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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Jan 2023

Vol. 291 No. 5

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Equality Issues

I thank the Minister of State for being here. In late December I received an email from a person called Jennifer Hoey who offered a good observation she made in the course of her own studies, to the effect that in the Equal Status Act 2000, "'sexual orientation' means heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual orientation". In her submission she asks whether it would not be more inclusive to use the terminology "heterosexual and LGBTQ+". That would be more inclusive and in keeping with current thinking and the way matters have evolved since the Act of 2000.

This set me about a bit of research. We updated the Act in 2012 and looked at and included gender and variances of gender so there would not be discrimination on grounds of gender when it came to insurance. Thus, a very discrete provision in the law was introduced by the 2012 Act. That was too narrow to be deemed inclusive. We have the Gender Recognition Act 2015 which, to be fair, will cover an individual who perhaps started work or accessed a service and once they have a gender recognition certificate they are entitled to access all services and have their gender recognised. However, it is similarly specific in its provision. While it is very excellent and a great way of moving forward, it is so specific and so narrow it does not necessarily include other genders and how people identify themselves and self-reference themselves.

I am a practitioner in employment law, so this led me to look at employment equality. The definitions in the Equal Status Act are mirrored in the Employment Equality Act. We have an extra one in the Equal Status Act that has to do with housing. From an employment equality perspective, and having been a practitioner on both sides, that is, with an individual on one side of the table and with an employer on the other side of the table, I know the loopholes and how the arguments have been made. Indeed, I could possibly shamefully say I have exploited them in my career as a barrister.

However, the argument made by Jennifer is very important in that she is pointing at our language evolving and our having a mechanism for language to evolve. We cannot immediately jump, and legislation cannot immediately jump, to respond to something that may evolve again in two years’ time. We cannot be that responsive in our legislation but when we are in here arguing legislation and amendments with Ministers, or in the committees doing pre-legislative scrutiny, when somebody wants something I will sometimes say it is too prescriptive and the law cannot be that prescriptive because it must be anticipating a wider situation.

When the Equal Status Act was written, it anticipated a wider situation but that situation has now evolved again. If we take Jennifer’s suggestion that instead of being prescriptive around the definition of sexual orientation we should include the phrase "heterosexual and LGBTQ+", then we have a context, but one that is also very inclusive. It is a good suggestion and my raising the matter is to ask that we start thinking about this. I have no doubt we already have but it is something we need to think about.

I ask the Minister of State to reply.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. It is my first time coming before the House with him in the Chair and I wish him all the best in his role.

I thank Senator Seery Kearney for raising this important matter.

The discussion today provides a welcome opportunity to provide an update on the progress on the programme for Government commitment to ensure that transgender, gender non-conforming and intersex people have explicit protection within equality grounds. I am taking this Commencement matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. He would love to have been here because he has done so much work on this subject. He could talk about this matter without the script and he could have an over-and-back debate. I am going to read his script but, as the Senator knows, the Minister is very engaged on this issue.

As Senators will be aware, this commitment is being brought forward as part of a comprehensive review of the Equality Acts under way in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. As I said, this is being led out by the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. Ireland has become a proud, progressive and modern State that supports and cherishes all people equally. We have made great strides in recent decades to promote equality and respond to the changing needs of a diverse population. We have a proud record as a champion of human rights internationally and have been at the vanguard of change in advancing equality for LGBTI+ people. We continue to strive to be at the forefront of real, positive and impactful change in the lives of LGBTI+ communities.

Despite these advances, challenges remain and LGBTI+ people continue to face significant barriers to full participation in public life and experience unacceptable levels of harassment, violence and discrimination. The Government is committed to addressing these barriers, including through commitments under the national LGBTI+ inclusion strategy, which also contains a specific action to review the Employment Equality Acts and Equal Status Acts to ensure that transgender, non-conforming and intersex people have explicit protection within the equality grounds.

The Equality Acts - the Employment Equality Acts 1998 to 2015 and the Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2015 - are a central pillar in our equality infrastructure. Discrimination is defined as treating one person in a less favourable way than another person based on nine grounds, namely, gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race, including colour, nationality or ethnic or national origins, and membership of the Traveller community, with a housing assistance ground also applicable for the Equal Status Acts.

The review of the Equality Acts will include consideration of the scope of existing grounds and whether additional grounds, such as a socio-economic ground, should be considered. The review will also consider the functioning and accessibility of the Acts, whether existing exemptions should be modified or removed and whether the legislation adequately addresses intersectionality. The review of the Equality Acts commenced with a public consultation process which received an extensive response. I do not think any of us would be surprised by that. These submissions are currently being considered by officials and will inform the development of policy and legislative proposals, which the Minister intends to publish by mid-year. A report of the consultation process will be published in the coming weeks. As work on the review is ongoing, it is not possible to give an indication of the approach that will be taken. It is important that any amendments to existing grounds or introduction of new grounds be given detailed legal consideration to ensure the legislation will appropriately address the issues at hand.

Once again, I thank the Senator for bringing this issue before the House and the Cathaoirleach for choosing it.

I thank the Minister of State. Her response addresses an issue on which our equality legislation always needs to lead out, namely, framing language for those who are perhaps a little nervous, cautious or afraid of offence. I am one of those. I am conscious that I am not affected by these aspects, so I am very tender in how I approach my language. This can lead to an uncertainty that could be interpreted as a lack of commitment and, with all my being, that is most certainly not the case. The Minister of State used words like "intersectionality" and framed the language. Our legislation needs to do this as well because this will provide a definition that everybody can embrace and include and that will become the normal discourse in everyday life. I thank the Minister of State. I know that the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has done an awful lot in this area and is very progressive. I value this and look forward to the report.

I thank the Senator again. I will convey her views to the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. No more than the Senator, the Minister understands legislation, its value and importance and the wording used. He is one Minister I can definitely say reads Bills ad nauseam. He will continue to do that in this case. I will bring the Senator's feedback to him. I look forward to working with her in future.

As Senator Boylan, who tabled the next Commencement matter, is not present, I propose that the House suspend until she arrives.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 9.46 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 9.47 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 9.46 a.m. and resumed at 9.47 a.m.

Pesticide Use

I welcome Senator Boylan and apologise if there has been a mix-up in the choreography this morning. The Senator has got her cardiovascular workout done for today.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Seanadóir Hackett. I raise this issue on the back of reports we heard in the media of several raptors having been found poisoned in the midlands, particularly the white-tailed eagle found dead between Lough Ramar in County Cavan and Loch Sheelin in County Westmeath in November 2022. I have raised the matter of toxicology tests before in this House and the need for these data to be collected to allow us to know what poisons are killing our raptors and how we can prevent it happening in future. Toxicology tests in this case revealed that the raptor died from ingesting carbofuran, which is a lethal pest control poison that has been outlawed for a decade because of its devastating impact on bird life. The National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, is still trying to establish what happened to the white-tailed eagle and whether it could have ingested the poison through eating a dead animal that had been laced with it.

This is not just about an attack on a single bird because, as the Minister of State knows, in a biodiversity crisis this is an attack on so much more than that. There are knock-on impacts right along the food chain. The original re-introduction programme from 2007 to 2011 involved releasing 100 young white-tailed eagles in Killarney National Park in County Kerry. I was lucky at the time as I was working in the national park and got to see the chicks. They are big babies and are fed deer legs. They are not like little chicks we see on Easter cards. We know, however, that there have been a number of poisoning attacks on these beautiful birds. It is wonderful to see them being reintroduced in this country. There is wonderful co-operation with the Norwegian Government to allow us to have these birds. It has donated these birds to us.

As I said, the white-tailed eagle was poisoned by carbofuran and this substance has been banned for ten years. We must ask ourselves where this carbofuran came from and how people got their hands on it. We suspect that these are poisons people have lying about in their sheds and have not disposed of.

When I raised this issue previously, the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, suggested that we might possibly look at an amnesty for these products. Now that we have seen another poisoning incident, I ask the Government to consider issuing a public service announcement offering an amnesty to people who have these poisons in their sheds and may not be aware that they are no longer permitted to be used. They should be allowed to present them so that they can be correctly disposed of to ensure they do not end up in the food chain or affect our precious biodiversity, particularly our raptor species.

I have also raised concerns regarding access to legal pesticides and rodenticides. Some of these are very poisonous chemicals but they are freely available to citizens in local discount stores and gardening centres. I ask that consideration be given to preventing them from being so readily accessible to the general public. Whatever about farmers having to use them and being trained in their use, the general public does not need to be using these poisons and they should be taken off the shelves. I am interested in hearing the Minister of State's view on the amnesty for carbofuran and other banned substances.

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. I am aware of the incredibly concerning reports in connection with the white-tailed eagle. I strongly condemn this illegal act and I urge anyone with any information to contact either the National Parks and Wildlife Service or An Garda Síochána.

I will first outline the regulatory position with regard to carbofuran. This chemical was formerly used as an insecticide in EU member states, including Ireland. Its EU approval for use in plant protection products was withdrawn by a European Commission decision on 13 June 2007. This was due to a number of significant concerns, including its toxicity for birds and mammals which we can clearly see in this case. It has been illegal to use or trade products containing carbofuran anywhere in the EU since December 2008.

Regulatory controls in Ireland have been further strengthened by other legislation. This includes the European Communities (Birds and Natural Habitats) (Restrictions on Use of Poison Bait) Regulations 2010 and the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2022, which made deliberate poisoning an offence.

Possession of carborfuran is also illegal. Products containing carbofuran have been classified as hazardous waste since the legal use period expired in December 2008. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, have primary regulatory responsibility for the management of hazardous waste.

I also want to highlight the important work done by the NPWS in partnership with the State Laboratory and the regional veterinary laboratory service of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to investigate bird of prey deaths. A formal protocol known as RAPTOR, which stands for recording and addressing persecution and threats to our raptors, was introduced in 2011. The protocol includes testing for secondary poisoning in birds of prey with carbofuran and other substances being routinely monitored. Several reports on incidences of poisoning have been published.

The information from the RAPTOR project suggests that a small number of individuals may have illegally procured carbofuran or illegally retained old product stock. The desirability of identifying and removing such stocks is recognised and options to facilitate achieving this objective are currently being considered.

A pilot project, the farm hazardous waste collection campaign, which ran from 2013 to 2017, provided farmers with an opportunity to safely dispose of hazardous waste. This was a collaborative project led by the EPA, working with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the then Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Teagasc and local authorities. The initiative was also supported by the Irish Farmers Association, Bórd Bia and other stakeholders.

At that time, a total of 9,000 farmers availed of the service and almost 1,000 tonnes of hazardous and potentially hazardous waste were collected across 46 collection centres. That is a significant amount, which included 68 tonnes of waste pesticides and small quantities of carbofuran products. The Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Environment, Climate and Communications are working to develop and agree a suitable long-term plan for collection of farm hazardous wastes.

I recognise the critically important role that birds of prey play in our ecosystems and I am mindful of the need for a multifaceted approach to ensure the highest level of protection for them and other wildlife. It is clear that we need to continue to work intensively with relevant stakeholders across a number of areas to tackle wildlife crime and protect our native birds of prey.

In relation to the Senator's point about access to pesticides, I share her concerns and I will certainly look into the matter further.

I thank the Minister of State for her response. I share her concerns. I reiterate the message to people that poisoning is illegal but also that we are in a biodiversity crisis. It was declared a number of years ago and we have to protect as much of our wildlife as possible. There should be zero tolerance for anybody who is engaging in such activities. The figures for the pilot project which ran from 2013 to 2017 show how successful it was, with almost 1,000 tonnes of hazardous material being collected and 9,000 farmers engaging in the scheme. However, that was almost six years ago and it should be looked at again. Young farmers who have taken over farms may wish to participate in such an amnesty. The Department should consider rolling that out again. As I said, there must be zero tolerance for anyone deliberately carrying out wildlife crimes.

The pilot campaign proved to be very successful so running something similar again merits consideration. My Department will continue to work closely with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the EPA and other stakeholders to develop and implement a permanent national scheme for the collection of farm wastes. This could provide a mechanism to facilitate the identification and removal of existing stocks of carbofuran and other poisonous or illegally held chemicals. It is something we do need to work on and implement. It would serve us all and our wildlife well.

Tax Reliefs

I am delighted to welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. Her appointment is well deserved.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. It is wonderful to welcome the Minister of State on her first visit to the Seanad in her new role. The issue I have submitted as a Commencement matter is an important one. There is a scheme for persons with disabilities who have a primary medical certificate to claim back VRT and VAT or have them waived as a driver or passenger. The scheme is also open to charities. The current limits are €10,000, €16,000 and €22,000. The €10,000 limit applies to drivers and the €16,000 limit applies to passengers. The problem is that we are moving to hybrid and electric vehicles. These are considerably more expensive than petrol and diesel vehicles. That said, petrol and diesel vehicles are getting more expensive as well. The scheme needs to be reviewed in any case, outside of the climate commitments that the Government has made. People incur a significant expense in adopting hybrid or electric vehicles. The unintended consequence of the commitment the Government has made to moving towards hybrid and electric vehicles is that it creates inequality. It makes it more expensive for people with disabilities who are more in need of support and resources than most other groups in society.

The scheme needs to be changed as a matter of urgency. While it is a good scheme, it is not good if it does not include everybody who needs it.

I encourage the Minister of State at the earliest opportunity, working in her new role with the Ministers, Deputies Michael McGrath and Donohoe, to bring this scheme up to date so people with disabilities who are climate-conscious are not discriminated against and are in a position to avail of the scheme and the benefits it is designed to give. I am looking forward to hearing the Minister of State's reply and appreciate her coming to the House to take the matter today.

I thank the Senator for raising this important matter. Something I am deeply interested in since coming into the Department is the way in which our tax structures can be of assistance to anybody who needs additional assistance, such as the disabled drivers or passengers community. I agree that the scheme needs to be reviewed, including from the perspective of accessibility to the scheme. I am not sure it is as open as it could be for the range of people with different levels of disability who need different types of support. We could look at it in a more holistic way.

As the Senator is aware, the disabled drivers and disabled passengers scheme provides relief from vehicle registration tax, VRT, and VAT on the purchase of an adapted car as well as an exemption from motor tax and an annual fuel grant. This scheme is open to severely and permanently disabled persons as a driver or as a passenger and also to certain charitable organisations. In order to qualify for relief, as the Senator has said, the applicant must hold a primary medical certificate, PMC, issued by the relevant principal medical officer, or a board medical certificate issued by the Disabled Drivers Medical Board of Appeal. To qualify for such a certificate, an applicant must meet one of six specified criteria as specified in the Finance Act 2020. As the Senator is aware, to qualify for the relief, the vehicle must be specifically constructed or adapted for use by the PMC holder as a disabled driver or, where being transported as a disabled passenger, by a family member or organisation.

I spoke to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, who was just in the House on a different matter, about this last night in advance of speaking with the Senator today. I know she has conducted an ongoing review and the Department of Finance has been involved with that also. It is about examining the threshold at which a person might qualify for relief. It may be that there are groups of people who do not meet the current threshold but who might qualify for something less than the parameters that have currently been set. It is important that Government look at this in a more holistic way rather than leaving the threshold just as high in every circumstance.

The limit of VRT and VAT reliefs at the moment depends on the PMC holder and the adaptations made to the vehicle. Disabled drivers can receive up to €10,000 for adaptations to the vehicle, which can include installing hand controls, for example, or up to €16,000 if making certain more specific adaptations. Disabled passengers can receive up to €16,000 for adaptations and organisations, as the Senator is aware, can receive up to €16,000 for relevant adaptations if transporting five or fewer PMC holders.

This matter is under review between the Department of Health and the Department of Finance. The Senator's intervention is extremely timely in that regard from the perspective of electric vehicles but also in respect of opening the scheme in a more holistic way to people at different levels of need who might require different levels of support.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. I welcome the fact that this issue is being reviewed. However, reviews can often take a significant length of time. In this case, the review needs to be short and snappy. As an aside, if I may, when firsts happen they should be acknowledged. I am here 12 years next April and it is the first time a Minister has ever contacted me to know what font I would like the reply in. Not alone does the Minister of State get equality but she gets disability. I thank her for that.

I thank the Senator. It is important to be consistent in every respect. The Senator is completely right about the timing of the review. Having spoken to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, last night, I know that a number of meetings were held during 2022 and a draft final report was considered on 8 December. This really is very timely. The main conclusion of that report is, as the Senator has said, that the scheme needs to be replaced with a fit-for-purpose, needs-based vehicular adaptation scheme in line with best international practice. Additional costs to purchase and adapt a vehicle, specifically for example for wheelchair accessibility, accord with a range of different international examples.

Our current scheme is not fit for purpose. Since the 1960s the scheme has been subject to a series of very limited and disparate ad hoc changes which have added layer upon layer of administrative complication. I do not believe enough has been done to assist a considerable number of people with mobility or other sensory issues, which were not considered at that time.

This Commencement matter is extremely timely. Let us see what the report says when it is published. Any change or expansion of the eligibility criteria will still require an individual to prove that they meet the criteria. We need to look at a better needs-based approach that addresses mobility and sensory issues in a much more thoughtful and holistic way.

I applaud the Minister of State for her sensitivity to Senator Conway's requirements on font. I thank the Senator for calling that out and appreciating it. We are all learning on a daily basis. It is very welcome that the Minister of State is noting the issue of accessibility to the scheme. People like amputees do not have access to it despite their need.

Special Educational Needs

I thank the Cathaoirleach's office for selecting this matter for debate. I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, on her well-deserved appointment. I know she will do a tremendous job.

Ábalta Special School is a day school based in Parkmore in Galway for students with autism and complex associated needs. Students in the school range in age from four to 18. There is a multidisciplinary team of teachers and therapists delivering educational programmes tailored to the needs of each student as well as supporting those students and their families. There are individualised teaching programmes with a high staff-to-student ratio. There are intensive occupational therapy interventions by the school's occupational therapist. Communication programmes are delivered by the school's speech and language therapist consultant and community integration is fostered for students through mainstream integration programmes in a local school as well as community linkages with local industry for older students. There is a range of child-centred, evidence-based educational programmes strongly focused on helping children with autism reach their individual potential.

Autism Ireland is the patron of the Ábalta school and the ethos is around child-centred, evidence-based intervention, individualised teaching, parental involvement and professional respect. It is a multi-denominational, coeducational school. The school is guided by the tenet that every child with autism has a right to an education, one that is grounded in scientific evidence of efficacy. It is committed to ensuring the safety and well-being of students at all times and to recognising each child as an individual, appreciating his or her unique personalities. It believes all parents should take an active role in their child's educational future, thus they are invited to participate in planning their children's educational programme. The school strives to create a positive educational environment for its students and respects the right to privacy for all children and families at Ábalta.

Ábalta Special School has lodged an application with the Department of Education for a school, to relocate the school to the Kilcornan campus in Clarinbridge. I thank the Minister of State with responsibility for special education, Deputy Madigan, who attended a stakeholders' meeting before Christmas. She met with the principal, a number of parents and advocates for the Ábalta school and other schools in the area. The present school building was not purpose-built. I believe it was previously a Montessori or crèche. Ábalta moved in and adapted the building as best it could.

Parents travel long distances, including from outside Galway county and city, to attend the school. The school does a wonderful job but the building is not purpose-built and a new purpose-built building is needed. An application has been made for Kilcornan campus in Clarinbridge, which is a wonderful wooded location. It would provide the quietness that is needed. It would also provide much more outdoor space for the sensory activity that is required as well.

I visited the school a number of years ago and, to my shame, things have not progressed. It is vital that the new site is identified and supported by the Department and that the school be allowed to progress to build a new school at this site. It would be a wonderful improvement on the existing facilities. It is clear that the school does wonderful things.

The school has a strong ethos of individualised training in terms of speech and language therapy and occupational therapy. Distance is not a problem as parents travel to the school from as far away as outside of Galway, which is a big county, into Galway City to avail of the services. I would like the Department to progress the application.

I thank the Senator for raising this matter. He is correct that the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Madigan, who has responsibility for special needs, has met stakeholders. Last night, I spoke to her to get the most recent update for the Senator. She is in County Mayo; otherwise she would be here in person. I have a similar school in my constituency and I am well aware of the sheer positivity that a well-run school of that nature and with that level of support provides to autistic children and their families.

The Senator mentioned space and quiet. For children with additional sensory needs who require some extra space, the design of their school is very important and facilities around the school are just as important as specific facilities in the school such as occupational therapy. It is crucially important that the Oireachtas recognise the need to provide better services for autistic children and ensure the practical effects of that are felt through the progression of a school by the Department.

The Joint Committee on Autism, chaired by Senator Micheál Carrigy, published an interim report last December. I was a member of that committee until recently. The interim report focuses on the need for education provision and real support at an early stage for autistic children. The provision of special needs education is an ongoing priority for the Government. As Senators will be aware, in 2022 in excess of €2.3 billion was provided for supporting special education in the Department of Education. For 2023, the special education budget will be substantially increased by over 12%, which means the Department will spend over €2.6 billion on special education this year. This level of educational funding and support is unprecedented. It represents in excess of 27% of the Department total allocation for 2023.

Ábalta Special School is a multi-denominational special school under the patronage of Autism Ireland. The school is based in rented premises at Parkmore, Galway. The enrolment at the school in 2022 was 18 pupils and the school has a current staffing of a principal and three special class teachers. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has responsibility for co-ordinating and advising on the education provision for children nationwide.

The Department and the NCSE are working closely on a more streamlined and joined-up planning process to ensure a targeted approach to meet the demand for special needs ahead of each new school year. The Department is committed to delivering an inclusive educational environment for all pupils. The Department and the NCSE continue to work closely on planning the delivery of new places. I know the NCSE has had engagement with the Ábalta Special School regarding the potential future expansion of the school.

Under Project Ireland 2040, the education sector will receive a total of approximately €4.4 billion capital investment over the period 2021 to 2025. This significant investment allows us to move forward with our ambitious plans but that requires, as the Senator has said, a real focus by the Department to ensure delivery.

The Senator and I know only too well the practical need to manage and progress, at every stage, the delivery of key infrastructure for the community. It is important to raise this issue in this forum. The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, having been at the school and met the principal, teachers and stakeholders, is well seized of the importance to develop the school and the need for additional facilities. She has asked me to communicate to the Seanad her total commitment to pushing this through the Department in the most expeditious way available to her.

I thank the Minister of State for the response. I acknowledge the interest shown by the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, in this matter and her meeting with the principal and stakeholders.

I again ask that the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, progress this matter through the Department and that the application not be viewed as just another application. It is a very important school for special children who deserve the best. They have a difficult enough life and their parents have unique challenges from day to day. All parents face unique challenges but these parents have additional unique challenges and we need to do our very best for these special children.

As the Senator is well aware, the parents in a school community and in a school such as Ábalta Special School know best what their children need. While I cannot speak to the specific site as I am at a remove from the Department of Education, I will convey to the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, that it is the parents and members of the school community who know best what a child with additional needs requires, from the earliest intervention at Montessori level and right through the school journey. The Senator is correct to identify the site. Obviously, I do not have information about the site in terms of its ownership, the planning process, availability of the site and any related matters. I will, however, convey to the Minister of State that there is a need to recognise the views of the local community, school and stakeholders and ask her to make every effort to progress the site, if it is the correct one, and see what the possibilities are in the Department.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.16 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 10.33 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 10.16 a.m. and resumed at 10.33 a.m.
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