Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1936

Vol. 63 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 6—Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £505,236 chun slánuithe na suime is ga chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig na gCoimisinéirí Ioncuim, maraon le Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a sum not exceeding £505,236 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, including certain other Services administered by that Office.

Mr. Cosgrave

There is an item in this Estimate, "JJ—Motor Cars for Frontier Patrols." In the Finance Bill I believe further and better provision is made for the prevention and detection of smuggling and of all sorts of activities of that kind. In a case of that sort everybody is prepared to stand up and denounce smuggling. Nobody has any sympathy for the smuggler when he is caught, but special circumstances relating to the Border have got to be taken into account. For the last two or three years that Border has been the salvation of the agricultural industry in this country, and has been so utilised. If it is to be thought that you can engage in all sorts of activities on one side, and not on the other, I think you are making a mistake. The Minister, like every other Minister for Finance, thinks that any evasion or dereliction on the part of an unfortunate taxpayer in connection with the revenue laws is a mortal offence.

General Mulcahy

Not always.

Mr. Cosgrave

It is the one thing they will not forgive. Nobody agrees with Border activities when they are discovered, but people are inclined to take a quite lenient view if the acts are not discovered. The expenses in connection with this business here are enormous. Would the Minister at all consider the advisability of lessening, at any rate, whatever inducement there is for that sort of activity so far as one side of the Border is concerned? He is in a very responsible position in the Cabinet. He is looked up to, and is expected to provide large sums of money for subsidies and things of that kind. He has to provide extra machinery to deal with the situation arising out of what he was pleased to describe as Government policy. Government policy has increased this illicit traffic on the Border—it is directly attributable to it. It is impossible to have a situation in which there are enormous duties and enormous costs without activities of that sort. Now, while spending very big sums of money to prevent breaches of the law on one side or the other of the Border, it might be that both Governments could, by reason of negotiations, lessen the reasons for these activities. Let the Minister see what can be done on that subject.

General Mulcahy

Will he also see if it is the general policy of the Revenue Commissioners to treat as a mortal sin the bringing in of tariffed goods across the Border, unlawfully in some cases while it is allowed in others. If we take the County Monaghan alone we find that there is one unfortunate young fellow doing nine months in jail because he brought in some sugar, I suppose on some Saturday. There are merchants in Carrickmacross who, if they brought in sugar would be prosecuted. But there is, at least, one merchant in Carrickmacross who has carte blanche, either from persons connected with the Border or the revenue to bring in as much sugar as he likes. You have a position in Carrickmacross, as one Border town, where persons who deal in sugar are lying under a very definite grievance if one of their fraternity has the privilege, no matter what may happen, to get in sugar in fair quantities, from time to time, and to dispose of that sugar in the ordinary way without paying any customs duty. Therefore, I should like to ask the Minister how many cases there have been in Monaghan in which persons have been prosecuted in the last 12 months for importing stuff in that way? In how many cases has there been any prosecution or anything beyond simple seizure of the stuff and in how many cases is the whole thing being winked at? But the fact remains you have one unfortunate fellow in jail for bringing in one small quantity of sugar, and you have the very definite grievance among traders in Monaghan when one of their fraternity is actually able to import sugar without any proceedings being taken against him.

Mr. MacEntee

I am very sorry Deputy Mulcahy did not intimate to me that he proposed to mention any particular case here in relation to smuggling, or traffic across the Border, because if he had I would be in a position to have given him the exact facts in regard to this matter.

General Mulcahy

I must say I did not intend to raise it, but I could not help underlining some of Deputy Cosgrave's remarks that there were exceptions.

Mr. MacEntee

I can assure the Deputy—I do not know whether he will accept my assurance or not—so far as I am concerned there is no exception, and so far as the Revenue Commissioners' Department is concerned there is no exception either. I have investigated sometimes cases in which harshness has been alleged against the Revenue Commissioners, and in others in which leniency was alleged. I have come to the conclusion that while the Revenue Commissioners are given wide discretion, they have invariably acted as justice requires. They have not been moved in any way by outside influences or by anything but the facts. We have to remember, in regard to smuggling, that even though the facts may appear on the surface to be alike, they are not always the same.

General Mulcahy

They are not.

Mr. MacEntee

I think the Deputy can take this as fairly authoritative— if there is any person in jail for smuggling, he is there because there is reason to believe he is a habitual smuggler and engaged in continuous traffic. If the Deputy would be good enough to give me, in confidence, particulars of the case he has mentioned across the floor of the House, I shall have it investigated and put the Deputy in possession of the facts. I am supposed to have a hard heart in these matters but I do recognise that unless the revenue laws are impartially administered nothing but the greatest abuse and the greatest injury can come to the country.

General Mulcahy

I shall give the Minister particulars of the case.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister mentioned the phrase "had reason to believe"; does he mean that the person was convicted?

Mr. MacEntee

He has been convicted but, apparently, the Revenue Commissioners have not mitigated the fine and he has had to go to jail. Deputy Mulcahy recognises that the Revenue Commissioners occupy an independent position vis-á-vis the Minister for Finance in these matters but, on investigation of complaints I have caused to be made from time to time, I have invariably found, from the particulars furnished me by the Revenue Commissioners, that the cases in which they had refused to mitigate the fines were cases in which they themselves had reason to believe that the persons concerned were habitually engaged in the smuggling traffic.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister undertake to go into the case I have mentioned and, if he is satisfied that the person in jail is not an habitual smuggler, will he order his release?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not in a position to do that. I want to lay down the principle that I am not prepared to force the hands of the Revenue Commissioners or to make representations to them in any way in regard to smuggling or tax evasion or anything of that sort. I made up my mind at the outset that that was the line on which I would go, and I have not departed from it. I am sure the Revenue Commissioners will advert to the discussion which has taken place here, and, if they feel they can exercise a certain amount of leniency, I am sure they will do so, but I am not going to ask them to do other than they think right.

General Mulcahy

I understand the responsibility of the Revenue Commissioners and the relationship between the Minister and them, but I ask him, if the particulars with which I propose to furnish him are not in accord with the principle he has enunciated, to represent to the Commissioners that there was a certain straining in the matter. In an area where people know that some people are able to import sugar—they are trading in it, and it is quite easy to see—an ordinary person coming along from market and bringing a couple of pounds of sugar may be detected by a customs official. Knowing the position, his reaction may be to give impudence to the officials and generally to behave in a manner which would prejudice him in the eyes of authority.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not want to prolong this discussion, but I should like this to be generally understood—that, so far as I am concerned, no citizen in regard to the taxes that are properly due to the State has any privileges whatsoever. If anybody thinks citizens have privileges in that way, I want to disabuse their minds of the idea.

General Mulcahy

In fact, they have.

Mr. MacEntee

On this question of smuggling, I should also like it to be known that, if information is given to the Revenue Commissioners, the people giving the information will be rewarded if it leads to a conviction. I do not want anybody to be under the impression that we are prepared to wink at smuggling, no matter who the person concerned is. I want that to be known to the general body of the people. If the Deputy furnishes me with the necessary information in the case to which he has referred, I shall see that it is thoroughly sifted. I shall not endeavour to influence the decision of the Revenue Commissioners. So long as I am here, no person, if I can help it, will avoid or evade the penalties for smuggling.

General Mulcahy

I do not understand the Minister when he says he is not going to try to influence the Revenue Commissioners in connection with these cases. If he is not going to do that, I do not see what purpose will be served by giving the information. However, I shall give it to him.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister made one observation which, on reflection, he will, I think, have some difficulty in standing over. I know nothing about the man who has been convicted but, in respect of a man accused of an offence, the best judges of whether or not he is entitled to leniency are not the persons who prosecuted him. If the Revenue Commissioners have prosecuted in this case, they are not the persons who should have the last word as to whether the sentence of imprisonment should be reviewed or not.

Mr. MacEntee

All I can say is that that is the law.

Mr. Alton

I should like to know from the Minister if there is any prospect of having the accommodation for customs examination of luggage, particularly the luggage of travellers and tourists coming into the country, improved. In certain places, the accommodation is quite inadequate. This makes the work vexatious and miserable both for the officers who have to examine the luggage and for the passengers whose luggage is being examined. I refer particularly to Dun Laoghaire and I should like that something be done to improve matters.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy is referring to travellers who come in by our seaports?

Mr. Alton

Yes.

Mr. MacEntee

The matter is rather difficult and complicated by reason of the fact that the accommodation at Dun Laoghaire is somewhat limited. The packet boats come along one side of the jetty, while the train is waiting at the other side. Passengers would not like to have to walk off the jetty, down to some examining station and then come back to the train. In general, we have been urging on those concerned in the matter—the Government are not the only people concerned—that proper facilities should be provided for examination of passengers' luggage. While the examination should be effective, we are anxious that it should be conducted with as little inconvenience as possible to the passengers. We do not like to see our own officers working under uncomfortable conditions because, under those conditions, work is sometimes scamped.

Mr. Alton

Coming from Belfast by motor car, the examination is sometimes carried out under very unpleasant conditions. That is so when it is raining.

Mr. MacEntee

We have a scheme in hand for the general improvement of conditions along the Border.

Question put and agreed to.