Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 2022

Vol. 1028 No. 6

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Schools Amalgamation

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister, Deputy Foley, for coming to the Chamber to take this Topical Issue matter. It should be noted that all four Deputies from Cork North-Central are in agreement on this. We have consulted parents, corresponded with students and discussed it among ourselves and the wider school community over recent weeks and months. To say communication has been poor is an understatement. It is misleading to say a consultation process, or an adequate one at least, has been undertaken. The decision to amalgamate St. Vincent's Secondary School and North Presentation Secondary School is being foisted upon people late in the day, denying students enrolment options elsewhere and evicting students of the four autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes in the Lir hub in St. Vincent's Secondary School from a building where they are immersed in a whole-school experience, potentially moving them to a prefabricated building in a car park.

We are calling on the Minister to engage with the trustees and patrons of both schools to ensure students' right to achieve their full personal, social and academic potential is achieved by consensus. We call on her to use her office to get the trustees to review their decision and, at the very least, re-engage with the school community and pause the current plans for amalgamation.

Deputy Colm Burke

My colleague, Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, has set out the matter clearly. It appears there has been very poor communication with the parents of the pupils of St. Vincent's Secondary School, particularly the parents of children with additional needs. There is a very good educational structure in place in the school for 24 pupils with special needs. It takes a bit of time for children with such needs to settle into a school and now they are being asked to move on 1 September next year. This requires further consultation and the whole amalgamation process should be paused. I wrote to the Religious Sisters of Charity last Monday and got a response today advising that the trustees intend to engage with the school's board of management and the teachers by the end of this week. This is a welcome development.

Deputy Mick Barry

I add my voice to the calls to pause this process. Major decisions should not be made without the consent of school communities, including parents, teachers and students. Not only is there no consent in this case, there is, in fact, strong and active opposition, as was seen with the march of more than 300 people from the school yard of St. Vincent's Secondary School to Cork city centre last Saturday.

To be clear, I am a supporter of mixed education. I believe that for school to be a proper preparation for life, it should be in a mixed setting. I am also opposed to church control of education and this is as clear an example as one could wish to find of how church control and democracy are in opposition to each other. It is clear to me that opposition to this proposal is only going to grow. The Minister must, at the very least, pause the process and think again.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I ask the Minister to reverse the decision to close St. Vincent's Secondary School, which is a publicly funded school for girls. The buck stops with her. This proposal is having a very negative and upsetting effect on many students. For the students in the wonderful Lir ASD unit, it is an extremely difficult time and they are being hugely affected. It is having a fierce effect on the pupils who will sit their leaving certificate examination next year and, in particular, the following year.

The announcement came out of the blue. Parents attended open evenings and enrolments and were never told anything about it. Not only is this process flawed, it is happening entirely behind closed doors and it is happening way too fast. The trustees, the Religious Sisters of Charity, have refused to listen to parents, teachers and especially students. The students love the school, feel supported and want to stay there. The Minister must step in and tell them this amalgamation is not going to happen.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter as it gives me the opportunity to outline for the House the position with regard to the amalgamation of St Vincent's Secondary School and North Presentation Secondary School in Cork. St. Vincent's Secondary School is a post-primary school for girls under the patronage of the Religious Sisters of Charity. It had 215 students in the 2021-2022 school year. North Presentation Secondary School is also a post-primary school for girls and is under the patronage of CEIST. It had an enrolment of 138 students in the 2021-2022 school year.

The Department has received correspondence from the patrons of both schools regarding their proposed amalgamation and a change of status of the new amalgamated school to co-educational. The decision-making authorities for any amalgamation or change of status are the patrons of the schools. Where a school is considering an amalgamation, it should consult with students, parents, staff and broader communities. It is the responsibility of the patrons to undertake this consultation and make the final decision on whether to amalgamate.

Information provided to the Department of Education by the patrons indicated that a thorough local consultation process was undertaken between March 2021 and February 2022 between the school community of Catholic post-primary schools in north Cork city. This was indicated to have involved formal meetings with boards of management, staff, students, parents and guardians as well as parents and guardians of students attending Catholic primary schools in the area. However I am conscious that concerns have recently been raised by some members of the school community and that these have been brought to the patrons' attention. The Department has been informed that there were ongoing discussions between the two school patrons who will in fact be meeting again with their respective schools on Thursday in regard to the matters raised.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Have I 30 seconds?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will give the Deputy a little leeway.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister for her response. There are a couple of points to pick up on. Later in the Minister's response she said that it was indicated to have involved formal meetings with the board of management, staff, students, students, parents and guardians as well as parents and guardians of students attending Catholic primary schools in the area. To clarify, from what we are being told by parents there was one Zoom meeting that involved parents. I am not sure that process was followed as is outlined in the report on amalgamation of secondary schools which was commissioned in 2001. I have two questions. Did the process undertaken abide by best practice? More important, can the Minister give a commitment that the independent report compiled by Mr. Frank Smith will be published even if it is in a redacted form? Can the parents of the school community have sight of that report?

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the Minister for her reply. When an amalgamation is going ahead it is about whether the Department makes sure that all the boxes are ticked especially in respect of consultation. I am concerned that there does not seem to be a process within the Department making sure that all the boxes are ticked particularly in regard to consultation. As I said at the start I received a letter from the Sisters of Charity this morning confirming that they are going to meet with the board of management and with the teachers this week. That should be extended to a representative group of parents because they are the people who have been left in the dark.

Deputy Mick Barry

The Minister should not underestimate the strength of feeling on the ground. Parents and teachers have the right to vote. Many students will have the right to vote in the next elections too. There is also the right to protest. Parents, teachers and students alike will use it if the necessary steps are not now taken. The ball is in the Minister's and the Government's court. The people will be watching carefully for what is done next.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Did the Minister sign off on this? This process was flawed. She is the Minister for Education. The Department of Education gave her this to sign off and I believe that was completely wrong. At the end of the day she has a responsibility as Minister to ensure that this was done properly. It was not done properly. I spoke to the parents, teachers and particularly the students. Have the patrons excluded all of them from the process? If the patrons want out of the school let us get new patrons. This campaign is only beginning. The north side is sick of losing schools, hospitals and everything else and the people will stand up and fight this.

Deputy Norma Foley

Again I thank the Deputies for giving me an opportunity to reply to the House. Regarding the current position on the amalgamation of St. Vincent's Secondary School and North Presentation Secondary School, Cork, I note the unanimity among the Deputies. I have to point out, and I am being absolutely truthful saying this, the decision-making authority for any amalgamation or change of status is the patron of the school in question. I am conscious that very recently specific concerns have been raised by the school communities. It is hugely important, and nobody knows that better than myself, that everybody within the school communities had an opportunity to express their thoughts, views and opinions on any process. My Department has engaged with representatives of the patrons. They too are fully aware of the concerns that have been raised by the wider community. As I outlined earlier it is now my understanding, following the engagement of the Department with the patrons that the patrons of the two schools are having continued discussions and are conscious and aware of the issues that have been raised by the school community-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

Does that mean it will be paused? Will it be stopped? I am asking a straight question.

Deputy Norma Foley

Following the engagement we have had with the representatives of the schools' patrons it is now my understanding that the two schools are having continued discussions and will be meeting again on Thursday this week with their representative schools. That is positive. It is important that we take the opportunity to hear the concerns that have been raised. It is important that the patrons in this instance have agreed to that meeting and to the opportunity to meet with the respective schools-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

Will parents be invited? They are closing the school and the students and parents have no input.

Deputy Norma Foley

I must have the opportunity to answer. It is important and I have heard the voices that are being expressed in this Chamber and in the community. As a Department we have made contact with representatives of the patrons of the schools. They have committed to meeting on Thursday with the representative schools. That is just two days away. I look forward to the outcome of that discussion on Thursday.

Sports Facilities

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as a bheith anseo. Is ceist an-tábhachtach í seo do lár na cathrach. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé ag fiafraí "Cén fáth mise?" agus "Cén fáth an cheist seo?" The Liberties of Dublin on the south side of the Liffey has been the focus of many building developments over the years, some welcome, some not. Not all address the needs of the community, in particular the housing needs of that community. The reason I raise this matter is that the community has a crying need for Government action and investment along with Dublin City Council to ensure there are spaces for sports and the community, especially a community that is growing as this is at the moment. There is no grass or all-weather pitch in this deprived and disadvantaged area. It is a need that has been identified especially considering the closure of the two grass pitches which were in St. Teresa’s Gardens but were closed 15 years ago with a promise that they would be reinstated. That is now stuck in a court in the European Union. That might happen at some stage in the future. Also two of the community halls in the area have been closed. One has been in long-term use as a homeless centre and the other had a fire last year. There was a promise that the earliest possible that the city council would reopen that would be in 2024. That exacerbated a problem already in existence for the 6,500 children under the age of 12 who live locally in this area and the sports clubs that are in the area but must travel outside to take part in competitive sports. This affects a number of soccer teams, Gaelic teams, rugby teams and other sports. The area has the lowest percentage of green space in the city at 6.5%. This is the lowest green space per child and much of what counts for that green space is in fact unusable. It includes grass verges of the Luas track. There was a promise, as I said, that one of the two pitches, or at least a pitch would replace the Boys' Brigade pitches that were in St. Teresa's Gardens. There is no sight of that.

There is a site and thankfully the city councillors have ensured despite the city management that this site is still available. It is in public hands and can be utilised. It is next to an existing sports centre owned by the council. It is zoned so that it could become the hub for those sports. It could become the centre for those multipurpose all-weather pitches where children and adults can play outdoors on this pitch nearly morning, noon and night. The site is on Marrowbone Lane. The Minister of State is probably aware of the centre there. It is a site that has been looked at by the 30 sports groups that have come together under the auspices of Sporting Liberties.

The Minister of State knows that well. He was in Cherry Orchard today announcing funding from the Dormant Accounts Fund. Sports can divert people away from crime and drugs and help them to keep fit and healthy and to make friends. In this area of the Liberties, we cannot keep losing generation after generation to drugs and the chaos that is around them.

I am appealing to the Minister of State to intercede with Dublin City Council to ensure that funding and the direction are given to ensure this project can happen quickly.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Jack Chambers)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I recently had the pleasure of meeting with representatives from Kevins GAA club, Liberty Saints rugby club and other members of Sporting Liberties, along with my colleague, Senator Ardagh, and other local representatives during a recent visit to Dublin South-Central constituency. I acknowledge the Deputy’s interest today and historically on this issue. I was briefed then on the situation in the area regarding the serious shortage of pitches and green spaces to serve the local community. It was clear from the presentations made by the clubs that they and their volunteers are doing phenomenal work to get young people in the Dublin 8 area involved sport and physical activity. However, their efforts to grow and get more people active and involved in sport are seriously hampered by a lack of access to pitches and spaces to play. Working with all local representatives, I am happy to do all I can to help everybody with this issue.

However, it still should be stated that the possible development of any multisport all-weather pitch at Marrowbone Lane is primarily a matter for Dublin City Council in the first instance. I understand work is ongoing between the council and local representatives to try to address this, as the Deputy referenced.

On improving our sports infrastructure generally, the Government accepts that if we are to get as many people participating in sport as possible, we need to provide proper facilities. In this regard, my Department has two schemes that provide capital assistance for the redevelopment and improvement of sports facilities, including multisport all-weather pitches. The large scale sport infrastructure fund is designed for projects where the grant sought is greater than the maximum available under the sports capital and equipment programme. The first allocations of approximately €86 million to 33 proposals were made in 2020. In relation to projects such as the provision of all-weather pitches, the sports capital equipment programme is a vehicle for Government support for the development of local sports and recreational facilities and the purchase of equipment throughout the country. More than 13,000 projects have benefited to the tune of more than €1 billion. As well as providing grants to sports clubs and governing bodies, the scheme also accepts applications from local authorities. As a Government, we are committed in the programme for Government to continuing this programme of prioritising investment across communities, but particularly in disadvantaged areas. The latest round of applications closed in March 2021 and we received a record of more than 3,000 applications. We announced allocations of more than €160 million, which represented the highest-ever level of allocation made under the sports capital and equipment programme.

As the Deputy will be aware, every valid application in Dublin received a grant offer. In fact, the total funding of projects in Dublin amounted to almost €25.5 million, which demonstrates the level of investment in Dublin. Furthermore, Dublin City Council received a total of more than €1 million towards 14 different projects under this latest round.

On future possible investment, following completion of the full allocation and appeals process, we commenced a full review of all aspects of the previous round. Drafting of this review is at an advanced stage and any recommendations arising will be reflected in the terms and conditions of the next round. Following the completion of the review, I will announce the exact timing of the next round, but it is hoped to have it open for applications early in the new year. Of course, Dublin City Council will again be invited to submit applications under the new round, including any proposal it may have for facilities at Marrowbone Lane.

Before I conclude, Dublin City Council needs to move to address the deficit of facilities in the Dublin 8 and Liberties area that the Deputy referenced. There is an absolute deficit there that requires investment and support. As a Government, we are committed to shaping our investment around where there is a lack of a facilities, particularly in disadvantaged areas. However, obviously, the land allocation is a necessity from local authorities. I would encourage Dublin City Council, with the local councillors and all representatives, to ensure that an application is made in the next round. Such an application will benefit from the structure of the scheme that we have. I agree with the Deputy that the Dublin 8 area needs that investment and that facility and it has waited too long for it.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I acknowledge the positive message the Minister of State has sent to Dublin City Council. Councillors and Senators from all parties and I will be encouraging Dublin City Council to make that application. I know the community and Sporting Liberties will as well, and I must commend the 31 or 32 sports clubs that make it up. It is vital that their message gets across to Dublin City Council and that is why I brought it here. The message has already been brought to the council meeting through the development plan. This is the most urbanised area in the city. It needs some areas where people, children in particular, but the community as a whole can play.

Dublin City Council has, in recent times, provided two pocket parks but that is not enough for the scale of the development that has already happened and is continuing to happen in the area. Underutilised areas and dereliction are being addressed but that land is in private hands. The Minister of State made the point that Dublin City Council has land and this is one of the pockets of land that is right in the heart of the community and where these sports clubs recruit their members. They have been very successful. We see the spirit of those young people as they play, despite all of the difficulties and extra cost of having to travel to make sure that they can train in some facility – sometimes in the school hall, sometimes in other community halls or sometimes it is outside the area and they have to travel by bus or car or whatever. As the Minister of State rightly said, Dublin City Council has a responsibility not just for housing and those in the area; it has a responsibility to provide usable green space that can be played on. I thank the Minister of State for his positive support.

Deputy Jack Chambers

Deputy Ó Snodaigh is correct that at the moment, many people in the Liberties are being displaced into other areas and facilities across the city because they have none within their core area where they live and where their children go to school. I met some representatives from the local schools as well, who also need to see the development of proper facilities.

As a Government, we are there and ready. We were ready in the previous round if an application had been received in Dublin City Council, but it was not, and we will be ready in the next round. Any application for such a municipal multi-use facility partnering between education and sport is exactly the type of application that does very well within the sports capital and equipment programme. However, we need to see and ensure that there is follow-through from the council.

As the Deputy said, there is a responsibility from a community development perspective, when one looks at the deficit that is there. There are brilliant volunteers in the community there and people who are committed to long-term development for young people. It is incumbent that we partner with them as public representatives and they are given the opportunity to see long-term facilities right at the heart of their community. It is the least they could ask for.

That is why there will be another sports capital round. We have to finalise the timing around it. I would like to see Dublin City Council move and formalise a potential site and submit an application there. The needs are clear. I acknowledge the Deputy’s strong representations on this, as well with other representatives. I also want to acknowledge the Deputy’s recent meeting with the High Five Boxing Academy here in Leinster House, which is another group in his constituency doing fantastic work, again, providing opportunities in sport, particularly in the area of inclusion for young people. It is groups such as that that we need to support, but also provide facilities for all of the other groups that are within the Sporting Liberties group. Let us hope that an application will be made by Dublin City Council and there is an opportunity in the coming months for it to do that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Minister of State dealing with the next matter? He is not. We will move on shortly to the third Topical Issue matter and next Minister. However, we have no Minister at present.

I apologise to the Deputy. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will look at this matter favourably for Wednesday or Thursday. That is all we can do at this point as we have waited for five minutes. At this point I will adjourn proceedings.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.14 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 9 Samhain 2022.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.14 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 9 November 2022.