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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 27: Oifig an Aire Oideachais (Atógáil).

D'atógadh an díospóireacht ar an dtairiscint seo a leanas:
Go ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun íoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Márta, 1972, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais (lena n-áirítear Forais Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon), le haghaidh seirbhísí ilghnéitheacha áirithe oideachais agus cultúir, agus chun ildeontais-i-gcabhair a íoc.
—(Aire Oideachais.)

Last night I mentioned the need for a more comprehensive system of providing education, in their homes and in institutions, for the mentally and physically handicapped and I should like to comment on the matter in greater detail. I should like to see a comprehensive system of education introduced which would ensure that children who are suffering from any kind of physical disability are not penalised later in life by reason of the fact that they are compelled in childhood to spend a considerable amount of time in hospital.

This is an opportune moment to praise the religious orders for their work in providing education for handicapped children. All Deputies and parents throughout the country are grateful for the wonderful work carried out by the religious orders and the lay people. Their job is not easy, it requires dedication and expertise. I should like to mention, in particular, the Irish Sisters of Charity who run a school in their orthopaedic hospital in my constituency, the Holy Faith nuns and the Sisters of Mercy who do wonderful work. I have seen the religious orders carrying out their work and no greater tribute can be paid to them than to say that no other group could do their work with such efficiency and dedication.

It is not for us to discuss in detail here the increased number of road traffic accidents in which many children suffer limb and head injuries. Statistics in the United States indicate that before a child reaches the age of 12 years the chances are two to one that he will be involved in a road traffic accident and that he will suffer a head injury which can result in brain damage.

There is an increasing number of mentally sub-normal children being born, and also an increasing number of normal children who are affected as a result of accidents or diseases. It is opportune to mention here the cases of those who suffer from spina bifida, hydrocephalus and cysticfibrosis. Voluntary associations have been set try to bridge the gap between the Department of Education and the child in the home.

Today there was the annual general meeting of the Irish Epileptics Association. We have not available here the statistics relating to those who suffer from epilepsy. We have not a treatment centre, yet one of the recommendations the association will make is that a treatment centre be set up. If the Department of Health do this the Department of Education should attempt to set up a special school for the education of children suffering from epilepsy. Incidentally, the association are attempting to change the term "epilepsy" to that of "syncope" in order to get rid of the old stigma attached to the word "epilepsy".

When the child reaches the age of 15 or 16 years the problem can be seen at its worst. Irrespective of where the child receives his education, whether it be privately, with a religious order or under the auspices of the Department of Education, the problem arises in placing the child in society. Here the greatest gap exists in our educational system and it should be bridged quickly in any solution we attempt to find for the education of the handicapped child.

In industry a certain percentage of places should be allotted to handicapped children. It is not sufficient to provide some form of education or skill without having co-ordination and collective responsibility between the Department of Education and the Department of Industry and Commerce. A scheme should be worked out so that when the child is educated to a certain level in a particular skill the people in authority can know where vacancies exist, how many vacancies there are and what are the chances of the child being employed in constructive employment. This can be very important for children who suffer from any incapacity. They need to feel that they are doing the job as well as the next, that they are making progress at school as well as the next. They need to feel that they are good at the subject or subjects that are being taught. We must get rid, as well as we can of the stigma of the word "handicapped".

In my constituency we can see the work that is being done by the Central Remedial Clinic. We can see the results in the homes. I should like to know how much money the Department are giving to the Central Remedial Clinic. I should like to know why a special fund-raising committee had to be set up to keep the clinic going, to keep functioning a clinic which was training and educating handicapped children.

The Deputy is getting away from the Estimate. These are not matters for the Minister for Education. They are matters for the Minister for Health.

With due respect, if the education of handicapped children does not come under the Department of Education, I must be in the wrong House.

The Deputy is discussing fund raising for the Central Remedial Clinic.

In discussing fund raising for the Central Remedial Clinic, I am discussing the fact that there should not be any need for fund raising for the education of handicapped children. The Department of Education should supply sufficient funds to enable handicapped children to be educated without having to have so many flag days and charity walks and without different fund-raising committees having to be set up.

Last year we had the announcement that the Irish Epileptics Association were to get a grant of half the annual pay of one social worker per year towards their educational policy. That type of thing is not relevant. It does not carry any weight with me. This problem should be tackled radically and with courage by the Government. It has been there for long enough. It has been swept under the carpet for long enough. It should be approached in a realistic way.

Any handicapped child who is going on to take the leaving certificate should not have to do compulsory Irish. He should be exempted from it. God only knows the trials and tribulations of having to study under adverse circumstances, without having to study compulsory Irish, the curriculum of which changes from year to year, the spelling of which is subject to change, and the pronunciation of which varies from school to school.

To my mind, compulsory Irish is holding back many children, particularly those children resident in Dublin city and county. Compulsory Irish has been murderous from the point of view of the revival of the Irish language. The Fianna Fáil Government have undertaken a kamikaze operation in regard to compulsory Irish and the Irish language revival movement. Compulsory Irish has killed the love of the language in many children at a very early age. It is a difficult language to learn. If it is a learned properly there are many financial benefits to be gained from it. If it is not learned properly the child cannot receive a full certificate at the end of his secondary school education. In your second year in medical school if you do not pass Irish you are not allowed to go on to take your degree.

The policy of compulsory Irish in the city of Dublin needs to be revised. On the one hand, the Government are attempting to go into Europe. They are attempting to make students familiar with European languages. On the other hand, many hours of primary and secondary school education are taken up with compulsory Irish which has shown itself over the years to be non-productive from the point of view that it has not aided or abetted the revival of the Irish language. In fact, the opposite is true. It has helped to kill the Irish language, particularly in the city. I have seen children who were frustrated in their education because they could not come to grips with the Irish language. I have seen parents who were frustrated with regard to their children's education. They knew it was being adversely affected by the way Irish was being, and I quote, "shoved down their necks by the Department of Education."

I cannot stress too strongly that the party of which I am a member are 100 per cent behind the revival of the Irish language, but we are not 100 per cent behind the compulsory revival policy which has been pursued by Fianna Fáil governments. One has only to look at the figures. One has only to look at the number of children who can speak it fluently to see that compulsory Irish has not resulted in the revival of the Irish language. Compulsory Irish should be dropped from the curricula of all Irish primary and secondary schools next year, and the language should be given a chance to be revived because of the love the Irish people have for it. The language should not be killed by the forced learning of poems and essays and proverbs to get a child through an examination.

In secondary schools in this city we have experienced the drilling and the learning by heart of different sections of the Irish curriculum, and of playing the odds to get sufficient marks to get the leaving certificate or the matriculation certificate. How could we possibly hope to revive the language when 77 per cent of the pupils are in classes of 40 and more? How could we hope to teach any subject successfully, let alone a difficult subject like Irish, and to get the optimum results, with such over-crowding? The statistics show that 77 per cent of the children are in classes with more than 40 pupils. This is not education. This is the herding of children into classrooms, the progress through a curriculum, the marking of the roll, with a certain amount of recreational time, and then back home. Teachers in national schools in the city of Dublin will tell you that they have too many pupils in their classes to be able to cope adequately with them, to be able to cope as they would like to cope with them, and to be able to teach them on the basis on which they would like to be able to teach them.

The policy of education pursued in the city of Dublin is not at all satisfactory to my mind. There was a time in this city when a child could go to a national school at the age of four years. Now the age limit has been increased to five years in my constituency because the classes are so crowded. It is not unrealistic to suggest that in time it might be raised to six years of age. I have a 4½ year old daughter who is very intelligent and I cannot find any place in a school for her. I could afford to send her to a private school. Why should I because I have money, or if I had money, be able to have extra educational facilities for my daughter when those around me are dependent on the national school and are unable to get their children into a school until they reach five years of age? It is not a good thing to have a child of four to 4½ years pottering around the house all day with little or no extra stimulation for the imagination. That is a very important year in the formation of a child's mind.

I would think that the overcrowding which exists, to the degree that it exists, is of a criminal nature from the point of view that it is merely seen that education is taking place in the national schools in this city when, in fact, we know, the parents know, the teachers know, that education is not taking place as it should take place in the national schools.

I want to move to a particular aspect of education which has created quite an amount of controversy since the Minister first made his announcement. I refer to community schools. What the Minister might do or might feel he wants to do in the case of new school buildings is largely a matter for the Minister, the local authority, the parents, the teaching orders and the lay teachers who are involved. With regard to areas which have been statistically worked out by his Department to come under an official board of management and to be taken over by the Department of Education, that is not the best solution. Instead of community schools being forced into existence where individual schools exist there should be a policy of a community of schools whereby facilities available in one school would be made available to the pupils of the other, where recreational facilities, such as a swimming pool, available in one school would be made available to the other, where scientific laboratories in a boys' school would be made available at certain hours to the pupils of a girls' school, where facilities in technological schools would be made available to other schools, and that this would be left to the managers of the various schools to work out in practice.

The question of handing over property to religious orders or of religious orders handing over property to the Government is a matter that has been exaggerated to an unfair degree. Certain people have attempted to imply that the religious orders were reluctant to hand over positions as school manager or as educationalists to lay teachers. This is not at all the case. There are many religious orders, the Holy Ghost Fathers, Jesuits, Carmelites, Christian Brothers, Spanish nuns, as in Finglas, who would gladly and willingly hand over the management of the school curriculum and teaching programme to lay teachers. But there are many aspects of school administration which take up a good deal of time. Providing that the lay teacher was willing to spend the extra hours, sometimes on Saturday and Sunday, sometimes involving the burning of midnight oil, in management work, I do not think the religious orders would have much objection. That is my view from consultations I have had with them in regard to handing over the management of secondary schools to lay teachers.

I want again to point to the dedication and achievements of religious orders in the field of education, not only in this country but on the missions. The first order that comes to mind is the Holy Ghost Fathers. Every Deputy knows the wonderful work they do at Rockwell College, St. Michael's, Blackrock College, Templeogue, St. Mary's Rathmines, and also on the missions. For many years this has been the best contact this country has had with other countries. We have the reputation of being the island of saints and scholars. Religious missionaries have shown their enthusiasm for education. I wonder does the Minister acknowledge the full extent to which parents and students have depended upon religious orders for their education.

It would be most unwise to advocate any change in the present system because secondary school education has not as yet been proved to be intolerable, the religious orders have not been shown to be lacking in ability to educate. I would leave well enough alone. Otherwise, the Minister may have the education of many students thrown back to his responsibility.

I should like to say a word or two about a matter that the Minister did not mention in his introductory statement, namely, the National Council for Sport. In July, 1969, the Taoiseach set up a fund of £100,000 to be distributed in such fashion as would stimulate the development of sport. At that time, while welcoming the £100,000 and the recognition of the need for a more organised approach towards the provision of recreational facilities, I condemned the smallness of the provision.

Last night I was browsing through some statistics and I find that, for instance, the amount of money which has been spent by successive Fianna Fáil senior and junior Ministers in sending Christmas cards to their constituents approximates to the amount allocated for sport in 1969. It works out at something less than 2p per child per year. Therefore, I would appeal for an increase in the provision for the stimulation of sporting activities. They should increase this figure to a realistic level which I think, at the very least, would be £500,000 this year. What, in fact, is being given for the stimulation of sport all through the country is little more than the cost of the new swimming pool on the Mellowes Road, Finglas West, £136,000.

The swimming pool which will be provided, as announced earlier at Ballymun, will also cost £136,000. I am in the fortunate position in regard to sport that I am able to announce to my constituents through the Dáil that before the year is out they will have two full-size Olympic swimming pools.

This is not dealt with on Education.

When we have a National Council for Sport set up by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education, anything relating to sport is appropriate to this Estimate.

The Chair could not agree with that interpretation. Provision of swimming pools is a matter for the Minister for Local Government.

On 5th August, 1971, when speaking on the Adjournment debate in regard to recreational facilities, I was told by the Chair that it was the responsibility of the Department of Education. While I may have referred to it briefly on the Department of Local Government Estimate, the debate in which recreational facilities must be referred to is the debate on the Estimate for the Department which is responsible for providing sporting facilities.

The Chair does not wish to argue with the Deputy but the provision of swimming pools is a matter for the Minister for Local Government.

The statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education on 24th February, 1972, which refers to a prototype plan for recreational facilities mentions swimming pools. If the Parliamentary Secretary is allowed to mention the prototype recreational centres which will involve swimming pools I do not see why I, in contributing to this debate, should not be allowed to mention swimming pools.

The Chair recollects the Parliamentary Secretary mentioning it as something that would be done by or referred to the Department of Local Government.

The Chair is undoubtedly correct in his decision, but I am referring in a general way to recreational facilities for physical education which is the responsibility of the Department of Education. If I am not right in that I shall have to sit down.

The Chair will not dispute that with the Deputy except in so far as the provision of swimming pools is not a matter for the Department of Education. If the Deputy wishes to refer to physical education that is a matter appropriate to this Estimate.

As regards the physical education of the boys and girls of my constituency I should like to make my constituents aware that in West Finglas they will have a 25 metre swimming pool before the end of the year. As regards the stimulation of physical activity in Ballymun I can also tell my constituents that with the help of Deputy Clinton and Deputy Belton we have procured plans, finance and a site for a £136,000 swimming pool and spectator accommodation for 150 people in Ballymun satellite town. I feel sure these swimming pools were not provided without the advice and support of the Minister for Education and I thank him for anything he did in this regard. The Government have always said they have collective responsibility which means there is co-operation between Departments. Here, we have a case where the Department of Local Government and the Department of Education have co-operated. The National Council for Sport will be very pleased to hear that two Olympic size pools are being made available in my constituency before the year is out.

Further, as regards sports facilities in my constituency, we have four new football pitches and a new handball alley on Mellowes Road. The new community centre was built at Mellowes Road with 1/- weekly collections from the tenants of West Finglas who number 35,000. The centre now has one of the most active gymnasia in Dublin city. One need only visit the centre to see the result of the £800 granted to it last year by the Department of Education for gymnastic equipment. On any Monday, Wednesday or Friday night one can see hundreds of children participating in healthy, athletic activity.

All this was accomplished because the people of West Finglas were determined to provide themselves with a gymnasium-cum-community centre. On behalf of the people of West Finglas I thank the Minister and his Department for the £800 grant following my representations. I sincerely hope their application for funds this year will be considered on its merits and that they will get a further grant of at least the same amount as last year.

Great credit is due to the members of the National Council for Sport who are all voluntary. I think they should draw up a prototype plan which could be priced on a package-deal basis for every local authority and every type of school. I can envisage such a plan comprising a 25 metre pool, a 25 metre gymnasium, three or four squash courts and handball alleys built, perhaps, on the Barna or some other such system and costing about £45,000. It is not sufficient for the Parliamentary Secretary to refer merely to prototype plans. He should give details of the plans envisaged. I hope that in summing up the Minister will not omit the question of sport as he did in his brief. The Parliamentary Secretary rushed in in an effort to fill the gap in his speech.

I would like to have more details as to the position of youth officers in the suburban areas of Dublin and in the various parts of the country. I should like more information, too, regarding the regional council of sport that has been suggested by the National Council for Sport. I would advocate the carrying out of a survey within the Department of Defence for the purpose of ascertaining what recreational facilities are available within their ambit and which could be used by students of primary, secondary and vocational schools and by various organisations and groups in the city and country. On the verge of my constituency there is a section of the Department of Defence in which there are three handball alleys but no member of the Albert College of Agriculture can obtain permission to play handball there during breaks. Most of these students are from the country and are very interested in handball.

I might mention here the wonderful work that has been done by the Handball Association in sponsoring the handball championships. Following representations made by me two handball alleys were built. One of these was at Finglas but, unfortunately, it was built under the old system and does not conform with new designs although its measurements may be all right for international matters. The other was built at Kilbarrack and it, too, was built under the old system. Perhaps this indicates a lack of consultation between the Department of Local Government and Education. I should like to know whether there is a member of the Irish Handball Association on the National Council for Sport. I do not think there is because if that had been the case, handball alleys built recently would have been built in accordance with the new design laid down by the World Handball Championship Association.

On many occasions here I have raised the question of these facilities. The Department of Education should recognise that handball is one of the most relaxing games that any student can play. At UCD where a high proportion of the students are from rural areas there have never been any facilities for this game. That is something that amazed me during my time there as a student. Although a great politician of the past is Chancellor of that University, no facilities have been provided for handball, this game which originated in this country and spread throughout the world. This is a scandalous situation and one that I hope will be remedied in the near future.

I do not know where the new College of Physical Education is to be sited but I understand that there have been applications from 2,500 students for the first year. Deputy Coughlan inferred that it is to be built in Limerick but there was no reference to this in the Parliamentary Secretary's speech. Perhaps the Minister could tell me where the college is to be located.

In Limerick.

Although I have been keeping my ear to the ground, it is obvious that Deputy Coughlan has more information than I on the matter. I suggest that all students who are selected for admission to this college will be given the 100 per cent grant to cover living accommodation and fees. It is important, in particular, that they get a grant towards their accommodation because those of us who have been at university are aware of the malnutrition of many students while they are trying to budget their money. Because of the high fee and the cost of books and also the rents of bedsitters and flats which, we all know, are astronomical, students have to cut down on food expenses. I suppose we may take it that rents for accommodation in Limerick will be astronomical also when the students go there because students at higher education level are not always the easiest to cater for. They can be very high-spirited which, of course, is only natural. A boy of 18 years of age setting out on an intensive course of physical education should have sufficient funds to ensure that he does not have to go on a bread-and-tea diet which is the sort of diet that many students at university are on at the moment. The ideal situation would be one in which living-in accommodation was provided. Living on the campus is an intrinsic part of university education. I am glad Limerick is getting a higher centre of learning. It justly deserves it. For too long students from Limerick have been victimised because of the heavy expenses their parents have had to meet in order that their children might get a university degree or diploma in Galway, Cork or Dublin. I know when I was at university we all had the greatest sympathy with these undergraduates.

The cost of maintaining a student in Dublin at the moment is astronomical. It is prohibitive for anyone in Limerick, unless he is extremely welloff, to send children to a higher centre of education in Dublin, Cork or Galway. Because of that, the concept of free education for all and of equal opportunity for all is negatived. Not only will fees have to be paid by the State and books and travel facilities provided by the State, but some form of maintenance grant will also have to be given to students attending higher centres of learning away from home. In years gone by Trinity College provided living accommodation on the campus. That was the ideal situation. The number of students has now increased so much that living accommodation on the campus cannot be provided for all of them. A hostel is being built at Belfield. I trust a hostel will also be built in Limerick. The Department of Defence give a very liberal allowance indeed to cadets taking degrees in Galway University and the Department of Education might take a close look at these allowances.

The National Youth Council has been praised by the National Sports Council. The National Youth Council have done wonderful work both in Dublin and throughout the country. They have succeeded where others failed. They help the aged, the poor and the homeless as well as stimulating worthwhile activities amongst the youth. The appointment of full-time youth organisers in suburban areas, working hand-in-hand with the different associations in the area, will be a great step forward. Only those who operate in the field of public service appreciate the hardships and the difficulties suffered by the underprivileged in this city. There are parts of the city which must be the worst slums in Europe. The children go to school from the slum dwellings and the education they receive in the school is negatived by the environment to which they return every evening.

A new detention centre is being provided in Finglas West to replace Marlborough House. The latter has been condemned for many years by Dublin Corporation and was only kept standing because it was battened with wooden posts. I hope Finglas West will get priority in the appointment of a full-time youth officer. In that way it will be possible to integrate children from broken homes who run foul of the law into the life of a normal community. The results Finglas West have achieved as a community are there to be seen. These boys from the new detention centre can be integrated into the gymnastic classes, the swimming, the football teams and the various other sports catered for in that area. That can best be done by the appointment of a permanent full-time youth officer.

The Department of Education have fallen down on the job of encouraging sport. Deputy Molloy, as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education at the time, was given charge of the new section set up to administer the £100,000 provided for this laudable purpose. There was no special canvass to discover who was interested primarily in sport and who would best serve the section because he had that particular qualification. Apparently some 40 civil servants were appointed to this section. There were obviously no very bright ideas forthcoming from the section and so the Minister circularised sporting associations and asked them how he could spend this £100,000. The result was the £100,000 was chopped up into little bits and the little bits were handed out to different sporting organisations. This, of course, was of very little benefit. Indeed, the £100,000 itself would only cover the cost of the Christmas cards sent out by Fianna Fáil Ministers during the past 15 years. Such organisations as An Oige, the Inland Fisheries, the different shooting clubs, the coursing clubs, the hunting clubs, mountain climbing, adventure sports, the Boy Scouts of Ireland, Gasoga Caitoilicidhe na hÉireann, na Fianna scouts, the gliding clubs, swimming associations, sailing clubs, sailing schools, particularly that in Baltimore, the Handball Association, which acquitted itself so well in sponsoring the world handball championships last year—all these associations have shown their ability and have proved themselves capable administrators of their different organisations.

We have a mongrel-type department of sport; we should, to my mind, have a full department of sport, a full Ministry of Sport, Recreation and Environment. I called for the setting up of a Ministry of Sport 18 months ago and the response I got was the National Council for Sport. That in itself is progress and I am grateful to the Taoiseach for giving his junior Minister that bit of authority. I will not be happy until I see a full Ministry of Sport as other European countries have. Sport, recreation and environment go hand in hand. How often have we seen sporting amenities being spoiled by the Department of Local Government giving planning permission to a factory to throw its refuse in a particular area? How often have we seen a river polluted and rendered useless for canoe races and fishing? How often have we seen the drinking water in camp sites for boy scouts, which hitherto provided excellent facilities, polluted by the effluent from local authority housing estates or factories set up with planning permission?

We have a great need for a full Ministry of Sport and Environment and there is nobody in this House or in the country who would condemn this concept. Many people have called for a Ministry of Environment and a Ministry of Sport and a combination of the two is practical. They are interwoven in their function of the protection and provision of recreational facilities. We have many low-cost sports in this country which provide us with an international reputation as sportsmen. We saw last year in Madrid the Irish Amateur Boxing Team achieving a very high standard of athletic performance in the European boxing championships and we have only seen the very tip of our athletic ability, our sporting ability, in the field of international competition. I know many cases of athletes from working class areas in Dublin who could carry on their athletic activities and compete internationally, if provision should be made, as it is made in Great Britain, whereby they will not suffer a loss of income in relation to their jobs or be sacked when they go abroad to represent this country in international sport.

Some provision for this should be made in the coming winter, particularly as we are now in the year of the 1972 Olympics, and the 1972 Olympics will be the yardstick by which we can judge this new section of the Department of Education. We are not going to be able to judge it by the number of medals the Irish Olympic team bring back but we can quite rightly and correctly judge it by the number of participants this country sends to the Munich Olympics and the sailing Olympics at Kiel. We are not a country which participates in winter sports but we are an island surrounded by ports, an island where there is a sailing club in practically every port, which competes at interclub level. We are a country which has one of the best sailing schools down in Baltimore, but in order to get that established, they had to work hand in hand with the French. Anybody who is interested in sport should pay a trip to Baltimore where he will see the wonderful provision made by this club for training teenagers in the arts and skills of sailing. At the same time as this school training association was set up, we had the Minister for Finance coming in here and committing a deed for which I will be a long time in forgiving him, when he raised the tax on yachts up to 33? per cent. This at one stroke killed the sport of sailing in this country.

The Chair would point out for the information of the Deputy that he has been referring to a Ministry of Sport which would require legislation. The Chair has allowed the Deputy to go some little distance, but he may not advocate legislation on an Estimate. The Deputy is confined to the administration of the Department by the Minister and is not permitted to range at large over adjacent subjects.

In speaking of the responsibility of the Department in regard to sport. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary was very upset when he saw in relation to the sport of sailing, in which the National Council for Sport are very interested, the stimulating of this natural amenity around our coast, inland sailing and sailing on the sea, another Department of State, showing a lack of co-operation between different Departments, knock that sport on the head with massive taxation. We are coming up to the Kiel Olympics where the Irish Sailing Association will be sending a team and I say that the action of the Taoiseach in giving the Department of Education in July, 1969 a certain responsibility was either an empty political gesture or a realistic deed. To my mind, it was an empty political gesture—£100,000 in 1969. And what this year? Little more than the cost of one swimming pool. How can the lower paid section of our community participate in these recreational facilities when on the one hand they are being priced completely out of the market, out of the sport——

The Chair cannot permit the Deputy to go any further on that theme. The Chair has been lenient enough with the Deputy in regard to the matter but at this stage the Chair is informing the Deputy that we are concerned with the administration of this Estimate during the year which ends on the 31st of this month.

It is obvious to me that the responsibility of the Department of Education with regard to sport has been overlooked by this House, by the Minister in his opening statement, and by spokesmen for the different parties. Either the Department have responsibility for sport or they have not. If we have a National Council for Sport they will be interested in the way in which the current amount of money allocated for sport will be spent. They must be interested in the amount of money that will be given to subsidise the training of our Olympic team for the sailing events at Kiel and also for the athletic, boxing and field events that will be held at Munich.

If this is not the case my concept of the Parliamentary Secretary's responsibilities and my interpretation of the speeches made by people in Fianna Fáil are wrong. If the National Council for Sport are merely a political tool of Fianna Fáil they will not be long in disbanding. Legislation provided for the allocation of money to the National Council for Sport through the Parliamentary Secretary. If I cannot discuss the Olympic Games, the training facilities and the sports participated in by Irish athletes under an Estimate which covers the National Council for Sport something is wrong and I think the judgment of the Chair in this regard is defective.

Of course the Deputy is free to criticise the Chair, but the Chair maintains its own view on these matters.

May I discuss something that will take place in July?

We are concerned with an Estimate that ends on 31st March, 1972.

Then the Parliamentary Secretary was obviously out of order in discussing the COSAC week in July but I shall not make any comment on it because I will be out of order. I should like to see as many people as possible participate in COSAC week which has been arranged through the National Council for Sport. I should like to see greater co-operation between the Department of Education through the National Council for Sport and the armed forces. Those of us who have an interest in sport have thought that the armed forces were not given the proper stimulus necessary to encourage them to come up to international level. The National Council for Sport can provide this stimulus.

We know what the Garda Síochána did in the past in international rowing and boxing events and I am sure the Army could participate in international sports, apart from cross-country running and show jumping. We will judge the success of the National Council for Sport and the activities of the Parliamentary Secretary not only on the COSAC week in July, 1972, but on the number of participants who go to the Munich Olympic Games. Great credit is due to the GAA, the Football Association of Ireland, the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, the BLE Association, the Rugby Football Union, the Handball Association and the Association of Outdoor Sports, An Oige and the other organisations who cater so well for sport. I have seen at local level the wonderful spirit that is built up and the recreational facilities they have provided without any burden on the State. I know of the many members for whom they cater, again without any burden on the State.

We should re-appraise the situation with regard to sport. We should give serious consideration to expanding the scope of activities of the National Council for Sport, of providing them with legislative power and not just have them as an advisory body to the Parliamentary Secretary. It is appropriate to give them credit for the work they have done to date and to wish them the best of luck with the arduous task ahead of them. The prototype plan, on which I hope the Minister will elaborate, and the possibility of more money being made available, are matters which should be dealt with by the Minister. I should like him to refer to the fact that his Department have responsibility for the administration of this money for the stimulation and co-ordination of sport.

I should like to refute immediately the insult which the previous speaker has offered to the integrity of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education and to those members of the National Council for Sport, of whom he has been so critical——

This is not in order. I did not offer any insult to the National Council for Sport; in fact I praised them for their work.

The Deputy insulted the integrity of the 20 members——

That is a lie. The Parliamentary Secretary should not bring lies into this House.

The Deputy has insulted these 20 members, notwithstanding the fact that here are a group of people who come together on a regular basis in order to consult about the future of sport. As one who is closely associated with a number of sports groups, not least in the city and county of Dublin, I can inform the House that the National Council for Sport are functioning extraordinarily well. Out of a membership of 20 or 25 persons, not less than 18 or 19 are present at every meeting and this is a wonderful tribute to them. I accept entirely the criticism that the moneys made available to this council are not altogether adequate but it is fair to point out that the council were set up in 1969 and at that time the £100,000 given was a fair indication of the future intentions of the Government in relation to sport generally. The unfair criticism offered to these excellent people, and to the concept generally, by Deputy Byrne is a very humiliating attempt to denigrate people working on a voluntary basis.

I did not denigrate them.

The Deputy must allow the Parliamentary Secretary to continue.

I will not allow him to malign me.

The Parliamentary Secretary must be allowed to make his statement.

It is an indication of the total lack of integrity on those benches over there. The Parliamentary Secretary is trying to malign me. I had nothing but praise for the members of the National Council of Sport who are all voluntary workers.

The Deputy must resume his seat.

The record will show that. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will come in here and retract what he has said.

I am interpreting Deputy Byrne's interpretation of the views expressed on this side of the House. In his own warped fashion he analysed the views of the Fianna Fáil Party. It is fair for me to express my condemnation of the views expressed by him.

(Interruptions.)

Am I to have the privilege of free speech in this House or am I not?

So long as you tell the truth and do not try to put words in my mouth that I did not use.

Deputy Byrne must cease interrupting.

I will cease interrupting if he gives the facts.

The Deputy will not be allowed to interrupt again. If he does the Chair will have to ask him to leave the House.

I want to thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for protecting my right to free speech in this House.

Free, but not honest.

The Deputy's attempt to supress my right to free speech in this House is to be condemned. It was an hysterical intervention based on my exposure of the Deputy's unfair condemnation of what I consider to be an excellent body of people and an excellent organisation, the National Council for Sport. We have to get our priorities right. I agree that sport is a very important priority in terms of the nation's health. A healthy nation, so the cliché goes, is a wealthy nation. I accept that, but I am entitled to protect the good name of these people who have been serving with honour, integrity and dignity on a free and voluntary basis on the National Council for Sport. It is a tribute to the work being done by them that in the city of Dublin we have Olympic games organised on a residential association basis. This did not exist before and it is to the credit of the organisation that they recognise the necessity for activities of that kind. Deputy Byrne offered unfair and mean criticism of these people and of the whole concept.

We have in this country what I call "the knockers within". We have enough knockers without the country but we also have knockers within the country. We seem to have a great capacity, as a nation, for running down one another and for running down our own institutions. At this time in our history we should pull ourselves up by our shoe-straps, as it were, in the intellectual and philosophical sense, and stand up for one another. We should stand up for the idea of Ireland, instead of giving the enemies without the opportunity to use our own expressions of view in relation to given institutions as fodder against ourselves. This is the time to say that. We have the knockers within and the knockers without, and the enemies within and the enemies without. This country has suffered enough from people within who are anti-everything. This is why I get so annoyed when I hear Deputy Byrne expressing a point of view against a grand organisation.

Many organisations have received small sums of money, I agree, since 1969 to support them. Many organisations around the country appreciate the moneys, however small, which have been given to them to help them to attain their objectives. That has happened since 1969. Could we not give credit where credit is due? I have no doubt that there are other Deputy Byrnes in the country who lend support to my theory of the knockers within and without. He is one of the knockers within and he should be ashamed of himself.

I did not intend to detain the House at any length. I had intended to make a short contribution on the subject of the community schools and the Minister's standard of integrity on this whole issue. He has been consistent on the issue of community schools and this is to his credit. I do not believe in sycophancy and I do not believe in giving credit where credit is not due. On this issue I give credit where it is due. I do not think I have the reputation of being a person who goes around tipping his hat to people just because they happen to be in given places. I will be as critical as the next, but a great deal of credit is due to the Minister for his stand on community schools.

There is one Dublin county councillor—I expect I cannot mention him because he is a close relation of mine —who supports the Minister in his stand on community schools. I do not want to go too near the familial bone but, nevertheless, it is fair to say that he is one man who in this whole controversy stood up honourably and was counted in the context of the Minister's own stand. A leader writer in some national newspaper, which I cannot quite remember at the moment, said that the Minister did not give a lead on this issue and other issues. If his stand on the community schools cannot be described as leadership, I would not know how it can be described.

The real tragedy in this case was the attitude of the Opposition parties. Their performance was tragic to say the very least of it. Whatever we can describe ourselves as, I would hope that we could describe ourselves as non-sectarian. One of the foulest allegations made against this party and the Minister in the community schools controversy was an allegation of sectarian bias. I have had the privilege of representing the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown since April, 1965. This constituency has a very large number of people who are not Catholics. For almost seven years now I have had the privilege of representing all sections of the community and I have never had one complaint against the Fianna Fáil Party of sectarianism. We might be accused of a lot, but please do not accuse us of sectarianism because that accusation is not true.

The most hurtful suggestion you could make against any political party in this part of the country is that they are sectarian. In the past 50 years there have been isolated incidents in which it could be suggested that there was sectarianism but, in the main, we have not got a bad record in that connection. In fact, we bend over backwards, and rightly so, to show a lack of bias to any section of the community in that context. The Opposition parties do not seem to be able to make up their minds as to what policy they have in relation to community schools and the future development of postprimary education.

In the first instance, you had Deputy FitzGerald oscillating from, apparently, wholehearted acceptance of the idea of community schools to a completely defeatist attitude, the impossibility of realising it in the practical situation in which we find ourselves. He floundered around in most unusual fashion. He made a number of accusations which were totally without foundation. It only served to show his own lack of familiarity with the reality of the situation.

He accused the Catholic bishops of attempting to take over the religious secondary schools and was sharply rebuffed by the religious themselves for this piece of fanciful nonsense. He then dropped that particular accusation like a hot potato but persisted in propagating the notion that the Catholic bishops wanted to take over the vocational schools. Cardinal Conway has recently given the lie to that accusation.

I felt that quite a number of his colleagues were not associating themselves with him. He is spokesman for the Fine Gael Party on education and on many other things. I am getting quite confused as to what exactly is his front bench ministry, he speaks on so many subjects at such great length, with apparent erudition. So, I am just assuming that he is the spokesman on education. When he finally plucked up the courage to issue a policy statement the best he could do was to try to placate as many of the institutional interests as possible by producing a hotchpotch which went a bit of the road with everyone without regard to whether anything could be achieved in these circumstances. The only people that he did forget to mention in the context of this fanciful document, this pleasing document, a document which set out to please everyone and did not succeed in doing so—the only people he forgot to mention were the children and of course, in the usual fashion, he studiously avoided any question of the overall cost involved. The most charitable thing that can be said about the statement is that he was forced to accept the lowest common denominator of conflicting views within his own party.

That is the only way I can read this statement from Deputy FitzGerald, for whom I have—let us be fair about it— a respect. He is an extremely able Deputy, energetically able. As for some of his hand-me-down statements, from time to time these are questionable but I give him credit for his extremely energetic and able fashion of putting forward an argument. That cannot be taken from him and it is not my intention to take that from him. As an Opposition Deputy, he does a good job and I hope he will continue to be an Opposition Deputy doing an excellent job for a long time to come.

Would you not like to give him a chance in office?

It is not for me to give him a chance in office. The people of Ireland will judge that in time. I wish him continued health and wellbeing in Opposition for many years. I leave it to the people to decide whether they should have him in office or not. The lowest common denominator of the conflicting views within the Fine Gael Party were accepted and that is produced as a policy document on community schools. There is probably a limit to what Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Clinton will accept. However, that is just a point of view. I hope it is taken in the best possible sense.

I am glad to see Deputy Desmond here because I do not like mentioning Deputies when they are absent from the House.

The Parliamentary Secretary has just spent ten minutes having "a go" at Deputy FitzGerald.

The Deputy is an expert at that and he never prefaces his remarks when having "a go" at anybody. He should not try to impute to me his double standards. Let me continue. The Deputy will have an opportunity of replying. I at all times ensured, when I was mentioning Deputy FitzGerald, that I was in no way personal to him. What I was attacking was his policy statement, full stop. It is not my practice to indulge in Deputy Desmond's personal attacks on people in this House from time to time.

I never attack anybody personally.

My best advice to the Deputy is that he should keep quiet. He ought to be good enough—forgive me—to allow me to conclude the brief contribution which I intend to make on this extremely important Estimate. Deputy Desmond, with the assistance of occasional forays from Deputy Noel Browne and Deputy Justin Keating and, from time to time with the assistance of our friend, Deputy FitzGerald, has sought from the very beginning of this debate to make a sectarian issue of it.

Quite incorrect.

When he found, as he did find, that this was not the card to play, he tried to take credit, in a most unfair fashion, for what emerged eventually which, in my opinion, was the Minister's thinking all along. He was prepared to discuss, to have conversations with various group interests and so on. When he introduced his community school proposal, in the first instance, my personal interpretation of his thinking at that time was that it was at all times subject to revision, subject to adjustment. What finally emerged was the Minister's and it was not as a result of pressure from Deputy Desmond or Deputy FitzGerald who tried to make, and almost succeeded in making, a sectarian issue of it.

Deputy Desmond has done this without making any attempt to understand the attitude of either the Protestants or the Catholic community in this sensitive area. He has chosen to ignore and to misrepresent the views of the Protestant Churches and the efforts of successive Governments to meet these views in a practical and in a realistic way. He and other people have helped to propagate abroad the idea—and here again I talk about the enemy within, within ourselves, within the confines of our own shores—that we discriminate against the Protestant minority in the matter of educational provision, despite the fact that it is accepted and acknowledged by the Protestant Church authorities that the opposite is the case. I can support that proposition because I have been on many deputations with various interests in the context of the community schools matter—I will not say controversy because those who made it controversial are the people who did not want it to succeed and who introduced all sorts of obstacles in an effort—unsuccessful—to prevent the idea coming to fruition.

The tactics adopted by Deputy Desmond were for purely party political purposes, again as I see it, as a purely personal point of view, as all points of view are. For purely party political motives he has done grave damage to the image of this country abroad and has provided a readymade debating point for those Unionist politicians who are finding it extremely difficult to justify real sectarian practices in the Six Counties. This sort of thing is not unlike his party leader's statements over the weekend from the Labour Party conference, packed to capacity—a room holding only ten is packed to capacity when there are ten in it—a euphemism. We will not go into that. Some of his own leader's statements at the Labour Party conference at Wexford were used to considerable effect by the hostile British Press and by the hostile British media. It was wonderful to see an Irish politician in this part of our country attacking the Government and, of course, the British using it to suit their own particular purposes as, indeed, Deputy Conor Cruise-O'Brien's point of view has been used to some considerable effect by the British in the United States of America, against the best interests of this country and against the best interests of what we are trying to achieve, namely, the reunification of the country. It is that type of damage that accusations of sectarianism and the accusations which were made in the context of the debate in relation to community schools do to this nation.

I appeal to Deputies to be very careful about the charges they make having regard to the climate of the times. The community schools controversy is, I hope, now resolved and it is to the Minister's credit that he was not diverted from his path despite all the criticisms flung at him. Despite these he pursued what he considered to be the right course and he has now been proved correct. He can hold his head high on that account. But for Opposition Deputies to take or attempt to take credit for what has emerged as the almost-final community schools policy in the Department of Education is, I think, a lie and a slander on the Minister. They made every effort to subvert it; they did not succeed.

The Opposition have shifted ground so often on this subject that it is an eloquent testimony to the Minister's stand on the matter and I think nobody doubts that these are the Minister's proposals or that future generations of Irish children will have cause to be grateful to the Minister who had the courage of his convictions. And they were his convictions. So many stories emanated from the Opposition in regard to community schools that their efforts became almost farcical in their bid to prevent the proposals coming to light as has now happened. At the time I did not have an opportunity of putting my point of view on record in regard to community schools but I am glad to have done so now even at this late stage and to pay tribute to the Minister.

The most hurtful aspect of the matter —we can all appreciate honest, fair controversy—the most foul accusation against the Minister and consequently against the Fianna Fáil Party was that in some way we were a sectarian party. Nothing is further from the truth. The House has only my word for that. I cannot go into my own family background in the context of being brought up in a community but I was never asked to make a judgment of a person on the basis of his or her religion. I was brought up to believe—and the beliefs of this party are based on the same fact—that you judge a man or woman on his or her merits, his or her achievement as represented by the contribution he or she makes to the community in any situation.

Anybody who thinks that people in this part of the country are judged in the light of their religious beliefs is evil. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I have to continue to repeat that I shall do so because as often as the cry of sectarianism is raised in this House it will be used by what I call the "knockers" without—those who are only too glad to be hostile to us. Statements of that kind reflect badly on the country and it is statements of that nature which are used by our enemies with which to whip this nation and justify their own infamous policy in regard to the areas where they consider they have jurisdiction for the time being. There is no doubt that in the Six-County part of this country for the past 50 years there has been a gross and humiliating form of sectarianism practised through what I would describe as the system of administrative violence. I imagine the British would do anything to justify their being there——

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will not deviate from Education.

It is not on Education.

I have too much respect for the Chair not to return to the subject.

Tell us something about sectarianism in education.

I have just tried to refute the suggestion that there is any question of sectarianism in the context of the Twenty-Six Counties. I am speaking about the area of sectarianism which I believe has existed for 50 years in the north eastern part of the country and which has been used to a tremendous degree by the British as a justification for having their Army present there at this time. It is amazing that they will use anything against us. This is a point of view that I shall not develop in deference to the Chair.

I should mention the school building programme in regard to my own area. People may accuse me of being narrow in this but I am not. We are elected as national politicians but I know that we also have a duty to represent our constituents' point of view. I know the Board of Works are responsible for building these schools but I would strongly urge the Minister to consider a number of points in regard to the constituency I represent, Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown. Of course, I know Deputy Desmond also represents that constituency and that he reflects my point of view.

I was just saying that you were dealing with his constituency.

I would not consider it his constituency or my own constituency. If Deputy Desmond does not understand why he is here, I do, and it is not my constituency or his constituency.

We shall keep a close eye on each other.

A very close eye. Apart from the Tallaght area the Cabinteely part of the constituency is probably one of the fastest-growing areas of the county. We are in dire need of school facilities there. On land which I understand will be reclaimed from a dump the local people are anxious to have comprehensive education facilities established. Subject to correction, I think this is the Ballyogan area and I am most anxious that the Minister should consider it. I had a number of other points to make but, unfortunately, I did not bring my notes. However, I shall make——

Go home for them; there is an hour and a half now.

I am not wasting the time of the House now. I shall have an opportunity at 7.30 to express my views in more detail regarding the educational needs of the constituency I represent.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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