Irish Legal Terms Bill, 1945: Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Mr. Hayes

I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (2) to delete paragraph (g) and substitute instead the following paragraph:—

(g) such other person or persons as the Government may from time to time nominate.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 to Section 2 are really the same thing. If amendment No. 1 were carried, amendment No. 2 would be consequential. The plan of the section is that there shall be a committee of seven people and that two of these people shall be the secretaries receiving remuneration, that is, the member of the Oireachtas translation staff and the person appointed under paragraph (g). While wanting to leave the Minister that particular plan, I suggested on the Second Stage, and I have put down the amendment to put that suggestion into operation, that he should not restrict himself under paragraph (g) to one person. I am more than ever convinced that I am right since I heard the Minister concluding on the Second Stage because apparently he contemplates that under (g) he will appoint a legal person with a knowledge of Irish.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland)

That is right.

Mr. Hayes

Then his committee, as the Bill stands, would be a committee of seven persons of whom six would be legal people and one a member of the Oireachtas Translation staff. On that, it seems to me that it is quite wrong to assume that all you need for translation is a person with a knowledge of Irish and a knowledge of law. You might get a person with no knowledge of law and with a very considerable knowledge of Irish, and with a knowledge of languages, how they develop and what you can do with them, because languages are like other things, you can only do a certain amount with them and you really want room on the committee for the kind of person who, though not a lawyer, may be an expert on this question of Irish terms. I think, therefore, the Minister should not be restricted to one person under paragraph (g) and I am therefore suggesting in amendment No. 1 that he should have power to nominate such other person or persons as the Government may from time to time nominate. Then he would have at least seven members on the committee but he might at any particular moment have eight or even nine. I think the Minister would find, when he would be looking around for people, that that would be an advantage to him. I think he is unduly restricted in the Bill as it stands.

Amendment No. 2 is consequential and simply provides that sub-section (6) shall be so altered that the Minister will have power to remunerate the person appointed under paragraph (g). I think that would be an improvement to the Bill and the Minister would be in the position that he could exercise the power from time to time as he pleases. At certain moments he may find it expedient to appoint even three people under paragraph (g); at others, one person may do him, but I certainly think he ought to have power to appoint the kind of person, who, though not a lawyer, may be extremely useful on such a committee for such a particular piece of work.

Liam O Buachalla

Ba mhaith liom aontú leis an Seanadóir O hAodha sa moladh atá déanta aige faoin mBille seo a leasú. Taithníonn sé liom go mór an moladh sin faoi mhír (g) go mbeadh cumhacht ag an Rialtas níos mó ná duine amháin do chur isteach má feictear dóibh gur gá é sin. Tá sean-rá ann adeir gur fearr cinn ná ceann agus, go mór mór ar obair na rúnaíochta, ba mhór an chabhair é níos mó ná aon duine amháin do dhul i mbun na hoibre tábhachtaí sin. Is maith liom go bhfuil an leasú molta ag an Seanadóir O hAodha agus tá súil agam go bhfuil sé scrúdaithe go maith ag an Aire agus go mbeidh sé sásta glacadh leis.

Gearóid O Beoláin

Tá mé sásta.

Liam O Buachalla

Is maith é sin.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Hayes

I move amendment No. 2:—

To delete sub-section (6) and substitute instead the following sub-section:—

(6) The following members of the committee shall act as joint secretaries of the committee—

(a) the member nominated under paragraph (f) of sub-section (2) of this section, and

(b) the member nominated under paragraph (g) of the said sub-section or such one of the members so nominated as the Government may from time to time select,

and there shall be paid to each joint secretary such remuneration (if any) as the Minister for Finance may from time to time direct.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed: "That Section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hayes

Might I ask if it is intended to submit to this committee the work done by the translation department here in Leinster House, or if it is intended to make available to the public—I think it should be done altogether independently of this committee—a vocabulary of the terms which have been used by the official translators in the last 20 years? It would be a great advantage to students of Irish if that vocabulary were made available. That is one thing; another point is the putting of the imprimatur, the seal of approval, upon certain of the terms. I know the Minister for Justice is not primarily responsible for such a publication. That matter was mentioned before, and it is very important; I do not know when we might have another opportunity of raising it, and I should like to know if it is intended to publish such a vocabulary. A great deal of money is being spent on the publication of Irish books, and I think some of it could very easily be spared for this particular thing, which is much more valuable than a great deal of what we see coming into print.

Mr. Boland

I am sure there will be a vocabulary published, but it would first have to go before the committee. If we were to publish all the terms agreed upon so far by the Oireachtas translation staff, it might happen in some cases that there would be differences when it came to the committee. Senator Hayes will admit that there might be confusion.

Mr. Hayes

Oh, yes.

Mr. Boland

Once it is submitted to the committee and approved, then I take it that it will be published in the usual way for the general public. I have not gone into the matter myself, but I am pretty sure that will be done. It will have to be authoritative. That is what the Senator meant?

Mr. Hayes

No. My difficulty is that the publication which the Minister contemplates is piecemeal publication —naturally so in the nature of things —over a number of years. Unless I am greatly mistaken, this committee will work with remarkable slowness. The only way in which it could work rapidly would be by adopting what has already been done. It would be well worth while to see what actually has been done, without necessarily giving them legal authority at all. It seems to me that the vocabulary would be very useful. Indeed, it goes far outside legal terms. For instance, in the last six years, in translating Statutory Orders, particularly those made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the translation staff has done positively marvellous work in the way of finding terms for various things. They are not all by any means legal terms. The Minister for Justice will remember the kind of Order which the Minister for Industry and Commerce publishes, giving long lists of commodities and so on. All those terms should not be hidden, so to speak, in Statutory Orders, but should be available in the form of a vocabulary. If the publication is going to be done piecemeal it will be very slow, and of very little use to anybody but lawyers. I am thinking of the students rather than of the lawyers.

Mr. Boland

It was of the lawyers I was thinking. The other is a matter for somebody else, as Senator Hayes knows. I will raise the matter and see what can be done about it, but I am concerned only with legal terms in this Bill. I will have the matter raised in the right quarter. I cannot say anything about it, because I do not know what will happen, but I expect it will be possible to get it done.

Liam O Buachalla

There is one aspect of this question of publication which I should like the Minister to consider. In County Galway, a great deal of the court work is done in Irish and done very efficiently, as my colleague Senator O'Dea will confirm, but there seems to be a deliberate campaign to prevent the publication of those proceedings in the Irish language. That is one form of publication which I think is essential. We want terms. The terms will be provided. But how is the public going to get at those terms? Even the people of the Gaeltacht are debarred from becoming familiar with those terms owing to the action of certain local papers in consistently refusing to publish the reports of cases heard in the Irish language. I know it is rather a tall order to ask the Minister to see if he can compel the papers to give adequate publicity to cases conducted in Irish, but at the same time I think the matter ought to be mentioned in public, and if anything can be done by the Minister I hope it will be done as soon as may be.

Mr. O'Dea

I should like to add my voice to what Senator O Buachalla has said in reference to this matter. Constantly, in the west, cases are heard entirely in Irish. They are published in English. Our district justice made a protest against that, and the only change which was made is that at the end of the English report you will see the words: "This case was conducted in Irish", or "This case was conducted partly in Irish." If there is a word of English spoken, you will see: "This case was conducted partly in Irish." It is a pity that there should not be force; we know how English was forced on this country, through the courts mostly, and through Parliament. When cases are conducted in Irish, and are not published in that language, much of the good which would otherwise be achieved is lost.

Sections 3, 4, 5 and 6, and the Title, agreed to.

Bill ordered to be reported.

Agreed to take the remaining stages now.

Bill, as amended, received for final consideration and passed.

Ordered: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 1945