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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1994

Vol. 443 No. 6

Report of Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs: Statements.

The Whips have agreed that considerable reference can be made to Rwanda during this debate.

I am glad that it has been possible to find time to hold this debate. Issues relating to the developing world arouse considerable public interest in Ireland and while we often refer to specific aspects at Question Time and during Adjournment debates we do not often have set piece debates about the broader issues.

Debt and development are the themes of today's debate and are undoubtedly of crucial importance. They are important for the developing countries because so many of them have to carry a huge debt burden and the servicing of this places an enormous strain on their resources. They are also important for the better off countries because the debt issue is seen by the Third World as a yardstick by which they will measure the promises of those who claim to have their interests at heart.

I am sure that Deputies will understand if I start my contribution by referring to Rwanda. For the past few days I have been travelling in a region where the most basic issue of all, the question of life and death, was uppermost in people's minds as they fled from scenes of unprecedented horror. Everyone is familiar by now with the ever-worsening catalogue of murder and torture which is emerging from Rwanda. What I found especially chilling were the individual stories I heard, in plain, unvarnished language, in the refugee camps on the borders of Tanzania and Rwanda. Those stories, as a journalist who accompanied me has reported, held the ring of truth. They were only one side of the story and only a small part of that one side but they brought home to me the terrible reality of what is happening in Rwanda more forcibly than any lists of facts or figures.

I went to Rwanda in response to the grave concern felt by the Government and myself at the horror unfolding there to express the outrage of the Irish people at the appalling killings of innocent men, women and children. If I tell Deputies that the number of letters about Rwanda coming into the Department of Foreign Affairs runs into thousands they will get a measure of the strength of feeling that exists about this issue. The theme of the letters is the same: shock and grief at the scale of the killings, coupled with a strong desire for the international community to do something to prevent the toll getting any greater.

My primary objective was to look and listen and learn at first hand from those at the scene. I was also conscious that the Irish aid personnel were, once again, the first to arrive to give help to the refugees fleeing the conflict. I wanted to demonstrate my support for these courageous young men and women of whom we should all be proud. Finally, I wanted to consult the Governments of Uganda and Tanzania, the neighbouring countries so seriously affected by the Rwanda crisis. Both are priority countries under our aid programme and are, therefore, particularly deserving of our solidarity and support.

I met a very wide range of people during the three days I spent in the region. In Tanzania I spoke at length by phone to the Prime Minister, Mr. John Malacela, and met the Deputy Prime Minister for talks at which he outlined Tanzania's role as facilitator in the Arusha peace process and the heavy burden that the Rwandan crisis is imposing on Tanzania.

I then visited the area most affected by the crisis, Kagera district, which borders Rwanda. I was met by the district commissioner who accompanied me on visits to some of the refugee camps.

A month ago there was nothing at Benaco, which now has the largest concentration of population in Tanzania after Dar es Salaam, and the numbers are still growing. Benaco which is now described as the second largest city in Tanzania, made up of a vast sea of humanity, huddled together around distribution centres for food, blankets and hastily improvised latrines. Although the camp is very well run by the UNHCR and non-government organisations, it is only a short term answer to a huge problem. Conditions at the camp will almost certainly deteriorate especially if there is another influx of refugees, with a likely outbreak of epidemics such as cholera. I have been informed that hundreds of thousands of people are on the move at all times within Rwanda.

The UN has given Concern responsibility for the management of one-third of this vast encampment and new camps are being built nearby in an attempt to disperse the present concentration of more than 250,000 people in tents over an area of only four square kilometres.

I also visited the Karagwe area and a camp at Chapalisi where GOAL is active. Even though there are only about 16,000 refugees, they are arriving in a much poorer state than the refugees at Benaco, as many of them have walked from the far interior of Rwanda on the borders with Zaire. Many of them are arriving singly and there is a large number of unaccompanied minors. Their living conditions are truly miserable and GOAL hopes to resettle them, by arrangement with the Tanzanian authorities and the UNHCR, in a better pre-prepared camp.

Wherever I went I was greatly struck by the reliance that international agencies such as the UNHCR place on Irish agencies like Concern and GOAL, which are as crucial to the aid effort as widely respected organisations such as Medecins sans Frontieres and Oxfam. GOAL and especially Concern have been allocated a pivotal role in camp management and the distribution of food and other supplies by the UNHCR. They are facing an appalling human problem. Refugees are arriving on every trail open from the border. All of the camps are growing every day and there are huge queues of new arrivals — up to 2,000 every day — waiting to be registered and given their first rations and blankets.

I met aid workers from Concern, GOAL, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the UNHCR and other agencies at the camps and at meetings in Karagwe and Bukoba, as well as in Kampala and Nairobi. They, and the refugees and hospital patients I met in Karagwe, gave the most horrific accounts of the atrocities that had been committed across the border in Rwanda. The agencies and missionaries whom I met in Kampala have been involved in the recovery and burial of bodies that have been washed into Lake Victoria. They described the brutal ways these people had been killed and outlined how the economy around the lake had been thrown into disarray as local people were refusing to eat fish, part of their staple diet, and many contracts for fish exports had been cancelled.

During my short visit to Kampala I held discussions on the Rwanda crisis with the Ugandan Foreign Minister, representatives of the Rwanda Popular Front and the Burundi Ambassador. I also met the Minister for Finance and Economic Planning in connection with the Technical Co-operation Agreement which we are planning to sign in late summer and which will give Uganda priority country status for Irish aid.

In Nairobi I met the Deputy Resident Representative of UNAMIR who described the chaos that is reigning inside Rwanda, especially in areas under Government control and the difficulty that UNAMIR is encountering in getting the agreement of the warring parties to its deployment. I also met the Deputy Resident Representative of the International Committee of the Red Cross who gave a most disturbing account of mass violence and of the extremely dangerous conditions under which the ICRC has to operate.

At the Rwandan-Tanzanian border, I crossed the Rumoso bridge over the Kagera river. On the Rwandan side of the border, I met with two senior military personnel from the RPF. The gruesome sight of corpses slapping against the rocks below was a ghastly reminder that the genocide had not yet come to an end.

In Kampala I met Mr. Seth Sendashonga, a member of the RPF Executive Committee, who was accompanied by a senior member of the RPF. He told me how the RPF became involved in the fighting after 6 April with the intention of stopping the massacres against those, mainly Tutsis, who did not support the hardline Government forces. The massacres, he claimed, were one-sided, Government-organised, against civilians, and not simply tribal or ethnic killings. I shall have more to say about this later.

A draft ceasefire had been agreed, but signs of goodwill, such as the freeing of people trapped in Kigali, would first be necessary. If this were to happen the prospects of peace would be improved.

I spoke to him of the accounts I had received from some Hutu refugees in the camps of atrocities committeed in named villages against them by the RPF. He undertook to investigate these as a matter of urgency. He referred to the encouragement by the international community for both sides to enter into talks and stated that the RPF was not prepared to negotiate with the "so called" Government, though they would talk with the Government military forces.

On a more hopeful note, Mr. Sendashonga said that the Arusha accord was still a valid document and that in the spirit of that agreement the possibility of a broad-based Government remained on the agenda.

In meetings I had with the Tanzanian Deputy-Prime Minister, Mr. Mrema, the Uganda Foreign Minister, Mr. Ssemogerere, and others, I emphasised that Ireland condemned in strongest terms all violations of human rights in Rwanda in the past seven weeks, including the massacres of the Tutsi tribe. There could be no justification for such violations. We were making a strong appeal for an end to the killing of civilians and called for both parties in the conflict to cease fighting. An end to the massacre and a ceasefire were a necessary means to commencing negotiations and to reconciliation in the spirit of the Arusha accord.

With the Foreign Minister of Uganda and the RPF, I raised the accounts given to me by Hutu refugees in the refugee camps I visited. They told me of atrocities committed on them and their families by the RPF in Rwanda. As I have said, we have concentrated in this debate on the Rwandan Government forces' atrocities and the genocide which have wiped out, we believe, up to half a million mainly Tutsi people. It was a very disturbing development to hear of RPF atrocities of a similar nature. These were accounts from men and women of the most horrific events. One women spoke of her husband and other men being tied up, being placed in a house, or their home and the building being burned; she managed to hide. Another man talked of the RPF coming to a village, calling the men together for a meeting. Their hands were tied, they were ordered to lie face down, hit on the back of the head by an instument called an unfuni, with one end of a tringle sharpeded. These men were not just beaten but shot. These are the kinds of atrocities of which we heard in these camps. The Foreign Minister said I was the first to mention such atrocities to him. He said he would investigate those accounts. I informed him that I would be reporting these accounts of human rights violations to the United Nations Commission for Human Rights in Geneva, giving people's names and referring to particular regions.

I would also mention that from soundings made the hopes of significant progress at the regional summit in Nairobi next Monday are not very great. It is essential that the international community give every support to the Heads of State of the neighbouring countries and to the OAU.

I would also add that the role of UNAMIR was seen as central by many, and that UNAMIR was considered to be doing very valuable work in very dangerous conditions. In this context I would strongly encourage the United States, which played such an important role in drafting the Security Council resolution on UNAMIR, to provide much needed assistance to speed up its early deployment. They are the best placed to offer the logistical and financial support which a situation as grave as this so urgently warrants. I am speaking here of the real situation obtaining.

The conclusions which I draw from the visit can be divided into two categories, humanitarian and political. On the humanitarian front, the refugee problem stands out. There will be a need for a massive programme of assistance for the foreseeable future. Half a million people have been displaced and, as I travelled around the region, scores more could be seen making their way over the fields with a few flimsy possessions on their backs.

The countries they are fleeing to are extremely poor themselves and the arrival of so many refugees is placing an intolerable burden on their economies. I can speak of Uganda and Tanzania: Zaire, Burundi and Kenya have also been hit. These neighbouring countries have been generous and hospitable, but they are feeling the strain. They urgently need our assistance and I will be calling on the European Union to do everything possible to help.

The situation inside Rwanda can only be guessed at. Judging by the stories coming from traumatised refugees the country is probably going through a living hell. Aid is beginning to make its way into Rwanda, both from the north and the south. As usual, Irish NGOs, in this case GOAL, Concern and Trócaire, are spearheading the effort. What seems certain is that once the full extent of the Rwanda tragedy is known, an enormous effort will be needed to render assistance.

Ireland has already assisted through £500,000 worth of emergency aid from the Government. On the basis of my visit and having regard to the fact that the needs are so great, the Government will respond positively to three requests: First, Prime Minister John Malecela of Tanzania made a direct appeal for water-pumping equipment for the rapidly expanding refugee camps at Ngora. Irish Aid will fund this through the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees; second, GOAL have an impressive camp management programme under way in Chapalisa which I visited. They have also established a base within Rwanda itself. I will make funds available for their projects; third. Concern has been appointed as one of the main coordinating agencies in the camps around Ngora and this will require additional financing to that already allocated to them. In addition, I am making available a grant of £25,000 to Concern right away for their operation to remove corpses from Lake Victoria for burial. Trócaire also intend to establish an emergency medical programme in Southern Rwanda with the Medical Missionaries of Mary and I am prepared to allocate funds to this project.

I should say that the sight of mutilated bodies in the river at Kusoma Falls is something I will never forget. It is almost beyond comprehension that human beings should have the last shred of dignity torn from them in this way.

I mentioned earlier the RPF atrocities. It is quite obvious we need to maintain a sense of balance. The vast majority of those killings were carried out by the Government forces. What I saw certainly respresents a glaring indication of man's inhumanity to man in its lowest possible form. One Concern aid worker, working on this project of taking the bodies from the river, spoke to me of how viciously the bodies were tortured and multilated. I could not repeat some accounts because they were too shocking; women and children were not spared. In fact one of the most upsetting reports from that Concern aid worker was of the taking of bodies of women from the river, in some cases one or two children having been tied to the mother. The Irish aid worker expressed his view that they were thrown into the river while still alive. That will give the House an indication of how serious and vicious is this war. I suppose one could say that what is happening is Rwanda is a repetition of what happened in Nazi Germany or in Pol Pot's Cambodia.

The new grants to which I have just referred will bring this Government's assistance to a figure of almost £1 million. This response reflects what I believe to be the extreme gravity of Rwandan crisis and, I am sure, will be welcomed by the public.

May I take this opportunity to ask the Irish people, who have been so generous in the past, to continue to contribute to the many agencies raising funds for Rwanda. I can bear personal testimony to the seriousness of the need and the excellent work the volunteer workers are doing. We all readily appreciate that always there is an element of danger of what is called "donor fatigue".

On the political front, the following are my conclusions. I shall be reporting to the European Union and will emphasise the importance of the very early deployment of the expanded UNAMIR peace-keeping force.

While the purpose of my visit primarily was to assess the position in Rwanda, it was also to express the great concern felt by the people of Ireland at the tragedy by going there. I shall say only that my presence there, as a representative of the international community, was greatly appreciated by all those I met — refugees. NGO officials, Government Ministers, the RPF and UNAMIR. My visit was especially appreciated by the Regional Commissioner who, two months ago, was simply administering his area, with a population of over one million people. Therefore, one can readily appreciate the new burdens falling on his shoulders trying to cope with this influx of people into the Tanzanian area.

Some progress is being made towards ending the massacres and bringing about a ceasefire. I was somewhat encouraged by my discussions with the RPF, UNAMIR, the ICRC. We shall do what we can to encourage the UN to deploy the enlarged UNAMIR force immediately. My major concern here is to protect the lives of the many thousands of civilians who remain in danger of being added to the genocide.

It is clear from my talks with Prime Minister Malecela of Tanzania and FM Ssemogerere of Uganda that the Heads of State in the regional summit have a crucial role to play and need substantial support from the international community.

Ireland co-sponsored the recent UN Commission on Human Rights resolution on Rwanda. This states that the:

...international community will exert every effort to bring those responsible for violations of human rights to justice, while affirming that the primary responsibility for bringing perpetrators to justice rests with national judicial systems.

Both the Ugandan Foreign Minister and the RPF representative stressed that action to bring the perpetrators of the genocide to justice would have to be taken. The Minister said that a national tribunal would have to be set up. In my view, it is important that action be taken quickly and those responsible for all violations of human rights be brought to justice. I shall forward to the Special Rapporteur of the Committee on Human Rights the accounts given to me in the refugee camps by Hutu people of the atrocities committed on them and theirs by the RPF.

From my discussions with the Ambassador of Burundi, it is clear that efforts to redress the situation in Rwanda must include preventing the conflict from spilling over into Burundi. From our discussions it is clear that there is a real danger of this happening.

It is appropriate to conclude my remarks on this visit by saying that the Tanzanian Government asked me to make representations on its behalf to the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund about their financial difficulties — a matter very much related to today's debate. They are trying hard to address their balance of payments and debt problems and are implementing a structural adjustment programme.

However, they asked me to point out to the international financial institutions that the burden of coping with so many refugees was extremely onerous and that account should be taken of that. I undertook to support them on this and will be making my views known to the World Bank and the IMF.

The Tanzanian Government's concerns are shared by many leaders from the developing world. The need to integrate developing countries including the poorer among them into the world economy is an issue which calls for a new approach. Following the successful conclusion of the Uruguay Round there is a need for the new World Trade Organisation, on which we are agreed in Marrakesh should co-operate on a basis of equality with the IMF and the World Bank, to be given a more focused sense of direction. Surely it is necessary for a dialogue to begin at once between these three great economic organisations to consider how, together, they can improve the economic and trade prospects of developing countries.

I turn now to the debt problem, surely one of the major hurdles facing developing countries in their struggle to provide a long term viable framework for their economic and social development.

The background to our discussion is the excellent report which the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has prepared and which provides much valuable information on the scale of the problem and suggests some possible options which could help resolve the debt burden for some of the most severely indebted countries. I pay tribute to their work and assure them that it is being given very serious consideration by the Government.

I should also like to acknowledge the work which the Debt and Development Coalition and OXFAM have carried out. Their campaign has done much to highlight the problem and to draw attention to the impact which debt is having on the hopes and aspirations of many of the peoples of the developing world.

It is now widely accepted that the problem of debt is one of the most serious burdens weighing on the Third World. It is right that our attention should be focused on the crisis developing countries are facing, especially in Africa. There can be little doubt that the burden of debt which is carried by the poorest countries is a major impediment to growth and a factor in preventing them from undertaking programmes and policy initiatives for development.

It is important to bring to greater public attention the paradox that, in spite of the publicity given to donor funded financial assistance, the overall flow of financial resources is from South to North, not from North to South. The developing countries are financing investment in the developed world, not the other way round.

Last year in Zambia and again this week in Tanzania I had lengthy discussions with Ministers from both Government about the scale of their debt servicing problems. I am, therefore, acutely conscious of the very real concerns that the governments in developing countries have about their ability to meet these repayments and at the same time keep their economies from collapsing.

I should like to consider the origins of the debt crisis. The mistakes committed then should help us to ensure that in any initiative that might be taken today, these errors are not repeated. In the 1970s many developing countries dramatically increased their long term foreign borrowing. Money was needed to build the social and industrial infrastructures of these countries and spending was increased on health and education, on road building and public transportation, and on increasing production in agriculture and industry. While some of the money borrowed was corruptly squandered or unwisely spent, the vast majority of investment projects were genuine and worthwhile.

Throughout the decade, commercial banks became increasingly involved in funding these projects. Cash rich, they saw the developing countries, and especially those in the middle income and oil-producing categories, as new and lucrative low-risk markets. Unable to secure the amounts they required in bilateral concessional loans from the governments of the developed world, developing countries gladly turned to the commercial banks.

The multilateral lending agencies, such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), were an option, but their policy of attaching conditions and restrictions to their loans made them unpopular with developing countries. As a result, developing countries borrowed very heavily on loans that carried floating interest rates. At the time, this appeared quite sensible as real interest rates remained quite low.

The economies of many middle-income developing countries were growing strongly and the prices for basic commodities continued to rise until the middle of the decade. It seemed that there would be little difficulty for most developing countries in securing enough foreign exchange earnings to meet debt repayments as and when they fell due.

When the bubble burst, it did so both suddenly and spectacularly. To maintain vital imports of oil during the oil crisis of 1979-80, many developing countries were forced to greatly increase their foreign borrowings, just as the increased price of oil adversely affected their balance of payments. Subsequent falls in the price of oil in the 1980s did similar damage to those developing countries which were also oil-producing nations.

At the same time the oil crisis struck, world prices for basic commodities, on which many developing countries are heavily dependent for export earnings, began to decline. Between 1980 and 1988, UNCTAD estimated that real prices for commodities fell by an average of 18 per cent, with falls of up to 64 per cent in sugar prices and 57 per cent in tin prices. Africa's export earnings, which had grown by 22 per cent a year in the 1970s, fell by 9 per cent a year from 1980-84 and continued to decline in subsequent years. Attempts by exporters to boost production resulted only in a further depression of commodity prices.

Since 1982, the indebtedness of the developing world continued to rise. In 1992, the total external debt of all developing countries was US$1,664 billion and the World Bank estimated that this total would have increased by a further 5 per cent to $1,750 billion by the end of 1993.

In regional terms, almost 30 per cent of this debt is owed by countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. The region's total debt is estimated to have risen by 4.6 per cent during 1993.

Just as Latin America and the Caribbean was the first region to fall victim to the debt malaise, so too is it spearheading the developing world's recovery. While there is still a long way to go, and allowing for wide variation within regions, most of the developing world's regions are beginning to show some fragile progress in easing their way out of the debt crisis. There is of course one major exception and that is Africa, and in particular, Sub-Saharan Africa.

The World Bank classifies countries by income levels and by debt burdens. To be categorised as being a severely indebted low income country (SILIC), a country must have a GNP per capita of less than US$675 and, in addition, either a ratio of 80 per cent, or greater, of debt service to GNP, or a ratio of 220 per cent, or greater, of debt service to exports. At the end of 1992, the World Bank had listed 31 countries as belonging to this category and of that figure, 23 countries were located in Sub-Saharan Africa. In 1993, it was estimated that the total debt of Sub-Saharan Africa increased by 2 per cent to US$198.2 billion. The bulk of this is made up with loans which many developing countries need to meet the cost of buying oil, spare parts and food.

To drastically reduce the amount given in official loans in an attempt to reverse this trend would precipitate a far more severe cash crisis in most seriously indebted developing countries than anything that has been seen so far. The other alternative, of replacing loans with grants, to the extent that Sub-Saharan debt was not being increased, would also be fraught with difficulties.

The majority of donor countries, given the current economic recession are reluctant to commit additional resources to their ODA. Even if this were feasible, it is likely that they would attach very tight conditions including economic structural adjustment provisions to such new aid.

Possibly the most serious consequence of the debt crisis for seriously indebted countries is the detrimental effect it has on the attraction of private investment to the country. Alone among the regions of the developing world, Sub-Saharan Africa did not receive a substantial increase in foreign direct investment in recent years. The growth of foreign investment represents one of the best avenues for growth for the developing world and it is vitally important that Sub-Saharan Africa should not be denied the economic impetus it can provide.

There is now no doubt that Sub-Saharan Africa cannot solve the debt crisis by itself. Since the crisis broke in the early 1980s the international financial community has been seeking ways to resolve it. Initially, rescheduling of payments was thought to be sufficient to resolve what was originally seen as a temporary problem. In more recent years, both creditors and debtors have attempted to find more innovative and effective means of resolving the crisis.

There are two broad categories of creditors: commercial banks and official creditors. The major creditors among the banks have grouped together in what is known as the London Club. The category of official creditors is further subdivided into sovereign creditors and multilateral agencies, such as the World Bank and the IMF. Sovereign, or bilateral, creditors have formed themselves into the Paris Club.

A common feature of all Paris Club rescheduling and IMF or World Bank loans is that a debtor country must be implementing a structural adjustment programme before it can benefit. These programmes are designed to reduce the balance of payments deficit in developing countries by setting macro-economic targets for each country. Without the implementation of structural adjustment programmes, the World Bank argues that it would be pointless in providing assistance through debt reduction to many developing countries.

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister of State but the time available to him under the order of the House this morning is now exhausted. Perhaps the House will permit him to complete his speech. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I appreciate the co-operation of the House. As Deputies will be aware, these programmes have been severely criticised, primarily for the effect which they have on the poor. Critics claim that they result in countries being forced to cut spending in areas that affect the poor, such as in health care or providing basic education. The World Bank and the IMF counter with the argument that they do not define the particular areas in which cutbacks must be made and that to do so would be an unwarranted intrusion in the rights of sovereign governments; something for which they are already severely criticised.

Critics also point out that the poorer sections of any community are also invariably the ones with the least political power and that very often those who could better afford to bear the brunt of cutbacks or increases in taxation are also better able to resist them. Wherever the balance of truth lies in this argument, it is now acknowledged by all that structural adjustment programmes have caused hardship.

The Bretton Woods Institutions, World Bank and IMF, recognised for a long time that structural adjustment programmes could cause problems for the poorer sections of developing countries and they devised various structural adjustment facilities and trust funds to provide assistance. However, these facilities proved inadequate and in 1988 the Enhanced Structural Adjustment Facility, ESAF, began operations.

This facility provided loans on highly concessional terms to the poorest developing countries that were attempting to implement adjustment programmes. The new facility will encourage countries to use the funds provided to include social safety nets which are specifically designed to protect the poor with a range of measures such as increasing public spending in areas that are directly to their benefit without compromising the fiscal policies set by the structural adjustment policies.

Ireland was not a contributor to the original Enhanced Structural Adjustment Facility. The Government has now decided that Ireland should join the successor facility. Contributing to ESAF will be a positive and tangible indication of Ireland's commitment to the solution of the debt crisis and will increase our credibility when calling for increased debt reduction measures.

I should like to turn now to the role Ireland can play in the resolution of the debt crisis. Ireland is not a creditor country. Unlike many other industrialised countries, Ireland does not give any loans to other countries.

Ireland's own bilateral aid programme has been based, since its inception, on grants rather than on loans. Consequently, in contrast with most other donors, our programmes have not contributed to the debt burden of the developing countries. Official debts of developing countries to Ireland, therefore, arise principally under the heading "government guaranteed debt", specifically from commercial transactions on which official export credit insurance was granted and invoked.

The share of Third World debt owed to Ireland is small by any standards, even taking into account Ireland's small relative size. As a member of the Paris Club, Ireland has participated in the rescheduling arrangements made for a number of developing countries and has played an active part in the decision of the Paris Club to provide debt relief to the poorer heavily indebted countries.

Ireland does not have any debts to collect, or more to the point, any debts to forgive. As a result, Irish calls for large-scale debt forgiveness may run the risk of sounding hollow and opportunistic to creditors. On the other hand, it does enable us to lend our voice to the calls of those, and they come not just from developing countries, who wish to see a much more concerted and vigorous effort to address the debt problem.

As the report of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs correctly points out, the Minister for Finance, as Governor for the World Bank Group and the IMF, has sought in recent annual meetings of these bodies, the formulation of a debt-relief package at least in line with the Trinidad terms.

Ireland can of course make a more practical contribution to helping devloping countries to manage their debt. The United Nations Institute for Training and Research, UNITAR, has been running programmes on the legal aspect of debt and financial management since 1987. In 1994 Ireland contributed £90,000 to this programme. The programme aims to build up legal skills in debt negotiations in developing countries, as well as increasing awareness of the importance of having legal representation at negotiations for loan agreements or debt rescheduling.

Another way in which we can help is through the regular briefing which we give to the Irish Alternate Director at the IMF on the economic problems facing the priority countries under our Aid Programme — Ethiopia, Uganda, Zambia, Tanzania, Lesotho and Sudan — so that he is well informed when the board of the fund discusses these countries' economies.

I have noted that the report of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs suggested that a special fund be established to write off Africa's debt to the IMF by selling 10 per cent of its gold reserves. There are two principal objections to this suggestion. The IMF, like any other financial institution, requires a solid base of reserves if it is to continue trading. Selling off its gold reserves runs the risk of damaging its credibility and its capacity to continue raising and lending money. It would also sharply depreciate gold prices.

While the IMF has attracted a lot of criticism from developing countries and from NGOs, it still represents the cheapest, and in many cases the sole, source of financial credit for most developing countries.

It is accepted by almost everyone that the resolution of the debt crisis would not in itself solve the problem of poverty in the developing world. It is also accepted that simply forgiving present debt entirely, even if that was possible, would not solve the crisis. Unless there is a corresponding development of the economies of those countries that are severely indebted, debt forgiveness would be futile. This is the philosophy behind structural adjustment policies, but these policies are not the only method of achieving this development.

In this regard, the type of projects supported by Ireland's bilateral aid programme are invaluable in promoting the conditions for sustainable economic and social development. In a real sense, the bilateral aid programme is a significant contribution to helping individual countries tackle the debt crisis. It is, therefore, important that the levels of concessional funds which are channelled to developing countries, especially those in sub-Saharan Africa, should be maintained.

The development of programmes in two new priority countries in Ireland's bilateral aid programme, represents a firm commitment by the Government to ensuring that the focus of our aid effort remains Sub-Saharan Africa. We are committing ourselves to projects and programme which will help to meet the basic needs of the populations in some of the least developed countries in the world.

The debt issue is an extremely complex one, involving many players. There are no easy answers and no quick solutions. The consolidated effort of all those involved is required to address some of the most intractable problems and to identify solutions for those countries which are most seriously affected. I know that today's debate will help to prioritise the most important aspects of the debt problem and I look forward to hearing the views of Deputies on an issue of such major political and economic importance.

I again thank the House for extending the time available to me. As we are discussing the position in Rwanda and the debt issue my speech took longer than expected.

I welcome the Minister's statement on his visit to Rwanda, chilling and awful as the details are. The problem is appalling and I am sure all Members agree the international community must do something. I am delighted we are doing our bit. I may be critical of the fact that we are not forceful enough in stating our case, but I am satisfied the Minister is committed to ensuring that the world community does something about this terrible problem. I accept we can only persuade others because we are not a major military power and do not have a major economic influence in the world. However, we have a great moral influence and we should use it to get the international community — especially powers such as the United States — to do something about this awful problem.

I suggest we concentrate our efforts at United Nations level. Some years ago the United Nations set up a fund of $150 million for peacekeeping and I do not have evidence of that being increased. That fund should be increased to approximately $500 million per annum. Because of the many peacekeeping and other functions in which the United Nations is involved throughout the world, one of the main difficulties facing the Secretary General is the lack of funds at his disposal to tackle this enormous problem in Rwanda. He also has to deal with the recalcitrance of the United States who were not so recalcitrant in respect of actions under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter in Kuwait or Somalia, when the national interest of the United States, rather than its contributions to international morality, came to the fore.

The massacres in Rwanda cannot be tackled without the assistance of countries who have the necessary logistics to come between the factions in the conflict. Arguments about national sovereignty and so on must be put aside in the face of horrible events such as this. I request the Minister to keep on the pressure for a major increase in the funds at the disposal of the Secretary General of the United Nations for peacekeeping functions. I also urge him to be part of a raised international voice in putting pressure on the international community — especially on countries in a position to do so — to intervene through the United Nations in this awful conflict. There is a danger the problem will spread to Burundi where the same devil's brew exists. The Hutu and Tutsi tribes are also part of Burundi and Uganda. There is potential for a regional conflict which would result in Armageddon, not only for that region of Africa but for the world.

The purpose of today's debate is to deal with the debt problem affecting the developing world which is a major block to development in all developing countries. I am a member of the sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs which deals with overseas development assistance. It is chaired by Deputy Pat Gallagher who prepared the report before the House for discussion. I am delighted the sub-committee took this initiative and I congratulate the chairman for his initiative in obtaining expert advice, devoting many meetings to this problem and eventually publishing a report on the debt burden. The report summarises the debt burden as follows:

Third World Governments spend 50 per cent more on debt servicing than on health and education combined.

Debt servicing takes priority over food security. The best land is used for cash crops for export. In Sudan, 60 per cent of agricultural labour is engaged in producing export crops.

The most indebted countries are those which are deforesting fastest to increase exports and earn the necessary foreign exchange for debt repayment.

A half a million children die each year as a result of the debt crisis (UNICEF).

Women in developing countries pay the highest price for this debt crisis — in the labour force, on the farm, in the home and in the community — paying with their time, their energy, and their health.

The Minister referred to the origins of the debt and mentioned the oil crisis, the need for developing countries to borrow more money and the bubble bursting in the 1980s when developing countries discovered they owed levels of debt they could not repay. The main lenders were the IMF and the World Bank and, to say the least, their response has been tardy. Using its financial muscle, the World Bank insisted on structural adjustment programmes in developing countries and told them they must structurally adjust their economies using methods applied to western economies to trade and work themselves out of their difficulties. That has proven disastrous. This brings to mind the response Daniel O'Connell made to Robert Peel in the British Parliament in the 19th century when it was discussing famine and — as they called it in Britain — distress in Ireland. O'Connell was referring to the famine and, quoting the conventions of the time, Peel said that the market mechanism would have to work out the problems of distress and famine in Ireland.

O'Connell correctly replied that one cannot respond to the cry of want with a quote from political economy.

The World Bank today used a similar solution. They quote political economy to poor and underdeveloped countries, tell them to work out their difficulties and impose on them unworkable structural programmes, with appalling effects, one of the worst the imposition of user fees for basic services such as health, education and housing. In Zambia people have to pay for primary education and in Zimbabwe, Nigeria and Gabon user fees have been introduced for education and health facilities on the insistence of the World Bank.

Ten years ago in all developing countries the percentage of the population living below the poverty line was 30 per cent, today it is 29 per cent. In sub-Saharan Africa the percentage of the population living in poverty has increased from 46 ten years ago to 50 per cent today. If present trends continue, it is estimated that 55 per cent of the population in sub-Saharan Africa will be below the poverty line by the year 2000. There are hopeful signs in Latin America and other Asean countries that the number living below the poverty line is falling. Three-quarters of the population in 30 of the poorest countries in Africa have an average income of less than US $1 a day. The average Zambian owes $867, twice his average annual income. The average person in Mozambique owes four times what he earns per annum to the international financial institutions.

We hope that democracy will be restored in Mozambique after the October elections. The international financial institutions impose conditions on an unfortunate country like Mozambique. How can we expect democracy to flourish in these conditions? Democracy and stability do not come cheaply, they have a price. We expect them to come cheaply. The broader world community is complacent. I am particularly critical of the World Bank and the IMF. We complain about recession in our country when our living standards reduce by 1 per cent, but in Third World countries a recession means that people who formerly had two now only have one meal a day and have not the means to clothe the family. That is what recession means in Zambia, Gabon and Mozambique.

Another barometer by which we judge a country's welfare is the state of its health services. According to UNICEF, infant mortality in sub-Saharan African countries is 50 times higher than in the industrial world. According to its excellent book The State of the World's Children the number of children per 1,000 who die before the age of five in sub-Saharan Africa is 183 which compares with ten per 1,000 in the category into which Ireland falls. The gap is evident. In 1992, the last year for which we have figures, it is estimated that 4.5 million children in the poorest countries in Africa have died from malnutrition and related diseases. Millions of children in this age group suffer and are maimed by avoidable diseases such as measles, diarrhoea and malnutrition. It is little wonder that these countries have such problems when one considers that two-thirds of the population do not have access to clean drinking water.

Millions of adults suffer also from poverty related diseases such as tuberculosis, polio and malaria. According to the best figures available ten million Africans are deemed to be HIV positive and millions will die from AIDS in the coming years. Almost a quarter of the total adult population suffer from anaemia, or iodine and vitamin deficiencies, all related to diet. It is little wonder that countries such as Zambia, Tanzania and Ghana have limited welfare services when one considers that they spend approximately four times more on debt repayments than on the welfare of their population. To my knowledge, no country in the sub-Saharan region spends more on health, education and housing than it spends on debt repayments.

Only half the population in sub-Saharan countries have access to Government or NGO funded institutional health care. Most of the services are located in the larger cities and towns, leaving countless millions in rural areas with no access to health care.

Debt repayments have had a huge impact on the provision of education. In 1980 it was estimated that almost 80 per cent of all African children attended primary school for which no fees were charged; but the best estimate shows that in 1990 after the imposition of fees, about 68 per cent of African children attend primary school, a decrease of 12 per cent in a decade. If memory serves me right, one out of every three men and two out of every three women are illiterate. It is scandalous that one has to pay to gain access to education at primary level, as is the case in Nigeria, Ghana and Zambia, on the insistence of the structural adjustment programmes. This is scandalous, especially when adult literacy is poor. Less than one-third of all African children participate in second level education. I have no figures for the number who are lucky enough to go on to third level, but it must be terribly low.

The other aspect of the structural adjustment programmes is the austerity they have introduced. They have resulted in hundreds of thousands of people being put out of work in the sub-Saharan region although reliable figures are not available. The approach to employment in that part of the world is culturally different from ours. In most cases employment is a means of obtaining income. It is immoral that those structural programmes have resulted in hundreds of thousands of poor people being thrown into the impoverishment of unemployment. We must make that point loud and clear at the councils of the IMF and the World Bank.

The abolition of food subsidies and price controls have had awful effects in many countries, particularly in Tanzania. Zambia is an even worse scenario. This has happened in Ghana and Burkina Faso also. The abolition of food subsidies can be applied as an austerity instrument in a developed economy but it cannot be applied to the Sub-Saharan region of Africa without devastating social effects followed by social decline. The application of that conventional wisdom to countries in that region illustrates repeatedly how wide of the mark is the thinking in the council of the IMF. The position in Rwanda was caused by such policies and the present crisis there is the natural result of economic collapse. On the scale of the barometer of the human condition in terms of access to clean water, basic immunisation produced by UNICEF and so on, Rwanda was rated one of the worst in the world. The figures in the 1994 report refers to the position in 1993 before the present crisis. Such policies result in the breakdown of law and order, anarchy, mayhem and the introduction of ethnic cleansing programmes. The essential ingredient in this is economic decline, which in turn breeds social decline. I accept we have a good moral standing on this matter but it is imperative that we do not reduce the volume of our voice on this matter at world fora. I accept the Minister's total commitment to the issue. It is right and proper that the House should discuss such matters more often than it does. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, under the chairmanship of Deputy Lenihan, and the sub-committee dealing with overseas development assistance should discuss it and report to the House. This would enlighten the public on the issue.

In regard to the effect of social adjustment programmes on women in developing countries, UNICEF has coined a phrase "apartheid of gender". There are many traditional reasons for such apartheid in Africa, namely, the traditional role of women including that of heavy manual work, of childbearing, housekeeping and so on. Women have suffered most as economic conditions deteriorated in those countries and social attitudes have deteriorated as a result of economic decline. It is normal for African women to work 16 to 18 hours a day doing their outdoor and household duties. More women have been forced to move to the workplace. They have been hired as cheap labour, which has resulted in them having less time to care for their children, who may frequently be ill. Such work impinges on their small amount of leisure time. It has also had negative effects in terms of their education. In schools where there are user fees families will take their daughters rather than their sons out of school when they can no longer afford to pay their fees or to keep them at school for other reasons. This is because of the cultural attitude towards the role of women in Africa. It is despicable that we should be indirectly a part of that adverse trend affecting the welfare of women in those countries. The Minister should examine the issue and when he attends the next meeting of the World Bank, the IMF or an EU meeting he should speak on it. I accept that the appalling conditions and the increasingly adverse conditions imposed on women in those countries for cultural reasons is a sensitive issue, but if it is caused by an economic influence of which we are a part we should not be slow to highlight it because it is a major part of the problem.

I was interested to read the plan on the relationship between aid and recipient countries drawn up by the American Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Laurence Brady. It is interesting that a distinction was drawn between countries with a medium level of development as against those at the lowest point on the development scale. The Brady plan is more generous to countries which have a greater capacity to develop from their economic problems than those which appear to have less chance of doing so. The thinking behind that is that the United States of America is most anxious to ensure that countries, particularly those in Latin America, do not suffer economic collapse. It does not make good economic sense for countries in a nearby region with which it trades and a developed country which may be a source of investment to suffer economic collapse. There is an enlightened self-interest or a loaded bias in the concessions given to such countries which developed countries perceive will best serve their longterm interests. That discrimination is reprehensible. The response of the world to the debt problem should be loaded in favour of those countries approaching total financial and social collapse. All such resources should be targeted at debt forgiveness.

It is three years since Mr. John Major, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, put the Trinidad terms on the table at a Commonwealth Conference in Trinidad as a response to the inadequacy of the Toronto terms. They are only about partial debt forgiveness but it is a start. However, those within the international community who are in a position to implement them have not acted. The United States say that the problem is Japan, but there is no political will to implement the Trinidad terms. Our influence in this area may be small but we do attend meetings of the World Bank and IMF and we must continue to insist on the immediate implementation of the enhanced Trinidad terms.

I welcome the opportunity this debate offers to speak about the Rwandan conflict and about Third World debt.

Even before the upsurge in ethnic killing in Rwanda exploded into our news media, a fundamental theme occurred to me in regard to the position of genocide in the context of international law. Looking at the United Nations Charter and considering the entitlement of the international community to respond to genocide, it seems that there is a grave lacuna in international law and in the United Nations Charter on genocidal activity that is internal to any country.

It was noteworthy that the Somali expedition was based on the threat to regional stability. Deputy De Rossa made the point at the time, and I agreed with him, that the pretext of a threat to regional stability was apparently the only basis on which it was possible for the United Nations to intervene in Somalia. The Somali conflict was one of civil strife and civil war and attracted huge international concern but it did not at any stage reach the proportions of that in Rwanda or, for that matter, in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Nonetheless, because of the famine, it was regarded as a threat to regional stability which allowed direct intervention under the United Nations Charter.

I wonder — this is a basic point — about the morality of international law based on a charter which excludes interference within a jurisdiction where genocide is taking place. Is there not a need, in the context of the revision of the United Nations Charter, to revisit the issue of genocide and the circumstances in which the world community can intervene to stop it? Had there not been a Second World War going on when Auschwitz and Belsen were in full operation, and had Adolf Hitler, managed to stay at peace while he implemented his final solution, was there and is there a right under the United Nations Charter for other countries to intervene to stop genocide occurring within one jurisdiction? I very much doubt it. Unless the pretext can be invoked that such intervention is necessary because there is threat to regional stability, there is little that one country can do to stop another country engaging in genocide. Civil war and repression slide into genocide so easily, as we have seen in Rwanda and Bosnia, that in the context of the revision of the United Nations Charter there is a crying need to establish some moral principles at the heart of the international community's legal system which would allow for intervention where that is necessary to counter genocide, even if it involves infringement of sovereignty of a country.

It also occurs to me in the context of both Rwanda and Bosnia that the international community has a vested interest in stability and in the eradiction of civil strife and upset. This is probably more easily identified now in Bosnia than in Rwanda, but the same criteria and considerations will come into play in Rwanda at a later stage. It looks as if in Bosnia at any rate the international community will attach greater importance to achieving a settlement on the ground between the warring factions without ever broaching the issue of justice and retribution and punishment of those who committed genocide. The only action open to the international community within a jurisdiction which is a member of that community, short of invoking the pretext that there is a threat to regional stability, is the use of sanctions. The sad fact is that in Nazi Germany when the League of Nations existed, or in Bosnia or the former Yugoslavia in this era or in Rwanda, sanctions are of no avail.

The real questions are, what is to be done when there is genocide and who can do something about it? On what legal basis can those who have the power and the might to put an end to genocide intervene to stop it? Is there a duty under international law, is there a duty imposed by considerations of international humanity to intervene to stop genocide even it there is no threat to regional stability? In that context we should take advantage of the review of the United Nations Charter to bring to centre stage the right and duty of the world community to intervene to stop genocide no matter what the implications for the sovereignty of any member state or series of member states. It is neither right nor proper that considerations of which is the sovereign or effective government of Rwanda should affect the decision as to whether the international community can intervene to stop hundreds of thousands of people being slaughtered.

I do not believe it is right that in Somalia it was only the absence of a clearly defined government that enabled the United Nations to intervene. On Bosnia, it is not right for the international community to be hustled by the desire for peace and order into accepting a peace in which, to use Deputy Connor's words, justice goes out the door. Justice is important in international affairs and the perception that international justice will assert itself is probably one of the greatest deterrents to genocide there could be. Those who line people up, kill them and fling them into mass graves, whether in Poland in 1940, 1941 and 1942 or in Rwanda today or in Bosnia last year, those who engage in such unspeakable atrocities, who engage in the actual execution of genocide must know that there is an international community that will bring them to justice and punish them.

Any system of international order which is not based on the existence of an international will and means to execute international justice on those who practice genocide is fundamentally flawed. Who knows the names and identities of the people who organised the genocide, mass rape and unspeakable atrocities in Bosnia? Is it not the case that there will be a great temptation, in order to achieve a settlement there, to turn a blind eye to the activities of those people? I am fully confident that the tribunal that was established will not be suddenly extinguished, in the same way as you turn off an electric light bulb, but that the international will to make its work prosper, to bring to justice and punish those who have engaged in genocide, will abate as soon as the Realpolitik of Balkan politics dictate that it should.

The same applies to Rwanda. In present circumstances it is highly unlikely that the people who engaged in genocide there will be brought to justice. The people who mowed other people down, who killed children, who committed unspeakable crimes, must have known in their hearts that there was no international order, international agency or, above all, international will to visit justice upon them. Unless we are willing to protect people from genocide, whatever the implications for sovereignty and whatever the cost may be in the short term, there will be genocide again and again on this benighted planet.

I say those things because it occurs to me on occasion that we do a lot of hand wringing about genocide and shed a lot of crocodile tears on the subject. Doubtless in our hearts we have a sense of revulsion about it, but in the last analysis sympathy, outrage and sentiments such as those are no good unless they are the spur to implementing justice and ensuring that those who contemplate the unforgivable injustice of genocide know that they will be punished, no matter how long it takes and no matter what they achieve with military power. If the international community signals, particuarly in the context of Bosnia, that the raison d'être of establishing order there is not to be subjugated completely to the primary and overbearing need to uphold the rights of people not to be subjected to genocide, if we cannot demonstrate with the same ruthlessness as was shown at Nuremberg that those who engage in these activities are finally brought to book, these atrocities will continue. I am not suggesting the death penalty but that those who engage in these activities must be punished.

I wish to deal with the report on Third World debt. I welcome the Minister's remarks in this regard. They are compassionate but also realistic. He made one point which I voiced at the committee, a point of which we can never lose sight: that because we are not an international creditor of any significance, our rhetoric sounds somewhat hollow unless it is backed up by effective action. Our rhetoric would be all the more persuasive if we made rapid and substantial progress towards achieving the target of 0.7 per cent of GNP in overseas development assistance. It is for that reason that there is a price tag on rhetoric. The Irish people collectively must realise that you cannot lecture the international world about their responsibilities and duties unless you, in whatever way is open to you, however small your resources may be, at least vindicate the priciples you are urging upon others in terms of your own affairs. I welcome the Minister's comment about the danger that Ireland will be seen to be lecturing others about matters that have no cost for us and in circumstances where we, on other fronts, are not seen to carry the weight of assistance to the Third World which is the duty and conventional burden of First World countries.

It is clear from the figures presented in the report referred to by the Minister and in the literature which was circulated to Members today that the position in terms of aid to sub-Saharan Africa in particular and the repayments that region is required to make to the first world is completely untenable. It is obvious the region has not the capacity to repay the debts undertaken on its behalf by various regimes in the past and that it must be relieved of its debt in a way which makes sense. Even if there are technical drawbacks, as referred to by the Minister, to the proposal made in the committee's report for liquidating IMF assets in order to relieve Third World debt, Ireland must unequivocally side with the process of debt extinguishment and debt forgiveness. Ireland, must, as Deputy Connor said, unequivocally join forces with those on the international stage who support the implementation of debt reduction terms such as the Trinidad terms. We must make greater progress towards debt reduction and we must do so as a matter of urgency. As Deputy Connor said, this is not simply an academic argument among economists; the great majority of sub-Saharan Africans are deprived of basic human rights through poverty and this country in particular must demonstrate the urgency of acting on their side.

I am glad the Government has at long last cast aside the worries and reticence which seemed to afflict previous Governments about population control in the Third World. The suggestion that Ireland, for moral reasons and because of particular viewpoints held by one denomination or other in this country, should refrain from participating in programmes whose purpose is to ensure that uncontrolled population explosions in Third World countries are avoided, is completely unacceptable. The vast majority of Irish people — this is based only on my perceptions — of child bearing age whose circumstances require it regard access to contraception as their basic human right. I am glad that in recent years that right has been almost completely vindicated. It was a great pity that for so long we postured morally on the international stage as being unable to assist in certain programmes while at the same time those people in Ireland who were affected by the same problem would not have listened to that rhetoric if it was applied to ourselves.

One point that must be made is that the contribution Ireland can make to the priority countries in Africa is not as great as the contribution that can be made by other countries which are richer than Ireland. However, we have an availability of manpower and womanpower to provide real assistance on the ground.

Whether through non-governmental or religious or other humanitarian agencies, this country could do more. We are not doing enough in this area.

One feature of our assistance to the Third World is that whereas in the past other countries had equivalents to the peace corps, and Scandinavian countries have Third World voluntary programmes for people to serve overseas, Ireland has been somewhat behind the door in showing inventiveness in such schemes. I am not criticising what is there because it is considerably better than what has been in the past, but if a person at the age of 18, 19 or 20 were to go to Tanzania to work on an Irish-backed programme to relieve poverty, that person should be entitled to some recognition of that when they eventually return to Ireland.

One tangible form of recognition that should be available to those people is in further education. In terms of one's usefulness to society, one's maturity and one's capacity to engage in further education, someone who has spent two years working in a programme of the type I have mentioned is much more useful than somebody who has managed to attain 600 points in their leaving certificate and who can choose the best places in our university faculties. Who is the more entitled in moral terms to the scarce resources of Irish education, a young man or woman who has matured, who has seen the real world and who has helped his or her fellow human beings in Africa or somebody who is sufficiently gifted to get a mark of 90 per cent in the honours mathematics paper in the leaving certificate? Who is more likely to turn out to be the compassionate doctor, physiotherapist or pharmacist in the final analysis, the person who has done something substantial in terms of participation in the moral order of the world or the person who has proven to the applications office in Athlone that he or she is more adept in answering mathematical problems in an examination hall?

The Minister and the Tánaiste should actively examine access to third level education to provide tangible recognition for young Irish people who have the tremendous vocation to spend some time abroad helping their fellow human beings. They should have at least as much right to enter education as the perhaps more academically bright but perhaps far less human counterparts who can achieve so many points in an examination.

If the Government committed itself to recognising service abroad in a tangible way at that level — and doubtless there are many other ways where it could be done also, such as entry to the public service and preference in other areas — and if the weight the higher education authority can give to somebody's curriculum vitae by reason of their academic achievements could be attached in real terms to those who help their fellow human beings through Third World overseas aid programmes, it would have taken a tangible step towards recognising that the world is not simply about making money, gaining points or accumulating degrees.

We have demonstrated our commitment to the enhanced structural adjustment facility's succesor the ESAFS programme, by making a £90,000 contribution this year. I notice we have also made a similar contribution to IMF activity on another front. Those are fairly small sums of money but at least they are a tangible indication and a symbol of our commitment to those programmes. In the long run, however, the point made by the Minister is sound, that is, that unless and until Ireland is demonstrated to be single-mindedly intent on achieving a contribution to the Third World in line with that of other European countries such as Scandinavian countries, we cannot really exercise very much political or moral leverage on others which is so badly needed to resolve the debt crisis.

In regard to aid for the Third World, when one sees aid programmes related to arms sales and the like — obviously Ireland has no difficulty in this area — we should use the European Union to make our point on arms sales. It is completely unacceptable that Africa, particularly sub-Saharan Africa, is the recipient of significant arms sales from the EU member states when they do not need those arms and when the effect of those arms is to produce instability, repression and slaughter. They are the tools of genocide with which, in large measure, we have force fed the Third World in the interests of subsidising armament industries in Europe. I realise it is easy for a country which has no armament industry to lecture others who have thousands of people employed in it, about their moral duties in this respect but the moral point stands notwithstanding that qualification on our lack of interest in the matter. The Government should stress at EU level that there should be a convention on arms sales to sub-Saharan Africa and the developed countries must adopt an entirely different approach to that issue and face up to the moral obligation not to fuel the engines of war, repression and genocide for the enrichment of their arms industries. To that extent, Ireland's voice should be raised even in the context of the absence of a commercial interest in the manufacture of those products.

I welcome this debate. I know other Deputies are much more au fait with the African situation than I am — Deputy Connor among others — but there is a single thread running through all these issues. The problems in Rwanda and Bosnia are not basically different. The problems in the Third World are, in the last analysis, both economic and social and form part of the geopolitical tapestry in which our decisions in relation to armament, Third World assistance, debt forgiveness and so on play a significant role. It is wrong to compartmentalise our approach into specific areas such as debt relief, armaments and human rights in a way which does not form part of a complete picture and a coherent perspective. In that context, I hope the White Paper on Foreign Policy which the Department of Foreign Affairs proposes to publish in the latter part of this year will be the first point of departure in a completely coherent and integrated approach to foreign policy and will draw together the threads of indebtedness, poverty, violence and international justice in a way our foreign policy never did.

I thank the Minister of State for the ready manner in which he agreed to take the debate today when I suggested it to him. He came back after a hectic and difficult trip to Rwanda to take the debate and his efforts should not go unnoticed. It is only right to acknowledge the steps the Government has taken to increase our official overseas development aid contribution. It has long been an issue with Members that the Government's official contribution to overseas development aid was shamefully reduced over many years. As Deputy McDowell said, it reduced our capacity to argue for a more coherent and humane approach to questions of development in developing countries. It is also necessary to make the point that aid alone is not sufficient. That is primarily why we are debating the issue today and the role of the IMF and the World Bank.

It needs to be stressed that development of the least developed countries cannot be seen primarily in macro-economic terms or in the sense of alleviating debt and so on. We must set it in the context of our global view. We must have regard to a changing world and a changing role for Ireland in the context of our EU membership. In the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Foreign Affairs I drew attention to the number of significant developments that took place in Ireland and in our foreign policy stances with very little debate. We have become observers of Western European Union, an issue which was not debated in the House but was announced outside it. There was no real debate in advance of us taking up that position. We altered the Defence Acts to permit Irish troops to become involved in UN operations irrespective of whether they were policing operations. This was done last year following a debate in the House to allow our troops to be sent to Somalia and participate in peace enforcement, an operation which was an utter disaster and which I and one or two other Deputies argued against.

There is a general change in our role under the Defence Acts which is not specifically related to Somalia but opens the door for the Irish Defence Forces to become involved in matters related to European defence and international commitments under the UN.

The other change is in the role of the Defence Forces. I dealt in detail with this matter at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. The role of the Defence Forces was changed by a simple announcement last September when the Dáil was not sitting and it was not possible to debate the matter. The implications of the change for our future policy have not been discussed since in a substantive way.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs announced he will publish a White Paper on Foreign Policy, on Ireland's role specifically within the EU and our membership of the UN. I welcome that although I would have preferred to have a Green Paper published in advance which might have generated more discussion. This kind of discussion will be necessary before 1996 when one of the principal issues in the Intergovernmental Conference of which Ireland will have the Presidency will be the question of a common foreign security and defence policy with the possibility of it developing into common defence, in other words, the physical creation of a European defence force either through having a European army or the co-operation of European armies in some other form. This is taking shape in the Eurocorps established by Germany and France.

This may seem unrelated to the question of Third World debt or development but it is not. In a speech by the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the Association of European Journalists on 22 April 1994 he spoke about the White Paper on Foreign Policy and the issues to be addressed. He said:

In an increasingly interdependent world, our long term economic prosperity crucially depends on open and expanding world markets. We have every reason to be satisfied with the Uruguay Round negotiations, which were formally endorsed in Marrakesh exactly one week ago; the challenge we now face is to ensure that Irish exporters can take maximum advantage of this increasingly open trading environment.

On the question of development co-operation — obviously I am only quoting excerpts from his speech and I hope I am not doing him an injustice — he states:

I propose to review our positions on some of these key issues in the White Paper. In particular, I intend the Paper to address some of the more complex questions which affect development co-operation policy in the world today and which make it such an important arm of foreign policy. We need to explore such issues as the relationship between aid and arms sales and, as I have mentioned, between the giving of aid and human rights. We must also consider the implications for countries which are so crippled by debt that aid flows have little benefit and ask ourselves what value aid has for countries whose access to the international market place is hindered by seemingly insuperable obstacles.

There is a fundamental contradiction between the Government's plans in regard to development and the extent to which it believes Ireland's prosperity depends on GATT and the statement by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs that we depend on open and expanding world markets.

The problem is — this is one of the issues relating to the debt — that the principle of expansion and open, untrammelled world markets is one of the major difficulties faced by these countries: it is impossible for them to develop sustainable economies or food self-sufficiency when they are essentially forced by the developed world to produce goods for export so that they can pay their debts. We say there should be a writing off of debt, sustainable development in the Third World and that we need to be concerned about the environment. Yet at international level within the GATT negotiations, the United Nations and the European Union we are supporting, almost without question, policies which contradict and are in direct conflict with what is generally believed to be the only way in which the vast bulk of the population on the globe can survive. These appalling conditions in which people in the Third World live are created by the market policies driven by the World Bank and the IMF.

This is why I have drawn attention to the need to address clearly, distinctly and closely Ireland's foreign policy and the White Paper. This debate does not relate simply to the way in which the Government can overcome the delicate issue of neutrality and get off the hook in terms of how it is seen by traditionalists and the obvious move towards becoming a member of a defence forum in the European Union. If the policy in this area goes in the same direction as that in which NATO and the Western European Union are already headed it will have more to do with building a European army than with tackling the causes of instability which, fundamentally, are poverty and marginalisation.

Deputy McDowell said there was very little difference in essence between the conflicts in Bosnia and those in Rwanda or Somalia, which is true. Anyone who examines these conflicts will see that they are caused by abject poverty, a fear of poverty or a belief among ethnic or religious groups and minorities that some other group within their state or community enjoys a greater degree of economic advantage primarily because of the make-up of the Government or some other factor. Instability is caused mainly by marginalisation and poverty. Obviously the world is in a mess. I recently went to see Juno and the Paycock in which the character Boyle says “The world is in a state of chassis”.

It always will be so.

I would not be so pessimistic. If we were we might as well put on our good clothes and head off to enjoy the sun, if it is still shining.

I think Boyle was right.

We need to have some hope that it is possible, through human endeavour, to change the conditions in which people live.

This is an excellent report and I congratulate the chairperson of the committee, Deputy Pat Gallagher, for the work he put into it and for taking the initiative to have it prepared and ready for debate in this House. The statistics in the report are horrific. Statistics on their own often tend to be cold and dry and it is hard to put flesh and bone on them. However, in any debate on Third World debt and its size and effects, it must be borne in mind that we are talking about human beings who are being starved as a result of it, dying from malnutrition and from preventable diseases: they are the victims of the floods and other disasters which are primarily caused by the failure or inability of Government to invest in infrastructure. These disasters — they are often referred to as natural disasters but I believe they have much to do with the way in which the Earth is being abused — are made worse by a lack of infrastructure in the countries where they occur. For that reason alone this House needs to be concerned.

It is impossible to conceptualise the figure of $1.7 trillion — $1,700,000 million. The Third World debt is now 60 per cent higher than at the start of the crisis in the early 1980s. The problem has been getting worse. Much of the money which is due cannot be repaid and accumulates as arrears. This is crazy. Even if we were to accept the view, of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs that our prosperity depends on expanding markets it would make sense for this country to ensure, on a purely pragmatic basis, that the debt was wiped out so that the people there would have money to spend, in a position to improve the quality of their lifestyle and disposable income to expend on other goods. On a purely pragmatic basis it makes sense to address the issue.

Much of the background to this problem has already been dealt with. I do not propose to go into it in any great depth other than to highlight a few of the points made in the report. For example, on page 4, there is a paragraph headed "Debt and the North/South Relationship" which begins by saying:

Efforts to repay the debt result in significant transfers of resources from Southern to Northern countries.

Figures are given showing total Western aid to the Third World at $57 billion in 1991 while debt repayments, that is, comprised of interest and capital, amounted to almost three times the former, at $143 billion in the same year. Therefore it will clearly be seen that putting in $57 billion in 1991 and sucking out $143 billion in the same year is crazy. The report goes on to say:

It may be useful to look at the situation facing one of Ireland's ODA partners. Zambia received $600 million in aid from Northern countries in 1991, $3 million of which came from Ireland. Zambia returned £500 million in debt repayments thus cancelling out 80 per cent of the value of the aid.

It does not make sense for this country to do other than support the wiping out of this debt. However, what has been drawn to my attention in relation to this debt is the position of the European Commission, who declare that they have no role to play. In fact they went to a considerable amount of trouble to produce a document — if I can find my reference to it — in moving towards, I think it was, a development programme up to the year 2000. When the question of debt was raised in the European Parliament and what would be the role of the Commission, they pointed out that they had no role in the matter, that attempts by them to take a stance on behalf of the European Union on the cancellation of debt was vetoed by some member states of the European Union as being outside their competence, despite the fact that some of the heaviest debts of the Third World are owed to members of the European Union.

This is an issue that needs to be taken up by the Irish Government within the European Council, not only in terms of having our representatives at the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank make our case, but also that we should make our case on the cancellation of debt within the European Union itself, specifically within the European Council. We have a very able Commissioner, former Deputy Pádraig Flynn, who has had a Damascus-like conversion to socialism since going to Brussels which he might extend to pressing the question of the cancellation of Third World debt. Such would make sense in pure economic terms apart altogether from the prime concern of the humanitarian issue.

Much material on this issue has been supplied to Members of this House, much more in the past 12 months than had been supplied previously by non-governmental organisations. That is to be welcomed. I have already expressed my thanks to Deputy Gallagher of Laoighis-Offaly, Chairman of the Sub-Committee on Development Co-Operation. Perhaps the real reason this report is before this House is that the NGOs outside this House banded together in a debt coalition, made an issue of this and submitted representations to Members of this House so that it eventually landed on the agenda of the Sub-Committee on Development Co-Operation and has been taken to this point. But a report is only a report, recommendations are only recommendations unless pressed by Government. Unless we receive reports back from the Minister and our representatives on the various bodies dealing with this issue, specifically the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, we shall be unable to take the matter further. Indeed, a very valuable role the Sub-Committee on Development Co-Operation of this House could play would be to invite the Irish representatives on these bodies to come and talk to us, explain what they are doing, how they are operating, lobbying, the progress they are making, make that at least an annual event so that we would have a continuous picture of what progrss is being made. It is one thing for us to stand up in this Chamber and speak about the importance of the issues concerned, or about the horrors caused resulting from the debt, but unless we pursue the matter consistently and with some tenacity, it will disappear from the agenda yet again, there being so many other issues competing for people's time in this House.

I want to make one or two further points before concluding. One relates to Rwanda. One issue raised at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs was that of an air strip for Ngagara which, as far as I know, is in Burundi; I am not great at geography.

Tanzania.

In any event, the point was made very strongly by Concern representatives that one of the most useful things Ireland could do to deal with the crisis of refugees pouring out of Rwanda would be to assist in the development of the airstrip at Ngagara.

I notice from a reply given in this House last week that apparently the Government has decided that that is not the manner in which it will assist. Would the Minister indicate to the House the basis of that decision? It seems to me that an organisation like Concern would hardly impress on us the importance of that issue, given their knowledge of the position on the ground, if it were not necessary and desirable for that to be done. Since the Government have taken a decision not to proceed with that proposal perhaps the Minister would indicate whether there are other practical proposals of an infrastructural nature the Government has taken up.

In the appalling prevailing circumstances in Rwanda it seems to me that one of the easiest things to do is find a couple of hundred thousand pounds and say: "There you are. We have done our bit". I am not for a moment suggesting that is the approach of the Minster of State. The people out on the street, those to whom I speak about the issue, would like to see something concrete or physical being done in terms of help being given. While everybody is very proud of our aid workers — indeed not just those of this country but others as well; we must not be too chauvinistic when it comes to the matter of aid or believe, as the old story goes, that the only people in Heaven are Irish Catholics — there are many other people out there giving aid and assistance.

There is a Dutchman in charge of the Concern project in Ngagara.

I should like to hear the Minister outline what practical assistance has been given. No more than anybody else in this House, I do not have instant solutions to the problems obtaining in Rwanda, Bosnia or any of these troubled spots——

The Deputy has two minutes remaining.

——other than to stress that we shall have never-ending recurrences of those crises and massacres unless we take seriously the advice we are being given by people who daily work on the ground in these countries. Unless we tackle the fundamental issues of poverty, of people's right to life, health and the services they require to lead a normal human existence, we will not be providing any solution. Simply responding to crises as they arise is not sufficient. Policies must be put in place at Irish, European and United Nations level which in the long term will seek to bring everybody who lives on the face of this globe to a sustainable level of human existence.

I thank Deputy Patrick Gallagher and his colleagues on the sub-committee concerned with Third World co-operation in the developing world for the expeditious manner in which they approached this problem. In a matter of months he and his committee have produced a very succinct set of basic recommendations in a well drafted report that does not require much reading but is straight to the point. Unless we approach the problems of the developing world in this way we are going nowhere. There has been enough rhetoric about it and enough time spent on what are the appropriate ideologies in regard to particular countries in order to deal with their problems.

In fact, one of the bedevilling features in the whole area of sub-Saharan Africa has been the conflict of ideologies. First, Marxism was supposed to supply all the answers and later capitalism was supposed to supply all the answers, when what is required is a social approach based on practicalities. The basic issue here is that the Third World debt, set out in paragraph 2 of the report, now stands at $1.7 trillion, 60 per cent higher than at the start of the crisis in the early 1980s. That has been caused by the increase in oil prices in the 1970s and the rise in interest rates in the 1980s. The question is what is to be done now. The latest proposal advanced is what is known as the Trinidad terms, whereby it is recommended by a number of countries that the debt owing to the IMF and the World Bank be reduced by two-thirds for the low income countries and rescheduling should take place in regard to the other countries at a higher level.

Even that modest proposal which was supported by Ireland — our committee asked the Minister for Finance to support it — has been rejected by some countries, including Japan. It is not just western countries that are involved; many Third World countries are not looking after their neighbouring countries in what is rapidly becoming the Fourth World. The new emerging capitalist economies of the Far East are included in this, as well as the countries of what used to be called the Western World, in regard to their obligations and social responsibilities to their less well off neighbours in the developing world who do not have oil and other resources but have teeming multitudes of people living in starvation and where there has been a breakdown of normal society.

It is important to remember that what is required is a global approach. Here I go along with the views expressed by Deputy De Rossa, and also expressed 20 years ago when the late Willy Brandt introduced his report concerning North-South co-operation. If we cannot appeal to the humanitarian instincts of the developed world, let us at least appeal to their practical instincts. It is in the interests of the developed world to have a thriving Third and Fourth World. It is in the interests of the northern hemisphere that the southern hemisphere prospers, because that is where the potential markets are. If the First World to which we belong, is to survive, that is the area that will be needed soon. I welcome this document's approach and its basic recommendations because it is very practical.

I am disappointed by the introductory statement by the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, in which there is a certain dismissive attitude — this is strict financial orthodoxy — because the main recommendation in the report is that the debt to sub-Saharan Africa, which is mainly a Third World IMF debt, not a commercial bank debt should be written off. That makes great sense from everybody's point of view. It is evident that if you go through each of the countries in sub-Saharan Africa — I am not talking about the problem in South Africa or the Caribbean — there is no hope of the debt being paid. All it represents is a substantial drag that is preventing development in these countries. It is not the answer to say, as the Minister said in his speech, that:

The IMF, like any other financial institution, requires a solid base of reserves if it is to continue trading.

This sentence is included as an objection to the writing off of sub-Saharan Africa's debt to the IMF. The IMF is not any other financial institution. That does not fit in with an earlier constructive paragraph, which I welcome, in the Minister's speech, which reads:

The need to integrate developing countries including the poorer among them into the world economy is an issue which, I believe, calls for a new approach. Following the successful conclusion of the Uruguay Round there is a need for the new World Trade Organisation, on which we agreed in Marrakesh should co-operate on a basis of equality with the IMF and the World Bank, to be given a more focused sense of direction. Surely it is necessary for a dialogue to begin at once between these three great economic organisations to consider how together they can improve the economic and trade prospects of developing countries.

That is the type of thinking with which I totally agree, not the concluding part of the Minister's contribution, which is entirely orthodox and not geared to face up to the problem. We must wipe out the debt in regard to sub-Saharan Africa. I appeal to the pragmatic bankers instincts. When banks have a debt which they regard as a bad debt they write it off and this is done every day of the week. As there is no prospect of the IMF-World Bank recovering that money, now is the time to write it off and thus enable the countries in sub-Saharan Africa to make a fresh start.

Another practical reason for writing off the debt is the possibility of a new democratic stable future emerging in South Africa. If that happens, with the resources available there — the expertise, the mineral wealth and, if properly organised, the new democratic partnership now underway for the next four to five years — and the developing South Africa accelerating at a fast pace, with the goodwill of the international community, they can provide the engine of growth required in all the neighbourng states right up to the Sahara. Everything is in place for that to happen, as happened in the case of Germany and France in the European Community.

Now that the position in South Africa is stable it can provide the engine of growth in sub-Saharan Africa but this all depends on the burden on these states, accrued during the 1970s and 1980s, being eased as it bears no relation to present day developmental requirements. With all due respect, most of these states were held back by outdated Marxist notions of total control over the economy involving the establishment of futile enterprises which were a waste of money. What is required is a new form of social capitalism within the region as well as a more democratic and enlightened approach. A new vision for the future would encompass the states to the north of South Africa being freed of the incubus of debt repayment and being able to make a fresh start.

That is the reason we cannot be niggardly and base our approach on structural adjustment programmes, debt restructuring and the cancellation of some loans only. There is a need for change in this. We should liquidate the entire debt in sub-Saharan Africa and state that we do not regard the IMF-World Bank as "any other ordinary financial institution". We have a serious social responsibility to these countries. As Deputy De Rossa rightly said, we need to help them develop their economies to ensure world peace and remove the threat of conflict. I am not going to refer to the position in Rwanda and Burundi where horrific problems are being experienced relating to tribal conflicts. Some of these problems will not be eliminated by way of economic measures alone but at least we can do something and take some steps in the right direction by not engaging in a futile debate and by doing something practical.

No one can tell me that the World Bank-International Monetary Fund cannot write off a bad debt; banks have been writing off bad debts since they were formed, it is an integral part of banking. This major banking organisation has a social responsibility and it should write off this debt. Under the Trinidad Terms it would agree to write off two-thirds of the debt of low income developing countries. It should go the whole hog and take the dramatic step of writing off the entire debt by selling 10 per cent of its gold reserve as pointed out in the report prepared by Deputy Gallagher. This approach merits examination given the statistics outlined in paragraphs 12 and 13 of the report.

The report states that the reality of the transfers of resources from southern to northern countries to repay the debt challenges the widely held northern perception that the flow of resources is going south as aid. Total western aid to the Third World in 1991 amounted to $57 billion while debt repayments totalled $143 billon. This gives a ratio of 3:1 and accentuates the point that it is futile for the banks to demand money from these countries. It makes nonsense of our approach. This has had a devastating effect particularly in sub-Saharan Africa. Let us not mince our words: this is nothing short of a scandal. It is outrageous that countries such as Japan have opposed any minor amelioration under the Trinidad Terms.

The report sets out the facts and merits examination and immediate action. There is no mystery about its recommendations, the main one being that the principal proposal under the Trinidad Terms should be accepted immediately. We should then proceed to write-off the entire debt. This would be in the interests of the donor countries. Otherwise, they would quickly find themselves in an economic swamp. Given the rate of expansion in the Far East, particularly in mainland China which has potential for development, apart from the development that will inevitably take place in eastern Europe, there will be no markets for their exports. The First World would be marginalised and unable to sell its products in large parts of the world.

I am leaving South America out of the equation but the reality is that sub-Saharan Africa cannot continue to bear the burden of debt repayment which bears no relation to present day circumstances. These countries should be given an opportunity to make a fresh start now that the ideological nonsense has been discarded and a new partnership government is in place in South Africa.

I agree with the points made about Rwanda. The European Union can play a role in regard to arm exports to sub-Saharan Africa in particular. This is not for America and Japan, rather it is a matter for the European Union which comprises some of the largest arms exporters in the world. This matter must be placed at the top of the agenda. As Deputy McDowell said, the structures of the United Nations should also be reformed and a sub-committee is examining them at present. It is unable to cope within its present structure with the problems in Rwanda and Burundi. Its focus must be widened. Its present narrow focus on peace-keeping will work only in places such as the Lebanon and Cyprus where a peace line has been agreed between the parties. The recent problems in Rwanda and Burundi can be resolved only by a United Nations with new structures, a strategic concept, a section concerned only with preventive diplomacy and forces available to go in in advance of conflicts getting out of hand. Yugoslavia is a classic example. Following the death of Tito it was obvious that Yugoslavia would collapse, but preventive measures were not implemented. That type of situation will arise in other countries unless the United Nations adopts a new strategy to deal in advance with such problems.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss the valuable report which the Joint Committee has prepared on the debt problem. I am particularly concerned to help develop Ireland's role in trying to alleviate this major problem.

In my capacity as Governor for Ireland of the World Bank Group and the International Monetary Fund, I made particular reference to this problem at last year's annual meeting of the two bodies when I called for a debt relief package for Africa, and the other poorest regions in the world at least in line with the so-called Trinidad Terms. These terms would mean, among other things, that two-thirds of the debt of low income developing countries would be written off. Unfortunately, this proposal has not yet been accepted. I very much regret this.

I have taken every opportunity to stress my concern in this area. I recently met representatives from the Debt and Development Coalition. This group made clear its first hand experience of the adverse impact of the debt crisis in the poorest countries in which it has operated. I am very happy to hear of its experience to better inform me on the policies of the World Bank and the IMF.

I was pleased last month to welcome a World Bank vice-president to Ireland to begin a dialogue with the Irish non-governmental organisations on the role of the World Bank. I made clear at that seminar that it was time for other initiatives. I will press for this again when I meet the managing director of the International Monetary Fund Mr. Michel Camdessus, when he visits Ireland next week. He will be here at the invitation of the Debt and Development Coalition to address a seminar on the debt crisis. I know that the proceedings of this seminar will be watched closely by Members of the Oireachtas, particularly those on the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs.

I will not repeat points made earlier by my colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, on the debt crisis in his response to the very welcome report of the Joint Committee. I would, however, like to comment on some of the recommendations of the report in the area for which I am responsible in Ireland, namely, World Bank and IMF matters.

The report has quite rightly pointed to the continued need to address the debt burden of the severely-indebted low income countries, most of which are in sub-Saharan Africa. The World Bank and the IMF have consistently called for efforts to grant significant debt stock reduction for these countries — in some cases deeper than the present 50 per cent under the enhanced Toronto Terms granted by the Paris Club. However, the full benefits of any debt stock reduction can only be realised in a policy framework that removes other obstacles to productive investment, growth and structural reform. Moreover, these countries also need continued access to new concessional finance for their adjustment and investment needs. It is important, therefore, that debt stock reduction be part of an overall co-operation strategy that ensures the benefits of current debt reduction as well as new concessional flows.

A second important issue raised by the report concerns the impact of current debt servicing burdens on the balance of payments and investment strategies of these countries. I understand that for most severely indebted low income countries, the net transfer of resources from largely official sources has been positive throughout the difficult decade of the debt service. Indeed a primary objective of the official strategy for aiding the poorest countries during this period has been to ensure that they have access to external financing on appropriate concessional terms to supplement their limited savings. In 1993, the net tansfers to the poorest countries were $16.1 billion or 9.34 per cent of GNP. These positive net transfers have been achieved through a combination of new flows and of debt relief from bilateral creditors both within the forum of the Paris Club and through the ODA.

A third issue raised by the report is the action that the World Bank and the IMF have taken to help the poorest countries to deal with their debt overhang. In this regard I would point to the enhanced structural adjustment facility of the International Monetary Fund which has proved to be a very effective mechanism for providing concessional finance to Africa and the IDA debt reduction facility, which provides official grants for the reduction of an IDA-only country's commercial bank debt. As of December 1993, the facility had been used to extinguish $623 million of principal in commercial debt. Roughly $44.6 million of IBRD's contribution, as well as $48.4 million in bilateral donor funds, had been utilised to finance operations under the facility. Under the fifth dimension a portion of IDA reflows have been used to provide supplementary adjustment credits to countries that are borrowers from IDA only but have outstanding IBRD claims. Through annual allocations — in proportion to interest payments due to the IBRD — the supplementary IDA credits have helped ease the debt service burden of eligible IDA-only borrowers which are undertaking adjustment programmes. A total of SDR 512 million has been allocated under the programme, more than 90 per cent of the eligible IBRD interest payment due. The special programme for Africa, which is a unique aid co-ordination mechanism for assisting the poorest countries in sub-Saharan Africa supported by the IMF, the World Bank and 16 other bilateral and multilateral donors, has provided $33 billion in concessional debt relief and balance of payments assistance since 1988.

I would like to comment on the role of the IMF, an agency set up to provide lending for countries with balance of payments problems. In this role it both lends to countries and engages in surveillance, and approves programmes which they set up to overcome their balance of payments problems.

Debtor countries are encouraged to restructure their economies, and the restructuring will frequently emphasise production for export. However, the fund systematically emphasises the adequacy of social safety nets in its role, and tries to make sure that programmes incorporate the needs of viable long term economic development. It cannot, however, manage these economies in detail. The political choices of countries must remain their own.

I would also like to comment on the possibility of debt forgiveness by the World Bank and the IMF. I am not sure if this would work or be in the interests of all the borrowing countries. We should consider, for example, how it might adversely affect the World Bank's efforts.

Rather than focusing on rescheduling and pulling back on investments, the Bank continues to provide investment and structural adjustment loans to the biggest debtors. This new lending is essential since it supports continued economic reforms and sectoral growth in these countries.

Reduction in Bank claims — or in the interest rate on those claims — would not make a significant difference in the debt service position of the middle or low income countries. In most middle income countries, IBRD interest payments were less than 3 per cent of exports in 1991; for low income countries, IDA charges are typically less than 2 per cent of exports. Hence, rescheduling or forgiving Bank loans to these borrowers would not generate significant additional cash flow relief.

Unlike most official credits extended by Governments, IBRD loans are funded by borrowings in the capital markets. A factor that contributes to IBRD's AAA rating, and, therefore, helps the Bank to borrow at low rates that are passed on to borrowers, is its policy of not rescheduling interest or principal payments on its loans. Unfortunately, even minor increases in the Bank's borrowing costs would have significant effects on developing country finances. For example, every ten basis point increase in the IBRD's borrowing costs would force the Bank's borrowers to pay an extra $100 million of interest each year.

In regard to the IMF I consider it to be a lender of last resort for many countries and it would be wrong and counter-productive to attempt to put the IMF on the same basis as other creditors. Any action to do so undermines the credit which would be available for other developing countries. Some potential for use of gold stock does exist, but one should bear in mind that all valuations in relation to gold and any attempts to mobilise it would be highly complex and would not realise the huge sums that have been suggested from some sources.

Turning briefly to other recommendations I assure Members that I will continue to recommend greater openness and accountability by the IMF and the World Bank group in its dealings with the public particularly stressing the need for cultivating meaningful ongoing local participation in projects. In fairness the World Bank has tried to recognise the importance of accountability and transparency in the development process. The bank already discloses a great deal of project and sector information and encourages borrower governments to release as much information as possible on bank projects and programmes in an effort to increase local participation in decision-making. In the International Monetary Fund the question of accountability is under discussion and further transparency in documentation is being looked at as part or that. Ultimately, however, this will depend on the agreement of governments which are members of the fund, including those of the debtor countries.

I welcome the World Bank's latest efforts on poverty reduction and look forward to more progress to tackle the frightening statistics of poverty in the developing world.

Ireland remains a firm supporter of the IMF and the World Bank which continue to have a significant positive impact on the economies and the people of the world. Both institutions have recognised their mistakes in the past and accept new challenges each year. Ireland has to be realistic about our contribution to these significant world issues bearing in mind that we are not a creditor nation. However, we have a special role with the unique contribution which Irish aid agencies and Irish people are making in the developing world.

I thank the Deputies who have contributed to this debate and the work of the committee who have shown their support by attending the conference. It was unfortunate that the visit of Mr. Camdessus to Ireland did not fall on a more suitable day but I will on their behalf express their views to him.

I cannot offer any quick or simple solutions, only my determination to continue to press Ireland's particular concerns in whatever forum is available to me. Let me assure Members who have worked very hard in this regard that I will continue to do that on their behalf.

(Laoighis-Offaly): I thank my colleagues on the sub-committee on development co-operation, the chairman, Deputy Lenihan and members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs who assisted in the production of this report. There was a certain urgency in our consideration of this matter as we were anxious to have the report available to Members of the Oireachtas in advance of the spring meeting of the International Monetary Fund and I acknowledge their support in helping us achieve that. I pay particular tribute to the debt and development coalition. This report would not have been available today if it had not been for their great assistance and the quality of their submissions, which certainly made our work easier. I commend them on their work and urge them to continue the campaign which began in the second half of last year. It is very good that an umbrella organisations in which many NGOs, community organisations and missionary groups are represented can achieve so much in a limited period. They have ensured that attention is focused on this issue and many campaigning groups would be envious of their success. It is particularly significant that the Minister and the Department of Finance have facilitated them and they have had the opportunity to debate this issue with senior representatives of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. I urge them to continue their work and assure them of our continued support for highlighting this issue.

The debt burden borne by the poorest developing countries is crippling and affects the lives of their people and the environment in which they live. Ireland, as a member of the European Union, the United Nations and International organisations such as the IMF can play an important role in highlighting and identifying the problems and promoting solutions.

The issue of debt is tied up with two other important issues: aid and trade. Aid is becoming disguised more and more in the form of exports from the north to the souuth of the globe. In many cases, the exports are very much in the interests of donor countries. We must continue to promote the increasing use of non-tied forms of aid that respects sovereignty, has an element of human rights compliance and, in particular, encourages the promotion of democracy in recipient countries. I am glad that the type of aid that this country gives directly is very much along the lines I recommended. However, we need to use our voice in the international fora, of which we are a member to try to encourage and promote this type of aid among other countries.

Trade is closely related to debt. Ireland, as a member of the developed world did not cover itself in glory in this respect during the GATT negotiations. We adopted a self-interested approach. The joint committee considered the agricultural aspects of the GATT agreement but we did not have an opportunity to voice our concerns on trade with developing countries before the GATT agreement was signed. No one could make a case for Mr. Peter Sutherland becoming President of the European Commission on the basis of what he did for developing countries during the GATT negotiations. We should not regard the matter as settled and let it rest.

The artificial depression of basic commodity prices continues and many European Union policies on export assistance contribute to this problem for developing countries. Many developing countries without an indigenous energy source face an increasing gap between the price of their exports and the cost of importing energy which they need to engage on the path of development recommended to them through the policies promoted by the IMF and the World Bank.

The issues of aid and trade are very closely related to debt. In servicing their debt burden many developing countries face a stark choice between survival and nutrition or debt repayment. The recommendations in the report are clear and achievable and I will address them in greater detail at a later stage. Now I wish to make a special plea on behalf of the continent of Africa. Africa faces a serious food and water shortage, in addition to an AIDS crisis. A strategy for that continent must be adopted by the European Union, the United Nations and other international organisations.

I was glad the Minister of State addressed the particular concerns of the Tanzanian Government. Tanzania needs help immediately. It has not closed its borders to refugees from other countries. It accepted refugees from the Uganda unrest a number of years ago. It is now accepting refugees from the Rwandan crisis. If our worst fears are realised and there is further unrest in Burundi it will, as it has done in the past, accept refugees from that country.

The international community has a moral responsibility to help the Tanzanian Government immediately. Unfortunately, the IMF and the World Bank have favoured Kenya over Tanzania because Kenya was a greater promoter of private enterprise as opposed to State enterprise. They imposed stringent conditions on Tanzania which were not imposed on countries like Kenya. Tanzania has expended more on refugees from neighbouring countries than on debt service. That contribution and active responsibility of the Tanzanian Government should be recognised by the international financial institutions and the world community and an immediate programme to respond to this should be put in place.

As the debt problem was outlined in statistical terms by many previous speakers, I will not repeat the statistics. Although the exports of real resources from Africa in debt service is growing and the level of debt is rising, the problem can still be addressed. Problems do not impinge on people if they conceive them to be in the order of millions, billions and trillions; therefore, we must bring home to people that the problem can be addressed by a realistic course of action. We should stress also to the Irish public, who are very generous in giving aid to developing countries, that the level of transfer from North to South is still very much to the advantage of the North.

Zambia is a good example. We have close relations with Zambia through our overseas development assistance programme. Zambia receives approximately $600 million in aid on an annual basis. It repays $500 million to donor countries, thus 80 per cent of the value of the assistance it gets is wiped out in repayments. We must make clear the scale of the problem, its effects and the manner in which it can be addressed. The pressure to repay the debt devastates the lives of ordinary people in southern countries, especially those in sub-Saharan Africa. In many of those countries much more is spent on debt service than on the basic needs of health and education.

The environmental degradation resulting from such policies has been mentioned and their effects on women and children. I wish to mention their effects on food security in those countries. Under the structural adjustment programme, which many of those countries must adopt in order to get IMF and World Bank support, food security is relegated to second place behind the need to meet debt repayments. The European Union should not ask those countries to bear that burden. One of the main planks of the European Union is the Common Agricultural Policy, which receives the greatest share of European funding. One of the main reasons that policy was set up was to allow the European Community establish food security. Now that the European Union has achieved that security and become an exporter of food, why should it be a party to preventing other countries from adopting a basic expression of their sovereignty, namely, the establishment of food security for their people.

The IMF and the World Bank play two roles in regard to the debt problem. They are creditors and more importantly, managers of the debt repayment process for private creditors and individual Government creditors in northern countries. Historically the manner in which private debt was taken on as a responsibility of inter-governmental organisations was mainly as a result of the Brady plan. Many who said that private enterprise and initiative should deal with the needs of the world were the first to cry for assistance from the international organisations when it appeared their financial institutions might be in trouble. In the debt management strategy the IMF and the World Bank impose conditions on developing countries so that they can meet their debt repayments. There is little respect for the sovereignty of those countries. I do not accept the argument that the IMF and the World Bank cannot be too stringent on the social dimensions of adjustments. They do not have much regard for the sovereignty of those countries when they put the original programmes in place. While they force countries to restructure their economies to produce goods for export to increase their foreign exchange earnings, those countries must cut Government expenditure on basic needs such as health and education. To date little account has been taken of the welfare of the citizens of those countries, despite some adjustments in recent years. This type of intervention could be classed as a new form of colonialism and imperialism, from which many countries in the developing world worked so long to shake free.

During the recent visit by a deputation from the World Bank to Dublin, one of the members of that deputation took up the issue of section 15 of the report with me, namely, that debtor countries have been forced to adopt such policies to qualify for new loans or rescheduling of existing loans. He asserted that was no longer the policy of the IMF and the World Bank. If that is the case, I welcome the change. In recent years while the World Bank may have realised it has social obligations as well as strictly economic ones, the social dimensions of adjustments introduced in its programmes designed to protect the poorest members of the community have not worked. They were intended to protect the unemployed and poor people from the imposition of charges for health and education services. However, it has been proven, particularly by the NGOs working in developing countries, that the social dimensions of adjustments were not properly designed or adequately funded. They were poorly implemented and failed in their basic aim, namely, to provide a safety net.

The Trinidad terms have been mentioned and I will not go into the detail of them. I urge the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State to use all avenues open to them to continue to promote the adoption of those terms by the international community. That is a matter to which our sub-committee and joint committee will return to address.

I wish to address the recommendations in the report and the comments on them made by the Minister of State and the Minister for Finance. The recommendations were threefold. We recommended a change in the role of the IMF and the World Bank. We argued those institutions should take the lead in making the case for debt relief through the promotion of the adoption of the Trinidad terms and a new developmental strategy to meet human needs rather than maximising debt collection. We recommended that the policies of the World Bank and the IMF should be reformed in respect of accountability and the operation of the structural dimensions of adjustment. I am glad to note the support of the Minister for Finance for this recommendation. As this is the 50th anniversary of the IMF, I urge that at its annual general meeting Ireland should co-operate and work with other countries to ensure that the reform we recommended is high on the agenda of that meeting.

I do not agree with the contention that the sale of the gold stocks would not achieve the aim which we intend. For the poorest countries to achieve the economic development which the IMF and World Bank say they should achieve, it is necessary that their debts be wiped out. I am not hung up on the sale of 10 per cent of the gold stocks. What we pointed out in our report is that the IMF holds $36 billion in gold reserves and that the total exposure of the fund in Africa amounts to only 10 per cent of this reserve. Some of it could be sold off on the world market. Gold is used as security by the IMF, but I do not think that the sale of an amount of up to 10 per cent would affect its overall security position. It would strain credibility to ask us to believe that this would substantially affect the security position of an organisation that is essentially underwritten by world Governments.

Reference was made to the effect on the world gold market of this proposed sell off. The world gold market is subject to a great amount of fluctuation on an annual basis. This has been more so the case since the Soviet Union collapsed and many of the newly independent republics flooded the world market with gold and other precious commodities. It is over-simplifying things to say that it would distort the world gold market to too great an extent. However, I am not tied to that strategy. What we are trying to get across is that some radical measure needs to be adopted to wipe out the debt of the poorest countries so that they can make a fresh start. We have asked that a special fund be created to cancel Africa's debt. We suggested the selling off of the gold stocks as one way in which it might be done. However, if other ways can be found we would support them.

I appreciate the co-operation of the person who tried to push this through and of the other Deputies for their contributions to this debate. I look forward to us continuing our deliberations in an effort to ensure that the most needy countries in the developing world are given a decent opportunity to make a new start for their people.

We all recall too vividly the concerns expressed inside and outside this House in the 1980s when there was a possibility that it would be necessary to call in the World Bank to help Ireland solve its indebtedness, which had been caused by the profligacy of the late 1970s and early 1980s, and the newspaper articles that spelt out what kind of structural adjustment programmes might be put in place if the World Bank had to come to our aid. Thankfully, that did not happen and we did not become a Third World country in that sense.

Today's debate helps to highlight what essentially is at the root of the lack of any sustainable development particularly in sub-Saharan Africa but also in many developing countries. I pay tribute to Deputy Pat Gallagher and his sub-committee of the Foreign Affairs Committee on bringing forward this report on debt management, pulling together the various elements of this crisis that is occurring in so many of the developing countries and in stimulating us here to recognise that although we ourselves are not lending in the same way to Third World countries, we do have a role in highlighting the fact that it is as if the aid moneys going to those countries were going into a sieve or colander — some of the aid sticks but a great deal slips down through the holes of that colander. The sub-Saharan African states contain the poorest, least developed and lowest growing countries in the world and there is no doubt we now accept that the major problem facing those countries is the huge burden of external debt. It is as well for us to remember the magnitude of size of these debts. It is estimated that in 1989 the 45 countries of the regions of sub-Saharan Africa owed a total of $147 billion to foreign governments, to private lenders and to international financial institutions. Twenty-four of the severely indebted low income countries, those with below $500 or less per head per annum, had total debts of $102 billion. The total debt of the 23 lowest income countries was equal to 106 per cent of the total value of goods and services produced by them in 1989.

When I began in 1981 to take an interest in the issues of the developing world, I entered into that area of policy with a certain amount of expectation and hope that even as our programme grew through the 1980s — unfortunately in the late 1980s it began to stagnate and fall off — the money we and many other countries were putting into the developing world would by the mid-1990s see some element of improvement. It is not all depressing. It is not all disastrous. There are people now alive because of that kind of development aid. However, there are many more who have suffered atrociously because of the high indebtedness; despite the putting in of much money, much more has gone out. It is now calculated — and it is highlighted in Deputy Gallagher's report — that the indebtendness of the low income countries is now $1,703 billion, a figure that I cannot comprehend. I have never seen $1,703 billion in any one place. I cannot comprehend that scale of money. Despite the fact that there have been certain renegotiations on debts, this kind of debt repayment is still there and it is back-breaking for these countries. It is reckoned that as long as that continues we are throwing good money after bad. The debt repayments for the 23 highly indebted countries are now over $3 billion, but they would have been over $6 billion in the early 1990s if there had not been debt cancellations and rescheduling of debt. These figures have to be read into the record but they leave us all feeling totally helpless. Even when one recognises what has happened under Lomé IV and what we had to do just to tackle structural adjustments to pay these debts, the figures are frightening.

The Commission's involvement in adjustment started in 1988 with its participation in the World Bank-sponsored special programmes. At that stage the Commission contributed 560 million ECU in respect of import support programmes. This is because these countries, even with increased production, were producing only to pay their debts. They were not producing to upgrade the standard of living for their people, to get a better amount of food for their people annually or to give better educational services. They were producing purely to pay their debts. As chairman of the former Overseas Development Aid Committee, I witnessed in very poor areas of Africa food-growing projects where people were hungry but could not eat the food they were producing because they were producing it to sell to the markets so that it could be taken by the Government to sell to pay their debts to the international agencies, the World Bank etc. It was really frightening to watch this, to see small children with pot bellies, mothers, pregnant mothers and nursing mothers unable to eat the food they were producing because it was required to pay their debts.

Some of our NGO and Government projects were aimed at trying to produce what were called cash crops. Those were by way of creating some kind of collateral, as opposed to food needed for survival, that could be used for debt repayment. I saw a very fine project involving grape growing. That is not a staple production in Tanzania but at least it is a product the people can sell for cash which could in turn be used to pay debts.

In response to growing demands from the ACP states generally, Community involvement in structural adjustment in the Lomé IV Convention was intensified. A figure of 1,150 million EUC is provided in the Lomé IV Convention for structural adjustment. As has been said by other speakers, structural adjustment is a sanitised terminology; nobody objects to it, but what does it mean? It clearly affects the poorest of the poor because they are the people who suffer when governments do not have the necessary money to ensure suitable prices for farm produce and to give subsidies to farmers when weather is not suitable to production and at times of natural disasters. The structural adjustment programmes do not affect the upper echelons in these countries, they affect the poorest people.

The amount involved may be topped up with resources from the Lome IV national indicative programme. In the five years up to 1995 it is expected that 850 million Ecu will come from indicative programmes, giving a total budget of 2,000 million ECU for structural adjustment alone. This money, which should be going towards sustainable long term programmes, is going towards structural adjustment programmes so that governments can pay back the $1,703 billion in indebtedness. It is not improving the lot of the people in these countries.

The whole issue of debt and debt reduction is a boring subject for most people. Their eyes glaze over when the subject is discussed. They say, talk to us about producing water, providing health care or improving educational facilities, not about sterile subjects such as debt reduction. Until the debt burdens are written off or reduced to a manageable proportion, the begging boxes will continue to be seen and our fine development agencies will continue week in, week out to make appeals on radio and television, with fasts, collections and all sorts of ways of raising money, which does not result in the desired improvement. The graph is not going up on standards of living in these countries; in most cases it is going down and in a few isolated cases it is beginning to level off. The next natural disaster in many of these countries could result in a lack of food and resources.

There have been crises since 1985 in Ethiopia, Somalia, Rwanda, Liberia, Malawi, Mozambique — the list is endless. It is very easy to get depressed by what is happening, and I am sure at times the Minister wonders whether he is blowing straws against the wind. Everytime he visits one of these countries he must get depressed. He referred in his speech to the fact that he is just back from Rwanda. I am glad he visited that country because practical, eye witness accounts of these countries will perhaps stiffen his resolve as Minister of State with special responsibility for overseas development. It will also stiffen the resolve of the Tánaiste. When the Minister visits international fora, the UN, the EU and ASEAN countries, his voice should be loud in raising the immediacy of the problems, particularly the debt problem which is at the core of other problems.

If we had a potato famine, if all our potato stocks were destroyed, we could survive. The difference between 1845 and 1994 is that in 1845 the level of development for most people was so abysmally low that there was no substitute to the staple diet of potatoes. People had no other resources to sustain themselves during the Famine. If we had such a famine now we would happily change to importing rice, spaghetti or any other product that would make up for the loss of the potator crop. Developing countries do not have that facility. If they lose their maize crop they have no other product, they depend on world food aid.

The core of this problem is that the world's economic and financial systems are dominated by the West. We must take responsibility for that. Prices, investment patterns, loans, interest rates, trade and debt are controlled by institutions established essentially to support the needs of the West, not of the developing countries. Some banks have been set up to deal with this matter — the International Development Association gives soft loans — but by and large it is the West that counts. Development in the West is supported by the banking institutions that exist internationally. The West becomes concerned about a country if one of its interests is at stake. For example, it rallied in to help Kuwait because our oil supplies were threatened. We do not see the West rushing in to help Rwanda because we do not need Rwanda. We get no product from that country that would affect us if it collapsed and every person there were killed. It does not matter to us whether that happens.

When one reads about Rwanda it brings to the forefront of our minds what is happening there. I read this morning a letter from Fr. Aengus Finucane of Concern, who said about the events in that country: "It is vicious evil on a scale that is beyond comprehension". They are very strong words from a man who has seen many natural catastrophes and many conflicts. Can we sit by as a free, relatively new democracy and allow that vicious evil to be perpetrated? When our grandchildren grow up and read about Rwanda and the fact that in seven weeks 500,000 people were killed, slaughtered, mutilated and washed down rivers into neighbouring countries, they will wonder what kind of public representatives, Ministers and officials we had in our own country, the EU and world institutions that they sat by and did not do everything they could to prevent such a catastrophe. We cannot pretend we are not aware of what is happening. We may have been able to pretend during the Second World War when six million Jews were killed by the Nazis because communications were not as open as they are now. Maybe we were not aware of what was happening then, maybe most of the world was not aware, but somebody was so aware. We cannot let that happen again.

Many people will consider this debate as a boring one. I suspect little or no notice will be taken of it by the television, radio or written media because the subject of debt is not interesting or exciting. Unless an education policy is implemented by the Department, we will never realise the value we should be getting from our development aid, which thankfully is on the increase.

Pope John Paul's recent encyclical states: "One must denounce the existence of economic, financial and social mechanisms which accentuate the situation of wealth for some and poverty for the rest". I am glad the Pope sees fit to raise these issues and I hope in his exalted position he will ensure that the church of which he is head will implement policies supporting the improvement of the lives of the people that many of his priests and nuns assist overseas. I hope also that any diktat or statements he issues will ensure that such people are at the coalface of those policies, not the big international western institutions, but the people living in the cardboard boxes in which Mercedes cars were delivered to Governments and Ministers of those countries. People also live in flattened oil cans that form the side and dividing walls of their homes. It is a travesty to call such places homes because they are little more than hovels or shelters. I saw better housing on the hills of Tanzania for the goats than for the people living in the slums of Dar-es-Salaam and other countries throughout sub-Saharan Africa.

When the Pope talks about the need to denounce the existence of economic, financial and social mechanisms that accentuate the situation, I hope those images come to his mind and that the policies his priests, sisters and brothers implement will address that situation.

I wish to refer to the report published by the ODA sub-committee which is the follow on of the committee which I had the honour of chairing for seven years and of which my colleague, Deputy Connor, was a member. It carried out valuable work in highlighting the whole area of development and the development aid programme. It also highlighted the work carried out by our officials, many of whom have now gone on to become ambassadors in other countries. I know their valuable experience while working in the development section of the Department of Foreign Affairs has been of assistance to them in those countries.

One of the recommendations of the committee, to which Deputy Connor referred, is to use 10 per cent of the reserves of the IMF. This will require dramatic changes in policy. We are talking about 10 per cent of the IMF's reserves, not its working money. The reserves are put aside for a rainy day but the rainy day has come and gone. These dramatic recommendations must be taken on board to reduce the indebtedness so that the millions of dollars pouring into these countries will not pour out of them like a sieve.

This debate, focusing as it does on Rwanda and the debt burden of sub-Saharan Africa and the southern states generally, provides an opportunity for Members to condemn the inactivity of the world agencies and to encourage, through the excellent report of the sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, action to be taken by the Government and the world agencies.

The United Nations responded to the crisis in Rwanda with platitudes and meaningless resolutions. That crisis resulted in the slaughter of over 500,000 people and I believe history will be unforgiving of the UN's role. It represents one of the darker days in relation to its activities.

It is important to compare that response with that of the UN to the war in Kuwait. In Rwanda, and in Africa generally, the people must wonder whether the world cares what happens to them. There have been UN resolutions but no action. The Al Sabah regime in Kuwait was overthrown by the tyrant, Saddam Hussein. What was the response of the UN? Immediate action was taken by President Bush, the British, the Germans, the French, the Russians and some of the Middle East countries. Aircraft were brought in to create a shield whereby Hussein's regime could not pass through Kuwait and move into Saudi Arabia to Riyadh. That action was not taken to save lives but to protect oil supplies which flow to the thirsty economies of the western world. I am not referring only to the UN or the US but to Japan and other countries. Operation Desert Shield was followed by the build-up of hundreds of thousands of men and millions of tons of material which were used to commence the Desert Storm battles. The people of Iraq were bombed and the allied forces succeeded in regaining the territory of Kuwait. Saddam Hussein was kicked out of Kuwait and many of us feel he should have been removed from office which may have resulted in peace in the area.

If one compares that reaction with the reaction of the UN and the forces of the northern countries, the Germans, the French, the British, the Russians, ourselves and EU countries generally, it will be seen as platitudes. The response of the UN to the issue of Bosnia has not been adequate but at least an effort was made to bring the sides together in a meaningful way. What has been the reaction to the slaughter of the innocents in Rwanda from the states of the northern hemisphere? The lack of reaction to the murders in Rwanda has its parallels in the lack of reaction to tackling the debt burden of the sub-Saharan countries, those of the Caribbean and elsewhere.

Before I deal with the debt burden I wish to compare the reaction of the UN countries to that of the non-governmental organisations, particularly our-organisations of which we are so proud, and the special role they have been given by the UNHCR. I refer in particular to GOAL and Trócaire. I congratulate the Minister of State on his initiative in going to see the problem in Rwanda first hand. The graphic detail he went into this morning is an indication of how deeply moved he was by what he saw there in the rivers and on the ground in Rwanda and Burundi. Undoubtedly, the problem in Rwanda will spread to Burundi. I congratulate our non-governmental organisations on what they have achieved and are achieving.

Look at the debt and other problems sub-Saharan areas face. One of the more shocking statements made regarding Third World debt was where the Minister of State said:

It is important to bring to greater public attention the paradox that, in spite of the publicity that is given to donor funded financial assistance, the overall flow of financial resources is from South to North, not from North to South. It is the developing countries who are financing investment in the developed world and not the other way around.

That is shameful.

The Minister of State further stated:

In order to maintain vital imports of oil during the oil crisis of 1979-80, many developing countries were forced to greatly increase their foreign borrowings, just as the increased price of oil adversely affected their balance of payments. Subsequent falls in the price of oil in the 1980s did similar damage to those developing countries which were also oil-producing nations.

At the same time as the oil crisis struck, world prices for basic commodities, on which many developing countries are heavily dependent for export earnings, began to decline. Between 1980 and 1988, UNCTAD estimated that real prices for commodities fell by an average of 18 per cent, with falls of up to 64 per cent in sugar prices and 57 per cent in tin prices.

While we in the northern hemisphere develop and worry about the state of roads and how we will spend massive investment from the EU, whether it will be on light rail or motorways, the problems of sub-Saharan Africa are whether they have enough to eat from day to day, whether they will be able to feed their children, and survive the tribal battle between the Tutsi and Hutu?

I urge the Minister to act on the recommendations contained in the sub-commitee's report, an excellent report on which I congratulate all those concerned. I urge him not just to give a verbal report to the UNHCR regarding what he saw in Rwanda and the camps in Tanzania and elsewhere but to see the Secretary General and give him a face to face account of what he saw on the ground and of the need for immediate action. It is undoubtedly a dark stain on the conscience of the developed world that such atrocities are allowed happen today.

I will make a brief contribution before the Minister replies. I compliment him for travelling to various troubled parts of the world during his ministry. He has shown himself capable of trying to resolve difficulties and nowhere is that more evident than in his visit to Burundi recently. I had an opportunity to visit Africa as an observer, as part of AWEPA and the UN, in order to supervise the referendum in June 1993 and, more recently, the election held in Malawi. I was struck by the genuineness of the people in that country, trying to make the move forward from a one-party state to a multi-party government. Those African countries not genuinely democratic in their government must address this issue. Just as we expect international financial institutions to make a contribution in connection with the forgiveness of debt and so on, African countries will also have to make their contribution by putting genuine democratic institutions in place where people can have a say in the ordering of their lives and the facilities which exist.

In Malawi, investment appeared to have been made in hospitals and school buildings but I noted with regret that these were gradually falling into disrepair. When I asked the people why this had happened they pointed out that they did not have resources to maintain them. These issues are intertwined and must be dealt with.

If the financial institutions make a contribution towards the forgiveness of debt and African countries have genuine democratic institutions, we can make progress on the subject matter of this important debate.

Deputy Tom Kitt rose.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Will someone please move the adjournment of the debate?

I so move.

On a point of order, the Minister was on his feet when the quorum was called.

He had not been called.

As Deputy Owen has already spoken she cannot move the adjournment. As the Minister of State was on his feet——

He had not been called.

——he should move the adjournment.

If he had not been called——

He has been called.

He has not been named.

I cannot vouch for the veracity of the matter as I was not in the Chair at the time.

I understand other Deputies want to contribute to the debate.

Is Deputy Burke trying to stifle them?

Under Standing Orders we must proceed to questions.

(Laoighis-Offaly): The Deputy was not in the House this morning.

The Deputies who wish to speak are in the House.

(Laoighis-Offaly): Where are they now?

(Interruptions.)

This is disgraceful behaviour.

The Deputy should know all about it.

Debate adjourned.
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