It is proposed to take the business on the Order Paper commencing with item No. 7, Conditions of Employment Bill, to item No. 10, Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill, inclusive. Public business will not be interrupted at 12 noon to take Private Deputies' business. The Dáil will adjourn until Tuesday, the 9th inst., at 3 o'clock. It is proposed that the Dáil sit later than 2.30 o'clock to-day, and that the Order for the Adjournment be taken not later than 12 o'clock midnight.
Motion for Late Sitting.
When is it proposed to-day to take the Finance Bill, item 8?
After the Conditions of Employment Bill.
Will the Minister give any indication as to when the debate on the Conditions of Employment Bill is to finish?
It is hoped to dispose of items 7, 8, 9 and 10 to-day.
By twelve o'clock to-night?
The motion before the Dáil is to sit from 10.30 to-day until 12 o'clock to-night, and to dispose of the Conditions of Employment Bill, the Finance Bill, the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Bill and the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill. No special reason is given for this motion. One would expect that an explanation would be given as to the reasons for asking the House to discharge certain business. There is not one of these items on the Agenda Paper which would be affected by one or two days' earlier or later consideration. It is significant that for hours during the sitting of the Dáil in the past week one single Minister sat on those benches ever there——
And read a book.
It is treating the Dáil with scant courtesy and with disrespect. It shows very little consideration for the business before the House. The Dáil has sat this week since Tuesday and for several weeks past it sat on Tuesdays. It is certainly a great inconvenience for members who have long journeys to make through the country. It is quite obvious that it is not meant seriously as a help to consider or discharge the business set down to-day. Is it likely that after sitting from 3 o'clock each day until 10.30 at night, and in addition having this long sitting to-day, that that sober reflection and consideration which the business of the country demands will be given to it? It is easy enough for the Government to put on one Minister at a time particularly when that Minister devotes none of his time in giving any consideration to any matters down on the Order Paper, and takes no part in the discussion. No complaints could be made or can be made that any time has been wasted in considering any of the Bills that are before the Dáil. The Finance Bill which is at present before the House has at least 100 new items or 100 separate items on which a tax is to be imposed. Surely the country is entitled to know what is the amount of the new impositions and whether they are in accordance with the tariff policy of the Government, or with the alleged tariff policy of the Government, or whether they are purely and simply new taxation. Only in this morning's papers one can read of the extra charges that are being incurred by the Mental Hospital in Cork by reason of the new impositions on the necessaries of life. Generally speaking this proceeding on the part of the Government this morning is characteristic of the entire policy of the Government to do everything in haste and to repent at leisure. There was scarcely a single measure introduced by this Government within the last three years in connection with which they had not to bring in amendments and amending Bills within twelve months and even subsequent amending Bills to these. The legislation or enactments of this House in the last three years are certainly no credit to it. Each Bill is followed by an amending Bill, and very often by a subsequent amending Bill to amend the first amending Bill. There is one measure which deals with farmers and with factory owners, and we have four separate measures which have been rendered necessary by either one or other of these Bills in order to see in what way they might evade the possibility of incurring any of the penalties that have been imposed. To take another instance, we have one Bill on the Order Paper, introduced by the Minister for Finance in connection with investments, and though the Minister got two years and six months in which to make up his mind as to how he would set up an Investment Board, he wants, it appears now, a further extension of time to consider that matter. The whole legislative proceedings since this Government came into office are a disgrace to modern Parliaments. The action of the Government on these matters is characteristic of their whole mentality.
The school-master is vexed, but he no longer has the leather—the leather with which he used to beat the people of this country and especially the political opponents of the Government. That has to be given up, but he can still keep the pupils in. Why are the Deputies of this House to be kept away from their business in the country, having sat here from 3 o'clock on Tuesday until this morning? Because they had the temerity to examine what the Ministers are doing in their Finance Bill this year. Because they had the temerity to take from under the magnificent wrapping of a Budget speech and the jokes of a Budget speech the actual facts of the budgetary proposals. Because they took the Finance Bill in the House and examined it clause by clause and item by item, and they dragged out, so as to make them clear even to Deputies themselves, the implications of it. So much so that not only are the members of the Fianna Fáil Party on the Back Benches absolutely silent in face of the criticism brought against them and the revelations brought out in respect of the sections of this Finance Bill, but Ministers are completely silent too. If they have any reply to make, it is the shout and the roar and the desk thumping of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. All the rest is silence.
We are told the House does not matter. The Minister for Finance can come in here and read his novel quietly on the Front Bench and try to stuff his ears to the facts that are being brought forward for the information of Deputies running an Irish Parliament. Deputies are to be kept here this evening and prevented from going to their homes to look after some of the urgent agricultural business that requires to be done, because they want to discuss the situation that exists in the country and why, in continuing that situation, every household of this country shall be entered into and anyone who has to use coal, butter, bread, bacon, meat, who has to have wallpaper on the walls, linoleum on the floors, glass in the windows, or tea in the tea-caddy, must pay the Government a tax on them. We would like to hear Deputy Flinn——
It would take an hour and a half.
——and some of the glum members of the Fianna Fáil Party on some of these subjects. If they have a case to make it might be possible to shorten the discussion on some of these things. But the whole attitude we have been faced with here is silence on the part of the Minister for Finance, and misrepresentation on the part of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. You cannot get up to discuss a tariff which is being proposed in this Bill that he does not misrepresent the position with regard to the taxation already imposed; that he does not simply fob off anyone who wants to inquire into the position of employment in these industries. The Parliament here has a responsibility and has business to carry out, and Deputies are going to see that it is done within the limits of their power.
The Minister for Finance the other day, when he could not get the Chair simply to get a rubber stamp and to record "absolute majority, two" against each section, told the Chair he would have to consider whether he would stay any longer in the House.
There are other people considering what they will do with the Minister.
We are going to do our business here. It is nearly time that both the Ministers and members of the Fianna Fáil Party would ask themselves what is their business here. When they bring forward financial proposals for the year, it is at least up to them to contribute in some way their opinion of the general condition of things in the country, their opinion as to the amount of money being raised from the people; whether the people can afford, in the present circumstances, to bear that taxation; whether they can afford, in any circumstances, to bear the taxation that is being put on them. Now, with as little explanation and the same silence as we had on the discussions in the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill, they propose a motion that Deputies will be kept here until 12 o'clock to-night. They do not tell us why. They do not tell us the reason for it; they do not examine the length of the Parliamentary programme they want to get through and the time at which they consider the Dáil ought to rise for the Summer Recess. Not a word at all. They simply go through the formula of moving a motion and they just sit there and have it in the back of their minds that, if the Chair will not co-operate with them and destroy this institution by stamping their resolution "absolute majority, two" when a motion is moved, they can wear him down and they can wear the House down and reach the stage at which that absolute majority of two will be stamped on the resolution put before the House.
Ministers talk very much of the type of dictatorship they will not stand for; of the type of dictatorship they will hunt down and trample under foot. But was there ever a dictatorship that wanted to act in the way the Ministry have been wanting to act in the last few days? By means of a rubber stamp they want to have it recorded: "This is to certify that the Fianna Fáil Party have an absolute majority of two in Dáil Eireann." Therefore, what is the use of talking; why not go home and pursue your business; why not devote all the efforts that you can to saving your home and your business and your family from the ruin that is coming on top of you; what do you mean by wasting your time coming up here when they can say "absolute majority, two"? That is the attitude we have been faced with here from the very first moment the Minister for Finance had to come before the Dáil in May last and disclose the financial position of the country and the extremities to which he was prepared to go to remain in the position in which he could simply say: "We have our absolute majority; we are going to carry on." We would like to hear, even at this late hour, from the Ministry what work they propose to do before the Summer Recess, and we would like the President to tell the House what is the attitude of the Executive Council towards this Parliament.
I find this motion rather in keeping with everything that has happened during the past week. I do not think there is anything strange in the Fianna Fáil Party, or the Government, bringing forward this motion. From the way in which they express their opinions, the only way in which they do express them here—inarticulately, it is quite obvious that their whole conception of this Parliament is that it is not a place in which the proposals of the Government can be examined. Every suggestion that the sole business of this Parliament was merely to register, without a tittle of examination, the proposals of the Government was received with a strong voice of approval from the Fianna Fáil Benches this morning. There was nothing reactionary about it in their view. Even Deputy Flinn and Deputy Corry were not let loose. They were kept in the "jug"—I think that is what it was called—or perhaps they were put into cold storage. Even Deputy Corry, as I say, was not loose though he is let loose to-day for the purpose of interruption. Not one single word was uttered in defence of any of the Government taxes by the Minister himself, or by the back benchers, during a whole week. That is what they call the work of Parliament. It is quite obvious from their attitude here to-day that their whole idea is that Parliament shall not be allowed to examine the very disastrous proposal in the way of taxation that the Government have put before the House. Now they come in and ask the House to give them the luxury of sitting here the whole day but with a further refusal to examine any proposition that the Government has to make.
The Party that deliberately tries to abolish the Second Chamber, now deliberately takes up the line that there is to be no discussion in this House. When an effort is made to examine the Minister's proposals he gets into a "pet"—that is the only phrase which applies in the case of the Minister for Finance; and because the Chair refuses to become a blind instrument in his hands, and in the hands of the Fianna Fáil Party, the Minister threatens to leave the House, because the House wants to enter into an examination of the Government's proposals and to carry on discussion in a business-like way it is threatened that the whole Fianna Fáil Party and Ministers will leave. That is the conception of Ministerial responsibility that we get from the particular Government now in office. Why this delay? Why this motion? Was it not because the Government, not merely cannot conduct the affairs of this House —during discussions there were scarcely ever more than three Deputies on the benches opposite——
And two on yours.
The Deputy was not here at all. He was kept absolutely in gaol for the time being. I am afraid he is in bad odour with the Fianna Fáil Party.
Even I could not answer you.
No. The Deputy was kept out of the House. The Deputy might in his unwisdom make a defence of these taxes. The delight of the Party opposite as Deputy Corry says is to pile on taxes. The Minister for Finance finding the Deputy's presence awkward saw that he was kept out of the House. He was hardly ever here. If he were here he might in his rashness have made unwise remarks. We remember his unwise remark that he and his Party were ready to tax everything. After that he was kept out.
On a point of order, I object to Deputy O'Sullivan misrepresenting me in this manner.
That is not a point of order.
On a point of explanation, I want to say that I have been here every day and more often than Deputy O'Sullivan. I only left when I could no longer stand the Deputy.
I am not denying that the Deputy was here. There were several divisions, and the Deputy had to become part of the recording machinery to carry out the orders of the Minister for Finance. The fact is we have an extraordinary lack of responsibility in a country that is still supposed to have parliamentary and democratic institutions. We have the Minister for Finance refusing to take part in the discussion or to defend any of the taxes that we are now asked to facilitate him in imposing on the people. They are moving this motion now not because they want discussion. Certainly not. It is clear from the action of the Minister for Finance and the "pet" he got into, that his idea of an all-night sitting is to stifle discussion. We were threatened that unless we passed these proposals without discussion there would be an all-night sitting. The reason we are now discussing a motion for an all-night sitting is that the Minister wanted previously to have Resolutions imposing heavy duties on the people passed without discussion. Threats were held out to us and one of these was an all-night sitting.
We hope to give you time to talk.
Yes. It is about time we heard that, but most of the taxes have been passed by now so that Deputy Corry and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance can be let loose. Their whole idea of an all-night sitting is the hope that they will get the worst piece of work that they have done for this country for the last 12 months passed without discussion. We have not the slightest objection to their motion.
May I submit as a point of order that as there is complete agreement on this motion we might pass on to the next business?
The Parliamentary Secretary appears to have the same contempt for the Chair that the Minister for Finance has. He has tried to raise, as a point of order, something that is not a point of order at all. He has not shown the full measure of contempt that the Minister has shown in the last week. We are supposed to facilitate the Minister for having shown contempt for the House and for the Chair. The Minister for Finance will not break his vow of silence; he has got into a "pet" and has not got out of it yet, and so the Minister for Agriculture is to reply for him. In fact, the Minister for Finance has two other Ministers by his side, the one will shout and the other will "coo," and the Minister can still maintain his Carthusian silence which he has not broken except for the purpose of disorderly interruption. The House ought not to facilitate the Government, seeing the way they have treated the House and the country for the last week.
I was delighted to hear Deputy O'Sullivan talk on this motion, because he did know what he was talking about, which was rather an unusual thing for the Deputy. The business that we want to get through is urgent. It should be obvious to everybody, especially to Deputies on the other side of the House, who at one time conducted the business from this side. The Finance Bill must be law by the 5th August. If we are going to have the Committee Stage to-day and the remaining stages next week, there are only barely three weeks for the Seanad to consider it.
Who delayed it? The Minister postponed this Budget.
Dr. Ryan
Deputies opposite were largely responsible for the delay, because the Deputy says himself that the Minister for Finance did not speak at all on it.
The Minister postponed his Budget for a week.
Dr. Ryan
The second Bill is the Conditions of Employment Bill, which everybody will agree ought to go through this Session, because everybody agrees with the principle of the Bill. It is a Bill which will require at least a fortnight, and perhaps three weeks, between Committee and Report Stages, and if we do not get the Committee Stage this week, it means that the Dáil is going to run into August. I do not know whether the Deputies opposite have any objection to that, but I assume that they would prefer to get away as soon as possible. The Cereals Bill must be law by 31st July, and, therefore, to show due respect to the other House, we must get it out of this House to-day, if possible. The Widows and Orphans Pensions Bill is obviously urgent in that the people who are going to benefit by it should receive its benefits as soon as possible. Every single item on the Paper is important, and every single item must be got through this Session, with the exception of No. 19, which need not go through all stages, and there are other Bills to come. We spent a good deal more time than usual on Finance measures this year. We spent fourteen hours on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill, and I think it was more than twice as long as was ever spent before on any Finance Bill.
There was never a Finance Bill like it before.
Dr. Ryan
There probably was not. I do not think our predecessors were capable of producing——
Hear, hear! There is full agreement on that, anyhow.
Dr. Ryan
We can all agree on that.
Absolutely.
Dr. Ryan
We also spent longer on the Estimates which have gone through this year than we ever spent before. I do not know if it is that our Estimates are different from those of other years, but I think it is due to the fact that we have an Opposition who take longer to put their few small ideas into words than ever the Opposition did before.
Searching for ideas.
Dr. Ryan
They come in here searching for them, but they should have them before they come in at all. Surely we cannot be accused of stifling discussion by introducing this motion. Three Deputies from the other side spoke—Deputy Cosgrave, Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy O'Sullivan—and if a person came in here, not knowing what motion was being discussed, I am quite sure he would think there was a motion before the Dáil to closure discussion, or a motion for the guillotine. All the talk was about closure, while, in reality, we are bringing in a motion to give them more time for discussion than is normally allowed. In the normal way, we should adjourn at 2 o'clock to-day, but we are asking the Dáil to take plenty of time in order to give due consideration to these measures that are before the House. We are accused of stifling discussion, and that gives an idea of the misrepresentation carried on by the Opposition. Misrepresentation is scarcely a strong enough word, and only that there are certain rules of order here, I could use a stronger word.
What is all the heat from the Opposition about? We say to the Opposition: "We do not altogether agree that you are discussing these things in an intelligent way; we think they could be discussed much more briefly and much more intelligently, but, taking the Opposition as it is, we are going to give you more time than would normally be given by any other Government for the discussion of these measures." They resent it because, they say, we are trying to stifle discussion. I think that is not justified. Deputy Cosgrave says we are spending our time amending Bills. I, myself, am bringing in three Bills this session to amend Cumann na nGaedheal Bills. That is what is taking up our time.
Are you improving them?
What about your own Cereals Bill?
Dr. Ryan
The Cereals Bill amends one of my own, but there are the Diseases of Cattle Bill, the Fresh Meat Bill and a Fisheries Bill, to amend three Cumann na nGaedheal Bills. They must be amended because otherwise the country could not carry on. Deputy O'Sullivan talked about the lack of responsibility we are showing. The Deputy who speaks of having to go home to attend to his business and leave the Dáil is showing utter contempt for his responsibility. His responsibility is to do national business and to do his own business afterwards. He must always keep national business first. Surely no Deputy on the opposite side has any objection to doing his duty for the country, and, therefore, how can there be any division on this motion?
Surely the Minister must have some alternative to compelling members to sit until 12 o'clock to-night? He must also be aware that many Deputies do not reside in Dublin, and that Dublin is not all the Twenty-Six Counties. There are other Deputies besides those who live in Dublin or adjacent to it, and responsible Ministers must know that many Deputies, such as myself, have certain week-end commitments. We have to get home to distant places, and surely there is an alternative. To show that I am prepared to accept the alternative, I ask why not sit five days next week?
It is necessary to dispose of the business this week.
Surely to goodness, the Ministers knew that they had their Estimates to get through, together with the Budget. That Budget was delayed for over a week, and that delay is responsible for the impasse we have got into now. I would suggest that we sit five days next week. I am prepared to vote for that, but I will not vote for sitting until 12 o'clock to-night. I think it is most unfair for a small number of Deputies to dictate to the remainder of the House, and I feel confident that many of the Government back benchers are not in full sympathy with sitting later than 2 o'clock.
I am absolutely in sympathy with it.
Why do you hop it off to the county council meetings, then?
I move that the question be now put.
I am accepting that motion.
Before you put that, Sir——
I have accepted the motion and there can be no further discussion.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 55; Níl, 24.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Brian.
- Breen, Daniel.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Cleary, Mícheál.
- Concannon, Helena.
- Corbett, Edmond.
- Corish, Richard.
- Corkery, Daniel.
- Crowley, Timothy.
- Daly, Denis.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Doherty, Hugh.
- Flinn, Hugo V.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- Gibbons, Seán.
- Goulding, John.
- Hales, Thomas.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Keely, Séamus P.
- Kehoe, Patrick.
- Kelly, James Patrick.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Lynch, James B.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maguire, Conor Alexander.
- Moane, Edward.
- Moore Séamus.
- Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
- Norton, William.
- O Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Dowd, Patrick.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Pearse, Margaret Mary.
- Rice, Edward.
- Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Martin.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Richard.
Níl
- Anthony, Richard.
- Belton, Patrick.
- Burke, James Michael.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Costello, John Aloysius.
- Lynch, Finian.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- Curran, Richard.
- Desmond, William.
- Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Keating, John.
- O'Neill, Eamonn.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Redmond, Bridget Mary.
- Reidy, James.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Rogers, Patrick James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Main question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 55; Níl, 26.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Brian.
- Breen, Daniel.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Cleary, Mícheál.
- Concannon, Helena.
- Corbett, Edmond.
- Corkery, Daniel.
- Crowley, Timothy.
- Daly, Denis.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Doherty, Hugh.
- Flinn, Hugo V.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- Gibbons, Seán.
- Goulding, John.
- Hales, Thomas.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Kehoe, Patrick.
- Keely, Séamus P.
- Kelly, James Patrick.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Lynch, James B.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maguire, Conor Alexander.
- Moane, Edward.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
- Norton, William.
- O Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Dowd, Patrick.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Pattison, James P.
- Pearse, Margaret Mary.
- Rice, Edward.
- Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Martin.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Richard.
Níl
- Anthony, Richard.
- Belton, Patrick.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Burke, James Michael.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Costello, John Aloysius.
- Curran, Richard.
- Desmond, William.
- Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Keating, John.
- Lynch, Finian.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Neill, Eamonn.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Redmond, Bridget Mary.
- Reidy, James.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Rogers, Patrick James.
- Wall, Nicholas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Motion declared carried.