Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 2022

Vol. 1029 No. 5

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy David Cullinane

More than two years ago, 18 distraught families learned that their children's organs had been sent to Belgium for incineration without their knowledge or consent. The South/Southwest Hospital Group was to complete and publish a report on the incidents at Cork University Maternity Hospital with the involvement of the affected families. In September 2020, the Minister for Health encouraged families to participate in the review. He stated, "the hospital group has committed to completing it by early November." It was not even commenced until April of the following year and promised again for November last year. It is now November 2022 and there is still no final report. A commitment was given that the families would get a draft copy of the report by the end of September at the latest. This morning, however, we learned that these families have been locked out of the process and that they will not get a first look at the report. That is shameful.

Sparked by that incident, an audit of organ retention and disposal practices was commissioned by the HSE. That report examined multiple hospitals and was completed far in advance of the report into Cork University Maternity Hospital. It found that similar unethical practices were taking place in Limerick, Drogheda, Galway, Tullamore, Portiuncula and Crumlin. Worst of all, it found that a single consultant named by "RTÉ Investigates" earlier this year, but known as Consultant A, was responsible for a significant amount of this malpractice. This is made worse by the fact that Consultant A had previously been removed from his duties at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin in 2007. At some point, the HSE recommissioned Consultant A's services.

In the 13 years since the publication of the report to which I refer in 2009, successive Governments have promised to legislate and have failed to do so. The devastating consequences of this failure for parents and families should be obvious to us all. Last July, in response to Teachta McDonald in this House, the Taoiseach made three commitments to the families affected by these failures. The first was that the bereaved families affected by the scandal at Cork University Maternity Hospital would be given access to the report without further delay. That has not happened. The second was that the HSE audit would be published. The audit was delayed by six months and had to be forced out of the system by means of a freedom of information request. The third was that the Government would publish the human tissue Bill this autumn. That has not happened either.

I have three clear questions for the Tánaiste. Will he compel the HSE to give the families access to the report this week? They have been calling for this for years. They have been promised it time and again. We cannot continue to fail them. Who is responsible for the governance failures leading to Consultant A being rehired? Who was responsible for auditing his practice and what accountability will there be for the failure in that regard? Will the Government finally publish the human tissue Bill this month, without delay, in order to prevent incidents such as those to which I refer from happening again?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising this very sensitive matter and for his ongoing interest in it on behalf of the 18 families affected. The matter has been discussed in the House previously. Once again, I express my deep sympathy to the families in Cork who have experienced the tragedy of losing a child and who then had the devastating experience of learning that their children's organs were disposed of without their consent. That was wrong. It is hard to fathom the hurt this incident must have caused to the families affected. It is an extremely distressing situation that should not have occurred and that has only added to their distress and grief.

While it is not appropriate for me to comment on individual cases, I recognise the families affected for sharing their deeply personal stories in order that other families do not have to go through what they experienced. The Department of Health is advised that the HSE, the South/Southwest Hospital Group, Cork University Hospital and Cork University Maternity Hospital have apologised to the families concerned and very much regret the incident. The Minister for Health, his Department and the HSE are committed to ensuring that there is learning across the health service to prevent a recurrence. The HSE advises that the systems analysis review being undertaken by the hospital group has concluded and that the final report is being prepared. We will respond to any recommendations. The HSE advises that the report is being finalised and will be shared with the families in the coming weeks. I am not sure if we have powers of compellability in that regard, but we are assured by the HSE that the report will be shared with the families within the next few weeks. I understand that the delay in the completion of this review has been very upsetting, but it is essential that correct processes are followed in order to ensure the facts of the case can be established and shared with the families affected.

Dignity and respect for parents who have experienced the loss of a child are of paramount importance. In that context, the human tissue Bill is on the priority list of legislation for the Government. Among other matters, the Bill will introduce a regulatory regime for the conduct of post mortems in hospital settings. Given recent events, the general scheme of the Bill has had to be amended to encompass certain aspects of coronial post mortem activities. The draft Bill is being finalised and it is intended that it will be brought to Government for approval at the end of this month.

Deputy David Cullinane

The delays on the part of the Government and the HSE over the past two years in respect of this matter have caused major hurt and distress to the families involved. What is happening is simply not good enough. I have met some of the families involved and am aware that they believe they are being stonewalled. The Tánaiste says they will get sight of the report in a couple of weeks' time, but similar promises were made in the past. The families were promised that they would get sight of the draft report. That is being reneged upon. If the Tánaiste says that the families will get sight of the final report in a few weeks' time, that needs to happen.

Thirteen years on from the 2009 review, Britain and other countries have put in legislation similar to the proposed human tissue Bill for which we are still waiting. There can be no excuse for that delay. We have had previous commitments in this regard. Only a few months ago in this House, the Taoiseach said that the legislation would be forthcoming in the autumn. The Tánaiste is now saying it will be by the end of the year. That needs to happen, and the promises made today in this Chamber by the Taoiseach need to be followed through on.

The Tánaiste

The delays with this inquiry and many other inquiries are impossible to defend. I can only imagine the frustration people experience when these inquiries, which you think will last six months, go on for more than six months and last a year or two years. That is very hard to defend. When we challenge the people carrying out the inquiries as to why this is the case, they often say that the matters involved were more complicated than they thought in the first instance and that things came up that they had to look into. That is very difficult to defend from any point of view.

I understand that the draft report will also be the final report. Essentially, they are the same. However, I could be wrong about that. I am told that the report will be shared with the families in the next few weeks. I appreciate that they will not believe that until it happens, particularly in view of their previous experience.

Once again, I am informed that the human tissue Bill will be before the Cabinet by the end of November. It is long overdue. The proposal for this legislation may even go date as far as the Madden commission under the former Minister for Health, Mary Harney. It is that long ago. The legislation is well overdue, and we need to get it done.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

On Tuesday and yesterday, I raised with the Taoiseach the issue of the Spiritans and the horrific abuse of children perpetrated at Blackrock College. At that one school alone, we are now learning of the horrific scale of the abuse that was perpetrated. It was revealed yesterday that 25 of the 120 boys in the class of 1979 have reported abuse. That is a staggering 21%. We know that 300 individuals have come forward disclosing abuse perpetrated upon them, and yet just three of the 77 Spiritans with allegations against them have criminal convictions. The scale of this is staggering.

Deputy Ó Ríordáin, others from the Labour Party and I have been in contact with many of the survivors who have come forward. I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment, in response to my question on Tuesday, that we will have a debate on this matter in the House next week. This is welcome. I also welcome the apology from the Spiritans announced yesterday morning, as well as the announcement that the order will establish an independent process to provide a forum for survivors of abuse to come forward. I salute, as we all do, the bravery of those individuals who have already come forward and made public disclosures. Their courage in doing so has enabled others to step forward too.

We believe, however, that we still need to see an independent inquiry take place, not only to uncover the extent of the abuse perpetrated not just by the Spiritans within one school, but, as it now seems, by other orders in other schools that have not yet been the subject of an inquiry and that have not yet, necessarily, come into the public domain. We have seen other schools named today. We also know that such an inquiry must be survivor-led. It must seek to review the extent of the abuse and, crucially, the existence of institutional cover-ups in individual schools and by particular orders. It should also seek to examine the role of the State and, in particular, its failures and what it could and should have done to prevent abuse in schools where the teachers were paid by the State and the schools were receiving significant public funding.

We are all very conscious of the complexity of establishing such an inquiry. It may, for example, need to be done in a modular fashion. Clearly, we need to hear more from survivors. I welcomed the Taoiseach's indication that he would meet with survivors. We must also consider current concerns. I spoke yesterday about current issues and a person against whom serious allegations of abuse have been made and who continues to live on the grounds of Blackrock College. I am not going to name the individual. The matter is with the Garda, as it should be. The reality is that this is not just an historical issue. Not only are perpetrators still living who have evaded any sort of sanctions to date, but there are those currently in leadership roles in particular schools who have been in those posts for so long, many decades in some cases, that it is very difficult to believe they did not have knowledge of the abuse that was being perpetrated there. In advance of next week's debate, therefore, what preliminary thoughts does the Tánaiste and his Government have on how this matter can be investigated by the State?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy again for raising this important issue. On Monday, I had a chance to listen to the radio documentary. It was very compelling. I pay tribute to the bravery of all those who participated in it. If people do not tell their stories, then it is very hard for us to take actions against people who carry out abuse and prevent it from happening in future. I recognise their bravery in coming forward and participating in that documentary.

This is a matter that the Government is very concerned about. The cruelty and pervasive nature of the allegations is truly shocking. In the first instance, my thoughts are with the survivors who have bravely told us their stories. Parents must be able to send their children to school in the knowledge that they are not only receiving the best education they can but that they are also in a safe environment. This is true for the vast majority of schools in our State. I understand that a restorative justice process has now been put in place by the Spiritans, which is very welcome. A debate on these issues is scheduled for next week.

As the Taoiseach said earlier, the Government is going to give this matter further consideration, particularly regarding the most effective way to have a victim-led inquiry to allow us to unearth what happened at Blackrock College and other Spiritan schools, specifically who knew what and how they acted, if at all. We just do not know yet the best form of inquiry or what form of inquiry should take place. We are very conscious of the length of time that some inquiries take. We wish to ensure this is undertaken in the right way. This is extremely important for the survivors.

I again encourage anyone who has been the victim of sexual abuse, in school or elsewhere, to contact the Garda. The Garda has extensive powers of investigation. It can carry out arrests, interview people and seize documents and devices. This can lead to prosecutions and perpetrators being punished. In many ways, this is much more powerful than many other forms of inquiry.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Tánaiste for his response. I endorse his comments and his encouragement of anyone who has been the victim of sexual abuse, in school or elsewhere, to report that matter to the Garda. I would also be glad to engage constructively with the Tánaiste and the Government on the structure of an inquiry. Survivors have contacted me to express their view that an inquiry and a process should engage, in particular, in ensuring that safeguards will be put in place to ensure that abuse like this will not happen in the future, cultural changes that will have to be made in different institutions, radical changes in systems of governance and, crucially, supports for survivors and victims. I look forward to a further debate on that.

I stress again that this is not just an historical issue. People are still currently in leadership roles, in particular in Blackrock College, who have had continuous ongoing involvement with that college for 40 years. I am well aware that one individual, currently in a key leadership role, was told of specific abuse allegations in 2002 and has in the past decade been approached by other survivors who have been told by him to go away and not return unless they have proof and a solicitor with them. These are current issues and not just historical ones, and survivors do want to see them addressed by us as legislators and by the State.

The Tánaiste

It is fair to say there is broad consensus across the House that we do need an inquiry into these matters and that it should be victim-led and survivor-led. As we all know from our own experience of inquiries that have been initiated by the Government or this House, getting the form of the inquiry right is very important, as is getting the terms of reference right. Inquiries can range from non-statutory ones, such as that which led to the Scally report, which I think people would see as a good model, albeit in very different circumstances, to statutory inquiries, which can also be a very good model but that can take a long time. One thing we must bear in mind is that we do not want to do anything that might compromise any Garda inquiries or any prosecutions. It is possible to have an inquiry without doing this, but we need to have regard to the possibility that it might interfere with Garda inquiries, prosecutions or civil cases. We must ensure we do not make any mistakes in this regard.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am extremely concerned about the new proposed residential-zoned land tax. I am in favour of a vacant site tax that encourages developers or those sitting on residentially-zoned land to engage in the process of development. I have reviewed the guidance from the Revenue on the tax in the last week and, in short, I was shocked. This tax is now a revenue-raising measure, as opposed to a tax that is designed to encourage stakeholders to develop land.

We have had a plethora of reports in recent months indicating that viability is now the key issue in housing. Commencements of developments continue to fall as a result of unviable permissions. Development plans have been adopted outside of Dublin and they continue to force developers to apply for permissions that are not viable. The planning regulator has advised the Minister on a number of locations to rezone lands to high density, rendering them unviable. The Tánaiste's Minister has adopted these changes knowing the effect will be to render the zoned lands undevelopable. If the Tánaiste does not believe me, then he might check with his own councillor, Anthony Barry from Carrigtwohill.

Willing developers trying their best to develop lands are being delayed for years by the dead hand of Government. What I mean by this is the dysfunctional planning departments in many county councils that are understaffed, the basket case that is An Bord Pleanála and the crazy zoning and house calculation targets set by the planning regulator. The planning process can take up to five years from the date of zoning and this is assuming the lands are serviced. It now can take up to eight months to get a preplanning meeting in County Wexford and I am sure it is the same with other local authorities. It takes a year to design a scheme, a year to get a decision, a further year, and possibly more, to get it approved by the board, if it was functioning, and another year to get a project through judicial reviews. During this entire process, the Government will have collected five years of land tax before development can be commenced.

Any tax such as this should provide reliefs for all of the above circumstances. The Government's tax does not. There should be a viability relief provision in the tax. The Exchequer already takes 52% of the cost of every new house. The Government is now proposing to possibly add up to 15% more to this figure by way of applying this new residential development land tax. The Government has also brought in a pyrite levy. Young people are at their wits' end trying to buy houses. How can they ever expect to afford a home when the Government keeps applying taxes that are simply going to be passed on to the poor misfortunate first-time buyers? This is the death nail in the coffin of housing, if it continues.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy.

The residential zone land tax will raise revenue. Any tax raises revenue. However, that is not the primary purpose of the tax. Its primary purpose is to make sure that where land is zoned for housing, it gets developed for housing. We are all aware of the need for additional housing in the State and the fact that much land that is zoned for housing is not being developed. That is the purpose of and the thinking behind the tax. It is a response to the severe housing crisis that our citizens face. I might be wrong about this - and I will check up on it - but my understanding is that the tax will not apply if reasonable efforts are being made to develop land. It is not that houses or apartments have to be built on the relevant land tomorrow but that those involved must enter into the process of applying for planning permission, etc. I will double-check on that. I agree that it would not be fair to impose the tax on somebody who is making reasonable efforts to develop land for housing.

It is worth pointing out that a landowner can request that land be dezoned. We accept that people have private property rights and that land might be in a family for generations and they may not want to develop it. Under the legislation, it is possible for someone who does not want land to be developed to request that it be dezoned. The latter then allows us to zone land elsewhere that can then be developed for housing.

I very much agree with the Deputy that we need to make sure that our planning departments are properly resourced. The same goes for An Bord Pleanála. We will build approximately 28,000 new homes in Ireland this year - more than any year in over a decade - but we need the figure to be much higher than that. We need to build well over 30,000 homes next year. Part of that is making sure that planning departments are properly resourced.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I listened to the Tánaiste's response. He is a great supporter of the US Republican Party. Listening to him, what comes to mind is Ronald Reagan's assertion that the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." There is nothing that the Government has done to help. Every time it seeks to give help to first-time buyers or do anything in respect of housing, everything just gets worse. Something has got to give.

The Tánaiste

For the record, I am not a supporter of any political party in the United States.

I will check with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, on the issue of reliefs. This is a tax that I agree with. Land that is zoned for housing should be developed for housing and people should not hang on to it. If they want to dezone land, that is fair enough. If, however, land is zoned for housing, it should be developed for housing. I do not agree that the tax should apply if somebody is making reasonable efforts, has applied for planning permission, etc. I will definitely follow that up with the Minister for Finance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Fitzmaurice. We have a pretty good record on time to this point.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

We have read over the past week that insurance companies in Ireland made €159 million in profits in 2021. In 2018, the figure was €130 million. There has been a substantial increase. It is not that I am against companies making profit. In fairness, the Government brought in changes to help in respect of the insurance debacle relating to this country. It is alarming when one gets an email that the insurance companies seem to be picking and choosing and doing their own thing. I received an email from a young person who was approved for a mortgage and who did the right thing at a time when 20% of people missed having smear tests. The person in question went and had a smear test. Irregularities were found but everything was sorted. She was approved for a mortgage but the insurance company has informed here that she cannot get health insurance or mortgage protection. This person, who did not want a social house and who had obtained mortgage approval and was doing her own thing, is being held back.

An estate in Ballaghaderreen that was built 40 years ago has never had a problem with water, flooding or anything else. I checked with Roscommon County Council and there was never a problem. The council could see nothing in any way that could affect the estate. I checked the Office of Public Works's one-in-100-year and one-in-1,000-year maps. Lo and behold, an insurance company decided randomly to get a Dutch company to look at the estate to which I refer. People will probably find out that it also looked at other estates throughout the country. Some genius, as part of a desktop exercise, decided that there may be a risk of flooding down the line and the residents of the estate can no longer get insurance.

While I recognise some of what has been done by the Government over the past number of years in respect of insurance, what more can we do to try to put manners on the insurance companies in the context of some of the things they are doing? Can the Tánaiste talk to the Central Bank about this matter? What these companies say is that unless everything is 100%, they will not insure people. That is not what insurance is for. If you crash your car, you draw your insurance. The premium might go up a small bit, but you still get insurance. A person who did the right thing in the context of her health and who obtained mortgage approval will not now be able to draw down the mortgage because of the rules being implemented by her insurance company. What can the Government do to help the people to whom I refer, as well as those who are affected by insurance companies just pulling something out of a hat? There is no way of disproving what they are saying to the effect that there may be a flood risk somewhere down the line. What can the Government do in respect of this matter?

The Tánaiste

Like the Deputy, I understand that insurance companies have to make a profit. If they do not make a profit, they cannot operate or function. If the latter were the case, there would not be any insurance companies or insurance policies and there would certainly be no competition. Obviously, they should be making reasonable rather than excessive profits.

It is encouraging to have seen motor insurance come down a lot in recent years. I am not happy that house insurance is still going up. We had expected that when price walking ended, the loyalty penalty would be removed and prices would fall. In general, prices have not fallen. Despite the considerable efforts we have made around employer liability and public liability, premiums are pretty flat. I want to see them fall.

In terms of the reforms that are under way, the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, is bringing in new legislation in respect of duty of care in order to rebalance the responsibility when it comes to entering a premises. This will mean that people have a little more responsibility not to injure themselves or get injured. That legislation should be done in the next few months. The Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Calleary, is bringing through the Personal Injuries Resolution Board Bill 2022, which will allow more cases to be settled before the board and to discourage people from going to court in certain circumstances. We think that will help to bring down premiums.

I chair the Government group on insurance. We have good engagement with the insurance industry - the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Fleming, is engaged in that as well - and with the Central Bank, which is the regulator.

Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned one or two specific examples of somebody who, I think, is a cancer survivor-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

She did not have cancer.

The Tánaiste

-----and somebody who has an issue with flooding. If they are willing to share that detail with us - it would be with the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming - we can take the matter up with the regulator and the industry and see what they have to say.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I thank the Tánaiste. The Tánaiste comes from the health sector. The person to whom I refer did not have cancer. Irregularities were found. Everything was cleared up, but there is now that little doubt. It is difficult to hear someone say that she wished she had not gone for the smear test before she went for her mortgage because now she is in trouble for what she did. We are encouraging women to make sure that they go for these tests. With this person, everything is sorted but, because there was an irregularity, she is not able to get home protection and cannot draw down her mortgage. I welcome what the Tánaiste said, and I will give him the details of the case.

There is also the other aspect I am seeing in the context of housing estates. I gave one example of houses that were built 40 years ago. No Government body, be it the local authority or the Office of Public Works, has ever red-flagged the estate in question as being one where there could be trouble. However, an insurance company has decided overnight that it cannot insure the residents' houses in respect of flooding. That is a damnable situation for those who have not had any problem whatsoever for 40 years.

The Tánaiste

A regular smear test should not be grounds for refusing insurance. Insurers must price in risk.

If somebody is very ill or terminally ill they do have to take it into account. An irregular smear test does not fit into that category, or certainly does not in my mind. I am genuinely interested and if the Deputy could pass on the information, with the permission of that person, we will take it up with the industry and see what we can do.