With regard to the motions for Returns, Nos. 4 and 5 on the Order Paper, I desire to ascertain whether these are opposed. If they are they stand over until to-morrow.
NOTICES OF MOTION. - MOTION FOR RETURN AS TO TIPPERARY ESTATES.
I am opposing No. 4.
I am opposing No. 5.
The motions therefore will stand over until private Deputies' time to-morrow.
Mr. HOGAN
If you, sir, see no reason against it, and if the Deputy and the Dáil are agreeable, I am quite willing to have motion No. 4 discussed to-day.
That is to put the two motions at the end of the Order Paper for to-day and take them if there is time?
Why not take them now?
Mr. HOGAN
I am agreeable, if the Dáil is.
I am agreeable to their being taken now.
I beg to move motion No. 4 as follows:
That a return be presented in respect of the period from August, 1923, to 31st December, 1926, for County Tipperary, showing—
(a) the number of estates acquired by the Land Commission for the purpose of division;
(b) the total number of acres acquired;
(c) the names of the owners of such estates, with any other information necessary for identification, together with the number of acres in each estate;
(d) the price paid by the Land Commission in each case;
(e) the average annuity charged to the tenants in each estate;
(f) contribution by the State towards the expenses of division, etc., in each estate:
(g) estates in regard to which the Land Commission have offered a price to the owner, but which have not yet been acquired;
(h) estates in regard to which a price has been offered, but which the owners have refused to accept, and where an appeal has been made in regard to price to the Judicial Commissioner;
(i) estates in regard to which a price has been offered and where the owner has appealed and the price has been raised by the Judicial Commissioner, with the price offered and the price finally fixed by the Judicial Commissioner in each case.
Mr. HOGAN
I think the Dáil will agree that this is an unreasonable request. I will just read the motion, which I think speaks for itself. (Motion read.) The first observation I have to make is, that while Deputies are entitled to all reasonable information it must be obvious to the Deputy that if he presses for this return and gets it, every other Deputy is entitled to similar information for every county in Ireland. It must be obvious to him what that means. There is a lot of land division going on at present, and the indoor staff of the Land Commission are required for that work just as much as the outdoor staff, as they have to check the work. For the indoor staff to be switched off its proper work to deal with extremely complicated detailed returns for every county in Ireland, as to every estate either in process of division or acquisition in their hands, would be quite impossible. We cannot have land purchase and that work proceeding at the same time without employing a very large number of extra officials, and of course the Deputy will be willing to take all the kudos to be had out of condemning the Department for having big staffs. Equally, if this return is given for Tipperary, Deputies are entitled to get returns for every county in Ireland and these returns will vary over each month of the year.
Take (g): "Estates in regard to which the Land Commission have offered a price to the owner, but which have not yet been acquired"; that might be (a) in two months. Take (h): "Estates in regard to which a price has been offered, but which the owners have refused to accept, and where an appeal has been made in regard to price to the Judicial Commissioner"; that might be up to (g) in a month or two. The position would be that in any month of any year any Deputy or every Deputy could ask the Land Commission for detailed information which would take about half the Land Commission staff to prepare, say, in about a fortnight. If it is to be prepared accurately, that would be out of the question, and I could not possibly agree to it. Moreover, I think the point of view that is enshrined in (h), that is to say, to give full information as to the price and other particulars of a suit that is pending before the Judicial Commissioner and that is being argued before him, is unsound. So far as possible that information should not be given.
The Judicial Commissioner is a High Court judge. The Commissioners themselves are a Court. A case is heard before them the same as a contract case or any other case in the Four Courts. While that case is going on, it is not desirable that it should be canvassed in the Dáil or outside. There is exactly the same argument as to discussion of that kind in regard to a case before the Judicial Commissioner as there is in regard to any other case. The only distinction really is this, that one of those cases is very much more important from the point of view of the owner and the people to be benefited. One of those cases would involve a sum of £10,000 or £15,000, much more than any contract case before the High Court judge, and it is not desirable that they should be canvassed here in the House, and, of course, if here in the House, down the country. A decision in these matters should be given in the same atmosphere as any other legal decision, so that even if the question of time of the staff did not enter into it I would object and I would ask the House to support me in objecting to give out detailed information as to the merits of a case which is sub judice and which actually is being argued.
My point of view about this return is that I feel it is the right of a Deputy from any county to have made available for him all the information which he may require in regard to the working of any Government Department in reference to his county with the exception of any portion which may be undesirable from certain points of view. I find in regard to this matter of getting information, as to estates in my county, that I have the greatest possible difficulty in getting information of any kind from the Land Commission. As a last resort I have to come to the House here and ask a question of the Minister, and then I can get information of some kind. There is a very definite disinclination on the part of the Land Commission to give information to me as a Deputy. I do not know whether the same thing applies to every Deputy, but I have the greatest difficulty in getting any information. I find my letters are not answered. I get an acknowledgment of my letter, but no reply. I wait for weeks and weeks to get an answer.
Considering all the controversy that is arising down the country in regard to certain matters in connection with the working of the Land Act, controversy in regard to the price paid for the land, and controversy as to whether the incoming tenants would be able to pay the annuities placed on them because of the price fixed, there is a great lack of knowledge about the whole matter. I confess myself to a lack of complete knowledge as to what money is spent and how the money is spent, what rents are fixed and how far the Government is contributing towards a settlement of these different estates. I say definitely there is a clear indication on the part of the Land Commission, and perhaps on the part of the Minister, not to give that information. I say that we have that right, and that I have the right to claim that we should get such information. In any democratic institution, in any democratic country, it is the right of a Deputy to get that information if the information is available. I think the Minister could depend on my honour not to make use of any information of that kind that I get for propaganda purposes or for election purposes or for any purposes of that kind. It is not for these purposes I am seeking it at all.
With regard to the time that would be taken up by the Land Commission in preparing the return I ask for, I say that in my opinion, and from any knowledge I have of preparing returns—and I have some—there would not be a great deal of time taken up in the compilation of the return. Most of the items are comparatively simple items, items which any junior clerk in the Land Commission, if the books are placed at his disposal, could supply. If any clerk, not necessarily a junior clerk, had one clear day and had the books available he could get all the information I ask for. In regard to the items, I see there are difficulties as to the item mentioned by the Minister, that is item H. I considered myself, at the time I put it down, whether it was advisable or not to ask for the information. Perhaps it might be a matter for this House to consider whether it is advisable in the public interest that that should be given, but in my opinion it would not do any harm. These things are matters of current public knowledge. When a price is offered to a man and the man rejects it, it usually becomes public knowledge in the locality what price had been offered. I again assert that I have the right to get the return which I am asking for. If the Minister is prepared to meet me in part——
Mr. HOGAN
No.
If he is prepared to give me the information I ask for, with the exception of item H, I will consider his offer, but if he is not prepared to meet me in that way, I will have to ask the House to divide on the motion.
Motion put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 42.
Tá
- Daniel Breen.
- John Conlan.
- Séamus Mac Cosgair.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Patrick McKenna.
- Risteárd Mac Liam.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Tadhg O Donnabháin.
- Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
- Seán O Duinnín.
- Donnchadh O Guaire.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Seán O Laidhin.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
- William A. Redmond.
Níl
- Earnán Altún.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Seoirse de Bhulbh.
- Séamus de Burca.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- James Dwyer.
- Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- Thomas Hennessy.
- Patrick Leonard.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- John T. Nolan.
- William Norton.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Parthalán O Conchubhair.
- Máirtín O Conalláin.
- Liam O Daimhín.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Andrew O'Shaughnessy.
- Seán Príomhdhall.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Liam Thrift.
Tellers— Tá: Deputies Gorey and Wilson. Níl: Deputies Dolan and Sears.
Motion declared lost.