal of lobbying has been done by the witnesses' organisation, but no action has been taken. The Dental Council has set out what needs to be done. What is the most recent contact it has had with the Department or the Minister? Is there a sense that there will finally be movement and that legislation that will deal with these issues will be forthcoming? I am asking about the most recent engagement. Mr. O'Flynn referred to previous Ministers and people who work in the Department. What is the sense right now of where things might go in the short term?

Mr. David O'Flynn

There has been a positive change in the Department of Health and in our engagement with it in the past six months. The Irish Dental Council met the Minister in January. He gave a commitment to look at some amending legislation if possible. As I acknowledged earlier, the political reality is that a new Act is much further down the line. A significant factor in the improvement has been the establishment of the oral health unit in the Department. We have had good engagement with that unit at an executive level on the matters we raised in our submission, and it has been quite positive and collaborative. It is probably still at an early stage, but we were invited at Christmas to submit three items we felt needed urgent regulatory change. We submitted those, which concern a small element of practice inspection, a competence scheme and some improvements around the way-----

Has the council had any contact since the meeting the Minister? Was there any follow-up to suggest that there has been some movement on legislation?

Mr. David O'Flynn

We have engagement every month or six weeks between the executive and the officials in the oral health unit of the Department. It has been a positive engagement. It has not led to anything concrete yet, but the direction of travel is good. If we had been here 12 months ago, I would probably have had a different picture of that. There has been a change in recent times.

That is something the committee can follow up on. The Minister is working on a number of health (miscellaneous) Bills. Perhaps he intends for one of those Bills to deal with this. We can take the matter up with him. I thank Mr. O'Flynn. We need to get those changes.

I thank the Dental Council for the work it does. Mr. O'Flynn stated earlier that "the members of the current council are becoming increasingly concerned at the limits to their ability to protect the public". It is also our job to ensure dentists have the tools, power and authority to deal with concerns that arise. I hope there will be progress.

I will move on to the Irish Dental Association. I want to discuss a few issues with Mr. Hourihan. They were in the public domain recently and were addressed at the Irish Dental Association's conference. I thank him for the advocacy work he does.

The first issue is dental screening. In first, second, fourth and sixth classes, assessments are done for children. I understand that last year 200,000 children were eligible but that only 100,000 were actually screened. I am looking at the most recent response I got to a parliamentary question which charts the number of children who were screened or had an assessment. In quarter 4 of 2018, at the end of 2018, 152,000 children were screened or had an assessment; yet at the end of 2023 that number dropped to 104,000. That is a significant drop. One in two young people are not getting the assessments they need. Is that solely down to capacity in the public system? Is that the main reason the system is not able to ensure all children get the assessments they need?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Yes, it is solely down to capacity. There has not been any change in policy. There simply are not enough dentists to visit the children in schools. As I said earlier, going back to 1994, there was a commitment that children would be seen in intervals, in three different classes in primary school. The experience is that now many are not seen in second class or fourth class; they are only seen in sixth class, although in some pockets of the country they are seen more than once. We looked at the number of pupils based on Department of Education data and information provided through parliamentary questions on the numbers who have been screened. To reiterate the point, some of the 104,000 are children who were seen at second level. Therefore, the number of children who did not receive screening in primary school last year is considerably greater than 100,000.

I will read into the record a response to a parliamentary question I received on this issue. I asked the Minister about his plans to increase the number of dentists working in the public service. The response came from the assistant national director for oral health. She says that the recruitment embargo is still in place and that relates to the number of staff employed by the HSE. She also states that the embargo does not allow the HSE to appoint any dental staff at present, other than at consultant level, and that while the embargo is in place, no additional staff will be appointed. It is quite clear from the response that while there may be an ambition to hire more staff, it simply cannot be done because of the embargo. That shows that the embargo is having an impact on front line healthcare and in this area. That is a political issue that I will not get into with the association.

I will turn to my final issue, which is important. I have discussed it privately with the Irish Dental Association and raised it publicly. It is the dental treatment service scheme, DTSS. I am looking at the most recent figures I received. In 2012, 1,452 dentists were registered with the scheme. Currently, there are 810 registered. Not all of those are active. The Minister for Health has appeared before the committee. He has asked the association to step up to the plate and encourage dentists to come back. We have an obligation to ensure medical card holders get the dental treatment they need. I understand there are issues with the contract and the association discussed those concerns with the committee in the past. Does Mr. Hourihan accept that it is a difficult situation that some medical card patients cannot access dental care because dentists have left the scheme? We want there to be engagement between the Minister and the association and we want action. We need this to be resolved. I have to ask Mr. Hourihan as the head of the association whether there is more the association can do to try to resolve this issue. These disputes are always resolved through dialogue. There must be goodwill and trust, but members of this committee all receive representations from our constituents who raise this with us all the time. I have also been lobbied by some of my party colleagues who represent different parts of the country in recent times. I want to put on the record my frustration that this issue has not been resolved. I agree that the Minister has a responsibility, but so does everyone. That is my point. I will give my final minute and a half to allow Mr. Hourihan respond on those issues.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We accept that there is a serious problem. We see that there is an onus on the association as well as the Minister. This problem will need a two-stage approach. First, an interim solution is needed to stop the worsening of the situation. Second, a longer term solution is needed, which would be a very different scheme. The Deputy may be aware that we have proposed a different model. In recent times, as we are prohibited by competition law from compelling members to sign up to State schemes, we have suggested to the HSE and the Department of Health that as an interim measure that we would discuss an emergency scheme where care would be provided in HSE clinics in the evenings and on weekends on a voluntary basis by both public and private dentists. We have had a few meetings with the HSE and the Department, and we are due to have a further meeting on that specific issue.

To concur with Mr. O'Flynn, I see a change in the level of interest of and engagement by senior officials in the Department. I acknowledge that. I hope that means we will now see something come out of it. On the specifics, there is a serious problem with the DTSS. It needs to be completely replaced. We do not see it as a viable scheme. We have said an interim scheme through HSE clinics where there is capacity in the evenings should be considered and we have put forward proposals to that effect. Ultimately, however, it will require the Minister to direct his officials to talk to us about a new scheme. That has not happened so far. I acknowledge the officials are more engaged. I hope that means talks will start sooner rather than later.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. There is no doubt that dentistry seems to be the forgotten branch of healthcare. While progress has been made in most other branches of healthcare, it is baffling that dentists are stuck in a pre-FEMPI situation and that the legislation is so outdated.

I would love to know why this is the case. Is the blockage or deaf ear in the Department, the HSE, or both? I am glad to hear about the new oral health unit and that some progress is being made, however slow, in that regard. Is there a reason for the lack of interest on the part of the Department? Can anybody explain why that has been the case?

Mr. David O'Flynn

As regards the legislation, I cannot explain why that has been the case. Looking at where we are now compared with where we were 12 months ago and that change, it is-----

Okay. It is good that something has happened in recent months.

Mr. David O'Flynn

The establishment of the oral health unit is key in that.

Has the Irish Dental Council been dealing with the Department all along? It is obviously the Department from the point of view of legislation.

Mr. David O'Flynn

On legislation, it is the Department.

Where is the blockage for the IDA?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Ultimately, there are competing demands and interests. Any Minister or set of officials will decide to prioritise certain items. The second three-year programme under Sláintecare is expiring. The indications from the Department are that it sees there should be an explicit commitment to addressing the need to make changes in dentistry and oral health in the new three-year plan. We take that as a positive indicator. We have been as vocal and active as we can possibly be in advocating for reform and change. It has not been reciprocated. I do not think anybody is ignoring or has anything against us but it just has not been a priority for successive-----

Okay. I will ask the Irish Dental Council representatives about the three short-term measures it proposed. Do these entail primary legislation or are they talking about a statutory instrument or change in regulations?

Mr. David O'Flynn

It would be amending primary legislation. These measures are provided for under the generality of the Long Title of the existing Dentists Act. It would not necessarily involve the establishment of new policy but rather reinforcing some of the measures in the Dentists Act.

Is there no possibility of that being done by regulation?

Mr. David O'Flynn

Not as regards continued competence. If you want to compel a dentist to actually do that and, potentially, put his or her registration in jeopardy, it would require primary legislation.

I will ask the IDA about the schemes involved. What exactly is the problem in respect of medical card patients? Is it the reimbursement rate or the fact there is a supply-and-demand issue? The FEMPI cuts were spoken about. Where do we currently stand regarding the reimbursement rates relative to what IDA members charge for private patients?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The fees paid could be anywhere between 50% and 60% of what is charged to private patients. Dentists obviously have to recover their costs because, as I said, they do not get any State support towards their operating costs. Effectively, for people in the medical card scheme, dentists are cross-subsidising them from their private patients. As Dr. Rymer said, apart from the economics of it, and we saw a significant increase in fees just a few years ago, the problem is this has ultimately made no real difference to the participation by dentists or treatments provided, which confirms this is not about money. There are restrictions on the treatments that can be provided and rules that do not allow dentists to provide the same level of care to medical card patients. It is a real problem if there are four dentists in a town, two or three of whom were on the medical card scheme previously, but that town is then left with one. As patients, unlike those under medical doctors, are not assigned to a panel for a specific doctor, all the patients will then arrive at the door of the one last, standing dentist in the scheme and that is-----

Leaving aside the IDA's concerns about treatments that are covered, is the reimbursement rate close to what dentists charge?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

No.

Dr. Will Rymer

It is not close to what we are charging. One of the drivers for the increasing cost of private dentistry is the fact that we had to use private patients to subsidise the care of medical card patients.

Will the IDA provide us with some information on what the average charges for private patients are relative to what the reimbursement is for medical card patients? I am not asking for that now. Could it provide a note for us?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I do not have this in front of me, but we surveyed members previously on that. Trinity College did some research-----

Maybe the IDA could arrange a note for the committee on that.

I will move on to the issue of HSE dentists. What exactly is the issue there? Is it that sufficient posts have not been created? Are there vacant posts? Why is there an insufficient supply? Is there an issue regarding salaries and so on? Will the witnesses explain some of that?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

This has been a long-running problem that has gradually got worse over the years. On the one hand, the number of eligible patients has increased, which creates pressure on existing staff, but the number of existing staff has not been kept at the same level. What we sometimes find, and the current situation is that there is an embargo, is some latitude may be shown towards hiring dentists but if a dental nurse cannot be hired to work alongside a dentist, a clinic cannot be opened. That is a very real issue. In terms of-----

A point was made about the current recruitment embargo, but what about prior to that? What is the issue? Were there not enough posts or were people not applying?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Not enough posts were sanctioned. Any time somebody leaves, he or she is not automatically replaced, whether that person retires or simply leaves. Decisions were being made pretty much on an ad hoc basis. The HSE operates within envelopes of staffing in the service locally. Ultimately, there is a lot of competition to hire dentists. Dentists in private practice are looking to hire dentists, as is the HSE. A cohort of dentists would like to work in the HSE because that is their interest. The point I made about the uncertainty about the whole future of the service is making it more difficult. If I am a young, ambitious dentist who wants to work with children or special care patients, and I think about joining the HSE, I will also be aware that there is uncertainty about the service because the current Minister is saying children should be seen in private practice. That young dentist will then be concerned, if he or she joins the HSE, about whether there will be work for him or her.

Whether there is a future, okay. That tendency to outsource what should be public work has, unfortunately, become a feature of the current approach to the provision of services, which is very regrettable. Is the salary and so on adequate? Does it recognise the training and what would be expected?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There is not information on income or earnings, but because there is a shortage in private practice it is probably becoming more lucrative to work in private practice. There has always been and always will be a gap between public and private, but it has probably widened for labour market reasons.

To get back to the issue of supply and demand, which seems to be an underlying issue impacting many of these problems, how is the number of training places determined at present? I do not know whether Mr. O'Flynn has covered this, but will he clarify what is happening in existing dental schools regarding the number of places for Irish trainees? What is that number relative to the number of non-Irish trainees?

Mr. David O'Flynn

I am talking off the top of my head as I do not have the exact figures. On average, the two schools have approximately 45 students per year as an intake.

How is that number determined?

Mr. David O'Flynn

Approximately three quarters of that comes through the CAO system or the mature code system. Those are open to Irish and EEA people. The balance is generally non-EEA students. The number is by and large determined by the schools and is built into the funding model.

Sorry, is that the number of overall places or the split between-----

Mr. David O'Flynn

It is the number of overall places, yes. The dental council's role in this relates to the quality of the programme rather than the number. The number is pretty much at the discretion of the colleges and dental schools to determine. The number in the CAO system is set through the HEA funding model.

There are a number of additional places that schools use. This is not common just to the two schools in Ireland, it is an international practice in which places are given to fee-paying students who pay a higher rate. Effectively, it is used as part of balancing a budget-----

Mr. David O'Flynn

It is probably three quarters Irish-EEA places, in that order.

Dr. Rory Boyd

To give some clear detail, there are 46 final year students this year in Trinity, 25 of whom are from EU countries and 21 of whom are from non-EU states. There are 61 final year students in UCC.

That is quite different from what Mr. O'Flynn said, is it not?

Mr. David O'Flynn

The numbers-----

Apologies; I interrupted Dr. Boyd. Will he continue his point?

Dr. Rory Boyd

To show the stark reality of the numbers in UCC, there are 61 students qualifying this year, 25 of whom are EU citizens and 36 of whom are from non-EU states.

The majority are not from the EU.

Dr. Rory Boyd

Yes. It is approximately 60%. I teach in the dental school. We have not seen an increase in funding to dental schools over the past 15 years. That gap has been filled by recruiting overseas students at up to €50,000 a year. Overall, in both dentistry and dental auxiliary, more than 300 students are enrolled in Trinity and UCC. Approximately 50% of them are from non-EU countries. In the context of comparing our issues with regard to workforce and recruitment, I welcome what the Royal College of Surgeons will be doing next year and the fact that the Government will possibly be providing an increase in funding. This is a short-term issue that can be solved relatively readily if the dental school is properly funded and does not have to fill the gap with international students.

The failure by Government to adequately fund a sufficient number of places in order that the schools are not dependent on non-EEA students is a problem. Unless there is a continuous supply of dentists, you will run into these kinds of problems.

Dr. Will Rymer

If you want to expand the number of graduates in English, you can just put more people on rows of seats. With dentistry and dental education, a good deal of equipment needs to be provided and it takes up a considerable amount of space, which I know is severely lacking in Cork in particular.

I will begin with the council. I am seeking clarity. The council met the Minister in January. It wrote to the Minister in October of last year. Was that meeting in response to that letter?

Dr. Gerry Cleary

To go back to the point Deputy Cullinane made, the Dental Council has serious concerns about the matters we are discussing today. The letter to which Deputy Hourigan referred was the council taking the bull by the horns in order to try to raise the matter. We are grateful that the oral health unit has been established. We genuinely believe, as reflected by the Irish Dental Association's comments, that there is movement. We particularly welcome Deputy Cullinane's comment that this committee will do everything it can to support and develop the green shoots that are there. I know Mr. O'Flynn, who has been with the Dental Council for 15 years, has a sense that this is a different process at the moment. Anything this committee can do to support the green shoots, if you want to call them that, of what has been happening with the oral health unit since the start of the year would be extremely welcome. We think there also may be an opportunity to effect some of the changes to which Deputy Shortall alluded and which were outlined in our opening statement. It was an important letter. It seems to have opened a few doors.

It resulted in a meeting. Did the Dental Council receive a formal written response?

Dr. Gerry Cleary

No, but as opposed to having a meeting for the sake of it, action appears to have followed. There has been meaningful engagement by the Department with the Dental Council since that meeting. We must acknowledge that the Minister has appeared to instruct his officials to engage at a serious level.

Further engagement is scheduled.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

Yes; next week, in fact.

That is good to hear. To go back to the issue of the statutory competency scheme, it appears that the longer established professions have undertaken a number of revisions to their oversight and governance in recent years. I am quite surprised - I am actually shocked - that there is no competency scheme. Is there a system or scheme of continued professional development? Is it mandatory?

Dr. Gerry Cleary

Dentists are ethically obliged, and that is it. There is no mandatory nature to it. I have been a dentist for 41 years. I have registered 40 times with the Dental Council. I have never had to show that I am competent to be registered. It is shocking.

It is outrageous.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

It is outrageous. Deputy Hourigan is absolutely right.

All professionals have an ethical requirement, whether they are constructing buildings or looking after people's teeth, to ensure that they enter into continued professional development, because technology changes. I do not understand how this is the case when every other established profession has mandatory continued professional development.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

We commend the Irish Dental Association-----

I am intrigued. I do not know how this has passed by-----

Dr. Gerry Cleary

It offers significant opportunities and we have a high uptake of people involved in continuing professional development within dentistry, which is fantastic.

It is entirely voluntary.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

It is self-imposed. It is you being ethical and responsible. There is no compulsory nature to it at all. It is most shocking. In my career in dentistry, there have been five revolutions. Not evolutions - revolutions. Mr. O'Flynn has no idea whether I know anything about any of those. It is disgraceful.

Dr. Rory Boyd

Rarely in a football match will you get the players and the referee both calling for more regulation. In the profession, we are also crying out for compulsory CPD, as is the council.

Compulsory CPD is the basic of almost every profession.

Dr. Rory Boyd

Completely agreed.

How does one secure insurance in a profession that has no compulsory CPD?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

There are a couple of options. There are mutual bodies that offer occurrence-based cover and indemnity cover. It costs between €5,000, €10,000 and €20,000 a year. There is an insurance provider.

Is €20,000 per year per practice or per individual?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Per dentist. It depends on the area of dentistry you practice. It is possible to get indemnity cover. There are three significant providers in Ireland. All of the indemnifying bodies would agree - we all have common cause. We all want to promote the highest standards of care, protect patients from unscrupulous people and ensure, as Dr. Cleary said, that people get up to speed with new technology. There have been massive changes in the practice of dentistry. There are significant numbers of dentists on top of that but there is no way of verifying or proving that to be the case.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

At the fundamental and basic level, Smile agus Sláinte is there but none of the aspirational aspects of that can be implemented without the ship turning. The only way the ship can be turned is with continuing professional development. Not only is it poor based on all of the points the Deputy raised, looking to the future, we cannot aspire to the changes within the Smile agus Sláinte national oral health policy without continuing development to change the direction the Government wants the profession to take.

I know none of the witnesses are in the business of insurance but it seems that if you could ensure professional competency through some kind of mandatory scheme, that might impact the rates of insurance. That is a fairly basic principle in actuary or insurance. That might deal with some of the costs in the private sector, certainly. Is that a fair assumption?

Mr. Paul Lyons

I would like to add a point. I am sure my colleagues in the association will concur. We would not want the joint committee to form the view that dentists wholesale are not maintaining their competence.

Anecdotally, it is very much our sense that the vast majority are doing everything that is expected of them. Unfortunately, we cannot assure the Deputy as to those numbers or the specifics. As a regulatory body, we do not think that is good enough.

I take the point. I do not mean to characterise the situation in that way. However, considering what I know about other professions in this country and their associated obligations regarding mandatory continuing professional development, I am surprised that this is the case.

Mr. Paul Lyons

That is understandable.

Dr. Will Rymer

Every time this issue is raised, somebody's jaw hits the floor. It is astounding. We raise it year after year. There is an alarm bell going off to the effect that this is a crisis. The whole ecosystem of dentistry in Ireland needs to change. There are fundamental things that must happen first before any of the changes we are discussing can follow. The changes the council representatives are talking about regarding regulation are absolutely vital.

I take it as read that the vast majority of people in dental practice would welcome some more verifiable means of regulation. I see all the witnesses nodding their heads. We do not have a register of dental practices. I will use the two minutes remaining to me to talk about that. Reference was made to a practice somewhere in Drumcondra, which is in the constituency I represent. That is particularly concerning. We might call such places rogue practices. There is a growing interest in veneer technicians. What is the witnesses' understanding of the prevalence of that type of rogue practice? I direct that question to both sets of witnesses. How can people be confident that they are not entering into that type of situation? A website might look very professional and all the rest but people need to know the dangers and what the prevalence of such dangers is at this time.

Mr. David O'Flynn

It is hard to put an exact figure on it. We are getting anecdotal information about potential rogue practitioners. We try to take action where we can. The practice in Drumcondra, which was the subject of a "Prime Time" special last year, is a case in point. It is owned by someone who is not a dentist. There is a serious lack at present in terms of our inability to check who is working in practices.

I see there being two solutions to this problem. The short-term solution is the amending legislation I mentioned in my opening statement, which would allow the council at least to visit a practice and check that the clinicians are properly registered and that their certificates are displayed as appropriate. In the longer term, and this feeds into questions around service delivery throughout the country, no one knows exactly how many dental practices there are, where they are, how busy they are, how many dentists are working in them or anything like that. That information is not there.

Is Mr. O'Flynn aware of any body of the State that is collecting that type of information?

Mr. David O'Flynn

It is done in a piecemeal way. There are bits of information held by different entities but no overall collection of data. No one knows who the owners are of all the different dental practices. There is nowhere that such information is centrally held.

That is terrifying. I thank the witnesses for their responses.

This has been a very interesting discussion. I want to go back to the future, as Marty McFly did, to 1985 and the Dentists Act of that year. In terms of oral health nationally, where are we at now? Are we in a better place today than we were in 1985? I am aware this is a very general question but I would like to start there.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Dr. Robins, who arrived in Ireland soon after that time, might describe her experience.

Dr. Caroline Robins

One would like to think we are in a better place now. However, we are continually seeing the results of the lack of resourcing and capacity to provide the care children need at key milestones in their lives. The public scheme is targeted at second, fourth and sixth classes. Those ages were chosen to coincide with important developmental stages in children's lives, health and oral development. The key was to be able to screen children to enable us to protect their teeth, prevent future tooth decay and, most importantly, educate parents and children on how best to look after teeth through diet, home care and all the basic things we hope they will continue at home. As a consequence of the lack of capacity in the scheme, these children are not being seen. Is the situation any better now than it was in 1985? No, I do not feel it is. I am still seeing too many children walk through my door with dental decay issues.

I had a case in point yesterday. A lovely nine-year-old boy was brought in to see me by his grandfather for his first dental checkup. He had no pain and no perceived problem. He told me he is in third class. The grandfather said he decided to bring the boy in because he was not seen in second class. His grandfather felt it was important to take him to see me. When I examined this delightful boy, I discovered a beautiful first adult molar with quite a decent-sized cavity. The granddad said he thought it was a baby tooth. It goes back to the fact that our ability to educate at an earlier stage is being missed. We are not able to do that. Prevention is so much cheaper than cure. We go on and on about prevention. It is the long game of helping children in our society and also helping the Exchequer with a saving of millions of euro in the future. Has the situation improved in Ireland? On the basis of my day-to-day experience as a clinician, I say it has not. I am still seeing far too much untreated dental disease in the patients walking through my door.

How much of a factor is social class in oral health? There are, obviously, flaws in the medical card scheme. If access to dental healthcare is to be largely on a private basis, people in particular social class groupings are at a disadvantage in accessing that care.

Dr. Caroline Robins

We agree with that and we know it is the case. The beauty of the public dental service, if it were properly resourced and funded, is that it is targeted. All children, regardless of who they are, where they are in the county and their economic position, would be offered an appointment. In private practice, I see children whose parents bring them in to me regularly for checkups, cleaning and preventative treatment. However, there will always be a percentage of parents who will not do that. Our concern is that pushing children aged zero to seven into private practice will see us run into this problem. We are losing the lovely targeting that gets to every single child. If provision goes private, there will always be parents who will not take their children to a dentist or may not be in a position to take them. We have a wonderful system made up of clinics and excellent clinicians who are well versed in looking after children. The public scheme, if funded properly and given adequate capacity, provides an excellent service to every single child.

Dr. Rory Boyd

If we look at any epidemiological study that considers the incidence of decayed, missing and filled teeth, DMFT, which is an index we use, we see that socioeconomic status is a key factor. The original programme was put in place to target those vulnerable patients who would not otherwise avail of preventative care and oral hygiene information, which are the two cornerstones of treatment and prevention of disease over a lifetime. We have seen the continued demise of that system over the past number of years, as indicated by the 100,000 children missing out on dental appointments. The whole idea of the system was to target those vulnerable cases. Socioeconomic status is a massive factor. As Dr. Robins said, if provision gets pushed into private practice, the targeted approach is gone and those vulnerable patients will not be seen in private practice, regardless of whether it is helped by the State. That is why the HSE system was put in place in the first instance.

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

Much of what I would have said on this point has already been said. I work at the end of a system where children come under general anaesthesia to have extractions done. Currently, there are 350 children on our waiting list. We have diminished access to time in theatre to treat them. Overwhelmingly, they are from disadvantaged socioeconomic groups. It may be that their access to care is limited by their ability to receive care. They may have medical or behavioural conditions that limit their access to routine dentistry.

Overwhelmingly the patients who come to us for that kind of care, and I am talking about very small children needing multiple teeth taken out, are the children who are ahead of even the planned screening by the HSE's school dental service.

Is that rare?

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

No. I routinely take out 20 teeth for two-year-old children.

Is that normal?

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

I refer to the children who have managed to grow that many teeth. I am talking about clearances of teeth in really small children. It is appalling. It is distressing for the people who care for them, not least for the children and their parents who listen to the children in pain for weeks, months and sometimes years beforehand.

Is it fair to say that children will probably only get one screening over the lifetime of their primary education?

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

Sometimes not even that.

I was in school in the 1980s and I remember the dentist visited every year.

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

There are parts of this country where children are not screened at all in the primary school system.

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

Zero. Some children will have reached secondary school before they have their first visit.

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

It is way too late.

My final question relates to the proliferation of dental treatment abroad. Obviously it is a very popular phenomenon, whether it is for cosmetic or other dental care. The big driver of that is the cost abroad, which is a fraction of the cost in Ireland. Are our guests worried about the proliferation of this new phenomenon of dental healthcare abroad?

Dr. Rory Boyd

Dental tourism has got a lot of media coverage over the last 12 months plus. Dr. Cleary and I work in an area of dentistry that ends up dealing with a lot of the cases that return home so we both have very personal experience of cases where treatment is not appropriate or is not up to scratch. We need to be very careful when talking about treatment abroad and delineate between those who went abroad with a treatment need and those who went abroad for elective or cosmetic treatment, as suggested by the Deputy.

The number of people I see in practice who went abroad with a treatment need, such as pain, an infection or oral disease, is very few. The number of patients that I see who went abroad for elective treatment, such as cosmetic veneers or crowns to improve or change the appearance of their teeth, is very high and generally in the younger demographic. We need to delineate between those who are being forced to go abroad with a treatment need, which is because they cannot avail of treatment here, and those who travel purely for cost reasons for larger cosmetic reconstructions. In general, the latter are the ones with bigger problems that I see.

The Deputy is correct that there has been a massive increase in the number of people who travel abroad for treatment, regardless of their reasons. We must be quite clear that just because people travel abroad for treatment does not mean their treatment will be sub par. A lot of jurisdictions across the world have fabulous treatment. The problem is that we are seeing an increase in the number of people coming back with sub-par treatment.

What can dentists do when somebody presents for treatment while suffering serious difficulties following dental treatment abroad?

Dr. Rory Boyd

In general, people in that situation present to their general practitioner and declare that they have had, say, 20 crowns placed abroad but now have pain and symptoms. That is a very complex case to rehabilitate. The patient is usually referred on to a person with expertise and skills to rehabilitate that mouth. Unfortunately, such treatment comes with a specialist-style cost, which is what the patient was trying to avoid in the first place. It then lies in the hands of the private practitioners who are competent to rehabilitate that to take responsibility for that work, but the trail must end somewhere. Practitioners such as ourselves do treat such cases but many practitioners will not do so because they do not know the materials and techniques involved or what lies beneath. Once you get involved in a case like that, it is now yours. Only a few practitioners in this country will take on the reconstruction of these lengthy and very costly cases, and it will be a very long journey for the patient before he or she gets back to health.

I propose we take a short break, after which we will resume the discussion.

Sitting suspended at 11.05 a.m. and resumed at 11.17 a.m.

We will resume and I call on Deputy Crowe.

I join others in welcoming our witnesses. I apologise for not being here earlier this morning because I was at another meeting. I do not mind who answers my first question. We are now more au fait with the number of doctors and nurses in acute hospitals who have come into Ireland from beyond the European Economic Area after availing of D visas. Do the witnesses have any metrics on dentists and dental nurses who have been coming in using the mechanism of D visas for healthcare?

Mr. David O'Flynn

I might answer that. I do not who is using D visas but I can give the Deputy details of the process by which dentists, particularly, and auxiliary dental workers gain registration in Ireland. It would be assumed that if they are gaining registration, they must have the visa or access to the visa. Non-EEA dentists must sit and pass an examination here. I would say that 10% of dentists registering each year are people who have come through that process. We assess applications for dental nurses, dental hygienists and clinical dental technicians as well. The numbers coming through from non-EEA countries in those areas are very small. Based on the number of people who are registering, the impact seems to be small. Perhaps the IDA would have a greater insight based on its experience of practice.

Can I ask-----

Does Mr. Hourihan want to answer?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It is difficult to give precise data. There are not many of them. Mr. O'Flynn has recorded the experience there, certainly with the regulated dentists and hygienists. It is very difficult to say with regard to dental nurses. Earlier I made the point that because dentists, in particular, are typically self-employed rather than employees, the work permits do not really assist. It is more of a question around visas rather than permits.

Okay. I will explain the reason I ask. This is anecdotal. I am not a dentist and have no training or expertise in any of this. When the war in Ukraine was kicking off and we had many Ukrainians arriving in our country, I recall a Ukrainian-qualified dentist making contact with my office. She said she had identical qualifications that could have worked in Ireland but she felt that numerous barriers were being put in her way, including by QQI and the HSE. She also felt that the dental representative bodies were putting a lot of barriers in her way that made it tricky for her to be a practising dentist. Will the witnesses comment on that?

Are we doing enough to encourage people overseas who have this qualification to come to Ireland vis-à-vis the D visa?

Mr. David O'Flynn

One of the things the Dental Council has done over the last two years, not just in respect of Ukrainian dentists but with regard to anybody who has been granted international protection by Ireland, is open up a specific registration pathway for them. We have had 176 dentists who have been granted international protection by Ireland apply to register with the Dental Council and we have a pathway to allow them to practise. That straddles the pathway European Union graduates would have and that of non-EEA dentists. We have a specific pathway to guide those on to the register.

I do not know when the Deputy's constituent sought to speak to the Dental Council but that pathway has been in place for approximately two years. We put that in place with the full support of the profession. It relies on the profession to provide mentored places for that. The profession has been very supportive of the initiative, as has the Irish Dental Association in promoting it with its members. There has been a good uptake and the response has been good from the refugees who have managed to partake in that process.

On dentists who are not refugees but are from outside the European Union, the pathway to registration is through our exam. In the last couple of years, we have increased the capacity of the exam because we are oversubscribed and we are actively looking at increasing it again. I cannot correlate the number of people who sit the exam with D visas because we do not have that information.

Is the examination pathway comparable with what colleagues in general practice face? Do doctors and nurses who come into this country also face examinations? Again, anecdotally, I have heard that the steps dentists must take to become a fully practising dentist here are rather excessive and punitive. That is what I have been told. Admittedly, it was 18 months ago that I had the meeting I mentioned in my office. This was someone who had all the qualifications, and years of practice and experience in Ukraine. She felt she was being put on the rack by having to justify what she had done, her qualifications and her ability to practice effectively.

Mr. David O'Flynn

Doctors must pass an exam and nurses are assessed. If he wishes, the Deputy can contact me after the meeting and let me know about his constituent. We can check to see if she is part of the process and, if not, we can guide her on what the process is. As I said, we have a process in place to guide people, mainly Ukrainians, and we have given them a pathway to registration in Ireland. Many of them are in that pathway and are in practice at the moment.

Dr. Caroline Robins

I am a dentist who came from outside the EEA. I went through that exact situation and I felt exactly the same. I felt I had all the qualifications and I had the years of experience. The Dental Council is explaining why we need these things. They are in place because the council needs to ensure that the standards dentists bring are adequate and that patients will be safe in the care of prospective dentists. Everything that needs to be instigated, through the statutory examination, ensures that once a dentist is registered, he or she has met the level of requirement. It is a safety factor. In my case, I huffed and puffed and was annoyed, and felt I had enough, but it takes time. I am heartened to hear that Mr. O'Flynn is talking about looking at ways to increase capacity because that certainly would be helpful.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

In the absence of continuing professional development, which we talked about in considerable detail earlier, and in the absence of the ability to inspect a practice, we need to be very certain that when we let somebody on to the register, he or she is of the appropriate standard, as has been clearly stated by my colleague, Dr. Robins.

I get the points that have been made, and perhaps I am being simplistic, but yesterday, in a different realm, Ireland decided what countries are safe for migration purposes, which is a broad and sweeping statement. Surely some analogy can be drawn with that. If there are other countries beyond the EEA, for example, Ukraine, where the system of education, training and practice is similar to and aligned with ours, surely we could get rid of some of these entry requirements and speed up the pathway for their dentists to practise. Could we make a sweeping statement about a country and system as opposed to scrutinising the individual practitioner?

Mr. David O'Flynn

We do that. We have entered into reciprocity agreements with some countries, with Canada and New Zealand being two in particular. We are considering having agreements with Australia and the United Kingdom, now that the latter is outside the European Union and a safe country.

Do we not have an agreement with the UK yet?

Mr. David O'Flynn

We do not have a memorandum of understanding with the UK. It is outside the European Union. We have an obligation when we recognise a qualification outside the European Union to make sure it is aligned with EU standards.

On whose head it is to strike that agreement? Is it for the Minister for Health or the Dental Council to do that?

Mr. David O'Flynn

It would be a Dental Council agreement.

Reaching that agreement is of the utmost urgency.

Mr. David O'Flynn

We are engaging with our colleagues in the UK and there is legislation going through the UK Parliament to allow that. They cannot do it at the moment. The issue is more a prohibition, from a legislative point of view, on the General Dental Council in the UK entering into an agreement with us, rather than a lack of goodwill on either side. There is goodwill on both sides to conclude this as soon as it can be done. That is our intention. We are open to looking at those kind of agreements with other countries as well.

The briefing note is excellent. I will veer away from the education end because it speaks for itself. The funding speaks for itself and I agree that it is absolutely essential. I wanted to home in on the other pathways.

On 10 April, Mr. Hourihan emailed a very detailed note to me, which provided a county-by-county brief. I represent County Clare. According to the figures supplied, screening of target groups in County Clare stands at 24%. Some 6,300 students should be screened but we have only reached about one third of that figure. County Clare is in community healthcare organisation, CHO, area 3 for public health. Does County Clare fare worse? Is the mid-west faring worse? This committee has scrutinised the acute hospitals system in the mid-west many times and it fares much worse than the rest of the country. Is public dental care in a similar position?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I do not know whether it is much consolation but the problem is far worse in Limerick where only 19% of the children who should have been screened were screened last year. Of the 8,528 children in Limerick who should have been seen, just over 1,600 were seen. In Tipperary as a whole, there was a much better uptake, with 87% of the 6,738 children seen. Limerick is far worse that Clare, while Tipperary is considerably better.

In recent weeks, the committee has undertaken a body of work on the national cancer strategy. I expect that oral cancer can bee seen or spotted first, or certainly the suspicion of its existence can be identified, by a dentist. Is screening for oral cancer and examinations by dentists, be it by self-referral or whatever else, a missing piece of the jigsaw? If that lack of screening for oral cancer the missing piece? Beyond a dental check-up, is there specific oral cancer screening that we are missing in Ireland and that we should be doing?

Dr. Rory Boyd

I work in practice four and a half days a week. Unfortunately, we have picked up six cases of oral cancer this year, which is an outlier and above normal. The general dental exam is an oral cancer screen. If someone is lucky enough to afford a dental exam, they will also get an oral cancer screen. Again, not to hark back to the dental treatment services scheme, those in underprivileged groups and with lower socioeconomic status have a higher incidence of oral cancer, according to the research. Oral cancer is one of the top five cancers in the world and they are more likely to have it. With the decline of the DTSS programme, we are also seeing a decline in screening in that group.

With regard to screening for oral cancer specifically, evidence shows that is not cost-effective. I was involved in the inaugural cancer day in the Dublin Dental Hospital in Trinity and there was a huge screening programme to create awareness around oral cancer. However, having clinics specifically screening for oral cancer like we do with breast cancer, would not be cost-effective.

If the Chairman will allow, that whole thing of-----

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

I will add that the evidence coming from the UK looking at the presentation of oral cancer in the post-pandemic time, we see patients presented later with more severe disease because they did not have access to general dental care. The screening programme is well-trained general dental practitioners seeing patients and if that does not happen, there will be later presentations and poorer outcomes.

I thank Dr. Gallagher for her insight on that. If the Chairman will allow, we could discuss this forever but would there be any possibility that after today's meeting Mr. O'Flynn or one of the witnesses might send correspondence to the committee outlining which countries Ireland has a memorandum of understanding with and where the memorandum has been working? We do not need to say which countries we do not have one with because that would be every other one. To hear we do not have a memorandum of understanding yet with our nearest neighbour is an area of concern. Will the witnesses give the committee some detail on that in tabular format? It would be appreciated. I thank the witnesses for their work and we will try to articulate vociferously some of their asks in the channels of government.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the information they have given to the committee. It is highly important that the highest possible standards prevail in any health practice and we should try to make every effort to ensure nobody gets through the system who should not be there, whether in dental or general medicine, because a number of people who had unfortunate records got through in general medicine in the past. They should not have been in practice in Ireland and it is important, for the confidence the public need to have in services to ensure the standards are universal and that people practising here are aptly and properly qualified and have not been debarred in any way. That did not always happen in the past. I am not casting any aspersion on dental professionals but it is important to keep that in mind.

What effect did Covid have on dental services in general and on services to the general public? I know of people who had a full set of teeth before Covid and eventually ended up with no teeth or only 50% of them because it was not possible to get back into a service again. How did the dental profession cope with that, generally, throughout the country?

In respect of school dental examinations, what efforts were made to try to catch up given the sensitivity of the need to deal with schoolchildren in the appropriate years as opposed to passing them on and them having to wait for the next educational sphere?

Dr. Will Rymer

I can answer the first part. In terms of how the profession dealt with Covid we were closed for a very short period and thanks in part to my colleagues, particularly Dr. Eamon Croke who worked closely with the quality and patient safety committee through the Irish Dental Association and others, we were able to establish a working environment that was deemed to be safe very quickly. We were able to see patients-----

For how long were dental practices closed?

Dr. Will Rymer

We for closed for eight or nine weeks.

Dr. Will Rymer

Yes. There may have been an issue-----

It was not always possible to identify that in the public arena.

Dr. Will Rymer

In my community, we have three dental practices in our town. I know two dentists were shielding as was recommended at the time so their patients would have been concentrated into one or two other practices. As a profession we were able to return to service very quickly. There were guidelines around types of treatments we were able to do at certain times but as a profession we were able to work and get back to reality pretty promptly.

A considerable number of HSE dentists were asked to work in the screening and vaccine administration services once the vaccine was available. The number of dentists working within the HSE would have been slightly different. Does anyone want to expand on that point?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Unfortunately, the numbers of schoolchildren denied screening has increased in recent years. There are a number of reasons for that. There was a backlog after Covid. There has been a continued widening of the gap between the number of dentists employed and the numbers needed. I said earlier that adults are now presenting to the HSE, be they medical card patients or international protection patients, and all of that means there is increased pressure on the HSE dental surgeons.

The numbers of schoolchildren denied screening is increasing over time because they never really caught up after Covid and additional pressures have been put on ever since.

Why was it more difficult to catch up on the school dental examinations than on the general adult dental work?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

In the case of the children's screening service, it is purely a function of resources. They were under-resourced to start with. As Dr. Rymer stated, the HSE dentists were deployed into different areas and they are doing their level best to catch up. However, the gap is widening all of the time between the number of children in schools and the number of dentists available to go out and screen them. It is getting continually worse.

Are efforts being made-----

Dr. Rory Boyd

My private practice was closed for nine weeks. We were given the option if we felt it appropriate to reopen to what level we determined. Within the HSE the dentists were redeployed for 18 to 24 months because they were also involved in the testing and then they were involved in the vaccination services. The HSE dentists were taken out of their operations for a drastically longer period than we were in private practice.

For what particular reason?

Dr. Rory Boyd

The HSE dentists were taken out for testing and when the vaccinations were rolled out HSE, they were involved in that. That was far later.

They were redeployed.

Dr. Rory Boyd

They were redeployed. The HSE was effectively decimated by redeployment. Those jobs were valid and important at the time but that is one of the reasons for the huge gap between recouping HSE practice and private practice.

In respect of schoolchildren, were orthodontics affected in the same way? Was there any regard for children with very severe dental needs as can be seen from time to time in almost every practice everywhere? Were any special arrangements made where those urgent cases could or would be dealt with in a particular year?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Limited funding was made available during the past 18 months by the Minister for Health to deal with orthodontic care and that is very welcome. Unfortunately, according to the latest figures I saw, there are still approximately 13,000 children on the orthodontic waiting list and a significant number of them will be on that for four years. I acknowledge funding was made available by the Minister. It was a contribution but was a long way short of what was needed.

Were the services provided were in line with the funding?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I cannot say. All I do know is that a number of patients were seen who might not otherwise have been but there are still very large numbers on the waiting lists.

At this stage can we identify how long the patients may have to wait on the waiting list and will their opportune moment for dental intervention have expired before they are reached?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The HSE gathers that information and I know it has been asked for in parliamentary questions. That information is out there. I am not sure what happens if a child commences treatment before the age of 16; he or she might continue it. The HSE would say it probably does not have the necessary resources to see every child it wants to see even before he or she reaches his or her 16th birthday.

Dr. Rory Boyd

There is a sweet spot within orthodontic treatment, especially for those with more severe disease, where we can capture the growth spurt in and around the age of 12. We can get information on the length of the HSE waiting list for the Deputy but it is years. If we miss that sweet spot - that growth spurt - the treatment given to those patients would be inferior to that if they had been able to avail of treatment earlier.

It is important to realise when we will be able to get the numbers with regard to the waiting lists. There is no doubt that they are too long, however, and the length of those waiting lists for orthodontic treatments will impact on the care of patients.

Are we in a position now to make an intervention that will be sufficient to make a real impact on the waiting lists in that area, with particular reference to the window of opportunity that exists between the ages of A and B or whatever it may be?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

Ultimately, that would be a political decision in terms of assigning the funds and the HSE would obviously-----

Has Mr. Hourihan any knowledge of the funding that might be required? Is it an endless amount that moves from time to time or is there a precise amount of funding needed now?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We know what is on the waiting lists and we can probably estimate from that what level of funding is required to meet the waiting lists. However, there is a lot of unmet need as well. The solution would be to enhance the screening service to avoid greater numbers of orthodontic problems emerging that could otherwise have been mitigated. Clearly, however, if there are people on the lists, they are waiting for treatment. It would require investment in a treatment purchase fund or some equivalent to try to clear that list. We know what the list looks like in terms of numbers. We could probably extrapolate from that what funding would be required. I just do not have that figure off the top of my head.

The Irish Dental Association has not done any calculations in that respect.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I have not, no.

Mr. Hourihan cannot give us a ballpark figure.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I would like to research it before throwing a figure out, but it would be a significant amount of money.

Maybe we might-----

We will have to move on.

Ms Catherine Gallagher

I just want to make one point in terms of orthodontic treatment need. A significant contributor to the development of orthodontic treatment need is, in fact, the failure of primary prevention for dental disease and extractions that contribute to the development of orthodontic problems in older children and adolescents. Therefore, if we want to reduce the orthodontic treatment need in the medium term and long term, we need to address the primary prevention problem in the first place.

Yes. I thank Ms Gallagher. At the beginning of the meeting, there was reference to bringing standards up to the UK levels, even though the UK is a non-EU country. Is it not necessary now to ensure that all standards are brought up to EU levels because of some of the things that happened?

Dr. Gerry Cleary

I am sorry; which standards? I am not sure to what the Deputy is referring.

I will not go back through the whole lot again, but-----

Dr. Gerry Cleary

It is fair to say that the standards in Ireland are always referenced to EU standards and always to best international standards. We certainly would not be pinning any standard in terms of what the regulator would do with regard to just the UK; we would be pegging those standards to best international standards.

This is my last question, Chairman. Sepsis is an issue that has affected the health system generally throughout the country. I recall asking a question of a medical professional approximately five or six years ago, to be told it would be rare in this country now. I remember my reply at the time was to ask how many cases there are in the course of a year. The answer was three or four. They must have all ended up at my door, which I doubt. It is now a serious problem, however. I am sure it affects dental services as well. It is very dramatic in the way it surges. Unless it is identified in time, there is only one outcome. That is the problem. What are dental services doing or what can they do to contribute to the fight against sepsis in certain cases?

Dr. Will Rymer

There are two issues there. What we have talked about regarding the dental ecosystem means that patients are not able to present to dentists early enough. As we would see with dental infections, they are the same as any other infection; from a small acorn a large oak will grow. We often find that patients are presenting much later. I had two patients admitted this year, not with sepsis but with large spreading infection, which at times could be only a couple of days from becoming a serious problem.

People are also presenting much later. There is also anxiety because of the media attention that something like sepsis would bring. There is anxiety among local communities, particularly in my community, about the fact that people may have to attend hospital. Obviously, there was the recent media attention regarding University Hospital Limerick. Patients are anxious about have to attend for that kind of treatment so they are holding off on getting vital interventions.

I thank the witnesses.

I call Deputy Ó Murchú, who is a not a member of the committee.

I apologise; I was at another committee meeting earlier so I did not hear all the back and forth.

I do not think anyone would be shocked to realise that there has not been a solution with regard to the dental treatment service scheme, DTSS, and dental care for people on medical cards. It is an ongoing issue. We keep hearing about interaction and interventions by the Department and the Minister, but I have yet to see anything that looks like a result. We could end up utterly hopeless as a result of constantly having the same conversation.

I realise Deputy Durkan took up the issue of orthodontics. I did not hear all of that discussion either. I am going to bring up a very specific issue regarding orthodontic care in my own constituency. I am talking about the HSE orthodontic centre at Louth County Hospital in Dundalk, which looks after Louth, Monaghan and some parts of Meath. There are hundreds of under-18s on the waiting list for orthodontic treatment who are split into category 4, which is technically regarded as cosmetic, and category 5, which is people who are clinically in more need of treatment. If they do not get treatment, that can get very bad very quickly. The national oral health office, NOHO, is spending a huge amount of money. The figure we got for 2021 for 77 patients was €200,999.95 but, by 2023, accepting 256 patients, that is €889,530.88. It is a significant amount of money. That is going on getting kids seen through a private system within weeks. These are all category 4 patients. However, the issue is that the category 5 patients who are more clinically in need are not getting seen at all.

We are told there is - I love these terms - an assessment of the feasibility of a similar initiative for category 5 patients on eTenders. This was to be done in April of this year but I have not been updated as to whether it has happened or not. What is also happening is that parents of these category 5 kids are being regularly contacted by the HSE, which is wondering if they have taken the child to the North for treatment or if they are still waiting. I know of a kid who turns 17 this Christmas. He has been waiting three years for category 5 treatment. He has protruding front teeth. His parents are obviously waiting on the HSE to deal with this issue but, at this stage, will this happen before he turns 18 in December 2024? I cannot give an answer on the basis of the answer I am getting.

I am right in thinking there is a shortage of orthodontists. I am advised that the centre in Dundalk has engaged in a worldwide recruitment campaign. Obviously, it has not been particularly successful so far. I assume there is a solution. Can this work be done by orthodontists in the private sector in this State? This sometimes relates more to the Minister, the Department and the HSE, but why are people being sent to the North for the cross-border treatment programme if there are orthodontists in the State who are able to do it? As I said, we are at least able to deal with those in category 4, but those in category 5 could be people who will end up in a far worse set of circumstances and then we will be talking about incredibly serious recruitment issues. It is the whole idea of not carrying out the early intervention.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

What I can say is that, yes, there are specialist orthodontists in private practice who could do the work. There is a shortage. I think one of the consultants in the north east retired in recent times, which has probably exacerbated the problem. As to the reason why, it may be that there is a funding issue. I do not know why families are being asked if the children are being sent to the North for orthodontic treatment. From time to time, the HSE will put out to tender and ask private specialist orthodontists to submit. It sounds like that is probably what is needed in the north east. I could not be certain of the availability because, no more than general dentists, specialist such as orthodontists have significant waiting times in their own practices.

Yes, but we have to get answers about whether the capacity exists in the private sector. We have no choice but to utilise all services that are available, be they private or public. While the cross-border health directive is imperfect, for many people it is the only solution, particularly those in my constituency who would find it a bit easier than those who come from further afield. Dr. Robins spoke about how, in some cases, preventative care is much better, but we are talking about people who have been categorised as category 4 and 5. I refer particularly to those who are category 5, which tells me that they are in need of significant intervention. The longer we leave that, the worse the circumstances we will be dealing with. The witnesses will agree that it is unacceptable. We need to have movement as quickly as possible.

I wish to raise one of those issues, where you think it is sorted, and then it is not. Basically, it is a disaster. I refer to the case of a 37-year-old woman who has a serious infection in her one of her jaws and her teeth. She was on antibiotics for many months because she was not able to get treated. She is a medical card holder, and we know the issue that arises in that regard. She needs to be operated on under anaesthetic. She has a diagnosis of autism. She went to the dental hospital. I do not think she was able to get treatment there. She was referred by representatives from our office through the cross-border health directive and she attended a number of appointments at a dentist in the North for review and assessment. This was due to be done on April 26, but was cancelled the week beforehand. It seems that the dentist just happened to leave the private practice in question and said they were not able to do it. She is back in limbo.

We are sending this issue back to the HSE and starting the conversation all over again. Unfortunately, this is hardly going to be the only case of that nature. It has taken a huge amount of time to get this lady sorted. She is in significant pain, as the witnesses can imagine. I know I am stretching beyond the what we are discussing to a degree, but there have to be ways and means of dealing with these sorts of situations. I do not think any of this is particularly great. We thought we had a solution. We thought we could do it through the cross-border health directive, and we could have done. We just ended up with someone who could do it but how left the dental practice at which it was to be done suddenly. Then the surgery could not be done, and now we are back to square one.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It sounds like this might be a case that would be appropriate for treatment under general anaesthetic in the facility in the Connolly Hospital Blanchardstown. There have been delays in commissioning and opening that facility. Previously, up to 2014, there was a facility in St. James's Hospital, which saw 3,000 children and adults per year being cared for under general anaesthesia. It might not be fixed today or tomorrow, but, ultimately, the solution is to find a way to open the facility in the Connolly Hospital Blanchardstown because, given the parts of the country the Deputy is speaking about, that would seem to be the obvious place. I do not know whether there is scope for the patient to contact the HSE in order to gain access to the theatre in the Connolly Hospital Blanchardstown, but the plan is for there will be a theatre that there which would allow care for dental patients under general anaesthesia.

What would the timeframe be on that?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I do not know. The HSE would know.

We have made the representation at this point. We would direct one set of questions to Connolly Hospital Blanchardstown as a possible solution, but that would need to happen fast. It cannot be beyond the scope of the HSE to find a solution. I understand that it deals with many issues and has many moving parts, but we are going around in circles. We thought we had a workaround using the cross-border health directive, and suddenly we did not. Again, the circumstances are going to be worse when the lady finally gets treatment.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

I suppose that all I can suggest to the Deputy is that he contacts the HSE to see if it can assist him.

I appreciate that. I just have one last question in relation to the DTSS, which I missed. What is the lay of the land in relation to the Irish Dental Association's interactions with the Minister and the Department and getting to a solution? We have been talking about this forever.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The ball is in the Minister's court. Everyone accepts that there needs to be a new scheme. It will take a while to finalise the detail on that. We have proposed a solution which would involve clinics in HSE facilities in the evenings and possibly at the weekends. That is something we have had a number of meetings about, but, fundamentally, the problem with the DTSS is that needs to be replaced by an entirely different system. We are waiting to sit down and go to the table with the Department of Health. That will require the Minister to direct his officials to invite us in.

Is it the case that he has not done that yet?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

That is correct.

Right. When was the last time the Irish Dental Association had an interaction with the Minister?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The last time we met the Minister was in March or April of last year. We speak with his individuals on an ongoing basis.

Yet, currently, the association is waiting for him to click the officials into operation and that has not happened yet.

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We are awaiting an invitation.

Could the committee make an intervention and possibly ask the Minister to get himself into gear?

Dr. Will Rymer

Here today, we have been avoiding using terms was like “emergency” or “crisis”. Smile agus Sláinte was published approximately five years ago. We have many problems with that document. We produced our own. Given the language we are using around all these discussions today, the movement on this is imperceptibly slow.

Glacial. It has not moved at all. We are having the same conversation we had previously. We can all table motions, Private Members’ Bills and all the rest. We have all asked multiple parliamentary questions. Everybody gets up and says they realise this is an issue and that this is incredibly serious, but it has not moved. They say that it is with the Minister, and we are awaiting him to kick-start this properly. We need that to happen as soon as possible. This committee and whoever else needs to put whatever pressure they can on him to do so.

I have a couple of questions. First, I welcome the fact that an oral health unit has been established. There seems to be some sort of movement in relation to that and that is positive. It is also positive that the representatives spoke about a new pathway for people from outside the EU for the assessment, etc. They gave the numbers. Again, that is a positive movement.

The worrying thing is the fact that the last time the witnesses were before the committee we had been speaking about how there was a major concern regarding the medical card scheme. The last time we had the Minister before the committee about this, and this was possibly two years ago, he said he had been expecting substantial movement. I think that was the phrase he used in relation to the roll-out. Clearly, that has not happened. In the few minutes that we have left, could the representatives focus on that? What are the problems? There has been an increase in funding. What other additional elements will bring this scheme together? I think this question was asked, but when was the last time the Irish Dental Association formally met with the Minister on these issues?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

We last met the Minister in March or April of last year, and I can get the precise date. It would take an invitation from the Department of Health to the Irish Dental Association to attend. There are some legal issues that need to be resolved around competition law, but we have resolved those with the relevant Departments. The Department of Health has resolved those with the Irish Medical Organisation, so that should not be problematic. Ultimately, it will require Department to invite the association to discuss replacing the DTSS. There is common cause for it to be replaced. We have put forward a model to the Department of Health, which is aware of it, and it may or may not agree with it. The short answer is that it needs the Department to invite us to talk, because we have been available for quite some time. Believe it or not, it was in 2008 that there were talks on the replacement of the DTSS. The Department of Health left those talks and there have not been talks since. Sixteen years on, we are still waiting to be called back.

It is scandalous. Mr. Hourihan mentioned the famous Kevin "Heffo" Heffernan in relation to that. It is good to hear his name being mentioned in these hallowed walls. It is good to hear that someone remembers him. It is scandalous that we do not have up to date legislation.

On reading the witnesses' opening statement, particularly appendix 1 and some of the points they were making, while we are in the 21st century, this is almost going back hundreds of years. As for the idea that there might be teeth lying on a radiator or the fact that someone has been convicted of a sexual offence, we have stringent rules if people are trying to get a taxi licence and yet here we have someone operating. Such people can put someone asleep and can give people injections and so on. People are potentially going into this area who have no training, no background or have a criminal background and that is scandalous. I am shocked by it and the committee certainly will raise this at the next opportunity. That is one of the things we can do.

We can also ask whether the legislation itself is a priority because it does not appear to be. Legislation is being updated and it should not take a huge amount of effort and ability from the Department to try to upgrade that. We have heard some of the horror stories and have seen them on "Prime Time". It is possibly still ongoing and the Dental Council does not know how many people are practising. As for the council's own powers, does it have the resources, were it given the opportunity, to assess the premises in the first case? An example was given of someone operating in a prefab. While we probably have similar medical facilities in hospitals, that does not worry me but what does worry me is if the place is not clean, is not aesthetically clean and so on. What additional resources would the council need if we were to have a 21st-century approach, particularly with regard to the Dental Council and the onus of responsibilities the council thinks it should have?

Mr. David O'Flynn

It would require increased resources in the Dental Council but the positive news is that in the way we would envisage it, it would be at no cost to the State. If we had the powers that we envisaged in the 2021 submission, we would need to create some kind of inspectorate unit and some kind of unit around practice regulation as well. We envisage that as its cost would be paid through the registration fee by the practices registering, it would be cost neutral to the State in that regard. In terms of its size, it would depend on the nature and the scope of what we got in the legislation but the general commitment from the Dental Council to the committee here today is that whatever needs to be done we will do and that we would put the appropriate resources in place as and when required.

The important thing from our perspective is to get the legislation and the pathway to this on the legislation books in order that we can actually do this. We have stated, however, that we will do it. From a resourcing point of view, it would probably entail the establishment of a couple of extra units within the Dental Council but it is something we anticipate we can do. We anticipate that it could be done at no additional cost to the State and we think we can do it very efficiently.

Has the council engaged with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, or the Department on possible amendments to the existing legislation? Its proposals are there. For how long have they been on the table?

Mr. David O'Flynn

That is the entire menu there in the 2021 submission. We recognise there is a politically reality, with the general election looming, as to what can get through on the legislative agenda on this side of an election or not. It is our strong hope and wish that the three points I covered in my opening statement about the continuing confidence, about the ability to check who is in a dental practice and whether they are registered, and about strengthening our capacity around education are three things that can happen this side of a general election. They are the three issues we certainly would like to see as key interim measures that would go a fair step of the way to providing that extra assurance to dental patients that the person they are seeing is a registered dentist in the first case - that probably is the key thing - and second, is competent to practice. We believe those three issues are certainly things that can happen in the short term. We would dearly love to see them happen in the short term and certainly would appreciate the committee's support in any way it can in moving that process along.

I will get back to the medical card issue again. Everyone has touched on it. First, is there a breakdown of dentists operating this scheme? Where are they located? Is there a list of dentists who will take the medical card? If someone has a medical card and cannot get access to a dentist, is there a list of somewhere someone can go in that regard? Does the Department have it or does the council have it? I am thinking of all those people out there and how far they would have to travel. I presume it is the usual thing that if a person is in a particular locality, it is more difficult to access it. Do we have a map or do we have a sense of where the big gaps are in respect of the scheme itself?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

On its website, the HSE publishes and updates the list of participating dentists who hold contracts, usually on a monthly basis. Some of those dentists are not taking any more patients, simply because they cannot. It does not operate in the same way as with the medical doctors, where there is a fixed number of patients per participating doctor. Unfortunately, if there are more leaving the scheme, those who are left are facing bigger and bigger numbers and they cannot see all of the patients who would like to see them. The number of dentists who hold contracts is held by the HSE and is available through its website. There is not a list per se of alternative options. The Irish Dental Association's website has a find-a-dentist facility, which details other dentists in the locality. If a person was in Tallaght, in Carlow or in Tipperary, he or she can find out what other dentists are there but three out of four them are not in the medical card scheme. Some of them will be able to see patients but they will be seeing them as private patients because they are either in or out of the scheme.

The way the scheme is set up now is like going to a medical doctor and being told the only option is to chop of your limbs, your leg or whatever. The preventative element of the scheme is entirely gone. It is an emergency pain relief scheme and has limited numbers of options in terms of saving teeth. The scheme is so out of date and so past its sell-by date that we cannot understand why there has been such a delay. To answer the Cathaoirleach's specific question, there is a breakdown. The HSE updates a list on its website, I would say on a monthly basis, that can be made available. I am sure the HSE would provide it but it is publically available.

I had previously asked the HSE and its representatives said that but again, this is for the benefit of people who are listening in or looking in today. Are more people leaving the medical card scheme? Is the tide going in or coming out in respect of it? Does the council have any sense of-----

Dr. Will Rymer

I would describe it as slack water. We had a situation where there was what was described as an unprecedented investment in the scheme. In 2014, we had 430,000 patients treated but now, in 2023, after those fee increases, we have only 280,000 patients treated. The number of dentists involved in the scheme has not gone up significantly since those fee increases. As advertised, there are 36 dentists in Dublin south west but if one rings around, there are not 36 dentists who are able to take one on a as a medical card patient. Mr. Hourihan used the analogy of only offering amputation and for a young dentist coming into the Irish workforce, it is a highly innovative and highly technological workforce that is trained to a very high standard. We are very lucky in Ireland to have highly trained dentists.

We are not utilising half of their skills and we are not seeing a desire for them to work in a scheme that is offering antiquated, Victorian-era dentistry. It is not what we should be offering to our patients and, because of that, we are seeing a gradual slip in the overall standard of oral healthcare in Ireland.

Smile agus Sláinte is an aspirational document. We have produced a document that we think has a lot to aspire to but, unfortunately, the movement is just too slow. We have described patients who are suffering. There are tens of thousands more patients who are falling between the cracks and we are not hearing their stories and they do not have Deputies to advocate for them, although they have significant problems. There are all of these things that we have talked about today. Children who are presenting later now have more complex treatment needs. I am having to try to explain to an anxious child about the much more complicated treatment they are going to have to undergo because we missed out on the opportunity to do a simple fissure sealant or a simple fluoride application. I am now talking to a seven or eight-year-old about extractions and root canal treatments, with those extractions leading to them requiring orthodontic treatment later. It is very expensive for the parent or the State so we have to get serious about prevention much earlier in their development.

Am I right to say that under the current medical card scheme, it is more about extraction than saving the tooth? Is that the big challenge?

Dr. Will Rymer

Yes. We talk about firefighting. We have patients coming in under the medical card scheme who might come in for their checkup after 12 months. We are just fighting that particular problem and we are not making any progress. Every time we see them, there has been a small, subtle deterioration. It is very frustrating to work under that scheme and that is why I have moved out of the scheme. Some 90% of dentists in Ireland report suffering symptoms of burnout. That is what we are dealing with. You are constantly fighting fires and not actually getting to practise your profession, which is improving oral healthcare. That is what we are facing on a daily basis. It is why young dentists cannot see themselves working under the scheme and why more and more patients are being neglected.

Dr. Caroline Robins

As a dentist, I would describe some of it as supervised neglect. That is what I am doing, day in, day out - supervising the problem, with an inability to treat it because the scheme does not allow me to treat it and treat that patient. My patient cannot be treated as my patient. Every single person who walks through my door should be coming into my surgery as my patient. It should not be that because it is a medical card patient, I suddenly have to tie both hands behind my back and offer that patient just one thing. If people fall out of that remit and do not need any of the things the medical card allows, I can offer them nothing, so it is pointless. It is supervised neglect and it is very demoralising.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

The very sad thing is that Ireland had an enviable reputation for prevention. Water fluoridation in the 1960s cut dental decay by 50% almost overnight. Regarding the child scheme that my colleagues have been talking about all morning, to see a child at each of the stages where they were to be seen was so significant in terms of prevention of dental disease that it is a shame the system has collapsed. The smoking ban also saw significant improvements in oral health. We had a reputation for preventing dental disease at a very high level for a very long time. It is a terrible shame that some of those aspects have essentially slipped away to almost nothing. Fortunately, water fluoridation is still there. If it was not, I would hate to think of the situation. We have heard some horror stories. In the absence of water fluoridation, we would be in a much more serious situation.

I am glad the committee members are shocked by some of the things they have heard from both the Irish Dental Association and the Irish Dental Council this morning. We very much welcome the opportunity we have had to present some of this information to the committee. Fortunately, on the regulatory side, we feel some meaningful progress can be made in terms of the items that the registrar has outlined, the establishment of the oral health unit and the relationship that has been ongoing there over the past six months. Anything the committee can do to support that or provide intervention for either the association or the council with the Department of Health and the Minister would be extremely welcome. Again, we thank the committee members for the opportunity they have afforded us this morning to outline some of the difficulties that both the association and the Dental Council have been experiencing over the last while.

Again, we talked about the horrors but, particularly with regard to children, aside from adults, we have actually seen the horror caused by the neglect of oral health. The witnesses mentioned the fact there were 100,000 children last year. I do not understand why we have neglected this whole area of health, given the importance of oral health for the whole body, not just the mouth, and the impact it has. Other countries get it but, for some reason, we do not seem to have done that here. We prioritise other areas of health and, as I said, I welcome that a unit is being established. However, the fact that we are playing catch-up at this stage is very worrying.

Is there a solution to this if the money and resources were there? One of the resources that I want to ask about is the capacity within the training system itself. If we had the dentists within the system, would there be a possibility of clearing the backlog of 100,000 patients? Do we have the personnel? The witnesses made the suggestion of the night school, people going to the hospital and so on. Is there potentially a plan so that, for example, in the next five years, we could clear those waiting lists and fix the system? By the sound of it, the system is on its knees at present. Will it be possible within the next five or ten years to resolve all of these issues?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

It requires political will. We know there are approximately 3,500 dentists on the Dental Council register. The Department of Health would say that some 2,600 are in active practice, which means nearly 1,000 dentists who are on the register are not in active practice. Some of them may be overseas, some may be retired and some may have been students who graduated from here, registered here and went away again. It is a very competitive labour market.

The political will has to be there and a clear signal has to go out that in the case of children, for example, there is a public dental service that the HSE and the Department are committed to restoring and rebuilding. It is very difficult to recruit dentists into the service when, on the one hand, we hear the Minister saying he is going to ask the private dentists to see the children, when that is a large part of what the public service does. That confusion, assuming it is confusion, has to be addressed. There needs to be a clear statement from the Minister that he and the Government are committed to the HSE public dental service. There has to be a decision to hire more dentists but also to end this crazy situation where you might be given permission to hire a dentist but you cannot get permission to hire a dental nurse, which means you cannot see any patients because, for chaperone and other reasons, dentists cannot see patients on their own.

There is a whole range of confidence-building measures and foundation stepping stones that we have set out in our document. There are many facets to it and we have covered a lot of it here today. If we think of vulnerable adults, the priority has to be to start talking about a new scheme to replace the DTSS as a priority. For children, it is to restore the school screening service, give a clear political commitment as to the future of the service, remove the anomalies in the recruitment embargo and start hiring more staff.

I was asked earlier if there is any reason other than a shortage of dentists that so few children are being seen. It was deemed a good idea 30 years ago and it was an excellent idea. All that has changed is that there are not enough dentists, and the reason there are not enough dentists is because the HSE is choosing to hire elsewhere. It is very striking that the number of doctors, nurses and other health professionals and administrators are all going up by 20% to 50% and the only profession where the number is going down is dentistry. That is hardly an accident. There needs to be a direction from the Minister to say that we value the public dental service, we value the screening service for children, we want to get back to screening children at three different age intervals at primary school, and this is what we are going to do to make sure we have the staff to see the children.

Of course, there are competing pressures. Private dentists want to hire staff as well, and that is the reality.

There will be more students coming on stream from the new RCSI school in Dublin and, we hope, from the school in Cork as well. They are obviously going to be longer term. The immediate issues around capacity relate to work permits and visas, for example, and that is something the Department of Justice and the Department of enterprise can help us with.

Do the witnesses believe there is additional capacity within the system? Reference was made to the site in Cork that was cancelled, as well as Trinity College and a number of other areas. If the subsidy was reconsidered in that regard, could that create additional capacity?

Mr. David O'Flynn

In the context of the numbers, the additional space that is being delivered through the education system will be welcome. It is an admirable long-term goal for Ireland to train the dentists it needs, but it is long term. We are looking at a ten to 15 year period for tor the additional measures to have any real impact on the number of dentists in the service. A positive sign is that the demand for registration is very strong. We registered more dentists last year than at any other time previously. We registered approximately 350 dentists last year. The year before that was our previous registration high, at just short of 300. As the vast majority of the dentists registering are European dentists, they can move here under the freedom of movement provisions.

There is a question around the capacity issue. We talked earlier about the international protection dentists. One of the issues they have reported to us is that they are finding it hard to find full-time jobs. I do not know how long the dentists that are coming in from the European Union are staying or whether they are having difficulties here. I am not sure that matching the demand for dentists in a particular location to dentists coming in is feasible. That may need to be examined. In the context of trying to do something in the short term, there is a question in that area that needs to be considered and addressed. The increase in places in schools is admirable, and Ireland probably does need to train more dentists, but it is a long-term measure. Its impact will be felt in the mid-2030s; it will not be felt now. There is a demand to practise dentistry in Ireland, however, and the registration demand is strong. Work needs to be done to link that to the locations where there is demand for dentists. That is apparent based on what we are seeing from the register. We hope that somebody will look at it. State intervention will probably be required in order to match the demand for registration with the demand for dentists in particular localities.

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

The headline figure of the number of registrants may hide the fact that traditionally, such as when I graduated, registrants went into dentistry and worked full-time from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday to Friday, and maybe Saturday as well, delivering dentistry. That is not necessarily the case for all registrants now. I know the IDA has done some work on looking at the workforce and the Department plans to do more. However, we need to look at what graduates are doing once they graduate and the number of hours of dentistry that are actually being delivered per week.

On that point, an increasing number of dentists are going down the aesthetic route. That issue has not been raised by members. Is that what Dr. Gallagher is talking about in the context of fewer hours of dental care being done?

Dr. Catherine Gallagher

That is certainly a factor. There are many dentists on the register who provide those kinds of services. There are some graduates who do that exclusively and do not necessarily provide any of what we would consider the traditional practices of dentistry. I do not think a huge number of dentists are only doing that, but it is one of many factors playing into the number of hours of dentistry that individual graduates and registrants are providing.

It is another area where there is no register and no one is checking who these individuals are, their competency or anything else.

Reference was made to the WHO agreement. What responsibilities will Ireland have in that regard? Will the agreement help with regard to what we are talking about here today and, in particular, the responsibilities of the State towards those coming into dentistry? Will the agreement place additional responsibilities on the State?

Mr. Fintan Hourihan

The WHO document asks member states, of which Ireland is one, to develop ambitious national responses to promote oral health and reduce oral diseases and other conditions, as well as to strengthen efforts to address oral diseases and conditions as part of universal healthcare. The agreement looks at various targets. Essentially it is saying there should be universal access for all to dentistry. It has very lofty ambitions, considering the reality of what we are dealing with in Ireland right now. What we did, and my colleague Dr. Croke was instrumental here, was to assess what the WHO has said, state where we are in Ireland in terms of how ready we are to meet some of those aims and then identify a pathway as to what needs to be done to allow us to provide access to care without undue hardship, which is what the WHO asks. It says there should be access to universal healthcare without undue hardship. That sounds like a very lofty ambition, and it is, but we think it is a positive that the Government has signed up to it because it will be required to produce progress reports on an ongoing basis. It is also a vehicle for us to engage in a more structured way with the association. One of the things the WHO says is that there has to be a political commitment, a financial investment in oral health, and there needs to be better co-operation with the providers, and that is the likes of ourselves. Those are stated as the first two objectives by the WHO and we hope the Government responds as the WHO asks in order that we can use this as a way to push oral health higher up on the agenda.

I think we have come to an end. We really appreciate the witnesses coming in. It has been very helpful. Is there any particular ask that the witnesses want of the committee? You have collectively raised a lot of issues and the clerk and myself are going to sit down to see where we go from here. There is the possibility of the Minister coming before us at some stage, but we also have Sláintecare, the HSE officials and the Department of Health to consider. A point was made about private and public healthcare and we can pursue what the oral health unit is doing and what its plans are. There are so many gaps within the system and we can certainly follow up on that legislation. Is there anything else that jumps out at any of the witnesses?

Dr. Gerry Cleary

Anything the committee can do to support, or intervene with the Minister on behalf of, the work that really started after we met with the Minister in mid-January would be fantastic. We believe there is potential for very significant changes on the three points, with amending legislation, which would allow us to be more effective than we are under the current Act. Obviously our stated ambition is to have a new dental Act in due course, but certainly the small measures we are proposing at the moment would make a very significant contribution to protecting the public and would give us more confidence in what we can do. The Cathaoirleach has hit the nail on the head.

If there is legislation that requires pre-legislative scrutiny, the committee will prioritise that legislation.

Dr. Gerry Cleary

That is very reassuring.

There will not be any blockage at this committee in the context of moving the legislation forward. We can ask the Minister about the legislation. I thank the representatives of the Irish Dental Association and the Dental Council for their engagement on this important matter. The committee will consider further how to follow up on the issues we have been discussing.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.29 p.m until 9.30 a.m on Wednesday, 8 May 2024.
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