Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Feb 2023

Vol. 291 No. 8

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Senator Regina Doherty

The Order of Business today is No. 1, motion regarding the arrangements for the sitting of the House on Wednesday, 8 February, 2023, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 2, motion regarding the Nineteenth Report of the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight on the amendment of Standing Orders 19 and 65 and the temporary amendment of Standing Order 22, to be taken on conclusion of No. 1 without debate; No. 3, motion regarding the establishment of the special committee on assisted dying, to be taken on conclusion of No. 2 without debate; No. 4, motion regarding the appointment of an ordinary member to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, to be taken on conclusion of No. 3 without debate; and No. 5, the Family Courts Bill 2022 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to conclude at 1.15 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and time may be shared and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate.

Senators will note that today's sitting is to adjourn at 1.15 p.m. to facilitate Senators' attendance at the address by Ms Roberta Metsola, President of the European Parliament, to a joint sitting of both Houses of the Oireachtas in the Dáil Chamber at 2 p.m. The purpose of today's sitting is to mark the 50th anniversary of Ireland's accession to the European Union and to further the relationship between Ireland and the European Parliament.

Senator Seán Kyne

The general scheme of the registration of short-term tourist letting Bill is undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny at the moment. In his opening statement on 25 January, the principal officer at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage stated:

As the committee is aware, large numbers of properties have been withdrawn from the long-term rental market in recent years for use as more lucrative short-term lettings, in particular in larger urban centres where housing demand and need is most acute. This trend, which has been largely facilitated by online platforms, has had a negative impact on the supply and availability of long-term rental accommodation in the private rental sector and in driving up rents.

That is true. In his opening statement, the principal officer from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media stated, "The Government’s housing policy, Housing for All, includes the objective of making more efficient use of existing housing." That is also true. Housing is at a premium and the majority of people have no issue with the registration of self-catering accommodation and short-term letting. At a meeting in Buswells Hotel yesterday, the Irish Self Catering Federation highlighted a problem in this regard. I have also met a number of representatives from Connemara and have spoken to people in County Galway on this issue. Many small operators may have a converted old outhouse in the back or a garage that was converted for short-term letting. They may even be letting rooms in their own homes. Some holiday homes are used for two or three weeks by the owners but are also let on a short-term basis for six months. They have no problem with registering; the issue arises when they need to get planning permission, leading to problems with costs and the possibility of not being granted permission.

The motive behind this is to try to increase the supply of long-term letting with which I agree. However, the consequence is that people will just shut down. They will no longer let their properties and rooms. We will not have the long-term lets or the short-term lets. Those short-term lets are very important to the economy of places like north Connemara and elsewhere. It is also important to the owners of those properties. It is not that they will make a fortune, but they will make a few thousand euro after tax. It is important for that family. We need a debate on the matter of the Bill. I agree with the principle of what it is trying to achieve but there is considerable concern in certain areas about its consequences and that it will not achieve what it hopes and needs to achieve.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I call Senator O'Loughlin, I congratulate her on yesterday's wonderful event for Lá Fhéile Bríde.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

The first thing I was going to do was to thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for having the moment of silence for peace yesterday. I very much appreciated that. All the schoolchildren from Scoil Bhríde Athgarvan appreciated that you came down and gave so much time to them at our St. Brigid's cross-making workshop. I thank everybody from across the House who came. It was wonderful to have the buzz of children showing parliamentarians and staff how to make those crosses. It was a very special day for them as, of course, it was for everybody across the county of Kildare and throughout Ireland.

I also thank the Department of Foreign Affairs for the excellent presentation last night and the film it put together about the creativity of Irish women across the world. It was wonderful to have the President of the European Court of Human Rights, Síofra O'Leary, and Professor Aoife Nolan who is now the president of the European Committee of Social Rights. It is great to have two such wonderful women leading the way in human rights and democracy across Europe. Well done to all of them.

Of course, there will be continued activities leading up to and including the bank holiday this weekend, which will lead us to the Brigid 1500 event next year. It is a really good time. We need moments of reflection like those in our lives when we can celebrate St. Brigid and her legacy. When I was growing up in Kildare, I always thought she was a very cool saint. When we see everything she stands for now, that is absolutely the case.

We often hear of and pressures on our hospitals across the country and it is right to call attention to that. It is also important to highlight when things go right. Over the weekend, unfortunately a family member of mine had to go to the emergency department and was admitted to Naas hospital. Although I was not there, I must say that the care and support given was incredible. It was second to none. There were no long delays. It might have just been a question of luck. I thank the staff at Naas hospital and other hospitals who give everything they have to ensure that all those coming through their doors are treated with dignity, respect and the care they deserve.

I wish to mention schoolbooks. We are very lucky to have excellent independent bookshops such as Farrell & Nephew in Newbridge and Woodbine books in Kilcullen. There are smaller shops which sell schoolbooks such as Natasha's in Rathangan. There is a lack of clarity about the free schoolbooks scheme to be introduced in September. It is vital that these independent bookshops and other shops have the opportunity to supply these schoolbooks, which provides a lifeline to keep them open. We need to send the message from here that that is really important to our local economy and our local shops.

An Cathaoirleach

I join Senator O'Loughlin in congratulating the students from Scoil Bhríde. They were wonderful not just at making St. Brigid's crosses but also in having the patience to guide us. She might also convey our thanks to them.

Senator Sharon Keogan

I want to raise two issues that have been given some coverage this week. The first is the incident at the Ashtown migrant camp. This morning, I am not going to getting into who saw that or who said what, and I think that debate has played out on Twitter between individual journalists, and Senator Mullen addressed it here yesterday. The evidence or lack thereof is there for anyone with eyes to see.

A broader point coming out of all of this is why on earth we are only hearing about this encampment now. Ashtown is in Dublin, be it Dublin 15 or Dublin 7, so we have had at least one shanty tent encampment in our capital city for over a year. This tells us one of two things. Either the politicians in these Houses who serve that area did not know it was there, in which case it is a damning indictment of just how out of touch they are with their constituents, or they did know and did not do anything about it, which is equally damning as it shows how little care they have for their areas.

I am in this House three days a week and I can tell the Leader that I still know if there is a peep out of a mouse in Duleek or any part of east Meath, and it is similar in Navan when it comes to Councillor Alan Lawes. I urge the public to look very closely at which of their politicians have their ears on the ground, listening to the people and amplifying their voices, and which ones are happy to sit in their ideological ivory towers with their own agendas.

Speaking of agendas, the St. Patrick's Festival announcement went a bit heavy-handed with the progressivism, did it not? The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, had the good sense to wear some green, as did a handful of others, but front and centre were, bizarrely, women and girls in what appeared to be Spanish-style flamenco dresses. I spotted two cowboys, some girls in an odd sort of beetle costume like something out of a Marvel movie and, of course, the ever-present men in women's faces, who apparently must be included in every public display lest the Government risk the ire of terminally online woke Twitter addicts.

It was more than a questionable decision, many feel, to place a young girl of about eight years of age, 3 ft away from a man's crotch bulging out of tiny lace tights and underwear, and to take photos showing that, and then say, “Yip, that is what we want to represent Ireland internationally”, and run with it. I find myself agreeing with many citizens online who voiced the opinion that maybe, instead of the fetishistic exposure at our St. Patrick's Day parade, we just have St. Patrick. It worked very well for the past 400 years.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I would like to discuss the recently launched Youth Arts Now report. Research into youth arts is, unfortunately, lacking in comparison with other fields. I would, therefore, like to begin by acknowledging the hard work and dedication of John O'Brien and those who contributed to this report, including the Arts Council and the folks in Waterford. We have a long, noble and vibrant artistic history in Ireland. Indeed, I have often spoken of how, in my teenage years, I was politicised by our folk music and songs, some of which were the first great literary expression of the Irish people through the English language. However, despite our proud artistic history, youth art is, as recently noted in the Youth Arts Now report, facing several fundamental barriers to success, in particular a lack of a consistent and centralised source of funding to the sector.

Varying funding from county to county means that young people find themselves in a postcode lottery, and the lack of funding has also meant that youth arts has come to rely on volunteers. These dedicated individuals give their time, their energy, their imagination and their expertise for very little financial reward or gain. We are, therefore, relying on the professional status and pay of those working in the sector to deliver on this. Young people deserve the inspiration and the tools to forge their own creative and cultural paths, and it is vital that we consider the recommendation of this Youth Arts Now report and assess how best to support it. I call for a debate on the matter.

More broadly, I believe Ireland is excessively restrictive in terms of creating cultural activity. Where do I start? We have a litigious culture that stops events taking place, infrastructure that is in places non-existent, a lack of scale for people to organise events, and gatekeeping of bigger venues. Then there are the physically constrained Victorian spaces that were never designed for everyone and were designed primarily for the middle classes at that time.

Nowhere is this more restrictive and obvious at the moment than in the area of public art. Despite the undoubted artistic merit of street art and events, the number of spaces where street artists can legally paint remains few and far between. The closure of the Bernard Shaw and the demolition of the Tivoli Theatre have all but decimated the number of easily accessible spaces where young artists can practise their public art. The position is equally dire when it comes to private spaces, with planning law stopping that too.

I know members of SUBSET are here in Leinster House today and that a Bill will be launched in the Dáil on this issue around planning legislation. It cannot happen soon enough.

Senator Frances Black

I want to start by congratulating those involved with the launch of Dublin Communities Against Racism over the weekend, including my good friend and colleague, Senator Eileen Flynn. I found the recent eruption of racist anti-refugee protests to be deeply disturbing, and many of the leaders of these protests are spreading misinformation that plays on the fears and prejudices of ordinary people. It is commendable that in the wake of these protests, community members in places like Finglas and East Wall have banded together and formed local anti-racist groups to demonstrate that their communities are supportive and welcoming places, and are not represented by the far-right fringe.

These anti-refugee protests outside places where refugee children are staying are not an example of normal democratic protests. They represent the intimidation of vulnerable people that this State has a duty of care towards. The recent attack on a homeless encampment illustrates the clear and present danger posed by violent racists. There were public threats seen by thousands of people on social media before the attack, so why did the Garda fail to take action to prevent it? That is the question I would like to ask. This is very concerning. Measures need to be taken to safeguard those at risk. We must be proactive about dispelling the lies and distortion that the far right uses to organise. Community leaders in relevant areas need to be liaised with so they can build support in their community for the new arrivals and can tackle any unfounded fears or rumours they encounter.

The arrival of refugees into communities, particularly ones which experience significant neglect, can inspire anxiety about additional strains on public services, which is understandable. The communities that are hosting additional numbers of refugees need to be provided with adequate resources. On an important point, the Government must also ensure that exclusive, wealthy areas do their fair share as well. Perceptions that deprived communities must house refugee populations when affluent ones do not, fuel this far-right narrative of grievance and paranoia. I support the proposal mooted by Councillor Dermot Lacey to use the vacant Jury’s Hotel in Ballsbridge to house refugees. It makes practical sense and would send a message that all of us have a role to play in making sure Ireland is welcoming to refugees fleeing violence, deprivation and war.

Ireland is a country that resisted and defeated the racism and cruelty of colonialism. It is a country that has exported its population to all corners of the globe. To be Irish and racist is irrational but, unfortunately, it is increasingly prevalent. Those of us in the anti-racist majority need to be clear that we will not stand by and allow refugees to be used as scapegoats. Refugees are welcome in our communities and racists are not.

Senator Mark Wall

I want to raise a couple of matters with the Deputy Leader. The first is to seek a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications on the circular economy Bill which he has brought before these Houses. The reason I ask for such a debate is the unacceptable dumping that continues to blight our countryside, roads and towns and villages. Of course, great credit must go to all those involved in Tidy Towns associations and community groups that carry out such great work in all of our communities, and we see them every day and weekend on our roads and in the countryside. However, driving into Leinster House today and talking to so many people over the last number of weeks, the simple fact is that our roadsides are dumping grounds, and this problem is as bad as I and many other people have ever seen it.

Every road, woodland, street and country area seems to be considered a dumping ground for those who have no consideration for the people living there. It is unsightly. This problem is worse than I have ever seen it.

We talk about this beautiful green land we have, yet roadsides are covered in rubbish. There is no other way of putting it. I introduced a Bill on behalf of the Labour Party. Senator Malcolm Byrne introduced a similar Bill to encourage the use of CCTV to identify the perpetrators. Those Bills were accepted by the Government. The Minister thanked us both for our work on them, but, unfortunately, the problem is getting worse. Many people have raised this matter with me in the recent weeks. We need an urgent debate on this. The national spring clean initiative is on the way. A number of people in my community have been out and about in the past couple of weeks. They contacted me because they have found the problem to be as bad as ever. If a debate can be organised, it would be greatly appreciated. We need a debate on this matter as quickly as possible.

I also wish to raise the issue of school places in south Kildare. Yesterday I received a call from parents in the area whose 12-year-old child has still not got a school place. I continue to receive many such calls on a weekly basis. Colleagues in this House and the Lower House also receive such calls. The parents in question are worried because their 12-year-old does not yet have a school place. All her friends have places. That is the problem. She is looking around and knows the school she wants to go to but, unfortunately, she cannot get into that school, which all her friends will be going to. Her parents were worried about her mental health. They are worried about where she is going to go. This is what is happening to so many families in south Kildare. I would appreciate it if we could contact the Minister for Education again. I have contacted her several times, as have colleagues in this House. I appreciate that solutions are on the way. I know that new schools and extensions are being built, but the problem is that this child needs a place for September next. There is a need for someone to sit down with the public representatives. I would appreciate if the Deputy Leader could contact the Minister in respect of this matter.

An Cathaoirleach

I apologise to Senator Clonan. I did not know he was the lead speaker for his group.

Senator Tom Clonan

There is no need to apologise.

An Cathaoirleach

In the event of the group leader not being here, if a number of speakers in any group-----

Senator Victor Boyhan

They will always be sitting in that seat.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

I join Senator Black in commenting on the increase in the number of far-right anti-immigration protests across the city. We have seen lots of them in Ballyfermot and Drimnagh in the constituency of Dublin South-Central. Thankfully, and really encouragingly, local groups are coming together and hold protests against the far right. We have the Drimnagh For All and Ballyfermot for All groups. Since these groups were set up, the number of far-right protests in our area has decreased. The last protest the far right tried to organise was dampened down. If communities are considering joining groups such as those to which I refer, they should know that what they do works. When communities come together and make a statement that they are taking a certain stance and will not accept racism, people hear that and follow suit. When they see community leaders taking a certain stance, it is very impactful. We need to keep talking about, keep myth busting and keep putting out information explaining to people regarding why people are seeking refuge and why conflating the issues is not the right thing to do. People coming here are not getting houses from people who are on waiting lists. Many refugees coming to this country are in emergency-style accommodation all over the country and you are not comparing like with like. There is so much feeding of our fears. When these groups come together to put a stop to that, however, it really works.

We need to look at the international protection process and the timeframes involved. It is really unfair that people seeking international protection have to wait so long. Many of them have deportation orders hanging over their heads. That is institutional bullying. It is horrendous when you see families that are not really living their lives because they have deportation orders over them. We need to look at systems to get people working and integrated, and, ultimately, to maintain our stance that we are against racism.

Senator Tom Clonan

I will address the recent nursing home fees scandal and the withdrawal of disability payments to 12,000 people. I have the experience, as a parent and carer, of the day-to-day struggle to accessing citizenship in this Republic. It is very difficult. We are an outlier in European terms. This country is one of the worst places in the EU in which to have a disability or to be elderly, frail or vulnerable. I do not stand back from using those words. I have had the experience of lifting my adult son in the morning and looking after his intimate care needs. These are very intimate moments. It is quality time. We are trying to get him dressed and out of the house - to think there are able-bodied and well-educated people in positions of power who would conspire to suppress his rights. People in this Chamber may have had the experience of a parent who seemed invincible to them as though they would live forever. They might find themselves in that situation - lifting their parent on to the bed and looking after their intimate care needs. These are acts of love. This is not about the passive denial of somebody's rights. This is not about incompetence. This is about the proactive and premeditated use of the assets of the State to suppress the rights of our most precious citizens and I do not regard that as a sound strategy. I regard it as reprehensible. It violates the very social contract that exists between us as elected representatives and the people who vote for us and erodes public confidence in these Houses.

I ask Members to support me in calling for a full debate so that we find out precisely what happened here. If it is the case that the State's assets were used and mobilised and the State set its face against its own people, there needs to be accountability. I support the statement by the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Bacik, to the effect that this could be a watershed moment. We could get something positive from this in looking at the role of the Attorney General. Government by the people should be for the people. Society is measured by the way it treats its most vulnerable citizens and if that is our measure, it is reprehensible.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Senator Clonan is right. Society is measured by how it treats and values its most vulnerable. That is something none of us should ever forget. I am calling for a debate with the Minister for Justice on the motion passed unanimously in this House last week calling for a dedicated public transport Garda unit. My party campaigned on this issue in the last general election and included it in its manifesto. It did not make into the programme for Government but we have continued to work on this issue. Antisocial behaviour in any part of life is completely unacceptable. There is a particular focus on having gardaí deployed on public transport because as we are all trying to adjust and embrace climate action and reduce our private vehicle usage and encourage others to use or work in public transport, we need to ensure that it is not only reliable, efficient and affordable, it is safe. The results of our survey say that the vast majority of public transport workers and users who responded to it find it unsafe and would welcome the presence of gardaí on public transport. I would appreciate it if the Deputy Leader could arrange a debate in the House with the Minister for Justice on that issue.

Regarding the protests that are taking place around the country, I will not go into great detail because most of the points have already been made. It is incumbent on everybody, not just those in these Houses, to remember that to live free from fear of violence, intimidation and abuse is a basic human right. Each one of us needs to remember that. Let us not make excuses for attending protests that are designed to spread fear, intimidate and threaten violence. There is no excuse for it from anyone.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I absolutely support Senator Fitzpatrick’s point. I also support Senator Ardagh's comments highlighting the work of Drimnagh For All and Ballyfermot For All, of which we are both part, and the extraordinary coming together of the community to celebrate the diversity and inclusion and the spirit of welcome in the community. That is right and fantastic.

Speaking about the likes of Drimnagh, of all the community organisations and representatives within that community, Dynamic Drimnagh is coming together. It has the most amazing strategic plans. It highlights all of the incredible work that is done on the ground in Drimnagh and it is fantastic. Hence, Drimnagh For All was easy to be birthed because there was already amazing work on the ground welcoming, including and ensuring an inclusive community there. However, funding these organisations and funding infrastructure for the community of Drimnagh are very low on the list. For instance, in the past couple of years, one developer has put up two developments that have netted Dublin City Council more than €11 million, yet none of that is being spent in Drimnagh. In the past week, the council has announced beautiful tea rooms that will happen in Merrion Square and in other areas of the city, which will be funded by the development levies that are coming in from the likes of Drimnagh, which is seeing minimal investment.

I agree and I understand this is the province of councillors and local authorities. However, I would ask that we have some level of oversight or interaction with the Minister. I wrote to both the Minister and Minister of State in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to engage with me to find out whether we put in imposed criteria on local authorities. If there is a community that is underfunded for such a long time, there will naturally be dissatisfaction and they naturally will feel they are left out. It is important we address that and that there is equity. Where money is collected, a ring-fenced amount of that should be spent in that community for its infrastructure and care.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I wish to raise two things. I would like to ask that No. 2 on the proposed Order of Business before us today is not taken. I do not want to get into the detail of it. I would like us to have more reflection and consideration with the Leaders and the Whips. That is the simple proposal I would ask. I would hope we can get-----

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

Senator Victor Boyhan

I propose an amendment. I would hope we can get a consensus on it.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator proposing that No. 2 not be taken?

Senator Victor Boyhan

Yes. I am proposing that No. 2 not be taken today.

Second, on the mother and baby homes redress scheme, I met a few people here yesterday who had been sitting in the Gallery and were totally devastated when they left late last night. We will have an opportunity to discuss this issue again. I commend Deputies Boyd Barrett and Cairns on their moving pieces on “Morning Ireland” this morning. They covered many of the issues. We in the Seanad are an advising Chamber. In time, when the process is finished in the Dáil, it is to be hoped we will have regard to the wonderful work the committee on children has done and the engagement in this area. I would hope we would come together and see whether we can in some way make some proposals based on some of the amendments that came to the Dáil. I say that in a constructive way. I do not doubt anyone in this Chamber. Let us shine our star with this legislation. I commend it to people to tune in on the playback to RTÉ’s “Morning Ireland” this morning.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I fully support Senator Clonan and will support the idea of a debate on carers and people who look after those who are vulnerable. That is important. In the context of all that has been revealed in recent times, we need to have a debate.

While I understand people might have issues relating to migrants and developing centres, I absolutely deplore and abhor violence and people who are trying to stir up trouble. That is the last thing we want. We should all be resolute on that in this Chamber. By all means, we take on board the comments and concerns of people. However, some of the outrageous lies going out in social media are very concerning.

I want to use most of my time to speak about increasing interest rates. It now looks like we will have a further increase in mortgage rates. While I acknowledge the work done by the present Government, the Minister for Finance and indeed the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, we have managed to get to a place where the average mortgage rate here is 2.8%, which is the third lowest now in Europe. We have gone from being almost at the top down to 2.8%, which is the third best in Europe.

My concern is about people who are on 6% and 7% mortgage rates, basically from vulture funds. Those people are in trouble already and I am concerned about them. There are a serious number of them. I heard the Minister for Finance speak about this and he is in talks with the Central Bank. I ask that we would agree to write to the Central Bank to express our concern on behalf of those people. The last thing we want is people in trouble with mortgages. It brings huge stress on families and children. It is a serious issue and I would like to see us address it. Perhaps we could get agreement from everybody that we would write to the Central Bank expressing our deep concern about that very high interest rate of up to 7% being charged by some vulture funds.

Senator Paul Gavan

I wish to raise, once again, the case of Julian Assange. Last week, while at the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, I attended a side event that was chaired by Dr. Pieter Omtzigt MP of the Netherlands and member of the European People’s Party. He is a very impressive politician who I have worked with before. He spoke passionately about why Julian Assange should be free. He spoke not just on the personal horrific treatment that Assange suffered, which was described, by the way, as a prolonged public execution, but also about the fact it is essential to the freedom of the press that a journalist should not be imprisoned and threatened with 175 years of imprisonment because he told the truth about war crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas. That is why Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and a host of newspapers across the world, including The Irish Times, have called for his release.

That evening, I heard directly from Stella Assange, Julian’s wife, about the impact on his two young children of seeing their father locked up for 23 hours a day in horrific conditions at Belmarsh Prison, where he is released just for one hour a day. Let us be clear as to why this is happening. This is happening because the USA wants to send a clear message that if you tell the truth about what its armies did and its war crimes, you will face a lifetime in jail.

I was encouraged by the fact that there is a broadening cross-party consensus in Europe that we cannot stand for this and we have to stand up for freedom for Julian Assange. The Deputy Leader has taken courageous stands before. I ask her to call for his freedom today, along with her colleague from the European People’s Party, and call for a debate on the issue. We cannot allow this. We cannot pick and choose when it comes to human rights. If we rightly call out the crimes that Russia has made against people in Ukraine and we rightly call out the crimes against people imprisoned for speaking the truth in Russian, then we have to equally stand up for Julian Assange. The silence to date from far too many politicians is not acceptable anymore. I ask all of us to stand with Julian Assange.

Senator Emer Currie

I welcome the move by the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O’Gorman, to formally bring childminding into childcare regulations. I welcome the language he used when he said that it is to be in a way appropriate to the home environment. My family has used childminders and I had a childminder in County Tyrone all those years ago. In fact, her name is Bridget Hughes and I chose Bridget as my confirmation name. I passed that on to my daughter, who is Rebecca Bridget, so we had a lovely day yesterday. It shows the power and impact of the childminding relationship and feeling part of their family. I really appreciated that.

We do not want to scare off women who have decades of experience in this. We have to do it in a sensitive way. At the same time, at the moment, childminders or the people in the home do not even need to be vetted. They need access to supports, training and first aid. Of course, we have the national childcare scheme bringing in subsidies for parents who use childminding as well.

My two criticisms are that it looks like it will take a long time - it could take three to five years although there might be some movement in 2024 - and that it needs to be ambitious. We have a major issue when it comes to the supply of baby rooms. Other countries use an approach to childminding called "day parents". More men do it - two men are registered with Childminding Ireland - and it is a more standardised approach. We should also be looking at models like that. Our city and council childcare committees should have representation from the childminding sector.

Will the Cathaoirleach indulge me for one minute to say how much my thoughts are with Michael Gallagher this morning? His son, Aiden, was murdered in the Omagh bombing in 1998. Chris Heaton-Harris is to announce today whether the British Government will hold an inquiry. An inquiry led by both the British and Irish Governments is needed. The victims and survivors deserve that.

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome to the Public Gallery the pupils and teachers of the Castleknock National School who are visiting Leinster House today. They are all very welcome. Céad míle fáilte romhaibh go léir.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Last Saturday I was privileged to stand with county councillors and people from local communities such as Ballyfermot, Bluebell, Clondalkin and Drimnagh, people from working class communities. I do not like saying the far right or far left and all this crap. If you give a damn about people, you give a damn about people, end of story.

However, to see the number of people who showed up on Saturday was heartwarming for me. While we focus on racists and hatred in this House, there are only approximately 20 people in all of Leinster House, including the two Houses, who really care about those on the margins of Irish society. That is out of 220 people. It is a sad time to see the hate that is going on in our society. Yesterday on social media - I try not to look at these videos of hate - a man minding his own business walking down the street was stopped by a bully. If a member of the Traveller community did it, we would be called "knackers" and "scumbags" but it is okay for those who are bullies in our society. They are nothing more than bullies.

What we need to do is work with our local communities that are already on the margins of society. It is the job of all of us in the House to bring them back and make them realise that other human beings are not the problem. I keep bringing this up. It is the policies and legislation we have in place. People could say that we are part of the Government and it is not our fault, but is the fault of all of us. We need to be true to our communities. End of story.

To see the racism in this House, to see that Members of this House can stand up and speak so much hatred of immigrants, of people coming into the country. Shame on them. They do not know what it is like to be at the margins of society. Having a trans friend does not mean you will stand with trans people. Having a Traveller friend does not mean you will stand up with Travellers. It is not about saying in this House "I stand with". There is no right or wrong way to be a racist. There is no such thing as a nice racist. If you act to be racist, the "but" does not stop it. The "but" still makes the person feel rejected and hated.

Senators

Hear, hear

Senator Paul Gavan

Well done.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I will continue the conversation about how we support our local communities. This morning the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, launched a guide for inclusive community engagement in local planning and decision making. It is a good start to many things but I briefly glanced through the document and there is nothing compulsory in it. It is guidance. There is no financial support to local government and no training.

We have a legal responsibility under our public sector duty. It is in the Act that set up the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. We have responsibilities to enable our communities to rise. This is a good starting point, but we need to look at it and pull it apart to see how we can support it in a local community. If we do not engage with communities, including marginalised communities; if we do not have a full-time officer in our local governments working, listening and understanding what is going on; if people in the planning departments of our local authorities do not understand what accessible planning and development are, we will not get the answers. This is a lovely guide about engagement, but there is nothing statutory in it. There is no stipulation about how projects should be examined. No funding should be given to local government for projects that are not disability proofed or inclusivity proofed. No funding should be handed over to anyone for projects that are not inclusive.

I ask for a debate on integration with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, as if we raise one community, we raise every community. It will cost less in the long run to be inclusive and will make a better stronger community. We need full-time workers in our local authorities. We need active engagement.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the Heritage Council funding for biodiversity officers for a number of local authorities that was announced this morning. We still need to see more local authorities come on board. Funding has been announced for Galway County Council and it is at an advanced stage of getting that person on board, but we also need to see it for Roscommon.

Biodiversity is important. We see it happening. In Roscommon we have the Ballydangan Bog Red Grouse Project which has been amazing. It has been bringing landowners together with ecologists to protect the environment. The project manages the landscape to protect curlews. The shooting or hunting club works with farmers and landowners to protect curlews. One of the highest numbers of pairs of curlews in Ireland are based in the Ballydangan Bog Red Grouse Project. This is a shining light for so many areas . It is based in the bogs around Moore and it is crucial.

Biodiversity happens in our communities and it is important we have officers to help and work with communities, farmers and landowners on the ground. Everything is not separate to policies in headquarters in local authorities. It must happen with community groups on the ground. I acknowledge that and the people who do the work such as Galway's Living Bog in Mountbellew which is another great project. It is making the bog come alive for community groups and students. It has built a walkway where people can explore and see some of the bogs and wetland areas. It is wetlands day today.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I second the amendment of my colleague, Senator Boyhan, to the Order of Business.

My grandmother used to say to me "mind the pennies and the pounds will mind themselves". As the Cathaoirleach will be aware, I have spoken here and in committees about the contract for search and rescue which is currently being negotiated by the Government. The contract will cost somewhere north of €1.3 billion for five helicopters over four bases. Our colleagues in the UK have 18 helicopters over 12 bases for €1.6 billion. We will pay roughly €250 million more per base over the ten years of the contract.

I heard the Minister, Deputy Ryan, on Newstalk radio yesterday evening - it is there for everyone to listen to - talking about how they had to go after the HSE charges against the old and the impoverished families and how they had to take legal advice. I have been screaming at him for two and a half years, asking him to look at what is going on in his Department. He is more concerned about the old age pension some pensioner has robbed in a nursing home than he is about looking at what is going on in his Department. I have a letter from him and his colleague at the time, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, stating they did not know what was going on with this contract but they trusted the officials to do a good job.

Over recent weeks and months we are hearing time and again that the advice of the Office of the Attorney General or of the Department was taken. We can no longer continue to hide behind advice that is not made public. It is simply not good enough. This morning, we talked to the Department of Transport regarding a marine accident investigation. I am told, with respect to the death of Caitríona Lucas, that some people were not interviewed as a result of that accident but, of course, we are not allowed to see the report and we will never know. The bottom line is that it is time to come out in the open. The public are able to take the information when it is given to them. The public are not afraid. I would ask that we stop hiding behind things, start looking at the pounds and leave the pennies to mind themselves.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I ask for a debate on road safety. As of yesterday, four more people died in the month of January than the previous January and, unfortunately, two more people died last night in a very sad crash. My condolences go to their families and all friends in County Mayo. That is six more people who died in this calendar year than the previous calendar year or 20 people as opposed to 14 people. One person is too many but 20 is certainly too many.

Yesterday, representatives of the Road Safety Authority appeared before the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, mainly about the national car test and delays in the provision of driving tests, but I also asked them about road safety figures. A staggering statistic given, which the chief executive said staggered him when he discovered it, was that 40% of driver fatalities were people who had not been wearing their seatbelts, which is surprising in this day and age. The statistic surprised me and the chief executive, who is a man who works on road safety all day, every day. A total of 40% of driver fatalities involved people who had not been wearing their seatbelts. It is so annoying to get into a car and not put on a seatbelt because the car will make a pinging noise and most cars have had that facility for a very long time. We need a renewed effort when it comes to road safety. One accident ruins families and a fatality more so. We need an emphasis on drivers, pedestrians, cyclists and everybody who uses roads to improve road safety and the road environment. We can never be complacent about road safety. The number of fatalities has greatly reduced and is much better than it used to be. We have more cars on our roads and more people in this country. We need a debate on road safety and what we can all do, as users of the road space, to help roads be safer for everybody's benefit.

Senator Regina Doherty

I thank colleagues for all of the topics they have raised this morning.

Senator Horkan is right. I will arrange and request a debate because it very much does feel, not just this year but in recent years, that we are going backwards from some of the huge successes we have had in the reduction of the number of fatalities over the years. We all know the good work the Road Safety Authority does, particularly in the promotion of road safety. It is very sad to see the number of people who have lost their lives increasing. I send my condolences to the families and friends of the two young men who lost their lives in County Mayo last night. I will ask the office to arrange the debate as quickly I can.

I am not sure what Senator Craughwell is asking of me other than what he has raised this morning certainly puts things in stark contrast in terms of priorities. I suggest that we seek a debate on the value for money aspect of the contract. We have had that before but we are obviously not done with it yet. I will arrange the debate.

I am sorry to say to Senators Craughwell and Boyhan that I cannot accept their amendment. I am instructed that I have to push on today. For the information of the House, No. 2 was debated on two separate occasions at the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight. I acknowledge the request made and apologise that I cannot accept the amendment.

Senator Dolan spoke about the appointment of biodiversity officers in local authorities. It is welcome to see that announcement. It is surprising it has not happened before, but it does shine a light on the individuals in all local authorities who are doing those biodiversity roles as leadership roles because we can cite many projects, as the Senator did, in all counties where local authorities are championing projects to make sure we are cognisant of the environment in which we live and, more importantly, sympathetic to it.

Senator McGreehan asked for a debate on the guidance that was announced this morning by the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, for inclusive engagement with communities. I will request the debate.

I thank Senator Flynn for her impassioned speech and acknowledgement that there are far more of us who will stand against racism in this country and who are willing to accept and welcome refugees who flee persecution of many kinds. That is notwithstanding that there are some legitimate concerns that have been raised that need to be addressed by this Government, particularly by our new Minister with responsibility for integration. The lack of communication with communities is a real problem. It allows fear to be stoked up by genuine people who, if they are addressed in a proper and timely manner, would have their fears completely addressed and assuaged.

Senator Currie spoke lovingly about her childminder, Bridget. I think we all have similar memories of aunties or family friends who minded us as kids. They have a special place in all of our hearts. It is very welcome that the Minister has included childminders in the State supports for families who very willingly use childminders.

The Senator also spoke about Michael Gallagher. Our minds are with all of the victims of the Omagh bombing. I wholeheartedly agree with her that an investigation must be done not just by the UK Government but also by the Irish Government to give people answers.

On Senator Gavan's issue, the last time he raised it I told him I was not fully briefed. I have read a bit more about it since and it is absolutely outrageous. Apart from the appalling treatment of the man and the impact on his family and on the people who support him, what is really outrageous is that the world society expects more from modern democracies. We expect them to act with decency and integrity. While we raise many issues about Russia and China, we probably have a view that those countries are not quite as democratic as we are. Therefore, it is not that the infringements from a human rights perspective are not as outrageous but that we do not expect them to act in the same way as we expect modern democracies to act. One of the most modern democracies we all know, and in many cases it is cited as being an example of best behaviour, is the United States. Certainly, the US has not acted in a gracious way in this instance. In fact, it has been appalling. What is appalling is that other modern democracies are going along with the - charade is not a strong enough word - what I assume are the wishes or the instructions that have been handed down. I do not believe my calling for Julian Assange's freedom here today is going to make any difference, but we should have a debate not just on him but on human rights abuses and on any other issues people may wish to raise.

Senator Paul Gavan

Well said.

Senator Regina Doherty

I will arrange the debate in the next couple of weeks and I hope we will do that.

Senator Murphy raised an issue that was raised at our parliamentary party meeting last night. Maybe the momentum has not grown because people are suffering from the cost-of-living crisis on top of their mortgage costs or maybe it is due to the fact that fixed-rate mortgages or interest rates generally in Ireland have not been impacted upon quite the same as other European countries, but by all means it will. One of my colleagues mentioned last night that they know someone whose mortgage has increased by more than €1,000. I do not know any family who could be expected to take such an increase on the chin and carry on, especially when the cost of everything else has increased. It is something we need to debate, but I will certainly ask the Leader to draft a letter to the Central Bank raising our concerns. What concerns me are the statements by the Governor of the Central Bank in recent weeks that there is nothing to see here and we should just carry on and expect it. I do not think we can expect people to suck it up when mortgage rates could probably increase by anything between 40% and 50% due to the increases from 2.6% or 2.8%, which is currently the average here, to anything between 4% and 5%, which would be catastrophic for some families. I thank the Senator for raising the matter.

Senator Boyhan spoke about mother and baby homes. The debate was quite difficult to listen to last night because the concerns that have been raised by individuals, their families and their supporters are very real. That is notwithstanding that the current offering goes beyond what the commission that conducted the investigation offered or proposed to offer. There are still some queries to be debated and we will do that in the House when it comes. I thank the Senator for raising the issue.

What Senator Seery Kearney raised is startling and it is not unique to Drimnagh, Dublin City Council or any other council. We have councils that receive enormous development levies in particular areas and those moneys are spent in other areas. Senator Keogan also knows this to be true. It is not good enough. The question of holding local authorities to account at the Committee of Public Accounts or at any other committee has been raised on numerous occasions and it is not viable, apparently. We therefore have local authorities that are not accountable to anybody other than their own board, which is the elected county councillors. Either they do not agree in such large numbers or, as we know, local areas only have a smaller number of councillors on local area committees than the wider council.

There is definitely something not right, and we definitely have areas where communities have had to take very large developments, maybe not as openly or willingly as they would have liked. They have to take them yet the spoils of those benefits go somewhere else, and it is not right. I will raise the matter with the Minister and maybe ask him to come here for a debate to see what we can do to hold the developers more accountable or if we can put directives into the rules relating to the Local Government Act to make sure there is an equality of distribution of rates once the council accepts them through the development.

I will ask for a full debate on the matter Senator Clonan raised. It is not scheduled for next week because we did not know whether we would have all the documents from the Department of Health next week, but it will certainly be scheduled for the week after. As for the disability payments, sometimes I think I cannot be shocked any more by some of the things we uncover, but I am so shocked that a memo that was not even brought to the Cabinet for approval could somehow have become policy in the Department of Social Protection. Having been in that Department for so many years, I am shocked to my core that we would have treated people in such a vulnerable situation in this way simply because we thought the State was paying for their keep in some other congregated setting. I do not know who in the Department leaked the documents or who the whistleblowers are, but they are certainly bringing to bear information that we, as a society, absolutely need to know, as well as recompense. I am very pleased that the Taoiseach yesterday said unequivocally that there needs to be redress in respect of the disability payments and that we need to find out exactly who these people are and make sure they are compensated. More importantly, however-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Thank God for whistleblowers

Senator Regina Doherty

Absolutely-----

Senator Paul Gavan

Absolutely.

Senator Regina Doherty

-----but then we go to the argument of how we treat them, not just on international standards but on our own Irish standards. We do not have to look too far to see how we malign them, and that needs to be addressed as well.

As for the other issue Senator Clonan raised, I will not stand up here and be duplicitous with him. I do not have enough information yet. What has been released so far would allow me to be absolutely outraged yet I am told there is other information to come, so I will reserve saying how I feel about the matter until I have all the information. On the whole, however, it certainly does not look like we treated people with respect on either element of-----

Senator Tom Clonan

I am conscious that not all the information is there so I was hoping that in due course we can-----

Senator Regina Doherty

We will definitely have the debate the week after next because I am-----

Senator Tom Clonan

I hope it is the case that there is not that co-ordinated attempt to target-----

An Cathaoirleach

As the Deputy Leader has indicated she will organise the debate, Senator Clonan, let her-----

Senator Regina Doherty

I will organise the debate-----

(Interruptions).

Senator Regina Doherty

-----but it is hard not to think what Senator Clonan says because somebody somewhere did not do this on his or her own. I found out yesterday that the disability memo did not even come to the Cabinet.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, Senator Clonan-----

Senator Tom Clonan

Then you hear this and you think, well, that is the reason why.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Senator. Notwithstanding the sensitivity of this, the Leader has the right to reply and you have made your contribution. We will have further debate. I appreciate where you are coming from.

Senator Regina Doherty

The Senator makes a very valid point, though-----

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that.

Senator Regina Doherty

Senator Ardagh spoke about supporting refugees but called for a review, as I think others have done, of the international protection process. Senator McDowell made a very valid point on RTÉ on Monday night. There are differences between some of the people who are presenting for international protection. There are different reasons, and we need to acknowledge that. That difference and those reasons feed into some of the fears people are expressing which we hear on the radio and on the television at the moment. We need to take an all-encompassing look at how we communicate with people, how we address the system and how we look at people who are genuinely in need of help and make sure we give them the most decent setting or environment to live in for as long as we can, until they either become Irish citizens or get to the end of their process. We need to look at the length of the process. I had a conversation with an ambassador who more or less pointed to the fact that Ireland is a soft touch in the way we act on this. Yet, although our system takes far too long because of the way our courts systems work, I think we allow people every single opportunity to make their cases. I think that is a good thing; I do not think it is a bad thing, and I do not think curtailing the process into six months or two years would do them justice. I definitely agree with the Senator, however, about looking for a review of the international process.

Senator Wall looked for the circular economy Bill to be debated, which I will request.

He also raised something that I do not think is unique to Kildare. I have a little 12-year-old lady in Swords who has no place to go to school this September, which is affecting her mental health. The Minister for Education will be in the Chamber on 15 February to discuss education and school places, so I do not even have to ask for that debate because it is coming. Also, the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, will be here on 22 February to discuss a lot of the items we have raised here this morning.

In response to Senator Black, the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, will be here on 22 February, but I thank her for her contribution because everything she has said is very true.

Senator Warfield spoke about the recommendations of the Youth Arts Now report, on which he sought a debate. I will ask the Minister to come in for that.

Senator Keogan raised the Ashtown incident and the camp for migrants. The incident over the weekend represented a low point in how we treat people in this country, so I am glad the Garda is taking appropriate action.

The Senator also spoke about the St. Patrick's Festival announcement. The thing that grabbed me most about the announcement, while it is lovely to see we are back to normal and everything is gung ho again, was the €250 ticket price for ordinary Irish people to sit on the side of the road. I do not know if we have completely lost the run of ourselves, but I wrote to the Minister yesterday to say I do not know what that is about. I told him that the tickets should be free and that admission should not be charged.

Senator O'Loughlin spoke about her pride for St. Brigid. She also raised a really important issue with the school books scheme. It is not acceptable that we think our schools will go to the book producers and cut out the middle men and all the shops that have looked after us for so many years, so we will raise that with the Minister too.

Senator Kyne opened the debate by speaking about the short-term letting Bill and looked for a debate on the pre-legislative scrutiny report once it comes to us. We will have that report here as soon as we can.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Boyhan has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 2 not be taken today." How stands the amendment?

Senator Victor Boyhan

I am pressing it. It is very reasonable.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 29.

Tá

• Black, Frances.
• Boyhan, Victor.
• Boylan, Lynn.
• Clonan, Tom.
• Craughwell, Gerard P.
• Flynn, Eileen.
• Gavan, Paul.
• Keogan, Sharon.
• Wall, Mark.

Níl

• Ahearn, Garret.
• Ardagh, Catherine.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Burke, Paddy.
• Casey, Pat.
• Cassells, Shane.
• Conway, Martin.
• Crowe, Ollie.
• Currie, Emer.
• Daly, Mark.
• Daly, Paul.
• Davitt, Aidan.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Dolan, Aisling.
• Fitzpatrick, Mary.
• Gallagher, Robbie.
• Garvey, Róisín.
• Horkan, Gerry.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lombard, Tim.
• Martin, Vincent P.
• McGreehan, Erin.
• Murphy, Eugene.
• O'Loughlin, Fiona.
• O'Reilly, Joe.
• O'Reilly, Pauline.
• Seery Kearney, Mary.
• Ward, Barry.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Victor Boyhan and Gerard P. Craughwell; Níl, Senators Robbie Gallagher and Joe O'Reilly.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.