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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Mar 2024

Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána

We have received apologies from Deputy John Brady. Everyone is very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Sinéad Keane, audit manager at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we are engaging with officials from An Garda Síochána to examine the appropriation accounts for 2022, specifically Vote 20 – An Garda Síochána. Areas of interest include staffing and recruitment, the policing of public order incidents, community policing, spend and budgets per regional division and the PULSE system. We are joined by the following representatives from An Garda Síochána: Mr. Drew Harris, Garda Commissioner; Ms Shawna Coxon, deputy commissioner with responsibility for strategy, governance and performance; Ms Eimear Bourke, acting executive director of finance and services; Ms Yvonne Cooke, acting executive director of human resources and people development; and Mr. Andrew O’Sullivan, chief information officer. We are also joined by Ms Sarah Kennelly, principal officer in the Department of Justice, and Mr. Daniel O’Callaghan, principal officer in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome.

To begin, I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2022 appropriation accounts for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána recorded gross expenditure of €2.15 billion. This was an increase of around €150 million, or 8%, on the prior year. Expenditure related to payment of salaries, wages and allowances totalled €1.32 billion in 2022. An Garda Síochána spent a further €404 million on pension and gratuity payments to retired gardaí. These two areas account for over 80% of total expenditure in the period.

The Vote has a single expenditure programme that covers all of its operations. Apart from the standard administration cost areas, expenditure was incurred in areas such as transport, communications and the Garda College. Also included is the capital building programme, which includes expenditure on the new Military Road premises of almost €47 million in 2022. The account does not analyse Garda spending in terms of output programmes such as traffic policing, fraud investigation or other specialist functions. At the end of 2022, approximately 17,300 whole-time equivalent staff were employed, of whom just over 14,200 were gardaí or trainees and just over 3,100 were civilian employees with An Garda Síochána.

A supplementary estimate of €79 million was voted for An Garda Síochána in 2022.

At the end of the year, the amount remaining unspent and due for surrender was €12.6 million. I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account. However, I drew attention to two matters disclosed by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control. These relate to non-compliant procurement by An Garda Síochána of €10.8 million worth of goods and services in 2022 and certain weaknesses in relation to control of stocks, attributed to lack of availability of personnel.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. As set out in the invitation, the Commissioner has five minutes for his opening statement.

Mr. Drew Harris

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to be here today to discuss An Garda Síochána’s appropriation accounts for 2022.

As has been said already, our gross expenditure in 2022 was €2.15 billion. Net expenditure was just over €2.02 billion when appropriations-in-aid of €130 million are taken into account. That was the largest budget in our history to date. 2022 was an important year for An Garda Síochána, as we marked our centenary as an organisation. We celebrated the organisation’s growth, development and service over the last century and it also served as a reminder as to how much the organisation and Garda personnel contributed to protecting democracy and keeping people safe throughout our history. In 2022, An Garda Síochána continued to implement significant structural and organisational changes under the Government’s policing reform programme, A Policing Service For Our Future, to ensure gardaí have the tools and supports they need to deliver an efficient and effective policing service for the people of Ireland.

We are one of the world’s most trusted police services. We are renowned for our connection to communities and we continue to work in partnership with people and communities throughout Ireland to keep them safe. One of the ways that we are doing this is through the implementation of the Garda operating model. This is one of the biggest changes to the organisation’s structure in its long history. The operating model, based on work by the Garda Inspectorate, the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland and the views of members of An Garda Síochána, will enable the force to respond to the significant changes in Irish society. This means that the policing demands upon An Garda Síochána will change and evolve in the years ahead. Through the operating model, we are driving forward key efficiencies through the standardisation of processes across the organisation and providing more specialist services at local level in areas such as domestic abuse, cybercrime, and combating localised drug dealing. As of today, 12 of our 21 divisions have fully implemented the operating model, with the remaining divisions in advanced stages of progress.

Under A Policing Service for Our Future, there has also been a significant investment in ICT systems and tools to reduce paperwork that will enable gardaí to spend more time on patrol and on the street than in the station. It also ensures that we have robust data to inform policing activity. We have developed a world-leading mobility device. This enables members of the Garda to access critical information while on the move. It again requires less time in stations. It enables fixed charge notices to be issued by gardaí at the roadside. On average, 14,000 fixed charge notices are issued every month from these devices. This means that 85% of all fixed charge notices are now issued electronically. In 2022, more than 10,000 Garda personnel had mobility devices, and that number has grown today to 15,000. Our mobility devices are improving all the time. We have a PULSE person-search app, a health and well-being app, KOPS, a Microsoft Teams app that allows us to hold meetings online and an updated traffic app, which now includes live insurance data.

In terms of information-led policing, major new ICT systems have increased efficiency and effectiveness. They have enhanced the safety of gardaí and have strengthened governance. The roster and duty management system is 98% rolled out and it will be 100% rolled out by the end of this month. It allows us to deploy better resources to ensure that our people are where they are needed most. A new nationwide dispatch system, known as GardaSAFE, improves the efficiency of how gardaí respond to calls for service from the public and enhances the safety of Garda members. The investigation management system enables digital management of all material relating to an investigation. We continue to grow and adapt our fleet. In 2022, we had 3,312 vehicles, which was the highest number in the history of the organisation at that time. This number has since grown to 3,450, including 110 fully electric vehicles with a further 70 electric vehicles to be allocated during 2024.

Furthermore, as we work towards our climate action targets, measures we are implementing in this area will result in better value for money. Already things are going in the right direction. Our fossil fuel usage has reduced by 15%. That is based on average emissions over a three-year period from 2016 to 2018. We are also on course to meet our energy efficiency targets for 2030. As of 2022, we had achieved a 31% improvement in that area. This equated to a saving of €41 million since 2009. However, it will get progressively more challenging and we will be reliant on other stakeholders, including the Government, to help fund projects into the future.

As for our personnel, we received valuable feedback from over 6,000 Garda personnel who took part in our internal culture audit and we have further invested in our people. In 2022, we introduced a new practical and modern uniform and the expenditure for that can be seen in our accounts. This uniform also incorporates changes we made to Garda policy and provides for the wearing of headgear for religious and cultural reasons and beliefs. We continued to invest in the health and well-being of our personnel. In 2022, we piloted mental health first aid training. The first group from this course will graduate on Monday. We are the first European police service to roll this training out and we intend to roll it out to all personnel. A menopause guidance document was also developed in 2022 and published in 2023. We are the first State body to introduce such guidance. Specific psychological support services were also introduced for specialist units exposed to distressing incidents or footage or both.

In the area of recruitment, the Covid-19 national emergency meant that we lost the opportunity to recruit 1,500 gardaí. Public health restrictions at the time meant that the Garda College could not operate. However, after a gap of three years, in 2022, we ran a Garda recruitment competition which was successful and attracted 11,000 applications. There were two successive campaigns in 2023 and 2024. This year’s campaign attracted almost 6,400 applicants. This has significantly strengthened our recruitment pipeline and it shows that many people believe that being a garda is a job worth doing. I look forward to meeting the latest intake of recruits passing out from the Garda College tomorrow who will go out to police and serve their communities.

Looking ahead as the structure of the organisation evolves, there is also a need to ensure that our estate aligns with our changing operational requirements, population growth and with the needs, both operational and practical, of Garda personnel. One of the biggest examples of this was the move of our crime operations headquarters from Harcourt Square to the new Walter Scott House building in 2022. This was the largest estate movement undertaken in the history of An Garda Síochána with almost 10% of the organisation being impacted. In 2022, working with the OPW, upgrades to Longford and Navan Garda stations were completed, as well as the reopening of Fitzgibbon Street station in Dublin’s inner city. We have an extensive station network of over 500 stations. While the international trend is to shut stations, we have increased opening hours in smaller stations and have no intention of closing any stations.

In recognising that accommodation is a crucial element to facilitating policing activities, 30 major station office projects are being progressed nationally as part of the Garda capital investment programme 2023 to 2030.

As Accounting Officer of An Garda Síochána, I am confident that public moneys under my control were expended in 2022 within an ethos of value for money and investing in the future of our services on behalf of Government and the society we serve. I thank the committee.

I thank the Commissioner. The first committee member this morning is Deputy Catherine Murphy. She has 15 minutes.

I thank the Chair. I welcome the witnesses before the committee.

I wish to start on the resourcing issue. For example, each time we ask the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, we are constantly told that the deployment of resources is entirely under the Garda Commissioner's remit. Obviously, we expect that this is done efficiently and effectively. Mr. Harris acknowledged that the 2022 budget was the largest. In fact, it increased again in 2023 and 2024. However, looking at the budget and the numbers, the budget has gone up, but the actual number of Garda members has gone down. There were 14,491 gardaí in 2020 and by 2023, there were 13,930.

An Garda Síochána cannot police without having enough Garda personnel as they do a multiplicity of things. If the pipeline is so good, how is it that the bulk of the money is spent on personnel yet Garda numbers are decreasing? I would like to hear the response of the Garda Commissioner on the first issue of the numbers and the second issue of Garda deployment.

Mr. Drew Harris

Internationally, policing has dipped as a career choice for people right across the world. We can see this in North America and the UK.

I need a concise response.

Mr. Drew Harris

Prior to Covid we regularly had classes coming into training at 200 a time. After Covid, even with our best efforts in terms of recruitment, we found it difficult to push to those numbers. Tomorrow's class, which will graduate, is in and around 165. There is a very competitive marketplace but we also have look to the terms and conditions within the organisation. Last year, I proposed an increase to the student allowance. That happened and was implemented with the budget, for instance. We have to be sure that we are seen to be an attractive employer. We have a retention and recruitment strategy which involves the associations. We have done a huge outreach programme for the past two recruitment competitions as well. I would be in a far better position in terms of all the demands that are placed upon the organisation if I had 15,000 gardaí. We want to get there but the issue is getting people into the organisation and keeping them.

Can the force safely police when it is under resourced?

Mr. Drew Harris

The safety of the community, society and members, as they patrol, are absolute essentials. At the same time, we have to manage with what we have and adjust our resources accordingly to meet the demands we see.

The Commissioner has talked about the pipeline but really we should look at the net numbers. Obviously a large number of people are exiting and, in fact, exiting mid-career from the Garda. Taking account of the difference between the number of new recruits and the number who have left, the net increase between 2020 and 2023 was just 300 people.

Mr. Drew Harris

The difficulty we had in that period is precisely that of Covid. We had to, in effect, close our college, which stalled any recruitment efforts, and at the same time cessations continue. We are also in a situation where 30 years ago there was a recruitment surge. That means people are coming up to retirement age and that is why retirement numbers are higher.

Beyond that is the issue of resignations and people leaving An Garda Síochána. We always had resignations but, last year, we had approximately 160. That was a high number for us but, for an organisation of the scale of some 13,900 gardaí, that is not a big number when compared with other police services or, indeed, other Government bodies. We have a pretty static and stable workforce. What we want to make sure is that people stay in the organisation and we remain an attractive employer.

On the recruitment process, An Garda Síochána has moved away from using the Public Appointments Service and now uses a UK firm, which is obviously non-EU, to spearhead the recruitment drive. What does the firm do and how did the change come about? I understand that the initiative is costing approximately €4 million.

Mr. Drew Harris

Which firm is the Deputy referring to, sorry?

I understand that a UK firm is now used to recruit, rather than the Public Appointments Service.

Mr. Drew Harris

I might pass that question to Ms Cooke. PAS is still involved in our recruitment process for gardaí.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

The Public Appointments Service is still a valued partner to An Garda Síochána. PAS currently supports us with respect to running the Garda trainee competition, all of our Garda staff competitions and soon the Garda Reserve. We found that our needs and demand were significant. To be fair to the Public Appointments Service, it was not able to commit to the timelines that we required.

Please keep the reply short.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

I will. PAS is supportive of it. We engage with the Department of Justice and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to secure a contract of a value of up to €4 million with Staffline. It is an organisation that operates in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. It will only ever deliver on Garda staff competitions for An Garda Síochána when the Public Appointments Service is unable to serve us. That is done in full partnership with PAS.

Can I presume that was agreed at ministerial level?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

It was a formal business case that went through our partners. Yes, it was agreed.

On the use of overtime, between 2020 and 2023 almost half a billion euro was used on overtime. There are also additional payments for travel and subsistence. For people who are doing overtime, such as those who are bussed in from outside of Dublin to Dublin for overtime or for special events and things like that, for example, there are probably additional amounts of travel and subsistence. That is an enormous of money in overtime that I presume makes up for the deficit in the number of gardaí the force should have. Is that an appropriate way to do things? Is the expense value for money in terms of policing?

Mr. Drew Harris

Overtime is, I believe, value for money in the position that we are in. We have to respond to the policing demands. I know that it is anticipated that increased gardaí numbers would reduce the need for overtime. That would work out if the demand for Garda services was static, but the demand for the work that we do continues to increase. The economy opened up-----

To short-circuit this, I ask the Garda Commissioner to supply in writing details on travel and subsistence. I would also like details in writing on the arrangements in terms of travel and subsistence, for example, when overtime occurs outside the district? Do they differ from Civil Service rates? If so, I ask the Commissioner to supply a note on that to the committee, please. That would allow us to consider it on paper. I do not think we will adequately deal with the matter at the meeting.

Mr. Drew Harris

I have a full breakdown on overtime activity and where it is spent. Subsistence allowances and the accommodation allowance vary because the circumstances in which sworn members of An Garda Síochána are employed are different from those of Civil Service colleagues. They reflect the operational demands on members who may not be able to avail of a refreshment break, for instance, and are on duty constantly.

I ask the Commissioner to provide the information in writing.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will.

There was a fairly high-profile case involving a bicycle where a Garda was suspended for three years. I completely understand that An Garda Síochána is a hierarchical organisation and when a complaint is made it must be dealt with. However, in this case it seems like a sledgehammer was used to crack a nut.

Can the Commissioner confirm whether the case has finished?

Is it done and dusted? If it is ongoing, I do not want it to be discussed.

Mr. Drew Harris

The case is finished. The difficulty I have in respect of talking about this is that only partial information has been put into the public domain. I am supplying all of the information to the Policing Authority and the Minister. That is the established accountability regime. We received only yesterday the report from the panel's chair. That is an important piece of information to receive. I have not yet seen that or the transcript of the panel. For my purposes, there is no further action from me in respect of that individual member. I am reluctant to engage in the detail of this because a lot of details are not in the public domain.

I ask Deputy Murphy to be careful around that.

Some information is in the public domain and this goes to the heart of how resources are deployed. For example, the Garda National Bureau of Criminal Investigation was deployed. If I am not right about this, the Commissioner should feel free to correct it. There is supposed to be a review of suspensions every three months. It affects approximately 100 gardaí. We have seen high-profile cases go through the courts and that will always be an option. This garda was exonerated in recent weeks. I am considering the use of such resources for something of this nature and the length of time for a suspension. Even though it was a partial suspension, it had a big impact on the individual. What I am trying to get at is whether the review is done every three months, if this can happen. Is this an appropriate way to deal with or use resources when they are so limited and we are using overtime to a great degree for policing?

Mr. Drew Harris

To answer that I have to go into the detail of the initial allegations and I am not willing to do that.

I do not want the Commissioner to do so and that is why I am pausing proceedings for a minute. I do not want him to impair in any way the ongoing process of an individual case. However, the Deputy is asking whether the three monthly reviews always happen. Perhaps the Commissioner can answer on how the system works. I understand and I do not want the Commissioner to have a negative impact on the investigation into the case.

Mr. Drew Harris

If I step back from the specific case, all suspensions are reviewed at three months and if there is any change of circumstances whatsoever. The review is conducted by an assistant commissioner and it is done every three months. It is also overseen by the deputy commissioner, Dr. Coxon. We are also open to any new information or application from a member of concern. That is a constant process, but I emphasise again, suspension is a last resort.

I just find this case to be extraordinary. Often, examples have to be used to get under the bonnet and see what is happening and how resources are being deployed. On the face of it, it seems this is an extraordinary use or misuse of resources.

I am not satisfied. A hundred or so people are suspended. Some people are suspended for a very long time, which could be for justifiable reasons, but I am not convinced the three-month review is happening to the extent it should be if something like this can go on for the length of time it did, given the level of resources used for something of this nature. Given the nature of policing at community level, that would have seemed like a reasonable thing to do.

The approximately €7 million tax bill that was settled with Revenue was discovered by an internal audit. It feels like there is a bit more to this than meets the eye. I would have thought it was reasonable for people’s costs to be covered and that they would not be treated in the normal course of events as benefit-in-kind. Will the Commissioner give an insight into what happened?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will pass this question to Dr. Coxon.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

To clarify, we are still in discussion with Revenue so this matter has not been concluded. It is therefore difficult to give complete detail. I say that because approximately half of what was paid is being disputed. We have made a voluntary disclosure and are working with Revenue. Revenue looked beyond the original issue at a number of different pieces in the organisation and, based on an extensive consultation, we came to this figure, but the figure is not complete. It has been paid. That is how these things work. It is paid in advance to stop accruing interest. From that point, we continue to work with Revenue to see whether it will wind up being the final amount.

An Garda Síochána paid €7 million but it hopes for a refund.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It will go to the Exchequer. That is just how it works, yes.

I welcome the witnesses and ask them to be precise as I only have ten minutes. I have a few requests for information that will not take up too much time. I will list them and ask the secretariat to note them and perhaps the witnesses would respond in writing.

I understand that more than 100 members are suspended. Can we get in tabular form for each year from 2020 to 2023 the number of those suspended by rank, the cost of their wages and whatever else for the total number of people suspended? Will An Garda Síochána also provide in tabular form the number of those suspended who are not sworn members, that is, civilian staff?

The second matter on which I would like some information in tabular form is the visit of Joe Biden, to include a breakdown of the total costs to the force per day, what percentage of it was in overtime and how many gardaí were on duty for the 56 hours over the two days by rank.

My third request for information relates to HR circular 44/22. How many reports were forwarded to district officers on the withdrawal of cases before the district court from 2020 to 2023?

I come from the mid-west. It will not surprise the Commissioner that I will raise financial issues about what has happened in the mid-west. I will ask about some of those in a moment. I represent Templemore. Morale in An Garda Síochána is pretty low and we need to do something about it. I concur with the previous speaker about the matter of the officer and the bicycle. There are also other cases, some of which are before the courts. I spoke about them before they were before the courts. I inform the Chair that I will not speak about anything that is before the courts, except to ask for the cost of investigations.

A number of investigations that relate to the squaring of fixed charge notices are ongoing in the mid-west. That seems to include two different investigations, Operation Bath and Operation Modulus. Neither has concluded. One is live before the courts so I will not talk about it. The second is not before any court. Will the witnesses supply to the committee information about the cost by year of Operation Bath and Operation Modulus from the commencement of those operations to 1 January 2024, please?

The witnesses said previously that some of these are in the public interest. I note that in many cases no senior officers have been put through either of these operations. I wonder why the focus is only on the mid-west. This stretches into Tipperary, Kerry, Cork and so on. Is it in the public interest? Is it worthwhile? How much is the cost and is it proportionate? Our committee is interested in the cost of this and whether it is proportionate and worthwhile and so on.

I would also like to correlate the following: the number of road deaths in the Limerick division from 2020 to 2023. The Road Safety Authority, RSA, is running a big national campaign. Will the witnesses provide in tabular form the number of road traffic deaths that occurred in that division from 2020 to the end of 2023 and the number of cases which were prosecuted from 2020 to 2023 that related to drink-driving, drug-driving, mobile phone use and dangerous driving?

I would like to correlate this across. The Commissioner will see where I am coming from. It is quite obvious.

It seems to me there is a loss of revenue to the State, so I am interested in the correlation between investigations and loss of revenue. An even more interesting question is this. How many of the cases that would have been prosecuted by the second unit of gardaí under Operation Modulus have not been pursued through the courts? How many cases have been lost because of the situation with Operation Modulus? I understand the figure is up to 1,400. If 1,400 prosecutions have not proceeded because of this, we need to look into that. I know there is a recruitment process under way to replace this unit. There is a fear for the taxpayer of the cost of the suspensions. Then there will be the cost of bringing in gardaí from other divisions. There there is the cost to the State of fixed notices that are not bringing in revenue. There is also the more macro cost to the State of a lot of cases that have not gone through the system, either by being withdrawn or thrown out. I am trying to get at how much all of this is costing the State in financial terms.

Mr. Drew Harris

As one might expect, I do not have the figures at my fingertips to answer that series of questions.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Drew Harris

As the Deputy noted, one of these matters is live before the courts. It is very difficult to make a comment here.

Although I have read some reports and I know there are some reports on it, I will not speak about that.

Mr. Drew Harris

If I step back from these incidents, it is our function in statute to investigate and report matters to the DPP. That is what we have done. The DPP then, independent of us, has made decisions.

I say this in all sincerity and I am not trying to catch anyone out. When we have a community policing model, fairness and proportionality are key. In my judgment, as someone who lives in the community in question and has friends who sat beside me in school who are working in that whole zone, this is totally disproportionate. For the committee, the issue is the cost to the taxpayer. For parliamentarians more widely, the issue is the endangerment of people's lives because of the volume of prosecutions that have not gone through and the knock-on effect of that.

I ask the Garda Commissioner to provide the cost of investigations by the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, NBCI, into Operation Bath and Operation Modulus from 2020 to 2023. I want to see if this is a good use of resources. Has anyone ever been disciplined as part of the investigations into financial mismanagement which were broadly brought forward in this room by Mr. John Barrett? Has anyone been disciplined with regard to what happened there?

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not believe so. We are dependent on a GSOC investigation in that regard. It will report in respect of discipline matters to me but that has not happened as yet.

I have no issue with the acting senior managers in finance and HR. They are two very fine people. How long have those positions been vacant? In other words, how long has it been since there has been someone permanent in HR?

Mr. Drew Harris

In respect of finance, that position has only been vacant for a number of weeks. In respect of the executive director of human resources, the postholder remains suspended and has been suspended since October 2018.

I am aware of that. Does the Garda Commissioner feel he would be better able to perform his function if that post was permanently filled?

Mr. Drew Harris

In touching upon an individual and their employment status, I am reluctant to-----

I am not asking the Garda Commissioner to talk about any particular person but surely it would be a better scenario for the chief executive of any organisation to have these positions permanently filled. I appreciate the finance position became vacant very recently.

Mr. Drew Harris

As a general principle, one wants positions to be filled and filled substantively.

Okay. I have a final question as I am running out of time. When it comes to the NBCI's budget I presume it is a significant budget line within the organisation. Will the Garda Commissioner provide the committee not just with the amounts I have asked for with regard to the two operations, which we need to receive, but also the total NBCI budget for the past six years, not including 2024? This will enable us to examine pro rata the expenditure in that area over the past six years.

Good morning to the witnesses. I will start with the Garda Commissioner. With regard to community policing, the first few questions require just a "Yes" or "No" answer. Does the Garda Commissioner believe in community policing and its benefits? Does he believe community policing to be considered best practice?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes, and I think as an organisation we are an exemplar. Our connection to the community, the support we have from the community and, therefore, the amount of information that comes to An Garda Síochána and the support for our investigative efforts and just generally for the work that An Garda Síochána seeks to do are all related to our connection to the community and that, in essence, is community policing.

When the Garda Commissioner talks about community policing he sees it as those members of the team who are out in the community, walking around the community, chatting with youths and familiarising themselves with troubled areas and all of that sort of thing. That is what the Garda Commissioner would consider community policing.

Mr. Drew Harris

It goes beyond that. It is also then gaining information from the community, having a thorough understanding of what the problems are, but also working with other stakeholders to resolve quality-of-life issues. It goes beyond a pure policing function into more of a community safety function.

Okay, that is perfect. What percentage of gardaí have been committed to community policing for this year in comparison with last year? How many gardaí have been committed, as opposed to the percentage?

Mr. Drew Harris

The figure is in or around 670 gardaí. That figure has, in effect, stayed relatively level at in and around the mid-600s for the last six or seven years.

It has not gone up year on year; it has stayed pretty much-----

Mr. Drew Harris

It has stayed static but, in the interim period, we have also formed new units such as cybercrime and the protective services bureau. There has been an investment.

I am just talking about community policing. Most people see how important it is. It is crucial. If the figures have stayed static, what is the position with funding? Obviously, it has not been increased.

Mr. Drew Harris

I would point beyond that to what we have done structurally in the operating model in terms of the focus on community policing areas, community policing teams and the assignment of sergeants and inspectors with specific responsibilities as well. This is all in preparation for the new community safety regime coming in place. There has been ongoing investment with respect to the development of the role.

Has the funding allocated specifically to community policing gone up in the last couple of years?

Mr. Drew Harris

As regards the additional structure put around it, as opposed to pure Garda members, there has been an increase.

If we were to look at community policing funding on the spreadsheet, the figure would not have altered that much.

Mr. Drew Harris

It may have altered a good bit because we have added sergeants and inspectors to the structures where we have an operating model. That is additional personnel who we are not counting in terms of the gardaí numbers.

I am talking about feet on the street, if you like, in communities.

Mr. Drew Harris

It will have moved with inflation and increment drift.

It would not really have moved. The reason I asked the Garda Commissioner about the benefits of community policing is that most people can see the benefits of it but just do not see enough of it. I will raise an issue in my own home town of Drogheda. The Garda Commissioner will be aware we had a ferocious feud for two years that caused mayhem and destruction.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

It nearly tore the town apart.

The fear was palpable.

This information comes from the Commissioner’s own people - I am not making it up. A report that was furnished or a submission made stated that, on a daily basis, it is now accepted that there will not be a garda on the beat. The statistics for May 2023 show there were 146 gardaí in the Drogheda-Dunleer-Clogherhead district. In December 2021, the figure was 152. Following the feud, the murders, the daylight shootings and all that happened, we are down six gardaí, which means one fewer garda per shift. It is stated here in black and white that it is now accepted that there will not be a garda on the beat. How is that in any way best practice? Where does community policing fit in? Here is a town that went through hell. We begged and pleaded for additional services. Bear in mind, those directly involved in the feud, the main instigators, are not behind bars. They are still out there. The feud is creeping back in and I can name areas in the town where it is creeping back in. Parents are being threatened again, people are looking for money, there are petrol bomb attacks, parents are afraid for their lives and there is open drug dealing. What are the lessons learned? Why would gardaí be withdrawn from an area that went through so much and that needs and was promised a particular focus? We are actually worse off now than we were. How is that good policing?

Mr. Drew Harris

I point to the success of the policing operation, the engagement with other stakeholders and, properly, the focus there was on multi-agency working, where An Garda Síochána played its part, with others, very successfully in dealing with the gang violence that was going on. The Deputy highlighted that the area is six members down. I do not have those figures to hand but there was a huge effort put in by the local Garda and, together with others, that was successful. Regrettably, some of the individuals involved are still at large, but others have been brought to justice. We are always determined to follow through on investigations. There are major investigations ongoing in respect of serious incidents up to and including murder. All of that is happening and it is a collective effort.

The point is that it may be happening in the background. However, it states here, and this from the Commissioner’s own people, that it is now accepted there will not be a garda on the beat. We are down six gardaí from where we were several years ago. Drogheda is the largest town of Ireland and it went through a feud. Things are starting to kick off again. It is not “in your face” but these people are coming back out and it is all starting again. We are six gardaí down and the Commissioner’s own people said there will not be a garda on the beat. How could he possibly stand over that?

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not pretend to stand over it. I was unaware of that and I can pursue it further. That statement has not been made to me and that was not my understanding of the policing there. I can pursue it further.

Will the Commissioner revert to me on that? It is wholly unacceptable.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes, of course.

I thank the Commissioner.

I refer to the PULSE system and the 2,000 emergency calls that were cancelled or deleted at the time. The review carried out in 2021 stated that gardaí behaviour was a major factor in that. The Garda got funding, I think in 2021, of €15 million for a new IT system. Is that IT system up and running?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is the GardaSAFE system and it is now run across all regions in Ireland. Mr. O’Sullivan can provide further detail in respect of that if it is needed.

Is that where supervision is required if a call is to be cancelled?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is correct. Within standard procedures, only a supervisor can classify a call as being cancelled.

Is there a record of any calls being cancelled since that new system has been up and running?

Mr. Drew Harris

Calls can be cancelled for a variety of reasons. I will hand over to Mr. O’Sullivan because he implemented the process.

I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to be brief because time is of the essence. Can he give me a couple of examples of reasons, under the new IT system, that a call would be cancelled?

Mr. Andrew O'Sullivan

There is no real change to the original procedure. Approximately 15% of incidents are closed without further action. One could call that cancellation in some sense. That might mean, for example, an incident is reported multiple times. If there is a major incident or a traffic incident on the M50, that will be recorded multiple times. It could be the caller calls back and we satisfy ourselves that it does not require further action. Typically, that will be in the case of alarm calls. The vast majority of incidents that are closed without further action relate to traffic incidents where there are multiple calls or alarms that were set off by accident.

Can the public rest assured that what happened previously, where victims of domestic violence were ringing up while they were being attacked and calls were cancelled, could not ever happen again with this new system? It would be just duplicate calls that are cancelled and the trivial end of things that Mr. O’Sullivan mentioned. Can the public be assured that is now the case?

Mr. Andrew O'Sullivan

We deal with approximately 800,000 calls for service on the GardaSAFE system per year. We now have in place a very rigorous system through the technology that is in place and the upgrading of the processes. I think we have done everything that we possibly could have done.

Just to be clear on the original figures, during the period 2019 to 2020, which is the review period in question, there were 1.4 million calls for service on the old Garda CAD system. Some 200,000 of those were closed without further action. I suppose you could call it cancelled in those cases. That eventually boiled down because we investigated it in great detail. That has been reviewed and agreed with the CSO and by Mr. Penman in his report. That boiled down to 141 crime incidents that were not correctly recorded. That is a relatively minor level. We are confident that the issue has been adequately dealt with.

I have one final question. Were there any gardaí disciplined over that? If so, what was the nature of that discipline and if not, why not?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will report back on that, if I may. Gardaí were disciplined but I do not have the detail of the discipline outcomes.

Could the committee be furnished with that detail?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

Do the witnesses have a ballpark figure? Is it double figures or single figures?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

We can supply them. I am just mindful that if the numbers are very small, we do not want to identify anyone as a result of that.

Okay. It could be in single figures.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It could be, depending on the region. We will look at it and we will give a rationale if we are unable to give more information. We can certainly provide the totals.

My apologies for being late as I had other meetings to attend as well. I thank the witnesses for the documentation that has been sent on.

Regarding people doing administrative work in An Garda Síochána, I note there are now more than 3,100 civilian employees in the Garda. Are there still many gardaí doing administrative work that could be done by civilians who could be brought in it do it? What is the number of gardaí still doing administrative work?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will hand over to Ms Cooke to provide an answer to that.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

There are still gardaí doing administrative work, and all gardaí will have aspects of administrative work. I think the Deputy is speaking to the best use of our resources in terms of the reassignment programme. We explored where individuals will need to use their policing powers or policing experience. If that is not the case, those are identified as roles that could be suitably informed by a Garda staff, or civilian as otherwise referred to. We engaged in a significant programme and up to 900 gardaí were reassigned. We have faced some challenges, though, with respect to our Garda staff recruitment pipeline, which relates to a question that was asked earlier. Every effort has been made to recruit as many Garda staff as possible in the next 12 months because we intend doing a further reassignment programme, looking further into the gardaí-----

Of the 14,200 gardaí, how many are doing nothing but administrative work?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

I need to get that data for the Deputy after today because that was specifically-----

Following on from that, I am not sure what the figure is because we do not have it but there are 14,200 gardaí. Let us say the figure is 1,000 people. Is it possible that another 500 of those could be assigned to police work rather than administrative work? What is the target?

Is it one year, two years or three years? It is about making the Garda more effective because a big complaint is the insufficient number of gardaí on the streets.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Understood. In addition to the focus on resourcing, there has been quite a bit of modernisation of ICT to support colleagues so that they are doing less administrative work. We are now looking at a new ratio and quota for what we intend on delivering within this year of further reassignments, and while we do not have that figure yet because we are waiting for the confidence of the pipeline, we are nearly there. The intention is that we will assess all posts across the organisation against whether it requires a sworn power or specific policing experience, and if it does not, we will be looking to have those roles reassigned to Garda staff. That should assist with greater visibility.

I might on to the issue of Garda infrastructure. The figure for the capital programme was €325 million in 2022. The process in modernising Garda stations is delayed. We were talking about the OPW and the timeline. Can something be done to restructure the timeline for taking a project from start to finish? It appears to be taking forever to get any new Garda station built.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

Perhaps I can take that. We are working very closely with our partners both in the Department and in the OPW. We are in the process of updating our memorandum of understanding with the OPW, looking at the recommendations made by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland, as well as with different models that exist across the justice sector to see what will be the best fit. It is an ongoing piece of work. I would agree we are challenged and, to be fair to our partners, I think they would agree as well, so we are continuing to work together. There has been improvement-----

For instance, if a new housing area is being developed, over a short period 5,000, 6,000 or 7,000 houses might be built but no plan is in place as to where Garda members are going to operate from. It is not just about looking at existing infrastructure and the need for modernisation but also about planning for where we need new infrastructure, and I am not sure that is happening.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

Yes, both things happen. We look at our estate and what other pieces of estate would exist outside of us, but certainly within the Government portfolio, and we then look at what our needs are into the future. Both things are occurring. The challenge is that, as the Deputy noted, things take a long time, so they shift-----

Why should they take a long time? For instance, in my area of Cork, Glanmire, there was a project where the OPW agreed to buy a building and it took six years to complete the sale. That is an area with a population of over 25,000, and Garda members were operating out of a station that was totally out of date. Why should an area with such a huge population not have the infrastructure? Is there not now a need to review how we come to decisions about when we are putting in infrastructure and fast-tracking that such that it will not take 20 years for it to go in?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

I agree with the Deputy but we are locked into various relationships with other stakeholders, so it is really a matter of working collectively. I have experienced some of these things as well. It is a challenge and I cannot speak for our partners in that regard.

The population of the country has increased by 40% in the past 23 years. Is it not now time to say what we need in a given area and that we want it delivered within a 12-month or two-year period, not within a ten-year period?

Mr. Drew Harris

The ten-year period is within the capital envelope we were provided for, but one does not have to look far beyond ten years to see that, particularly along motorway corridors, small towns or villages are going to become large towns and are going to grow considerably. We are very mindful of that and of the need for us, whenever there are big planning applications, to be in there as well, particularly with the local authorities to ask what they are planning for all the amenities that are required to serve such populations. Obviously, there is a requirement for school, health facilities, etc., and the Garda Síochána should be on that list in terms of what the provision is for us-----

For the next, say, three years, what projects are planned to be delivered and where are the bottlenecks in those projects at present?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

We have a list of projects we are looking at for this year that are progressing. They are in Macroom, Clonmel, Newcastle West, Bailieborough and Portlaoise. We are looking at future-proofing larger projects as well, as the Deputy discussed, and a good example of that would be in Tallaght. We make an application and say what we would like or that we would like to be involved, particularly in areas that are growing. We consider An Garda Síochána to be critical infrastructure, just as a school or hospital would be, so we want to be in those spaces where we know there is going to be a future need. At that point, we then work with our partners-----

Could we be given information about the projects for, say, the next five-year programme within the Garda, or is there a five-year programme?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

There is a five-year programme, yes. It does-----

Could we get a copy of that? There is-----

Dr. Shawna Coxon

Yes.

-----an increase in the population and an increase in the demands on Garda members. Therefore, we need to have the infrastructure to give them that support.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

Yes.

I think the witnesses would accept that a lot of Garda stations are out of date and are no longer adequate for the demands that are there.

Mr. Drew Harris

I do accept that. Our estate that most Garda members work out is of a certain age and we are having to make do. At 570 stations, however, to refresh that within a 50-year period would, in effect, mean we would have to be opening new stations at a rate of between ten and 11 every year, and we are nowhere near that. Some of the stations we have are modern and their shelf life will be more than 50 years, but others will not last that long and we will have necessarily have an emergency in that regard, even with the estate as it is. The Deputy is right to highlight the population growth, but there is also the growth of the organisation. Every garda needs a workspace and a locker and our Garda staff need workspaces, and that just increases the space we need. Even to recruit Garda Reserve members, all of them need a locker and that is at least 1 sq. m.

My final question relates to computerisation. Are the witnesses satisfied that, when compared with other police forces across the globe, we are as up to date as we can be? Over the next five years, how can this be further improved?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will hand over to Mr. O'Sullivan to set out our ICT strategy.

Mr. Andrew O'Sullivan

It is important to note that data and technology strategy is a combination of data and technology. Technology is no use without data and vice versa. It is published and is called Information-Led Policing, which is the eighth principle of the Commission for the Future of Policing in Ireland. The specific recommendations of the commission have largely been implemented. The last of those is the roll-out of body-worn cameras, which is in progress. Digitisation, obviously, is an ongoing exercise but the major systems we have deployed include computer-aided dispatches, GardaSAFE, which we just talked about, the investigation management system, the deployment of a big data analytics hub to allow us to process the massive amounts of data we are dealing with, and the mobile platform, which is bearing fruit in its applications for roads policing and computer-aided dispatch. They are all in place. We are about halfway to where we want to be but digitisation will never stop because as we roll out something, it will continue to modernise-----

If the process is halfway there, when it will it be fully there compared with other policing forces?

Mr. Andrew O'Sullivan

In that strategy, which was initiated in 2020 and upgraded in 2023, we said it would be roughly a five-year programme, so we are about two and a half or three years into that and it will be another two years or so-----

Are the witnesses satisfied the targets that were set for each of those years are being met at this stage?

Mr. Andrew O'Sullivan

We have a very detailed planning process, which we go through in conjunction with the Department of public expenditure's digital government oversight unit. We set out targets and an ICT roadmap, as well as targets for the development of our data quality, which was acknowledged by the CSO last year. We set annual targets as part of that five-year programme and that is communicated in our policing plan annually, which is published to the Policing Authority. Last year, we delivered on all our data and technology targets against that policing plan, and we will continue to deliver on that.

I welcome the Commissioner and his team back to the committee. I might start with the issue of personnel, and senior management in particular.

I understand there are regional commands in the northern, western, southern areas and in Dublin that are vacant. How many senior management posts are vacant at present?

Mr. Drew Harris

Sorry, I do not know of any senior positions. The assistant commissioner positions are all filled and, to my knowledge, all the chief superintendent positions are filled. Other than that I am down one deputy commissioner, which is very significant for Dr. Coxon and I, but beyond that I cannot think of any -----

How long has that post been vacant?

Mr. Drew Harris

That position is now vacant a week.

So it is short term but there are plans, obviously, to fill it.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

Therefore the full senior management is fully staffed.

Mr. Drew Harris

The senior management team is complete in terms of the assistant commissioners. Recently, our executive director of finance retired from An Garda Síochána and in effect Ms Bourke is acting in her place but she is a substantive executive director in her own right. Ms Cooke, who is with us, is the acting executive director for HR.

Was the retirement of the director of finance planned or was it sudden?

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not really want to go into the reasons why that individual left.

Not the reasons but was it-----

Mr. Drew Harris

That was her own decision.

Okay. And what is the intention in filling those two roles, in finance and HR permanently?

Mr. Drew Harris

We are moving to advertise the position of executive director of finance as soon as possible. Then in respect of executive director of HR, the post holder of that position is currently suspended.

That is the one from 2018?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is the one from 2018, yes.

On internal discipline or investigations, my colleagues raised the NBCI and its role. As Deputies, concerns often cross our desks by members of the force that cases are ongoing for some time. The Commissioner will probably be aware that I have sought the information through parliamentary question on the outstanding length of certain investigations by GSOC. That is outside of the Commissioner’s control. But I presume that inside the Commissioner’s control is the NBCI and the length of its investigations, particularly internal ones. Has the Commissioner figures for how many internal investigations are under way by the NBCI?

Mr. Drew Harris

The NBCI only takes on crime investigations. Its responsibility then, if there is evidence, is to report that to the DPP. A separate Garda member would then undertake the discipline investigation. So it would not all stay with NBCI.

But how many with the NBCI-----

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not have the precise figures of the investigations that NBCI has open at this time. In part, its work has been overtaken by the work of the anti-corruption unit which was formed specifically to take on-----

And when was that set up?

Mr. Drew Harris

Sorry?

When was the anti-corruption unit set up?

Mr. Drew Harris

It commenced in 2020 in terms of its investigative effort. I can return to the committee in writing on the specifics of investigations. The good position is that complaints against members of An Garda Síochána are reducing. Our own internal investigations are also reducing. We are on a very positive glide-path downwards in terms of allegations made and investigations being mounted. Indeed, even suspensions are also reducing. What drove up suspensions for a period was that courts were not sitting. Therefore that created delay and that is still working through.

Is the Commissioner saying that all the investigations in the internal investigation department of the NBCI have been transferred to the anti-corruption unit or are there cases outstanding under the remit of the NBCI?

Mr. Drew Harris

NBCI still has some investigations it is seeing through the trial process, in effect.

Okay. So they are the latter end of investigation.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes. The latter end.

On the volume of cases that the NBCI was dealing with, roughly how many would that have been annually?

Mr. Drew Harris

At this time, I can think of no new cases that NBCI has picked up recently. Either the anti-corruption unit has lifted them or indeed -----

So if I ask the same question of the anti-corruption unit, how many are we talking about? Is it double digits?

Mr. Drew Harris

Its figures are in the double digits. I do not have precise figures to hand but I can report on them. Particularly where there are allegations around domestic abuse and coercive control, then the National Protective Services Bureau would take that on.

And that is for internal concern for members of the force who are -----

Mr. Drew Harris

Members, yes.

This is obviously very important and there has been some success in that in recent days.

When the Commissioner gives us the information, it would be helpful to have it today. He will appreciate from our perspective, members are coming to us who are under investigation for a considerable time. Their being under investigation for such a long time without any real light at the end of the tunnel insofar as a conclusion to the investigation is concerned is not satisfactory. I am sure the Commissioner would appreciate that, is that right?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, it is entirely unsatisfactory. We want to expedite these matters as much as possible. In part I am dependent on GSOC and its investigations and then there are also the deliberations of the DPP. Beyond that, it is how long these matters take to move through the courts. There are serious crimes which are being alleged against Garda members.

I can appreciate that too. No one is saying that they should not be investigated but were I a member of the force and was involved in or the subject of an investigation, what is the chain of command? Is the assistant commissioner the person to whom the anti-corruption unit reports or is it directly to the Commissioner?

Mr. Drew Harris

The anti-corruption unit reports to an assistant commissioner with responsibility for governance and accountability.

What happens internally if someone feels their case has been ongoing for an inordinate time without any view of conclusion?

Mr. Drew Harris

Representations can be made to that assistant commissioner. Indeed, they can be made to my office. We always make it clear to the associations that we are open to representations at any time in relation to any cases that they pick up. I know Dr. Coxon and I have repeatedly made that clear to the associations, as has the assistant commissioner, governance.

In the note which the Commissioner furnishes the committee on those investigations, will he also attach the length of time for each one, please? It is not just the number of cases, as the Commissioner will appreciate. It is not all in his control either, I appreciate that. But the committee would like to know about the length of time because it has implications for the operational force of An Garda Síochána and the cost too.

Mr. Drew Harris

There is a limit to what is in my knowledge. I do not have an insight as to when GSOC might receive a complaint and when it begins its investigation.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Drew Harris

There is a body of knowledge there that I do not have.

On the knowledge that the Commissioner does have, we appreciate him sharing that.

Has An Garda Síochána made any declaration to the Revenue Commissioners?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes it has.

In the recent past?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

What was the disclosure or the disclosures?

Mr. Drew Harris

I might pass this over to Dr. Coxon, please.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

We made a voluntary disclosure to Revenue in December last year. That Revenue disclosure is still ongoing. We are continuing to engage with Revenue. We paid an amount in full and are continuing to work with Revenue on certain areas where we do not necessarily agree on the outcome. That is how the process works.

And the amount that was paid?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It was €7,481,394.

What did that relate to?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It relates to a series of things. The way things work with Revenue is one makes a voluntary disclosure and then it does not simply look at the particular issue that was raised, rather it looks at everything in the organisation. We have brought in a firm and a series of issues is being looked at.

I do not really want to get into the details until we have clarification from our-----

Can Dr. Coxon give a rough indication as to what it pertains to?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It pertains really to travel and subsistence and to whether taxes should be associated with a series of allowances.

Will that have implications for Garda members also? If there is a determination by Revenue, will it impact on the Garda force directly?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It will. There are certain areas, for example with respect to extraordinary State visits, where an allowance had been paid historically without tax which it looks like may be taxable now. Certainly, that is the position. We have already had to deal with this with respect to our associations. They are aware of it. Some of these issues have not been resolved. We need to figure out how to move forward in ways that have as minimal an impact as possible on members.

Some of it has already been implemented by An Garda Síochána, given what Revenue has said. Is that right?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

When I use the word "implemented", what I mean is that we have to move immediately to correct anything that is an issue. We have met the associations, made them aware of what the issues are and looked at other options.

My next question is for the Commissioner. Is there any correlation between the disclosures to Revenue in December and the retirement to which he referred?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, absolutely not.

I thank all of the witnesses for being here. A visit to the Committee of Public Accounts is never at the top of anyone's agenda. I know it involves a great deal of preparation. As much as anybody who comes before us, I know the witnesses have an incredible amount of work to do. On his appointment, the Commissioner said that crime is not like rain and does not fall equally everywhere. in light of those words, what has he done operationally?

Mr. Drew Harris

What I was referring to were crimes against those who are particularly vulnerable in our society. I was speaking in the context of domestic abuse, the abuse of children, particularly online, and cybercrime. We have invested in our protective services at national level and at divisional level. We have also invested in combating cybercrime. This has been very important given the rise of child abuse material which is online. It is an ongoing scourge and a very hidden crime. These were a couple of the things I had in mind. I was also reflecting that there is a difference in the experience of crime depending on where people might live in a town or city. The weight of crime, particularly that relating to drug dealing, will fall in areas that might be described as being deprived or disadvantaged. This is an extra layer or lever of disadvantage that is applied to these communities through violence, fear or drugs intimidation.

I accept the Commissioner's acknowledgement of this issue. When I was Lord Mayor of Dublin, we commissioned the Ballymun - A Brighter Future report. It was drafted by former Lord Mayor Andrew Montague. The Commissioner was very good to make Chief Superintendent Mark Curran available in that regard. The Commissioner probably noted that in December the Cabinet appointed John Costello as the new chair of the implementation board for Ballymun to try to help operationalise and implement some of the recommendations in the report.

One of the key elements of the report is that the northern division has 2.3 gardaí per 1,000 people. We have to conclude that some of the comments in the report came from within the Garda, because they are there. If we take out the 48 gardaí assigned to Dublin Airport, the figure drops to 1.7 gardaí per 1,000 people. These are the 2021 figures. This region includes Darndale, Coolock and Ballymun, which are all significant areas. How is it that Sligo, Cavan and Westmeath have more gardaí per 1,000 people than an area which, according to the report, has the third-highest murder and serious crime rates? Does the Commissioner see this inconsistency? Perhaps he could say a little about the methodology of how gardaí are deployed throughout the country. As Deputy Catherine Murphy stated, the Minister tells us this is entirely a matter for the Commissioner. Will the Commissioner give us an insight as to how we distribute gardaí?

Mr. Drew Harris

We have our workforce strategy and our workforce distribution process, in which I am engaged. We meet monthly and review where the vacancies and the requirements are, who is looking for what and how we balance the organisation. It has been made somewhat simpler in recent months because probationary gardaí have been starting from college. This allows movement to the divisions and into specialised roles.

Part of my function is to balance these resources to make sure that all of our operational units remain viable. Part of this involves ensuring that rural divisions have enough personnel to allow them to patrol properly and have sustainability. It is not just about the workload; it is about the geographical area they cover. It is also about the community policing service they provide. The new management information system we have had for the past four months, Garda Safe, has been rolled out nationally. It gives us a complete picture of where demand is at any one time. It highlights the disparities in demand between the various divisions, which are quite considerable. Some divisions have two or three times the number of calls for assistance as others. This gives an idea of the disparity. This is not only down to population. It brings in-----

I would love to see a methodology. Population is a factor, as is the level of crime. It should not be based on historic numbers in a station. The report states that between 2011 and 2020 the number of drugs offences doubled. This means gardaí on the ground have to do double the work and double the processing but they do not have double the numbers.

Mr. Drew Harris

I would point to the formation of divisional drugs teams and how successful they have been against street dealers and medium-size dealers who are big enough fish locally.

Divisional drugs teams are contained in the overall number of gardaí in a division. Is that true?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is correct.

I come back to the point as to how a division with one of the highest murder and serious crime rates has one of the lowest number of gardaí per 1,000 people? I could make the same case about the Blanchardstown and Finglas areas.

Mr. Drew Harris

We have responded to the demands in that division with the resources we have available. If we could spread more, we would do it. However, we have X resources available-----

I am not advocating for any other part of the country to have fewer gardaí. My colleagues have their job to do and I have my job to do.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

My constituency has one of the highest levels of crime, one of the highest murder rates and the fourth lowest number of gardaí per 1,000 people. How do I defend this? The only person in the country who can change it is the Commissioner.

Mr. Drew Harris

That is correct. Ultimately, I am responsible for the division of labour in the organisation but I have to make sure, as I say, that all of the divisions have sufficient numbers so that they are sustainable. I must also marry them to the resources we have. I would point to the additional resources applied to these very busy areas in terms of national units and regional units. They go to where the work is in terms of crime. These include the armed support unit. In the Dublin metropolitan region in particular, it is also includes the emergency response unit on patrol.

I hear what the Commissioner is saying. Perhaps the way to proceed, because I am about the work to be done to improve something, and the key for John Costello's group, is that senior decision-makers are committed to the process of implementation on the ground. This would involve the HSE, Tusla and other State agencies that often leave gardaí on the front line on their own without the support they should be getting. Perhaps I could ask the Commissioner for a commitment that engagement at a senior level will take place with John Costello's implementation group.

Mr. Drew Harris

Absolutely. We recognise the real hot spots that we have around policing demand and what we will do about this going forward. In part we hope the new community safety structure will further formalise this and then we can work collectively with other agencies on trying to reduce demand. We do recognise the huge amount of work that is undertaken by members in those divisions. I also have the nationwide responsibilities and national responsibilities, and it is about trying to maintain and build that sustainability everywhere.

Statistics can say many things, but there is very clear evidence that we do not have the Garda numbers that we should.

On another point, the Commissioner also helped support the working group we had in 2019 in respect of scrambler bikes. That working group has followed through and we now have the new Road Traffic and Roads Act 2023. It has been fantastic to see a problem that was in some ways more emblematic of a larger problem in its impact being dealt with, particularly as people felt the Garda was powerless to deal with it. It is really welcome that these additional powers are available and will be operationalised by An Garda Síochána. Gardaí will, for example, now be able to go into people's gardens and remove scramblers. They can be removed and destroyed, so they will not be going back out on the streets. I ask the Commissioner to keep going with that work.

E-scooters are being used as a mode of distribution by drugs gangs. I ask that An Garda Síochána also takes on board the provisions in the legislation that prevent underage children using e-scooters, e-scooters travelling above the speed limit and e-scooters being used on pavements. These are all ways by which we can make places safer for everybody. What has been provided in the legislation also provides a way of disrupting the distribution network the drugs gangs are using. They are using underage kids who look like they are just going about their business but are actually part of various networks.

I brought up the issue of e-scooters at the local joint policing committee meeting last week. I received a reply to a parliamentary question about the legality of the use of e-scooters. I do not have a copy with me, but I did give one to the local superintendent for distribution at the meeting in question. The reply indicated that the use of electric scooters in public places is not legal at present and that there is legislation forthcoming. I have brought this up a number of times. Deputy McAuliffe has brought it up again now. The problem remains. Perhaps we could even get them off the footpaths because pedestrians and others are being injured. These scooters do not travel at 10 km/h; some of them can do 40 km/h, 45 km/h or 50 km/h. Most can do 30 km/h no problem. If the Minister says they are illegal, can the Garda not do something? I have that reply in my office and can give it to the Garda Commissioner before the meeting is over. It indicates that e-scooters are illegal. The Garda superintendent and chief superintendent at the policing meeting seemed to concur. Why can the Garda not enforce this to at least get them off footpaths to keep pedestrians safe and to keep the users safe? Why can this not be done?

Mr. Drew Harris

The law is either-----

The law is black and white according to the reply.

Mr. Drew Harris

It is an element around overall roads policing enforcement. There have been serious incidents, up to and including vehicle incidents tragically, with people on electric scooters. It is an element and we in effect have to tool ourselves up in terms of electric vehicles, which in effect means we can follow them and put a stop-----

I will put it like this. I do not want to be unfair to those who use e-scooters to travel to work but drug dealers are also using them. It is not just drug dealers in Dublin; I see them locally as well. Pending the introduction of legislation, which I believe would prohibit their use on footpaths - although I am not au fait with the legislation - why can the approximately 10,000 or 11,000 gardaí who are deployed in community policing and traffic units, for example, not do something about it now when they see somebody using an e-scooter on a footpath?

Mr. Drew Harris

We can-----

It is not being done. This is what I am saying. Could a circular be sent out by the Commissioner to each division to the effect that pending the introduction of the legislation then at least we could get them off footpaths. The reply to my parliamentary question said they are illegal in public places. This tells me they are illegal on roads as well. I do not belong to the lock them up and throw away the key brigade. Some people use e-scooters to get to work, including people employed in the Oireachtas. I ask that, at least in the short term, action be taken to get these scooters off footpaths.

The Road Traffic and Roads Act is in place. It is legal to use e-scooters on roads but not on footpaths. Maybe the public is not aware of that. What the Chair, myself and others are saying to the Commissioner is that maybe a bit of communication and a high-profile operation are needed to help communicate that.

Has the legislation been signed by the President?

I believe it has.

It has been enacted.

Yes, the same provisions are in place for scrambler bikes. The e-scooters might have more complicating factors.

A circular should go out to every Garda division asking that they enforce the law around the use of e-scooters on footpaths, especially where there are school kids. Where my office is in Portlaoise there are many schools and people do go to school on them. If we issue that circular to An Garda Síochána it would be good.

Mr. Drew Harris

We will follow through on that and report back to the committee.

I appreciate that. We shall suspend now for a short break for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.07 a.m. and resumed at 11.18 a.m.

I call Deputy Dillon.

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues and thank them for joining us today and for all the work they do on behalf of the country's citizens. The first issue I raise relates to a query that Deputies commonly receive on Garda transfers. It especially relates to gardaí in my constituency who, on graduation from Templemore Garda College, may be deployed to the east or south of the country. In the current cost-of-living crisis, these gardaí are dealing with substantial rents and huge travel costs. Is there any policy on how the organisation will look at the deployment of resources, especially from a geographical area?

The days of a garda working within a 50-mile radius, which is the mantra used previously, are a thing of the past. Is there any movement on how human resources are deployed, especially those who are originally from regional locations?

Mr. Drew Harris

The old restrictions about geographic location, as opposed to where a person was brought up and where his or her family resided, have gone. However, there are still people who do not want to live in an area where they are so well known. We do not do this to upset people. We have to put our personnel where the demand is. Very often, where gardaí are moving out of Templemore, that allows for a series of consequential transfers to happen. These would apply to people who have had long-standing requests to move, as the Deputy says, from a certain region back to a home region. In effect, this creates some flow in the organisation. We really missed it for the three years that we did not have recruitment or students passing out from Templemore. That really stalled the process and there was a build-up of frustration in the organisation. I will hand over to Ms Cooke who manages this area.

Before the Commissioner does so, I want to make the point that this is a serious issue. Is the feedback from gardaí that they are waiting for years to get a transfer? At times it can be difficult because a transfer may be sanctioned but there is nothing in place to allow a swap between someone from a different divisional area or with a station officer who may be from a different area. Will we see movement on this issue? We see mobility in many other areas of the Civil Service but for gardaí it seems to be very difficult.

Mr. Drew Harris

It might be illustrative if I provide detail of the number of individuals who want to move and from where and to what location. There seems to be a genuine desire to move from the Dublin metropolitan region and return to home regions. This means to any other part of the country. We can provide the detail of that. When we look at the detail, we can see that there are no vacant positions for many places people want to move to. As vacancies are created, either by people being promoted or cessations, they are filled. To accede to all of those requests would greatly denude the policing effort in other places. It is simply not possible. We have to slowly let the pressure out of the system as best we can.

An issue of concern for me is the divisional area in which I reside, Mayo, Roscommon and Longford. I have raised this issue previously and I wrote to the Commissioner about the lack of a chief superintendent at the divisional headquarters in Castlebar. It is a concern and certainly the divisional headquarters deserves to have a chief superintendent but it is left without a resident superintendent. This is real problem when dealing with serious crime. Last May, Superintendent Joe McKenna retired but the chief superintendent is actually located in Roscommon, outside the divisional headquarters, which is a real problem. I do not think this is sustainable. The previous response I got on this was that there was a superintendent adjacent, in Claremorris, but that is not a chief superintendent. The feeling on the ground in the Castlebar divisional headquarters for the area is that there should be a chief superintendent. Is this something the Garda will review in relation to the deployment of resources?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

I appreciate that there is a sentiment around the difference between a chief superintendent and a superintendent. As we are moving in to the operating model across the country, we actually have more superintendents than we have ever had before. We are trying to rationalise what makes sense with respect to chief superintendents across the country. I will certainly take a look at this point. We had a full review of the operating model last year so I know this issue will have been looked at. That is probably why the Deputy got the answer he did. We are trying to make it so that the chief superintendents do not have a burdensome amount of work to do. Everybody wants this and I completely appreciate what the Deputy is saying.

I do not accept Dr. Coxon's response because there has always been a chief superintendent in the Mayo division, in Castlebar. The former chief superintendent took a case against the Commissioner, which was resolved. There were allegations of serious wrongdoing within the Mayo division. The case has now concluded. Is it something the Commissioner can report on? It was settled out of court. Was there a payment or was there any form of settlement agreed with the former chief superintendent for Mayo?

Mr. Drew Harris

There was no settlement. In effect, the individual concluded his service and left the organisation. This is a matter that I might take some legal advice on but there was no settlement.

He took out a High Court injunction to stop his employment from going into resignation. Certainly, there was a case to be answered and it was settled. I am simply asking for the specifics around why it was settled.

Mr. Drew Harris

No, it was not settled.

Is it still outstanding?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, the case has been concluded.

On what grounds?

Mr. Drew Harris

On the grounds that he resigned from the organisation.

Was there any settlement or payment?

Mr. Drew Harris

There was a contribution towards the costs of mediation, which took place over a protracted period. There was no settlement.

How are those costs accounted for in the annual financial accounts?

Mr. Drew Harris

They would be within our legal costs.

Are they itemised to allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to look at them?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes, they are in our accounts and it can be seen how we have dealt with cases.

The fact that there was a current chief superintendent on suspension awaiting the review of his case was used as being one of the barriers to the appointment of a chief superintendent. Thankfully, that has been concluded.

Mr. Drew Harris

It was always the intention that there would be one chief superintendent for Mayo, Roscommon and Longford under the new operating model.

Should the chief superintendent be stationed in the divisional headquarters?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is for the chief superintendent to determine how he runs his division.

Not having the chief superintendent stationed in the divisional headquarters makes the division an outlier compared with other divisional areas. Does the Commissioner agree?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes, that is where the other chief superintendents, in effect, have their offices but they have an area to look after as well.

I want to move on to another incident in the midlands that has been covered by the media and undermines public trust and confidence in the Garda organisation. I refer to the case at the start of the Covid pandemic when a garda knowingly gave a bicycle to an elderly man.

Deputy, we discussed this earlier.

It is an important issue.

I know, but before you proceed, I want you to be careful. It was outlined that there is an ongoing process in relation to this matter. I will allow the Commissioner to answer but just be careful not to name anyone.

I will not name anyone. I just want to ask the Commissioner about the erosion of public trust in his organisation caused by this case.

In this case, the GRA has commented that it lacked common sense and proportionality in the investigation. Does Mr. Harris agree with that summary?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, I do not agree with that. The problem is that all the facts as they were initially known are not in the public domain. If I step back from that, I do have a responsibility for our PEM system, that is, our property and evidence management system. In that system we have literally thousands of pieces of property and exhibits, and a huge amount of cash, drugs and firearms. It is absolutely essential that we keep the integrity of that system.

We put that system in place at huge expense and linked it to the PULSE system for very good reasons because we want to be sure about the continuity of evidence but we also want to be sure of the security of property that comes into our possession. We have a very clear policy in respect of that, and it specifically talks about bicycles in the policy as well. This system is there for very good and sound operational reasons around protecting property and continuity of evidence. I am not quite sure what a common-sense approach is, if you somehow resile yourself from the position that you are not going to protect the property that comes into your possession.

On the fact that the bicycle was knowingly given to the elderly man, is it common practice that the NBCI, which is involved in investigating serious and organised crime, would investigate this matter and deploy a six-man team to search this officer's home?

Mr. Drew Harris

Again, I have to be guarded in what I say because-----

You are the chief super.

Mr. Drew Harris

-----although I did not this name individual, the individual is a person who serves in An Garda Síochána and is obviously known. I cannot set out the full circumstances of the case.

Is it proportional?

Mr. Drew Harris

I saw the rationale for why that was done. I understand why it was done. I understand the judgment of the very experienced chief superintendents, one who made the request and the second one who acceded to the request to take on the investigation.

Does Mr. Harris accept that there was no case to answer from the DPP?

Mr. Drew Harris

The DPP directed no prosecution.

Does Mr. Harris accept that there was no basis for a prosecution in this regard?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, there was a case to submit to the Director of Public Prosecutions to be determined, and that is precisely what happened.

There will be a second round, Deputy. I want to be careful with regard to the individual case because there is a report pending on it, is that correct?

Mr. Drew Harris

I have just received the report from the chair of the panel. That has to be considered and then I have to report to the Policing Authority and the Minister as well.

I suppose the Deputies are wondering if there was proportionality in respect of what threshold the NCBI comes in at. That is the question here. On the face of it, it seemed to be a relatively small matter. It is about what point they come in at and the use of resources there.

Mr. Drew Harris

Again, all of the facts are not in the public domain. There is the aspect of having an independent investigation separate from a Garda member's station.

I thank Mr. Harris. On the e-scooters, I have the answer here to the relevant part of it. I am not going to read the whole thing but the second paragraph says that regulations for e-scooters are now expected to be in place by quarter 1 of 2024. I do not know if any of the Deputies have any information on that. Deputy McAuliffe seems to think that it may be in place but it says, "E-scooters will not be legal to use in public places until that time". That would tell me that it includes roads and footpaths but as I said earlier on, people are using them to get to work on cycle lanes and so on. Legislation is expected but with regard to footpaths, if that letter could be sent out to Garda divisions it would be good.

On the Garda Reserve, the provision for the Garda Reserve was €1.395 million, and the outturn was €126,000. When I am going through some of the research and the backup information that was provided for us today, I look at what is happening here. We have a situation, which has been well outlined both here and in other forums, regarding low Garda numbers but here we have a situation where less than one tenth of the budget was spent on the Garda Reserve. It is a low budget to start with, less than €1.4 million. What is happening there? It says that one explanation for this is that recruitment targets are a problem. Is there an effort being made to try to bring people into it? Is it that the allowances are not sufficient to bring people into it? What is happening with the Garda Reserve, in short? It was hailed at the time as being a support for regular gardaí, and that they would be out on patrol with regular gardaí. Given that we are in the middle of a staffing crisis, or certainly a staffing shortage, why have we only spent less than one tenth of the budget? It was only €126,000 in 2022, out of a provision of €1.4 million.

Mr. Drew Harris

There are a number of factors here. We have a Garda strategy. We were awaiting the new Garda Reserve regulations to allow for their recruitment. We have those regulations now, and they have come through Cabinet. That allows us then to open up a recruitment programme for the Garda Reserve. I might turn to Ms Cooke on the timing of that recruitment.

Briefly as well, on allowances, they do not receive pay per hour or anything like that but I understand there are some kind of allowances. Briefly, what are those?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Timing wise, it is an imminent recruitment launch. We are engaging the Public Appointments Service. It is definitely going to be within the next quarter. That will be a national competition, and regionalised in terms of our outreach as well. At this point in time, we sit with 346 in the Garda Reserve, and our intention is to demonstrably increase that. What we will be highlighting is the role of volunteering in Ireland, and the specialist experience and qualifications that individuals may have.

On the stipend, I will have to check. I think it is in or around €1,000. I will have to specifically get-----

I am in favour of it because obviously it costs you money to-----

Ms Yvonne Cooke

It is effectively a small amount to cover expenses. That is something-----

That is maybe for travelling in and out to work.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Yes, that is my understanding. I will have to get the Chair some specifics.

Or if somebody has to arrange a babysitter while they are-----

Ms Yvonne Cooke

The point of it is that it is a volunteering role. Other than the Garda trainee or Garda staff, it is a fundamental role for the organisation but we will be focusing on the benefit of volunteering. The amount that individuals are paid is something that we will be reviewing. We really will only know when we go out with our outreach and active engagement what the public is saying.

It is in the region of about €1,000 a year at the moment.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

That is my understanding.

On the figures that Ms Cooke gave, around 340, that is a drop of 30 since this time last year. It was 371 in March 2023.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

We have 346 as of 29 February.

That is a drop of 25.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

In 2023, it was 351, and in 2022 it was 375. If we look at our peak, 2019-----

March 2023 was 371. That is the figure I have here.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

At the end of 2023 it was 351.

In March it was 371. How many were there at the height? Ms Cooke were just about to say that.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

According to our data, in 2019 - working back over the last number of years - there were 458. That will highlight a couple of things. One is people who, first and foremost, just decided it was not for them going forward. We also did a significant exercise in ensuring that people are actively deployed, and where they had not been, we engaged with them with regard to whether they had-----

Is there resistance from regular gardaí to having reserves deployed with them?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

We do not experience that. What I would say is that we are going to be actively engaging with chief superintendents and superintendents locally to look at how we can best support the Garda Reserve and policing operationally at a local level. We think there are better ways in which we can deploy for greater visibility. We have not witnessed in any way-----

Obviously if somebody is in a paid job, that is their livelihood. If somebody is a carpenter by day and they are volunteer policeman or woman by night, on one night at the weekends or whatever, you can see why regular members would maybe feel that their position is being undermined, with respect to their representative body or union. That is not a block?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

It has not been our experience.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

What I would say is that staff associations are always keen to highlight the need to continue to increase the Garda trainee cadre.

That is clear in terms of the regulars but there has been no resistance to the reserve.

I am coming to that. I thank Ms Cooke. In his opening statement, the Commissioner said something about recruitment that surprised me. He said that in 2022, the Garda ran a recruitment competition that attracted 11,000 applications. He remarked that a lot of people want to join, which is all to the good. However, at the end of that year, how many new gardaí did we get? Was it 400 or 500 out of 11,000 applicants?

Mr. Drew Harris

The Cathaoirleach might give me a moment. We have the precise figures for the outturn of each of those competitions. Ms Cooke may have the figures to hand.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

For the 2022 competition, we received 10,500 applications. That competition brought more than 1,800 candidates through to the Garda stages of the process. There are currently 291 still in that-----

The 1,800 applicants progressed into training.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

They progressed into the Garda-----

They came through and successfully came out at the other end as members.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

They came through our selection processes. The Garda has physical competence, medical and drug-testing requirements, to name just a few. There are still 291 active candidates from that particular competition. When we move to 2023, there were 4,973 applicants for the competition. The number that came through to the Garda stages of that selection process was 1,047.

Some 291 of the 10,500 who came through that year are still there. It would appear that the recruitment and retention rate in respect of applicants who become full officers of the Garda is approximately one in 50.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

There is significant attrition the whole way through the process.

Only about one in 50 applicants makes it and is retained. There are 291 remaining of those 10,500 or 11,000 applicants.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

The process is still ongoing. Some 291 applicants from the 2022 competition are still in the active stages of selection. From the 2023 competition, there are still 740 applicants. All in, there are just under 1,000 prospective gardaí from the two previous competitions. Some 6,381 applicants applied for the 2024 competition, as the Commissioner alluded to. That process is ongoing. We hope to see lists come through from the Public Appointments Service in late April or early May. At this point, we have a fluid pipeline and we are regularly recruiting into the college itself. The next intake will be in a couple of------

For 2022, the numbers being recruited and retained appear to be very low. Ms Cooke went on to say there is still a panel from the 2023 competition. However, those who applied in 2022 are not still on a panel.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Some of them are still on a panel.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

From 2022 and 2023-----

Some of those candidates may work through.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

That is absolutely the case. I will highlight that while there is attrition through the process, there are also people who seek to defer. Large numbers are deferring coming into the Garda College because they are completing academic qualifications. That is also a factor to consider.

For people who resign or move on from the force, are exit interviews carried out?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

There are.

Are there exit interviews?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Yes.

What is the main reason they give for leaving?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

There are a number of reasons. Our exit interviews-----

What are the three most common?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Some of them have been discussed here today. There are differences between Garda members and staff. Among the issues that Garda members are raising is that the job has changed in their view. It is much more complex than they experienced it to be in years gone by. There is a very vibrant employment market at this point so, at times, people are leaving for jobs that are closer to home. Departing Garda members have also highlighted issues with the pension, which is not considered as attractive as it was.

That is the new pension regime.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Yes. There is a whole host of issues. On the Garda staff side, there have been some issues pertaining to uncertainty around the new Act and so on. I assure the committee that we are analysing the key themes. As the Commissioner said, we have in draft a recruitment and retention strategy, influenced by our staff associations and unions, to address those issues.

I will ask the Commissioner about the non-compliant procurement in 2022. There was €10.8 million for goods and services. There were 18 cases to the value of €3.8 million for towing services. I presume that mainly relates to towing vehicles off motorways and so on. Is that right? What is that for?

Mr. Drew Harris

That relates to all sorts of vehicles, including those involved in crime and road traffic collisions. It also includes vehicles that are seized for having no insurance, as well as vehicles that might form part of an investigation.

Does the figure include towing vehicles that have broken down on a motorway? How does that work? Does it go to tender?

Mr. Drew Harris

That goes out to tender. It is an active process and we are almost at the conclusion of it. Two divisions are still outstanding in that we have not finalised a contract.

Which divisions are those?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is for the storage of vehicles.

Which divisions are those?

Mr. Drew Harris

Cork and Cork west are still outstanding in terms of storage locations.

It would be fair to say that a number of businesses in a particular county or division are providing towing or lift services with breakdown trucks and that.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

That is particularly the case for lighter vehicles such as cars, jeeps and smaller vans. There are only two outstanding divisions. When does the Commissioner hope to have the process complete? When will all those go out to full procurement?

Mr. Drew Harris

What we are waiting for in respect of that tender is reassurance around the provision of the necessary storage for vehicles. The equipment to lift and tow the vehicles, or whatever might be required, is in place but it is also necessary to secure storage of the vehicles. That is what we are concerned with now. Everywhere is now subject to a tender process. Companies have been successful in securing tenders. We are just left with issues we want to resolve in two cases.

Just over €4 million has been reported as the cost for translation. What efforts are being made to get that into competitive procurement?

Mr. Drew Harris

That service has since been tendered for and a contract is now in place after tender.

There are a number of other costs that I will not list. There were some medical costs. There were 13 cases to a value of €1.35 million for a variety of things. What are we talking about there? Are we talking about repairs to Garda cars? What are we talking about there in respect of those 13 other cases?

Mr. Drew Harris

Another member of the team can give detail on those.

Ms Eimear Bourke

We are currently conducting a review, which is due to be finished in the next number of months, of all the existing contracts in place. For anything that fell outside the procurement regulations, we will have a remediation plan to resolve those issues. Specifically with regard to-----

There are a number of providers of services for vehicles, including for fleet maintenance and all of that. At this point, is all of that tendered? If the Garda wants new tyres, does it go to one company? I am just picking that as an example. Does one company supply the Garda? Was that tendered in the past couple of years?

Ms Eimear Bourke

With respect to that particular question, I can come back to the Cathaoirleach with the exact detail. It is part of the review that is currently going on across all the contracts that are in place.

I am asking about the servicing of vehicles. As the person over finance, is Ms Bourke not able to state today that servicing is tendered out?

Ms Eimear Bourke

With respect-----

Dr. Shawna Coxon

I can answer, if it helps. To be fair to Ms Bourke, I know about this prior to her coming into the role. It has been tendered out. That is why there has been a change in our vehicles in recent years. There has been a change to the process for how we do things across the country. It is all linked to the fact that it is now a tender process.

I understand that for some specialist services, the Garda cannot tender because there is only one provider.

We see cases involving €10 million or €11 million and there are multiple suppliers. Not everybody may want to do it. They may be too busy or unable to get mechanics, for example, in the case of the motor trade, and they may not be in a position to provide the services. Perhaps the Garda Commissioner could give us a report on what is outstanding and has not been competitively tendered.

Mr. Drew Harris

Perhaps I could give just one further piece of assurance around the quality of the work that is done on the vehicles around servicing. These things are all now recorded electronically. Images are taken of the work being done and the parts that are being taken away and repaired or replaced, whatever the case may be. The transport manager is able to show me the rigour of that by just picking out the repair of any patrol vehicle or the service or any patrol vehicle and the actual documentary record of precisely what has been done and completed. It is a rigorous process. We will certainly get back to the committee on all the contracts in place. Being a national service, maybe one supplier could supply us nationally.

I understand. Perhaps the Garda Commissioner could come back to us with what is outstanding and has not been competitively tendered. I thank the Commissioner for that.

Deputy Devlin focused on the resignations from the finance side of the organisation, including the executive director. Some other people departed at the same time, including staff at principal officer level. Was there a commonality to the reason they all left roughly at the same time? This is the Committee of Public Accounts so if there was a commonality, are there any concerns about the waste of public money?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will clarify. The executive director of finance resigned so, I am sorry, it was not a retirement. That is my correction.

In respect of any other movements there have been, those individuals have moved in effect under Civil Service mobility. They saw an opportunity that suited their work-life balance better in terms of the ability to work at home and to transfer.

Was there a commonality of reason for these events?

Mr. Drew Harris

None that was set out to me. No.

Was there a spending plan - I presume there always is - in relation to the visit by President Biden?

Mr. Drew Harris

The first part was actually the operational plan and that was very fluid. Subsequently, as part of the planning process, it is called an extraordinary event. The financial consequences of an extraordinary event calls for the detailing of Garda members and also supplying as best we could accommodation and meals, where possible.

Can we have a note on that?

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

With the Garda strained numbers-wise, that will obviously create additional pressure.

I want to move on to the figures for-----

Mr. Drew Harris

If it helps the Deputy, I have some figures for the President Biden visit, which might set it in some context.

I would be happy to get a note on that as I have only a small amount of speaking time left.

I will skip through a number of other issues. The non-Garda staff members of the force are important. I am told that a large number of these staff are seeking to transfer out. I believe the figure is some 1,600 out of 3,000. Would that be correct?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will pass that over to Ms Cooke.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

There are currently in the region of 900 Garda staff on mobility lists. Effectively, this is where they are leaving their options open to opportunities that may arise in other Departments. The figure is 900.

The number of people applying for jobs from other parts of the Civil Service does not give rise to the same movement as there is among the civilian staff of An Garda Síochána. Is that not the case? Is it an impediment?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Is this in terms of mobility within the Civil Service?

Ms Yvonne Cooke

At this point in time, there are opportunities within the organisation itself so we are seeing Garda staff going for specialist competitions-----

That is movement within the Garda.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

Also, at this point in time, Garda staff still have access to mobility. That mobility scheme means they can apply for opportunities elsewhere within the Civil Service.

I presume An Garda Síochána has put in place contingency plans because of the very large number of staff involved.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

We have had to do so, yes, but as the Deputy can appreciate, that number is significant. We discussed earlier the importance of having a fluid pipeline for Garda staff recruitment.

At the same time, the Garda would want to hold onto people. It takes a long time for people to be trained. The Garda wants a degree of stability. That kind of movement would not fill me with confidence about viability in the context of stability within stations, for example.

Mr. Drew Harris

It is a significant concern because these staff do important work. If we do not have that experience or if people opt for mobility and leave the organisation, that will impact on the whole operation in terms of the management and running of An Garda Síochána. There has been an increase in mobility transfers over the last four years. I believe it is driven in part by the sentiment of uncertainty around the implementation of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, what impact that legislation will have on their terms and conditions, the movement from being a civil servant to a public servant and what precisely that will mean for them and their career.

I presume the Garda Commissioner has interaction with the Minister on that?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is ongoing.

On roads policing, in 2023 there were 104 fewer Garda policing the roads than there were in 2021. That is a substantial drop in numbers. Road deaths have increased and it is difficult to avoid making some sort of a correlation there. Will the Garda Commissioner provide us with more information on this? Is roads policing the poor relation? Does it get the kind of attention it requires? What is the plan of action to bring the number back up to what is needed?

Mr. Drew Harris

What number did the Deputy quote?

There are 104 fewer-----

Mr. Drew Harris

We are in or around 650 gardaí in roads policing across the country.

Is that figure back up to where it was? I am just relying on a reply I received to a parliamentary question.

Mr. Drew Harris

In effect, the number has been of that order for the last three to four years. I would point to the equipment and the productivity that brings for the roads policing members and other members. We have an improved roadside breath test device, an improved drug test device for the roadside, speed detection equipment and number plate recognition.

I understand that but the personnel are needed to do-----

Mr. Drew Harris

The personnel are there. We have kept them on the ground and on patrol by giving them electronic equipment that allows them to deal with matters remotely while working on the ground. That includes a car insurance mobile app.

I acknowledge that much of that is very positive but it is also about the number of personnel. I will resubmit a parliamentary question to get up-to-date numbers.

Has the Garda Commissioner brought the tax issue to the Tax Appeals Commission or did it go directly to Revenue?

Dr. Shawna Coxon

It went directly to Revenue and it is still with it.

I will go back to the question I asked about the allocation of resources. I remember meeting an assistant commissioner 25 years ago and being told that divisions would not give up resources and they have what they hold, which means there is a real difficulty for areas that are growing in population. I have looked at policing plan after policing plan and it is like cut and paste or copy and paste. Meath has the lowest ratio of gardaí to population, followed by Kildare. Deputy McAuliffe drew attention to the very high levels of crime in a particular division.

There is a difficulty. It appears that population does not play that big a part. I understand that is only one part of how resources are deployed, that where risks are has to be looked at, and there are other demands, such as cybercrime, which concern all of Ireland rather than one particular area. The Covid pandemic meant there was a loss of an opportunity. That is where the buoyancy is to build up areas that are under-resourced. These areas are growing in population but are not getting the resources to go along with that growth. It is very difficult to see where there is an actual plan that counts things such as population and, as Deputy McAuliffe said, that counts crime. I just cannot make head nor tail of how the resources are allocated.

Mr. Drew Harris

There is a distribution model. If one just went with population and incidents, in effect, you would then be applying a very, and only, mathematical formula to-----

You cannot ignore population either.

Mr. Drew Harris

-----distribution of resources. You cannot ignore population but, at the same time, in part, why we have such a strong connection with communities is we value that as well, beyond the incidents and the population. In very many locations, the fact that we still have a one- or two-member station, is a real anchor for a community. I entirely respect that. If I go just to where the demand is, and over the past 20 years I have seen that when consultancy firms have been employed, they draw up a model that is entirely about, "Here is your demand. Here is your population", then something of value is lost. I have a responsibility around rural policing and the nature of that service we provide. Quite often, we are the representative-----

I will put it in context. If the Commissioner were to look at policing levels, for example, in County Meath, where the Minister for Justice is located, and the resources there and the average resources nationally, tongue in cheek, if the resources in Meath were to be deployed elsewhere, he could cut the police force in half. That is the level of cover. Population does not seem to matter. The big growth areas have been Fingal, counties Meath and Kildare, and south Dublin. That is the arc of growth, yet there is no matching correlation with the deployment of additional resources with that. Is that because an inadequate number of people are coming out of Templemore? Is that the only place the Garda gets the resources from? If that is the case, how does it ever catch up in areas like that?

Mr. Drew Harris

The 14,000, in effect, has been the number I have had throughout my tenure for more than five years. That has been the portion I had to deploy. The country has grown, and the demands upon us have grown in terms of complexity, and I have had to deploy the resources accordingly. We could do with, at least, another 1,000. We could then push that towards those areas of high demand. We know from gardaí precisely where the demand is and we wish to service that.

The group of people who came out of Templemore just before Christmas was just after the Dublin riots. That was understandable because a capital city cannot be policed on overtime. I imagine a high amount of overtime is being used over and above the €10 million that was allocated to Dublin. I am hearing that people from outside the Dublin region are being asked whether they want overtime in Dublin. I assume that the issue of resources in Dublin is still an ongoing issue. However, if the new recruits go there, which is understandable because there was a particular problem, and I believe there still is, the Garda will never catch up in other areas. It is just very difficult to see how the Garda ever properly looks at resourcing areas that are growing in population.

Mr. Drew Harris

There are two legs to that. One is the actual number of Garda members who join and we then allot. The second is Garda staff and what roles they undertake to, in effect, displace Garda members from administrative or operational support-type roles, even front-desk duty, so that they are out on the ground or taking on some form of detective duty. It is about how we use the resources we have as well. Again, this month, when we have 100% of people on the RDMS system, we will know precisely how people are being used. We completed the roster negotiations on Tuesday and they seem to have been positively received by the association. Hopefully, we can move to a new roster, which better places resources on duty when they are needed for operations.

The Commissioner mentioned something about monitoring the number of calls coming in and where they are coming from. There are places where people do not bother calling. They do not bother calling because they do not expect to get a service. That is not to be critical of the gardaí who are there. They can only do what they can do. I have a lot of engagement with the gardaí in my local area and I am very complimentary about them. There is just not enough of them. If the Garda are measuring things such as calls, it also has to measure public attitudes as to whether people expect those calls to be followed up. People will obviously not bother calling if they think it is not likely to be responded to.

Mr. Drew Harris

I acknowledge that. For the first time, this year, our public attitudes survey will go down to divisional level so we will get that sort of local sentiment around people's local fear of crime, and Garda visibility, response and interaction. That will give us a division by division picture as opposed to a national picture. A national picture can look very positive but I appreciate the impact of crime and disorder issues on individuals can be very different. That is something we want to address. I also point to the new community safety arrangements that are coming in place where we will work with other partners in resolving these more long-term issues around the quality of life in places.

I will go back to staffing and budgets. The overall pay budget in 2022 was €1.76 billion. The breakdown of that was €1.32 billion for pay for gardaí within the service. There was then €404 million for staff pensions. That seems a high amount. How many pensioners are there at any given time? Maybe Ms Cooke will have the numbers.

Mr. Drew Harris

On how many pensioners?

Yes, at any given time.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will turn to Ms Cooke. In truth, I have never inquired about that figure. I do not know.

You must have a-----

Mr. Drew Harris

We will know and we can get it.

Is it 3,000 or 4,000, or 5,000?

Mr. Drew Harris

The one figure that comes to mind is from the 2022 centenary celebrations. I think it is upwards of 6,000. We will get the precise number.

Okay. On the issue of staffing, according to the website, a number of assistant commissioner posts are vacant. These include four key regional operational commands, namely, the northern, western, southern and Dublin metropolitan regions. It appears that has been going on for a number of years. To clarify, is the information on the website correct regarding the assistant commissioner posts being vacant, which includes four in regional operational commands? Is that correct?

Mr. Drew Harris

None of those positions are vacant.

The information on the website is not updated.

Mr. Drew Harris

That is wrong.

That is okay.

Mr. Drew Harris

The website is wrong.

I will raise the issue of the major public order incident and the riots in Dublin, and the measures taken since then in relation to that.

I know hindsight is great but it seems things came apart that evening.

In terms of An Garda Síochána's structures and units, a special tactics and operations command unit was established in 2017. Of particular concern, and someone showed it to me on social media at the time, was one incident in which there was a garda in a small Ford Escort van or something like that and a group surrounded it and they were going to burn the van. There was a garda in the passenger seat. That is what it looked like in the clip on social media. The driver had gone up the road to attend to something else so the garda who was the passenger was alone in the vehicle. You could hear the conversation and the shouting between those who were going to burn it. The only thing that saved it was that there was someone in the back whom they knew and were associated with. There was a prisoner in the secure area in the back.

There were a couple more incidents. There was one also on social media of a garda standing near what looked like O'Connell Bridge. He was left in a situation in which he did not seem to have a baton or anything and was left isolated, on his own, surrounded by a crowd and caught in a very difficult situation. There was another incident in which two gardaí cycled right into the middle of the whole thing. The bicycles were literally taken off them and they had to flee into a licensed premises for their own safety.

I want to try to be fair. I know, particularly in a riot situation, you cannot plan for what is going to happen because things evolve, change, escalate quickly and dangerous situations can arise in which people may have to move around. Rank-and-file gardaí told me they contacted each other on WhatsApp and their own mobile phones and that people were, without any command or structure, basically being urged by their colleagues in the Dublin area to get into Dublin because they needed help. People answered that call, including people who were off duty. I do not mean this in a smart way but I have seen the Garda being very effective at policing situations and generally there is good policing of demonstrations and protests. It works grand and there is a bit of co-operation between the organisers and the Garda. Where there is the level of violence we saw that day, if there is a special tactics and operations command unit which was established in 2017, what happened on that day that there seemed to be no co-ordination? There did not seem to be any kind of co-ordination or strategy to try to deal with or get on top of the situation. Gardaí were without equipment. Who sent gardaí into those situations where they were left isolated like that, on their own?

Mr. Drew Harris

The stock is actually the firearms side. We were the subject of an inspection by the inspectorate into public order policing in 2019. There were a series of recommendations, which have been implemented. Part of that was a strategic threat risk analysis document around public order. The figures show there was an increase in 2022, when we spent €140,000 on public order equipment, and that increased to about €700,000 in 2023. A quarterly group sits and looks specifically at public order. In the interim, we increased the number of people we trained and the amount of equipment available to public order units. At the moment, we have 1,141 inspectors, sergeants and gardaí trained in public order. Beyond that-----

Is that 130 in total within the service?

Mr. Drew Harris

It is 1,141.

Sorry, 1,141.

Mr. Drew Harris

Beyond that, there are tactical advisers, instructors and protest removal teams as well. On the day, there was the terrible stabbing incident and then the sentiment that started online among those with a very extreme point of view. That developed and became an ugly and hostile crowd at both sides of that cordon. From then, having viewed a major incident in terms of the stabbing, and we were not clear on the day how that was going to unravel-----

There has been a review.

Mr. Drew Harris

There has been an operational debrief and observations have been made. The assistant commissioner is now leading on the review of public order. That involves looking at equipment, tactics and the training provided.

What is the Commissioner's observation at this point as to what went wrong? What are the three things?

Mr. Drew Harris

To use a sporting analogy, scramble defence. As we brought people on duty, properly equipped, the situation developed in front of us. Second was the issue around communications. The command of individuals on the ground and communication among them was a big issue. The call-up of members was not an issue. People communicate on the WhatsApp group within their public order serials and a lot of the messages that went out were official messages. People went to a rally point and were then brought in. Garda members went to a rally point, were equipped and came into town. The stores were open.

It did not appear like a lot of them were equipped. Two gardaí were on bicycles in the middle of that situation.

Mr. Drew Harris

What happened was that, well away from the actual scene, down at O'Connell Bridge, in effect, turning traffic away from O'Connell Street, a group attacked a Garda sergeant. The Garda sergeant was properly equipped but knew it was best that he concentrate on keeping on his feet and retreating back towards Pearse Street because the law of averages would suggest that other Garda members would be coming around the corner to his aid. A bus driver tried to come to his assistance and another Garda member on a bicycle came to his assistance. In the end, doormen on a pub came to their assistance and they got refuge in a licensed premises. That was a terrible incident for them. I spoke to that sergeant on a couple of occasions in the aftermath. Similarly, in the incident in which the individual was on their own, that was only for a short period. Other Garda members then came to his assistance. There were a series of very nasty incidents, it has to be said, and attacks on Garda members. All of those matters are under investigation. Only this week, we circulated internally images of people we want-----

Mr. Harris said "under investigation". Sometimes investigations, reviews and examinations take a long time. There need to be at least interim findings implemented quickly.

Mr. Drew Harris

The operational debrief was done within four weeks. We are in a period of implementation of the observations that were made and converting those into recommendations which we will implement. We have to look at-----

Is the Commissioner confident that if something like that arose this evening, the Garda is better equipped to deal with it?

Mr. Drew Harris

We bought shields, and stronger incapacitant spray has already been issued to everyone and the standing public order units. We had standing public order units on on 23 November as well but have increased numbers in the city centre.

There is a clip of six or eight on a very wide street trying to stop people going down it. It did not look like they had batons. They were public order gardaí. They were soft caps, I think is the term. You would have needed 26 or 28.

Mr. Drew Harris

That is in part what we have to examine around tactics about using vehicles as blockers. People were looking after their vehicles; I would have preferred if they had put their vehicles on the front line to take the abuse. That is where we are going to go with tactics.

There is a unit that specifically looks at social media. What kind of numbers are in that unit?

Mr. Drew Harris

In the headquarters, that unit is within the national security side of investigations.

We do not normally issue figures for the number of individuals who are engaged in that work. We have recently accepted a policy change around our open source intelligence gathering, but even that brings with it a national security element. Beyond that, there are also intelligence units, certainly in the Dublin metropolitan region, DMR, around social media and open source intelligence.

The algorithms on my Twitter account are all over the place because I have been keeping an eye on a few things. For example, there were two arson attacks on the same building in my area. There is the same profile. It may not be the same people who are burning buildings and they may not use the same means to set them on fire but there is a commonality in respect of the transfer of information across social media. It feels like a very softly, softly approach with regard to some of these people. Mr. Harris commented on that in the recent past, when he spoke about not making martyrs out of them. I am probably putting words in his mouth, but it was something of that nature. Has he changed his view on that since the Dublin riots and since the number of arson attacks has accelerated - pardon the pun - to approximately ten in the past three or four months?

Mr. Drew Harris

In respect of those individuals and extreme political viewpoints, much of which is transmitted through social media, our interest is more in intelligence gathering and the criminal investigation of them, which is conducted-----

That is after the event.

Mr. Drew Harris

No, we are investigating the potential for conspiracy to commit violence or law-breaking. That is a proactive operation which is undertaken by the special detective unit. Its members are supported in intelligence gathering. Furthermore, as we open investigations, identify suspects and seize evidence, including electronic media, we are able to get a better picture of what the linkages might be. There is no softly, softly approach. I have to say that I never used the expression "softly, softly".

I accept I put words in Mr. Harris's mouth. I was paraphrasing.

Mr. Drew Harris

Regarding the arson attacks on centres set aside as IPAS accommodation, we have taken them all as being major investigations. That means a senior investigating officer, SIO, has been appointed and we have brought to bear all the investigative means we can. That has borne fruit in terms of reports to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and people being charged.

Some of them were not intended for that use.

Mr. Drew Harris

That makes it extraordinarily difficult for us because false sentiment is being spread around and no matter what we do to say it is wrong, individuals are still motivated to attack.

What additional resources are provided to the local division in terms of the intelligence gathered from social media in an area where there is a protest, such as at Crooksling, for example, where a building was set on fire? I think it was intended to be IPAS accommodation. Would the local Garda station be relied upon to have the resource itself or to use social media to track what is happening and what people are saying?

Mr. Drew Harris

There is information beyond social media.

Mr. Drew Harris

We draw on all sources of information. Communities also tell us a lot. The policing operation we put in place will be commensurate with what we feel the threat is. It may be for the local division to manage, but invariably it will often draw upon other resources being brought to bear from that region. Other regions might also be asked to support, especially around the provision of members trained in public order and part of public order serials.

That concludes questions from members. I thank the witnesses and staff of An Garda Síochána and the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform for preparing for today's meeting and the information supplied. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, and Ms Keane for attending.

Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions? Agreed. A fair bit of that is being sought.

Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings for today's meeting? Agreed.

The meeting is suspended until 1.30 p.m., when we will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business of the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.25 p.m. and resumed at 1.30 p.m.
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