SELECT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 11 Sep 2002

Vol. 1 No. 2

Business of Select Committee.

Chairman

I am in possession now and the Deputy can respond later if she wishes. In relation to the conduct of the meeting, I conduct meetings in an impartial and fair manner in accordance with the prerogatives of the chairmen of committees and I have done that in this case. People have said to me that it is not stated in Standing Orders that we have the right to invite commissioners or to do this, that or the other. I will not take that type of dressing down from the Deputy publicly or ever again in this type of situation. She owes me an apology for what she said at the start of this meeting.

In relation to the procedure, I asked the Clerk to contact members' offices and tell them that I wanted this matter put on the agenda. If the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs was in session, I might not have put this matter on the agenda, although there is an overlap because the European Council has been and will be considering this matter. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is not in session and this matter is of concern.

Members approach the Clerk or me, as Chairman, from time to time and ask if they can put an issue on the agenda. If I think it falls within the terms of reference and is reasonable, I follow the same approach. I would put it on the agenda and inform members of it. The alternative is to state that we will put it on the agenda in two weeks' time and deal with it two weeks after that, a month from now, by which time a person such as this young woman could be dead.

The Deputy's outburst, and I have to describe as that, is not acceptable and will not be accepted by me at any time while I am chairing this meeting. I want to make that clear to every member. I will try to be fair and as businesslike as I can. We are trying to get this committee up and running without the necessary staff. The staff are coming onstream in dribs and drabs, which is something we need to address under the heading of "any other business", and the Clerk to the Committee is doing his best. We will try to get matters running more smoothly to ensure that members are given briefs and so on.

It was appropriate to have the ambassador here today and to pass on our strong views to him to ensure he communicated them to his government. The alternative was to do nothing about this matter and to wait until Foreign Affairs questions are taken in the Dáil in October. That would not serve the interests of the lady concerned or public opinion. It was perfectly right and proper to have the ambassador here today. If anyone had an objection to the ambassador coming here today, the time to raise that was when the offices were contacted.

Ms Sexton

First and foremost, Chairman, I have gained enough control of my faculties to make myself crystal clear. I assure the Chairman that he may not have liked my outburst, but he will certainly not get an apology for it. That is for starters and I say that with all due respect to the Deputy's position in the Chair.

I am a new member of this committee and this Dáil. When I was elected I decided that I would sit back, take note of what was going on and try not to interfere except to make a contribution when I saw fit. I thank the person who prepared this brief which I read before I came here. However, I did not know the format this meeting would take. I do not think it is right or proper to give a platform to the ambassador, which I admit the Chairman did not, but I was not any happier when the ambassador left than I was at the start of the meeting. A person like him should not be given a platform to use this meeting as he sees fit in his country, having been invited to this meeting. Had he requested a meeting with this committee, I would apologise to the Chairman, but I gather that was not the case. He was invited here. I would have liked to have been consulted and told what format the meeting would take, what the ambassador's invitation to the meeting was about or what we would discussing or asking him to discuss.

This was a very one-sided affair. This young woman who has been sentenced to death did not have a representative from any of the human rights groups in that country to explain the situation as it was. All we had was a one-sided version from a man who does not accept that there are any human rights abuses in his country.

I am sorry if my outburst offended the Chairman, but he certainly will not get an apology for what I said. It is outrageous that someone like the ambassador would be invited here without all of us being consulted, which I was not. I am sorry, Chairman, though I agree that you have the right to put anything on the agenda that you see fit. However, as a matter of courtesy, one should be contacted to discuss the agenda.

Chairman

I am informed by the Clerk that offices were contacted. That is the procedure and I asked that it be followed.

Ms Sexton

Perhaps after this meeting the Clerk can tell me when exactly——

Mr. Mulcahy

The summer has intervened for many of us. I could not say whether or not the Clerk contacted my office, but if he says he did I certainly believe him. There were so many telephone calls on my answering machine when I got back from holiday that there was no room for any more. One thing that concerns me is that when we are dealing with ambassadors we are dealing with representatives of foreign sovereign states. I am concerned that we, and they, know precisely what the topic is and how the discussion will be structured. I would not like to feel that an ambassador was compromised or felt caught short, though I do not say that was the case here.

I have no objection to you, Chairman, setting the agenda but, if time allows, it might be an idea for you to get together with the Government and Opposition Whips in advance of a meeting to discuss the agenda and to reach a consensus. I have no particular complaint. The committee is finding its feet and we will get there eventually.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It would be unfortunate if this incident was the basis on which relationships within the committee were soured. We have a heavy job to do and we are the first committee established by the new Government which highlights the importance of the work to be done by us in a European and international context. I confirm that I received a message from the secretariat and I thought it was a good idea to bring in the ambassador because I have strong views which I wanted to express. I felt that this was the best place to express them regarding this awful sentence.

Nigeria is feeling its way back to democracy after 25 years of military rule and such countries take notice of what is said in other parliaments. That is the essence of the democratic system and it was useful that this Parliament took the time and had sufficient interest to express its views - views which were expressed strongly and unanimously around the table. I hope they will be conveyed to the Government in Lagos.

From the point of view of procedure for the future there is, perhaps, a case for discussing how we might best conduct our business. I suggest that be done discreetly and without rancour. Let us pass on and refuse to allow what happened during the holiday period and the initial setting up of the committee to establish any feelings of rancour. We are all anxious to do a decent job. We have been entrusted to do so by Parliament and we can do it better by working together.

Mr. Kirk

I confirm that I was contacted by the secretariat and agreed with the invitation to the ambassador. We have to remember that Nigeria has an embassy here with an ambassador and staff, that we are operating a democracy and when there are serious or threatened breaches of human rights committees of this House should avail of every opportunity to invite ambassadors in and make the agenda quite clear to them. We should speak to them in stern terms about serious breaches contemplated or carried out in their jurisdictions and I hope today's exercise will leave the Nigerian ambassador in no doubt as to where the Oireachtas Select Committee on European Affairs stands on this issues. I hope he will take the initiative and convey what has been pretty stern and straight talking to the Government in Lagos.

Mr. Haughey

I told Deputy Sexton privately and should say publicly now that I did not get a message about the visit of the ambassador. It might have been left with my office but it certainly was not communicated to me.

Chairman

We have a list of who was contacted according to which some people were called on their mobile phones, others' mobiles were off, others were contacted by voicemail and three Deputies were not available. I assume that means their secretaries were spoken to. An effort was made at my request to ring around and tell people.

Whatever about the way the Chair has been treated, what is most important is that a young woman with a child is sentenced to die in a most horrible way. From my time as Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs I can say that the ambassador will go back to his office and communicate to his Foreign Minister that he was called in here and the strength of opinion he encountered. I do not see any opportunity for them to use this as a public relations exercise. If his Minister gets this from sufficient numbers of parliaments around the world it may well have the effect of saving this woman and preventing this from becoming a precedent.

I thank you all for your contributions.

The Select Committee went into privatesession at 3.20 p.m. and adjourned at 4.00 p.m. until Wednesday, 25 September 2002.