Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022

Vol. 289 No. 5

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Illegal Dumping

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. We have talked about this issue previously in the Chamber and privately. I am quite happy that the Government enacted the circular economy legislation. The Minister of State will be aware of the Bill I brought forward to deal specifically with these issues. Within the circular economy legislation there are very welcome provisions that will allow for the deployment of CCTV and other technologies in order to be able to catch those who are engaging in illegal dumping. While in the past local authorities could use the technology there was not the necessary underpinning legal framework and a number of them fell foul of the Data Protection Commissioner. The legislation now allows for them to do this.

While it is certainly the case that local authorities, tidy towns groups, and various local development associations want to see this rolled out as quickly as possible on a national basis they also want to ensure, now the provisions are in legislation, that the local authorities make effective use of them and that the local authorities have the resources necessary to do this, including the deployment of CCTV or other necessary technologies to be able to catch those involved in illegal dumping. What is the Government's approach to make sure that local authorities follow through on this? Are there any plans to make resources available to local authorities in order that they will have the equipment to deal with what is involved?

We are aware of the impact this illegal dumping has on our environment. We know the impact it has on animals and livestock. It is unsightly and undoes a lot of the great work of tidy towns groups and local development committees. There is a cost to local authorities in having to clean up after all of this dumping. When I survey local authorities they estimate that nationally it could cost up to €90 million or €100 million per year to clean up after dumping and littering right across the country. Any spending to combat this behaviour will come back to local authorities given the savings that are involved.

We need a significant campaign to finally stop the blight of illegal dumping. It is happening in urban areas and it is happening in rural areas. It really annoys people. Over this winter and into next summer, I would like to see a concerted effort on the part of the Government in supporting local authorities to combat this.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I sincerely thank Senator Malcolm Byrne for bringing this issue to the House and for providing the political will for it to happen. It is all very well to have strategies and theories, but it actually takes somebody to really push something, and to put a bit of effort and passion into it, for it to happen. We are very grateful to the Senator for that.

Everybody wants this. Everybody has a right to live in a clean environment. People are outraged when they see washing machines and beds thrown by the side of the road besmirching our beautiful countryside. The Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 came in during July. A number of provisions were identified in the waste action plan, including providing for the general data protection regulation-compliant use of a range of technologies such as CCTV. The Act facilitates the use of CCTV and, in more limited situations, the use of mobile recording devices such as body cams and drones.

The Act provides for the establishment of CCTV schemes under either the Litter Pollution Act or the Waste Management Act. The use of other mobile recording devices such as drones and body cams is provided for only under the Waste Management Act. Those advanced recording devices will only be used for dumping rather than littering: the use needs to be proportionate. The use of drone and body cam technology is especially important for the waste enforcement officers. I commend their ongoing efforts. They often have to deal with significant levels of criminality in the course of their investigative work. They can face threats to their own safety.

In order to address data protection concerns, the Act also sets out a number of conditions that must be complied with prior to the introduction and the use of CCTV and other mobile recording devices by local authorities. The Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, is required to prepare and submit draft codes of practice to the Minister for approval.

These codes of practice will set certain standards for the operation of CCTV schemes and the use of mobile recording devices in deterring environmental pollution and facilitating the prevention, detection and prosecution of illegal dumping offences.

The LGMA has already begun work on the preparation of these codes of practice and is engaging with the Data Protection Commission and other State agencies to ensure they are fit for purpose. Following the completion of the drafting process, the codes of practice will be submitted to the Minister for approval. Once approved, local authorities will be advised of the appropriate procedures to be followed and they will then be in a position to initiate measures involving the general data protection regulation-compliant use of CCTV and other mobile recording devices. It is hoped that this process will be completed in early 2023. It is important to note that the use of the technologies will be restricted to appropriate authorised personnel only and will require ongoing justification for installation and use. The combination of legislation and guidance will help to ensure that the processing of personal data can be carried out by local authorities, thus providing an important deterrent to those who brazenly flout our litter and waste legislation, while at the same time respecting the privacy rights of our citizens.

The use of CCTV and mobile recording devices in assisting with waste-enforcement activity is primarily an operational matter for local authorities; however, my Department continues to support local authority efforts to tackle illegal dumping through the anti-dumping initiative, with €3 million allocated to the initiative in 2022. Since the introduction of the anti-dumping initiative in 2017, over €12 million has been provided to local authorities across the country in support of over 1,200 projects. Local authorities continue to work in conjunction with community groups and State agencies to identify problem areas and develop appropriate enforcement and clean-up responses. The success of the initiative underlines what can be achieved when State agencies liaise directly with community groups. The ongoing desire of people to engage in local action to combat illegal dumping is evident. It is crucial that we continue to engage, support and resource communities in their efforts.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Minister of State for his personal commitment in this area. The legislation is welcome, as he said, and it has the necessary safeguards, but the key is rolling out the codes of practice. While I welcome the commitments, we should try to see that the LGMA gets the codes to the Minister for approval and that, from 2023, local authorities will be in a position to adopt them. By the spring, no local authority should have an excuse that it has not got the necessary general data protection regulation compliance codes in place to roll out the technologies.

I welcome the anti-dumping initiative funding. It may be a case of providing some of the CCTV equipment. If local authorities come produce a proposal, I hope the Government will look favourably on it. However, we have got to ensure that 2023 will be the year in which we really tackle the scourge of illegal dumping.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I have been in contact with the LGMA committee that is drawing up the code of practice. I met litter wardens in both Cork and Dublin so I could talk directly to the people on the ground who are dealing with this criminality. I have also spoken to the chair of the committee, Mr. Liam Bergin, and have constantly asked for updates. I understand the committee has now drafted its code of conduct. It is in discussions with the Data Protection Commission to make sure it is happy. Thereafter, it will be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. I expect it will come into force early in the new year and that we will see prosecutions and, more important, a reduction in illegal dumping in black spots.

Renewable Energy Generation

Senator Paul Daly

I welcome the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, to the House to deal with this issue. It is straightforward. As the Minister of State is well aware, the targeted agricultural modernisation schemes, better known as TAMS, have been modified. I warmly welcome the exceptional opportunity afforded to farmers to avail of a grant of up to 60% to install solar panels, up to a maximum expenditure limit of €90,000, and believe the initiative is brilliant. However, by virtue of the fact that the money is EU money, with associated rules along the lines of state aid rules, the EU has stipulated that the electricity produced by grant-aided panels may be used only on the farm on which it is generated. This eliminates the opportunity to export excess power to the grid at a time when the EU is calling emergency summit after emergency summit and meeting after meeting to discuss energy shortages. Dumping excess energy, rather than exporting it to the grid for use in a constructive manner, sends out the wrong message and narrative.

The farming community is being disincentivised from going down the road of solar. If there were some economic potential associated with the excess power produced, we would have a lot more buy-in. The Minister of State is from rural Ireland and is as aware as I am of the vast number of farm shed roofs and the potential for solar panels. There is considerable potential, but, as long as excess power is being dumped rather than being fed into the grid, we will not have the buy-in we require. Considering the exceptional times we are in and the global energy crisis, the Department needs to find out from the EU authorities whether there is a way around this. Even something along the lines of a contract whereby the farmer would get credit during the winter for power he produces during the summer could be considered. Anything that would avoid the dumping of energy produced would be beneficial. It smells terribly of ticking a box whereby the State can congratulate itself on being brilliant at putting in loads of solar panels. This will not result in our getting the maximum benefit from them.

I welcome the initiative and scheme but, without pre-empting the Minister of State’s answer, I believe the solution is in Europe. I urge her Department to contact the EU authorities to see whether we can reverse the policy. If there were an incentive of some sort and financial potential associated with the exportation of surplus power to the grid, there would be a lot more buy-in. It would enhance our drive to go green in the agriculture sector and alleviate the problems associated with some, but not all, of the energy shortages from which we are currently suffering.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Senator Pippa Hackett)

I thank the Senator for raising this matter. This is a pertinent issue that arises frequently.

I welcome the opportunity to provide an update on solar applications for farmers under TAMS. TAMS is an on-farm investment scheme co-funded by the EU. Under the current EU regulations and the new CAP strategic plan, it is not permitted to sell excess energy generated by grant-aided investments to the grid. Energy generated can be consumed only on the holding. That is the nature of the grant.

The solar photovoltaic, PV, systems currently grant-aided under TAMS include solar PV panels and solar PV rechargeable batteries and solar panels – solar thermal – for water heating under the pig and poultry capital investment scheme. An on-farm solar PV survey must be completed and submitted with the application to quantify the holding’s electricity power requirement and the planned electricity supply from the proposed development. Again, we are aligning the installation of panels with consumption on the farm because that is the intent of the grant under the TAMS. An application may be rejected or amended if the applicant cannot demonstrate that all of the electricity produced from the PV panels will be consumed on the agricultural holding. As such, any applicant under the TAMS will not, when generation is averaged over the year, have excess electricity to sell to the grid. It is balanced with the delivery of power from the solar panels.

My colleague the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, recently announced on foot of the budget that the electricity consumption of the dwelling house can now be included with immediate effect on the solar survey as part of the holding for sizing the solar PV installation. The dwelling house must be occupied by the herd owner or family member and situated on the holding. This is now open for application.

It is interesting to note that solar investments were initially included only in the pigs and poultry investment scheme launched in August 2015 and were subsequently added to the remaining TAMS on a pilot basis in 2019. It is very useful and has been well subscribed. To date, my Department has paid grant aid to 161 beneficiaries in respect of solar installations on farms. The maximum size of panels eligible for grant aid currently is 62 kW for the pig and poultry scheme and 11 kW for all other eligible TAMS II schemes.

To encourage further increased uptake in solar applications, my Department is proposing to make further changes to the scheme. This includes increasing the kilowatts for solar applications in TAMS 3 to 30 kW from 11 kW currently. This will bring in more high-energy intensive farms and cover their ever-increasing electricity usage and costs through on-farm generation.

We are also retaining the current limit of 62 kW remaining for the pigs and poultry investment scheme. It is proposed that the grant rate will increase to a 60% grant and a stand-alone investment ceiling of €90,000 for solar panels on farms from 2023 onwards. In a time of rising energy costs, the scheme will enable every farmer to generate their own power for their dwelling and holding, and will help to achieve a more sustainable rural economy, assisting farmers in reducing energy costs on their holdings. The changes are subject to approval of the rural development plan, RDP, amendment by the European Commission. The amendment is currently with the monitoring committee of the RDP for its views before its formal submission to the Commission.

TAMS is not the only option for farmers. There are other State supports for the installation of solar panels, including from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, and farmers should examine all options for support. Panels can be installed in tandem with the TAMS investment. For those farmers who wish to do this at scale, this is a further option for those keen to explore renewable energy generation which can be sold into the grid.

Senator Paul Daly

I accept the Minister of State's answer. As I said in my initial summation of the issue, the Department at least needs to put the question to Europe. A lot of money is available and is being expended. Neither the State nor the European Union is getting full value for it. The terms and conditions of the scheme stipulate that farmers cannot supply energy to any organisation outside their holding. Those requirements were probably penned long before the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia and before many of the problems we have today arose. The matter needs to be revisited and we need to be to the fore in asking if it can be reconsidered in the European Union.

Everybody here thinks of dairy farms which have high consumption. Some beef farms have considerable roof space. Those farmers are not milking cows or weaning. They are using little or no power and have massive potential to provide energy to the grid or to their local community in some way. We keep talking around these issues. There are solutions and we do not seem to be prepared to grasp the nettle. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine should be banging on the door, as it were, in Brussels to find out if this can be changed given our new circumstances on the back of the illegal war and the energy crisis we face.

Senator Pippa Hackett

This has come up on a number of occasions in recent months and indeed years. I understand we have examined this with the Commission. I agree some farms have roof space, but that potential will not be achieved through the TAMS grant which is for the purpose of consumption on the farm and those are the rules attached to it. However, it does not stop farmers examining other options and possibly coming together in a community energy setting. There are examples across Ireland where communities have come together to generate their own energy and generate incomes from that. I do not see why farmers should be any different. I encourage farmers who are interested in this to reach out to the SEAI and come together.

In recent weeks I have held meetings with farmers in attendance. It is a sustainable energy community and there is scope. If my Department can provide support to do that, I am happy to reach out and we will see what there is. Unfortunately, the TAMS grant does not have to scope to do this because it is ultimately for self-consumption. If farmers do not use what they are meant to be using, unfortunately, it will be wasted.

Special Educational Needs

Senator John McGahon

I have tabled this matter after the Minister of State's recent visit to Dundalk. Two weeks ago she kindly came to County Louth and went to Coláiste Chú Chulainn and the CBS primary school. She met the principal of Coláiste Chú Chulainn, Thomas Sharkey, and she also met Maria Doyle, a teacher in the CBS primary school. Mr. Sharkey and Ms Doyle made some key points that day and I wanted to bring them back to this House.

There is a real fear among the school community and parents in County Louth about the provision and allocation of school places for children with autism going into secondary schools. That fear is not based on anecdotes or what somebody might have said to somebody else. The fear is based on the data on the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, website. North of a line from Kilsaran in County Louth to the Meath-Monaghan border, there are 24 primary schools which have 24 special classes with six pupils in each class, which is 144 students in total. Half of the geographical county lies north of that line and includes the town of Dundalk containing 42,000 people. That area has 24 special classes in primary schools. However, the eight secondary schools have only three special classes, accommodating 18 pupils. In the coming years we will need to get 144 students into 18 spaces. The Minister of State officially opened two of them. Two of them are in Coláiste Chú Chulainn and the third is in St. Vincent's school.

The issue is about ensuring we have capacity and availability in secondary schools in the north Louth and Dundalk area to accommodate the primary school pupils in special classes. Families are sitting around the kitchen table trying to make decisions on which secondary school their children might go to. I know the Minister of State agrees with me on this because we have discussed it. It is unfair and wrong that a family should have to make a decision about where to send one child and not another based on the diagnosis one child might have. Children have an absolute right to go to the same school as their siblings, neighbours or friends. We want to see capacity in all those eight secondary schools in Dundalk and north Louth.

What will be done for September 2023? The 18 spaces in those three schools are already full for next September. I personally know of six pupils who will need one of those 18 spots, but it is oversubscribed. Those six students will be without a space for September 2023. What will be done in the short term, by September 2023, to try to accommodate those extra students? What will be done in the long term for the years from 2024 to 2028 to ensure the 144 pupils currently in primary education have a space when they reach secondary school?

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank the Senator for the invitation to visit Dundalk and Louth. When I visited Coláiste Chú Chulainn, I was extremely impressed by the principal, Mr. Sharkey, and the incredible work he has done in opening two special classes in the school. I was also impressed by the incredible work by Maria Doyle and Eileen Harte in the CBS primary school. I also went to St. Colmcille's in Tullydonnell to see the four autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes and met the principal, Anne Marie Forde. There are incredible examples in these schools of the work they are doing in mainstream inclusion but also in opening special classes, which is something that, as Minister of State with responsibility for special education, I acknowledge and encourage. I thank the Senator for his interest in this extremely important area. The issues he has raised are also important.

One of the measures I managed to secure in this particular budget and budget 2023 was extra resources for the National Council for Special Education, NCSE. The staffing levels in the NCSE had not changed since 2004 or 2007. Now we managed to secure a €13 million payment to the NCSE. In those circumstances it will be able to employ an additional 160 staff members, who are advisers and special educational needs organisers, SENOs. SENOs are critical when talking about that communication piece with parents and families through the schools, whether it is primary or post-primary, in terms of obtaining an appropriate placement for their child.

The Senator referred to education being a right. It is a right for every child in this country, regardless of whether they have an additional need or not. The first thing we have to do, and it is enshrined in the Constitution, is to find an appropriate placement for the child. The second thing we try to do then is to try to find a placement in the locality for that child. That has proved to be a challenge, not just for children with additional needs but other children as well who have to travel on buses to obtain a school they can attend because their local school may be fully booked up. It is a particular challenge for children with additional needs because they are more vulnerable. That is something I am increasingly aware of and something the Ombudsman for Children mentioned in his report in terms of travel, but in the first instance, we want to make sure every child has an appropriate placement.

In Louth this year, as we know, all children with additional needs were catered for. We have 69 special classes in total in Louth at the moment - 54 in primary and 15 in post-primary. There were 13 new classes for September 2022 - 11 primary and two post-primary. That is a significant addition to what was there originally. The Senator asked in particular about the future and forward planning. When I came into this role, which was specially created, so I am the first Minister with responsibility for special education, we had a wide look at the forecasting models already in existence and at how we could improve these, ameliorate planning and make sure there was that proper sharing of data between the Department, the schools and the NCSE. We have a new forecasting model in place which is over a five-year-period. The Senator is quite right. I do not have the particular data but I take him at his word. I am not sure is he talking about 18 classes or 18 spaces because, there is obviously a difference.

Senator John McGahon

Eighteen places. Three classes.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

There is a difference there. If there are 144 students in primary school at the moment and we assume the majority of those will be going on to post-primary, we have to make sure we have the placements for them. The NCSE is aware of that. Mr. John Kearney, who is the new CEO, will be able to recruit extra staff to implement that and use our forecasting model to be able to anticipate where there is capacity in local schools and how we can provide for them. We have the new legislation as well which can assist us with that.

Senator John McGahon

I thank the Minister of State. That is very reassuring, especially when she mentioned Mr. John Kearney, who I know the Minister of State has said will facilitate a visit to Dundalk in the future. One point I will make is that the extra staff are very welcome and will provide a real ability to cater for these children however there is an issue of actual physical capacity. By that I mean there are a number of secondary schools in Dundalk that have been secondary schools for 100 to 150 years. They are right in the middle of the town centre and it is very difficult, because of the physical nature of where they are, for them to expand. We need to do some work with the building unit in Tullamore to try to see what we can do for those types of schools in large provincial towns such as Dundalk that are physically boxed in and do not have the space to expand. I am glad to see there is forward planning but the point is we have 18 spaces in this whole part of north Louth and we have 144 children. I am really heartened to hear that the Minister of State is going to work with me over the next couple of years to ensure those 144 children will have a proper space when they move to second level education.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

It goes without saying that there are, and will be, conversations we are not aware of that are ongoing with schools in Louth and in the environs and that would not be publicly available. Those children may already be catered for, but that is something on which I can update the Senator. One of the things we want to do is to make sure that gap between primary and post-primary is closed, not only in Louth but throughout the country, so that nobody falls off a cliff and there is an appropriate placement for them to continue on with their education. We have the legislation in place now in terms of section 37A but also section 67, where the NCSE can designate a child to a school if needs be. It is important to say that the majority of places are opened without recourse to the section 37A legislation, but it is there if we need it. There is also the additional accommodation scheme whereby the Department, through the planning and building unit, can provide extra funding to reconfigure the school itself to provide that extra capacity where it is needed, as long as the school is willing to do so. I thank all of the schools and I mentioned some in the Senator's constituency and locality earlier. I thank other schools as well that volunteer as it goes a huge way to helping these children with additional needs, which ultimately is what this is all about.

Emergency Departments

Senator Seán Kyne

Ar dtús báire, gabhaim buíochas le hoifig an Chathaoirligh as ucht an deis a fháil labhairt ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo. É sin ráite, is mór is trua nach bhfuil aon duine de cheathrar Airí ón Roinn Sláinte i láthair inniu.

Tá an t-eolas is déanaí á lorg agam ar stádas an togra ar son rannóg éigeandála nua d'Ospidéal Choláiste na hOllscoile, Gaillimh. Is dea-scéal é go bhfuil an rannóg éigeandála sealadach ag feidhmiú faoi láthair, ach an faitíos atá orm ná go mbeidh an rannóg sealadach mar ionad buan mar gheall ar an moill atá ar an dtogra nua. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an tuairisc measúnú stráitéiseach ag an Roinn Sláinte faoi láthair, ach cén uair a cheadóidh an Roinn é le go mbeidh cead an togra a bhrú ar aghaidh go dtí an chéad chéim eile?

I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. This is a long-running saga that I have raised in the House on a number of occasions, which is the status of the application for a new emergency department in University Hospital Galway. The strategic assessment report, SAR, is presently with the Department of Health and has been since early summer. I am looking for an update on when that might be pushed along to the next step because we are still talking about the early stages on a process that has already in many people's eyes, and certainly in mine, taken far too long. We got a commitment in Galway at this time in 2018 from the then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, that the Saolta Hospital Group had said it would lodge the planning application for a new emergency department before Christmas 2018. Here we are now in the autumn of 2022 and we are still a very long way away from the lodging of the planning application. There is huge frustration.

I welcome the fact the new temporary emergency department in Galway that has 43 beds has opened, but the concern in the community is that this will be a permanent emergency department for years to come because we are waiting so long for a new emergency department. I know the temporary emergency department has 43 bays and it will enhance privacy and dignity for people arriving at it, but there are still high numbers of people on trolleys in Galway, as evidenced in Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, trolley watch. The Department of Health could confirm this time last year that one in eight patients on trolleys in Ireland were in University Hospital Galway.

There are serious issues with the capacity in Galway. The population, like all our cities, thankfully, is growing, which will put further pressure on services. There seems to be a slowness or an inability to push this project through the various stages of public spending. I appreciate it is now a larger and more complex project because it encompasses the maternity and paediatric units as well, which is welcome. However, the inability to lodge a planning application, which has been delayed for so long and is now tied up in the public spending code and the various processes and stages of that, is very worrying. It is very concerning for people in Galway who, for a long number of years, have looked at what is an inadequate emergency department.

I said to the Taoiseach when he was here before Christmas last year that he had raised this issue in 2015 in the Dáil with the then Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, and that Enda Kenny had said at the time the hospital was not fit for purpose. It still it is not fit for purpose. It is less fit for purpose than it was. Thankfully, the new temporary emergency department is open but we need to see this project pushed through the public spending code.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank Senator Kyne for raising this matter and for this opportunity to provide an update on the status of the new emergency department at University Hospital Galway. I also take this opportunity to acknowledge the very difficult and unacceptable conditions for patients and families and healthcare staff who work in University Hospital Galway.

I am pleased to say, as the Senator acknowledged, that an interim or temporary emergency department has opened in the hospital in recent weeks. That is a €13 million capital investment which has delivered an interim emergency department with more capacity, as mentioned by the Senator. There are now 43 patient bays compared with 34 bays in the pre-Covid emergency department. The unit also provides 43 single, closed cubicles and extra resuscitation bays thus providing greater dignity and privacy for patients in Galway. Practical completion of the interim emergency department was achieved in July 2022 and after a commissioning, equipping and training phase the unit opened over the weekend of 8 and 9 October.

I am aware this emergency department proposal has been discussed for the last ten years. I share the frustrations of the team in Galway and the patients there. One of the reasons that the proposal is still in a development phase is that there has been a very significant increase in the scale and ambition for the solution on the Galway site.

Originally the proposal was for a new multistorey emergency department block at an estimated cost of between €65 million and €120 million. However, as a result of service-led demands, the proposal now incorporates a new emergency department, and a new maternity and paediatric block which is likely to require capital investment of hundreds of millions of euro.

As the Senator will be aware, all projects proposed in excess of €100 million must be subject to the full scrutiny of the public spending code process. The code is designed to ensure that investment decisions are underpinned by a clear policy rationale and that costs are well understood. This ensures that maximum value for money can be achieved for the taxpayer through disciplined project evaluation, preparation and implementation.

The strategic assessment report for the proposal is under review by the various policy areas within the Department of Health to ensure its alignment with national policies and strategies. Also, this is being done to ensure that the scale and ambition of the proposal is in line with national policy objectives and affordability within the overall capital envelope.

Once the departmental review of the strategic assessment report is completed it will be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for review. If that Department finds that the strategic assessment report provides a basis to proceed then approval will be granted to develop the proposal by means of a preliminary business case. The interim emergency department and associated works will also serve as enabling works for the larger proposal subject to its approval under the public service code.

I have noted the Senator's comment that one in eight patients is on a trolley in University Hospital Galway. I accept that he welcomes the interim emergency department but does not want it to become the permanent solution. I know that there are concerns around that and the delays. I note the Senator got a commitment in 2018 and that we seem to be a long way off planning. The Senator wants to know why that has happened and I hope that I have outlined the reasons, and the processes, that must be followed in order to achieve the same outcome.

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister of State for reading the reply from the Department of Health. I appreciate that the new temporary emergency department has opened. One could be cynical and suggest that all of this is a delaying tactic by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Health and permanent Government to ensure moneys are not spent.

There are also delays with larger projects. Initially, this project included maternity and paediatrics but was only what is called a "shell and core". It did not include fit-out but it encompassed the design of the building and the structure to allow that to go to planning. The shape and scale of the building was still there. Had that gone to planning, it could be under construction, allowing the fit-out at a later date. Now, because the fitting-out of these two buildings has been included, the project has been pushed over the €100 million threshold which means it must go through a series of stages before being allowed to proceed. If one wants to delay a project then there are plenty of ways to do so. The public spending code can easily delay the most worthy of projects for a long number of years and that is why I am frustrated about something that has been talked about for a decade, as the Minister of State said in her response. It has been described as not fit for purpose. That means it is not fit for purpose for patients and the hardworking staff who are under great pressure. It continuously has a high number of patients on trolleys and, unfortunately, it will continue to have for some years to come because of more delays.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I will convey the Senator's concerns to the Minister for Health and the Department. The proposal for the new emergency department is now part of a larger development that incorporates maternity and paediatric services. It is a complex project that is in the early stages of design and progression. It is regrettable that it has taken this long. I hope that by the time this hospital is built it will be better and worth the wait. Probably getting it right in the first instance and putting all of these services in it at the right time is the right thing to do.

I appreciate the Senator's frustration. The fact that we now have these two extra buildings has pushed us over the €100 million mark, as the Senator said. It is subject to the spending code's requirements. In the long term, I think it will be worth it because there will be a state-of-the-art hospital that incorporates all of these measures. In the meantime, I hope the interim emergency department will assist the constituents of Galway. I thank the Senator for representing them today in the Seanad.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)

I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House today.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.17 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.30 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 11.17 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.