COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 2 May 2024

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The business before us this afternoon is minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business. The first item of business is minutes. The minutes from the meeting of 25 April 2024 have been circulated to members. Do any members wish to raise anything in respect of the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee’s webpage.

Moving on to accounts and financial statements, there are just two sets this week, which have been laid before the Oireachtas between 22 and 26 April. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

First, we have the Environment Fund. This is for the period 1 January 2022 to 30 June 2023, so it is an 18-month account. It is the final account of the Environment Fund and it received a clear audit opinion. The second is the account of the receipt of revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners for 2023, and it received a clear audit opinion. These are the beginning of the 2023 crop of audits coming through, which is welcome.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The size of that-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is extraordinary. The total receipts are €128 billion. That is up from approximately €118 billion the previous year, which is about an 8% increase, which is extraordinary.

An Cathaoirleach

Waterways Ireland again receives a clear audit opinion. Sorry, that was last week. Are there any other questions on the accounts and financial statements? No. Can we agree to note the listing of the accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, accounts and financial statements will be published as part of the minutes.

We will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that are not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in respect of correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee's meetings and published on the committee's webpage. Four items have been flagged for discussion. These are under category B, which is correspondence from Accounting Officers and their Ministers and follow-up to PAC meetings.

The first is No. 2544 from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General of the Department of Justice, dated 19 April. It provides follow-up information requested at the meeting of 29 February 2024. It includes information on immigration, visa processing, international protection, citizenship processing, carrier liability, the Prison Service and the Probation Service. It proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Murphy and I flagged it. Does she wish to comment on it first?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I essentially want to focus on Nos. 2 and 3, which relate to persons under the age of 18. I tabled some parliamentary questions on this but I think it would be useful for the public accounts committee to write to both the Department of Justice and Tusla on the number of referrals to Tusla of persons under the age of 18. There is a narrative that putting information into the public arena is important. There is a narrative around the age of some of the people referred to Tusla and a question mark about whether they are under or over 18. In the context of a large number of children going missing, it is important to nail that down. I think we need to write to both the Department of Justice and Tusla to do that. We should ask the Department of Justice the number of people presumed to be under the age of 18 referred to Tusla in the years, say, 2022, 2023 and to date in 2024 as well as the number that do not transpire to be under the age of 18. We should ask Tusla the same thing but also the number it is aware of who have gone missing.

An Cathaoirleach

I note that the International Protection Office and Tusla are working on the design of a new model to improve the process of managing age assessments. There was a question mark over the fact that some who were claiming to be minors were not minors, but a new process is being put in place for that, and that is to be welcomed. That is supposed to be in place in the coming weeks. It is more than two years since the start of the war in Ukraine. It is two years and three months now and it is a bit concerning that it has taken this long. Nevertheless, it is welcome that it is happening. I note from the letter that some of the Ukrainian minors arriving by air are coming from airports outside of Ukraine. If that is the case, that is the case. I ask we write back to the Department and ask it to take it up with the countries they are coming from. If they are coming from another European country, be Germany, Poland or wherever - I am not sure which countries they are referring to – the Department of Justice needs to take it up with its counterparts in whichever country they are flying out from if they are boarding planes as minors.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wish to make a point on that. In most cases, it will not be possible to fly from Ukraine because of the war.

An Cathaoirleach

There are operational airports in Ukraine. That is my understanding.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Not for civilian traffic.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. That is all right. They are flying from outside the Ukraine. It did not state that but this matter should be taken up with whichever countries they are flying from.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Irrespective, it is very useful to have hard information. When stuff is put out into the arena that is true, that is fine, however, when it is not true, it is important we are able to address it with accurate information.

An Cathaoirleach

It was very clear when it was in here on the numbers of unaccompanied minors arriving and pointed it out that day. It is also important to have procedures in place to deal with this. We are two years and three months into a war. Even at this late stage, it needs to deal with this.

Moving on, No. 2545 from Jonathan Hill, who is now the former chief of executive of the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, dated 8 April, provides follow-up information requested at the meeting of 22 February 2024, including the allocation of Covid resilience and recovery funds administered by Sport Ireland to the FAI in 2020, and specifically a breakdown of the €11 million designated for central costs at the FAI. It is proposed that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Murphy flagged it and so did I. There were 19 grant scheme payments. I am afraid the headline breakdowns are not a comprehensive statement of where the money went, having looked at it. Does the Deputy wish to comment?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It might be worth going back to them and looking for more granular information. It prompted something to me. Sport Ireland and, indeed, the FAI will have some involvement in the running of various elements, including underage. When we spend money on sports capital grants, it is essential we get what is grant aided. That is an area on which we might have to invite the Department. I am aware of a real issue, primarily in south Kildare, with the Kildare underage league. There was a very large sports capital grant and the facility is not being used for what it was grant-aided for. There are strict rules around that. No matter how much I talk to the Department and the Minister on this, I do not think it is being taken seriously. I am concerned that is not an isolated incident. We might put that Department on the list, particularly regarding sports capital grants.

An Cathaoirleach

We can put it to the committee and if it is agreeable, we will bring them in. Thank you.

No. 2559B from Ms Oonagh Buckley, Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, dated 24 April 2024, providing correspondence to the committee in relation to protected disclosures at Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI. It is proposed we note and do not publish this item due to the confidential matters discussed within. No further details are disclosed. There is no great urgency to resolve it. We have the correspondence which members can read and see if they wish to follow up on it again and go back to Inland Fisheries Ireland.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I request that we ask IFI one question? On the McCann FitzGerald investigation, what rank in the organisation is the person who made the protected disclosure? Were they senior management, for example?

An Cathaoirleach

I do not know.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I imagine if it was a junior person that it would be done in house. Can we get them to clarify that, if possible?

An Cathaoirleach

We will ask Ms Oonagh Buckley, Secretary General, to clarify that.

No. 2577 is from Mr. Sam Waide, chief executive officer, Road Safety Authority, dated 30 April 2024, providing a response to the committee regarding an invitation to attend a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. It is proposed we note and publish this item. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Agreed.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh has flagged this item. The letter is basically saying they will not come. I think we need to remind the RSA that it is audited by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is accountable to this committee. The last time it was here was 2018. That is pre-Covid. That is six years ago. It needs to be brought in here and it will come in here. I will ask the secretariat to write back and explain that and outline the line of accountability to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and to this committee. Yes, it will be coming before us. The Accounting Officer, I presume, is Mr. Sam Waide. He needs to be present along with his senior management team. It has been given extra funding and its role has been expanded in recent years. It oversees driver licences and a whole range of activities. It does some good work, but in terms of its accounts and governance, we want to see it before the committee, if members are agreeable.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Absolutely agreeable. I thought the tone of the letter was quite extraordinary.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not acceptable.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

For an Accounting Officer to say they are too busy is just not on. It does not matter that they are in front of other Oireachtas committees. Accountability for their budget is the remit of this committee. I cannot believe a chief executive officer wrote that letter.

An Cathaoirleach

We will do that. Deputy Verona Murphy has indicated.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I did not believe the chief executive officer of the RSA existed because the first time I saw him was on "Prime Time" a fortnight ago. He has ignored numerous email correspondence I have sent too, so I am not surprised by it but I would appreciate that, as a committee, we would ensure the RSA does appear. I am fully behind that too.

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest we have a vacant slot between now and the summer. We will pin it down on the work programme later but we should try to have them in on that vacant slot. It has been notified in good time that the public accounts committee is requesting its attendance as witnesses. With that in mind, we will ask the RSA to appear at our next available slot. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Agreed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Agreed.

An Cathaoirleach

No. R2543 is from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General, Department of Justice, dated 19 April 2024, in response to the committee’s request for an explanation for the later presentation of the 2022 financial statements of the Private Security Authority, contrary to the requirements under circular 24 of 2021. The financial statements were certified on 12 June 2023 by the Comptroller and Auditor General but were not laid by the Department until 15 November 2023, five months later. The Department states the 2022 audited accounts of the Private Security Authority were received by the Department on 6 September 2023 following their sign-off by the board of the Private Security Authority.

According to circular 24 of 2021, the accounts or financial statements of bodies under the aegis of a Department should be presented to the sponsoring Department by each body within one month of the audit certificate on the financial statements and accounts being issued by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The circular states the financial statements of bodies under the aegis of Departments should normally be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas within three months of the Comptroller and Auditor General issuing the audit certificate on the financial statements. The circular also states that if exceptional or unusual circumstances arise which cause an unavoidable delay to a body in submitting its financial statements to the parent Department or a delay to the Department in laying the financial statements of the body before the Houses of the Oireachtas, the clerk to the Committee of Public Accounts should be informed of this by the relevant Department.

It is proposed we write to the Department of Justice to request an explanation as to why the 2022 financial statements were submitted late to the Department, noting the provisions of circular 24 of 2021. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Agreed.

An Cathaoirleach

No. 4 is the work programme. Members have been circulated with a draft work programme discussion document, which is displayed on screen now. Next week, on 9 May we engage with the University of Limerick on the 2022 financial statements. We will be joined by the deputy president, who has been delegated the accountability function in the absence of the president and the chancellor. Representatives of the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science will also attend. Governance and associated due diligence of the university’s purchase of the Limerick city centre site in 2019 and the purchase of a number of houses for student accommodation in Rhebogue have been flagged as areas of interest.

On 16 May, we are due to meet with representatives of the Department of Education-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I go back, please, and ask a question on what we will be able to get to on this issue of the University of Limerick which is causing us all concern? Is an investigation under way into that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I am preparing a report which started out as a review because the KPMG report could not be published. I started looking at the Dunnes Stores acquisition with a view to briefing the committee on what actually happened in that case. We wanted to look at any subsequent major capital acquisition. The Rhebogue purchase was the only one. We have ended up with quite a sizeable section looking at that but there are a number of other investigations of the Rhebogue process which have been undertaken.

Obviously then, there is the whole matter of the Higher Education Authority, HEA, directing that an intensive examination be undertaken of other capital projects.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there no reason or investigation under way which will prevent us from asking all of the questions?

An Cathaoirleach

There is nothing judicial in train.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, but the committee will not actually have the detail of the thing other than what the university can tell it. As I understand it, much of the due diligence for the purchase on Rhebogue was carried out during the period of account that the committee will be examining. The closing date for the actual purchase and deal was October 2023, which even brings it outside of the period of accounts which the committee will be examining.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is a matter, however, which is affecting the audit of 2022-2023.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it delaying it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is holding it up and there is the matter of impairment which has to be determined. Public statements have been made on it by the president where she announced that she anticipated that there would be an impairment. That is a matter which is being examined as part of the audit of the 2022-2023 financial statements.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. McCarthy for that. We will thrash that out next week, hopefully, with the Comptroller and Auditor General in attendance when we will have the Accounting Officer present.

On 16 May 2024 we will meet with the Department of Education on Vote 26. The following areas of interest have been flagged: running costs and demand management for schools; school building programmes; school transport; disposal of assets of the religious orders; and Caranua.

On 23 May we engage with the Department of Defence on Vote 35 – Army Pensions; Vote 36 – Defence; and Chapter 12 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report on stock management in the Defence Forces. The Army Reserve has been flagged as an area of interest.

On 30 May we will meet with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board regarding the 2022 financial statements.

On 13 June we engage with the Office of Public Works, OPW, on Vote 13 – Office of Public Works. The following areas of interest have been flagged: the proposed national children’s science museum project; flood relief schemes; vacant properties in the OPW portfolio; modular housing for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection; and non-complaint procurement.

On 20 June 2024, we will engage with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board in regard to the 2022 financial statements.

On 4 July 2024 we meet with Waterways Ireland in respect of the 2022 financial statements, which we have just discussed earlier.

On 11 July, we meet with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on Vote 30 – Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and Chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Annual Report - Estate management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

We have one slot then left before the summer recess which is the vacant one on 27 June. I would encourage members to perhaps support a proposal that we would request the presence of the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and its Accounting Officer here on that day. It that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is agreed.

An Cathaoirleach

That gives more than adequate notice of nearly two months to the authority for a meeting on 27 June meeting. We will expect to see the authority on that day. I expect everybody is happy with that arrangement.

That concludes consideration of the work programme for today. Is there any other business while we are on the public agenda? No, everyone is happy.

We will move briefly into private session before adjourning until 9 May when we will engage with the University of Limerick. Gabhaim míle maith ag na comhaltaí agus ag ár n-aíonna ar fad.

The committee went into private session at 1.56 p.m. and adjourned at 2.07 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 May 2024.