COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Apr 2024

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme, and any other business. The minutes of our meeting on 11 April 2024 have been circulated. Unless any members wish to raise any matters in relation to the minutes, I take it they are agreed. Are they agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

Item number two is accounts and financial statements. One set of accounts and financial statements has been laid before the Houses between 8 April and 12 April of this year. I will ask Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to address these.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The accounts that have been presented relate to the Institute of Public Administration, IPA, for the 2022 period of accounts. They received a clear audit opinion. However, I draw the attention of the committee to the fact they were certified on 25 September and were only presented on 12 April, which is outside the standard timeframe that is allowed. The committee may wish to pursue that with the institute.

An Cathaoirleach

Do any members wish to raise any matters regarding the accounts or financial statements? No.

The figure of €1.4 million, which is related to Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, is for investment in the Curragh Racecourse Limited. It came up last week. On recollection, I think we looked for further information on that. It is due before the committee sometime in the near future.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think it is the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board that will be before the committee. This account relates to HRI, rather than the regulatory body.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. If we have not done so already, can we ask for a reply from Horse Racing Ireland about that, because that is humiliating? There is now a €9 million loss in total.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

That is only until the end of 2022. We must specifically ask it if there have been further losses in 2023 and what it is doing to address this.

The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned one account that came in after the time that is allowed. Which one was that again?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was the Institute of Public Administration.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, the IPA. We will write to it and we will point this out to it. We will ask it what is being done to correct that late presentation. Can we agree the list of accounts and financial statements? Agreed.

Let us move on to correspondence, which is item number three. This is correspondence that was previously agreed. Items that were not flagged for discussion in this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken in relation to correspondence will be recorded in the minutes and will be published on the committee's web page.

Four items have been flagged under category B, namely, correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers and follow-up to meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts. The first is No. 2481B, which is from Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General at the Department of Justice. She wrote back to us to provide the information we requested in relation to public services apprenticeship programmes for junior investigators in the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. Is it agreed to note and publish that item of correspondence? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy had flagged this item and she wishes to comment on it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have a few follow-up questions for her. Will that programme be available on a part-time basis? Will it be open to graduates or mature students?

What are the criteria for eligibility? It would be useful to get those. It is a welcome development but I would like to get some extra information.

An Cathaoirleach

The letter states:

This programme will lead to awards up to NFQ Level 9 for participants. Work to develop and accredit the course materials has begun... Delivery of the programme to staff is due to commence in the 2025 Spring Semester.

We will put those additional questions to them.

No. 2499B, dated 8 April, is from Ms Oonagh Buckley, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The correspondence provides information requested by the committee regarding the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC. It is proposed to note and publish this item, except for the attached document (iii), which is an extract of the requirements included in the tender and which the Department has requested not to be published for obvious reasons. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged this for discussion.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there a proactive or a reactive approach? For example, does the NCSC have any role in auditing risks in various Departments and does it follow up on issues that are identified? We are thinking about mitigating risks so we are taking a preventative approach rather than a reactive approach when something happens. I know there are attacks all of the time but, in practical terms, I would like to know what it is that the NCSC does directly with the various Departments or agencies.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I am aware that a new EU directive relating to information security is being rolled out so there is a significant escalation in the oversight of these kinds of risks. As I understand it, the NCSC will have a role, particularly in regard to public bodies, in examining how risks are handled and, more generally, an oversight of how risks are managed within the economy. It might be useful to the committee to get a briefing from the Department on what is planned in that space.

An Cathaoirleach

We will request that. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We move on to No. 2506B from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General of the Department of Justice, dated 8 April 2024. It provides follow-up information requested by the committee at the meeting with the Department on 15 February. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged this for comment.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

With regard to carrier liability, which is dealt with on page 6, how would this be enforced outside our own jurisdiction? Are things identified in this regard? Is draft legislation being prepared and is there a timeline for that? That is obviously for the Department. It would be useful for us to ask to be kept informed on the progress.

An Cathaoirleach

There were two items that I wanted to address in that correspondence. One is the numbers being processed, which goes back to the point made earlier by Deputy Ó Cathasaigh about misinformation. The figures given for 2023 are that there were 13,272 applicants for international protection but only 8,938 were processed. Obviously, we would like to see all of those processed. However, if we look at the first-instance grant and refusal decisions, it is interesting that a total of 8,938 were processed but 5,171 of those were refused, which is completely at odds with what we read online. Those are the figures from the Department of Justice. The figure for refugee status grants was 2,471, so it is nearly two to one. In fairness, with regard to the processing of applications, issues around checking applicants and verifying the details given, the Department seems to be fairly thorough at the moment, although further improvements need to be made and I will not argue with that. Some of us have asked for more thorough checks to be carried out to make sure that those who are genuine are helped because it creates problems if we are not able to do that quickly enough. However, those figures stand out in that there are twice as many first-instance refusals as grants. It is an interesting figure, so I note that.

We asked a question on the median time. This comes from our meeting with the Department of Justice in February, where we asked about first-instance decisions. The time was 18 months but, in 2023, it had reduced to 13 months. Some of the replies we get in the Chamber would lead us to believe that the time for first-instance decisions is a lot shorter than that. We should ask the Department what the plans are to reduce that figure from a median of 13 months because it is still too long for first-instance decisions. I propose that we ask that this be addressed. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 2525B is from the University of Limerick, dated 15 April 2024. This issue came up last week and the week before. The correspondence states that, following approval by the governing authority, the deputy president, Professor Shane Kilcommins, has been designated as the employee who will perform the functions of chief officer, including, and this is the key point, the function of Accounting Officer. It is proposed to note and publish this item. They are coming in front of us very soon and we will discuss this when we get to the work programme. Is everybody okay with that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to ask about the process of doing that. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General need to be informed who the Accounting Officer is?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Normally, we would become aware of it. We are certainly advised when an Accounting Officer is appointed for a Vote and that is communicated to my office, as it is to the committee, but not in the case of a university as standard. Obviously, we would be aware of it. It is a significant development.

An Cathaoirleach

My understanding is that the governing authority made the appointment. The assumption is that when the deputy president took over the role, there was a formal procedure where the governing authority had to make a decision. I welcome the fact that has been done and it allows them to be brought in here in the very near future. We have that on the work programme.

We move on to the next item, which is the work programme. Members have been circulated with a draft work programme discussion document, which is displayed on the screen. Next week, on 25 April, we meet with Inland Fisheries Ireland regarding its 2022 financial statements. Members will recall that this meeting was rescheduled from 7 March. Again, responsibility has been delegated down. We will be joined by the deputy CEO, who has been delegated the function of accountable person to the committee as the CEO, Mr. Francis O'Donnell, is on leave.

On 2 May we will engage with the National Transport Authority on financial statements, BusConnects, the purchase of buses for companies providing public transport. The provision of bus shelters was flagged as an area of interest. If any members have any other issues, such as carbon reduction, now is the chance to get in early.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Local authorities are being grant-aided to work and then the money is sometimes returned. They are notified but they do not get the time to do it. The multi-annual budgeting aspect is probably the key issue in that.

An Cathaoirleach

When you say the budget are you referring-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It tends to be for the active travel initiatives. They get a notification that they can apply for a grant and get it. Then they cannot find anyone to carry out the work - the procurement process is very long - and the money goes back to the Department. It would be useful to include that. Lead-in time is needed for any of these things.

An Cathaoirleach

One of the issues that came up in that area is that they administer the money for footpaths under active travel. One of the issues that comes up is - wait for it - they insist on consultants being brought in to do a design. I do not know about the other members of the committee. The person who told me that a few years ago was an area engineer. I said to him that he is a qualified engineer, and he said he knew that but that it is a requirement to put in a section of footpath. The money was subsequently lost for the reason Deputy Murphy just mentioned. Why would someone in an office in Dublin decide that consultants need to do a design for a footpath? It is bizarre. I am told there are six different gates for it to get through. It might be something we could have a go at. That needs to be addressed by the Minister. We want things to be done properly. This is not to do anything with bad workmanship or running footpaths where they are not needed. The issue is the level of bureaucracy around it. It may not be coming from a political level. I am not sure whether it is even known at a political level. I came across it on the ground because a project was funded, people were told it had been funded and was in the roads programme for that year and then it disappeared. No one could figure out why and councillors got it in the neck over it. The reason was the insistence on this ridiculous situation where a design has to be done by external consultants. Any engineer in a local authority would do. The overseer, the road ganger could do it, never mind the engineer designing it. They would put in a cycle path and a footpath running into a housing estate. It is ridiculous stuff.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I do not think we will be at cross-purposes in this discussion. It looks like I would be lead questioner on that issue. We should flag active travel as it has been an area of huge growth in expenditure and I would be very interested in that issue. Active travel teams have been put into every council and they are supposed to recruit into those roles and build in-house capacity. I would be interested to know how much of the funding for active travel has gone to consultancies.

An Cathaoirleach

One of the other things that is happening with this is that although the area engineer deals internally in the council, working with the councillors and other council staff, an active travel project can happen in their area and they will not have a clue what is going on because it is a completely separate channel. That needs to be dealt with at local authority level. The area engineer needs to be the person responsible for roadworks, including active travel in their area, or it could be someone working under them. They are actually separated. The Department insists on this clear separation along with having the design of footpaths done by external consultants, which costs a fortune. It is a total waste of money and time and I am told it has to go through six separate gates with a back and forward with the Department. Building a new school only has to go through four gates, but putting in a footpath has to go through six.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is an unequal distribution of staff resources across the country. Some of that is for historical reasons. As the population grows, the staff component does not grow and there is an impediment to growing it by virtue of the fact that artificial baselines are included in local government funding, especially as it relates to local property tax. Doing it in house is just not an option in some local authorities.

An Cathaoirleach

If they are given an additional engineer, which is the case-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

They have all been given additional engineers. The problem is that many of those roles cannot be filled and they cannot find the competencies, because, whatever about engineers, behavioural change people are also needed who are experts at community engagement. We all know about active travel in our communities, that if we get out and explain it to people, there will be much better buy-in. A whole range of skills are needed. They have been funded, but many of the roles have not been recruited for.

An Cathaoirleach

I can only talk about my neck of the woods. The additional engineers have been granted. The problem is that it is two different silos.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, but very often if you are going to make an application - I accept the point that an engineer has to be appointed and that it is difficult to recruit them - it may be that it has to happen via a regional office which would have expertise that can be drawn on.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is in the programme for Government.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There are issues. We should put it on that list. Local authorities are not even applying when they have viable projects because they cannot spend the money within the timeframe.

An Cathaoirleach

Well, €200,000 was lost. I take on board what Deputy Murphy said. In this case it was not lost because of the local authority, but because of the insistence on consultants.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

They could not be got, whereas an engineer - any engineer and there are engineers - could put it together in a few days. That is the point I am making. We will have the big discussion later.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Active travel, certainly.

An Cathaoirleach

We will ask about active travel. We are mainly talking about cycleways, walking routes and footpaths.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

We will move on to 9 May. As I said earlier, we now have an Accounting Officer, Mr. Kilcommins, so we will engage with the University of Limerick about financial statements. I note the president will be absent so the chancellor has been requested to attend, as have representatives of the Higher Education Authority, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

On 16 May, we will engage with the Department of Education on the following areas of interest that have been flagged: running costs and demand management of schools; school building programmes; school transport; disposal of assets of religious orders; and Caranua.

On 23 May, we will engage with the Department of Defence, which we have never had before the committee during this mandate, on Vote 36 – Defence, and chapter 2 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report, which I highlighted, that relates to stock management in the Defence Forces.

On 30 May, we will meet with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board regarding its 2022 financial statements.

On 13 June, we will engage with the Office of Public Works, OPW, on Vote 13 – Office of Public Works. I propose that we flag the proposed national children’s science museum project as an area of interest for this meeting. It has come up before and we have not been able to address it. I mentioned it to the clerk yesterday.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

One of the matters we engaged with the OPW on before was the number of vacant properties it had. It would be useful to return to that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Flood relief schemes come under the remit of the OPW.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are any special reports due in the upcoming period?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Not at the moment. There are a number in preparation.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I imagine that this will be dealt with in correspondence next week. I wrote to the committee secretariat about the Road Safety Authority. This can be checked with the secretariat, but I believe the authority's representatives have not appeared before the committee since 2006. I know the matter is topical and that the Minister is doing a job of work in respect of it.

An Cathaoirleach

We actually have the letter here.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thought we were not going to be taking it until next week.

An Cathaoirleach

We will get to it soon.

Last week, it was agreed to schedule meetings with the Department of Transport and Waterways Ireland. The secretariat has been in contact with both regarding availability. It is proposed to hold a meeting with Waterways Ireland on 4 July. Is that agreed? Agreed. No suitable date before the summer recess is available to meet with the Department of Transport, so I propose that we schedule the meeting for early autumn. Is that agreed?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Why is that?

An Cathaoirleach

I will come back to the Deputy in a minute. I will get a note on it.

That leaves three available meeting slots before the summer recess. The committee previously agreed to examine the 2022 financial statements of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, when they are ready. There is a chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report on estates management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The latter is the parent Department of IHRB.

I have also received a proposal from Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh to hold a meeting with the Road Safety Authority. On that day, it would be useful to have officials from the Departments of Transport and Justice present.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Comptroller and Auditor General will tell me which Vote the authority comes under, given that he has audited it previously.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Road safety is under the Department of Transport, I think.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When are the accounts of Irish Water due?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Very soon. From memory, I think I just cleared them. Let me see if I can find a timeline. It is probably in the next month.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If they are cleared, will they be published then?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Once the audit is completed, I review the accounts and clear them for signing. They then go back to the board. It needs to produce the signed financial statements and then I certify them. There are a couple of steps in it and then it goes to the Department and gets published.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It would be optimistic to think we would deal with them on this side of the recess.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is possible, but it would be very tight. I am not sure of the exact timeline for publication of its annual report.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is a very sizeable amount of money and I would like to see them here.

An Cathaoirleach

The secretariat has been in contact with the Department of Transport. The Secretary General of that Department will be out of the country for work reasons in the last week of June and the first week of July. The officials would be available in the second week of July, but not in the morning slot. I suggest that we need them in for a full hearing and that we should not confine ourselves to a small slot in the afternoon. We will also put the Road Safety Authority into the mix. Is it agreed that we should schedule meetings with these three entities before the summer recess? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today. Do any members wish to raise any issues under any other business? No. We will move into private session before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on 25 April 2024 when we will engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland.

The committee went into private session at 2.14 p.m. and adjourned at 2.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 25 April 2024.