I propose to take items 6 to 11, and then item No. 3 on the Order Paper.
Order of Business.
May I ask what is the position with regard to the question I gave notice of?
The Deputy gave notice of a question which was not in a form that seemed to be in accord with the Standing Orders. I suggested to him yesterday that we might get a form that would be suitable. We did not succeed in getting such a form.
In my opinion this is a direct invasion of the liberty of members to ask a question.
The Standing Orders prescribe, for asking questions, a particular scheme. That scheme has worked so successfully that until this particular instance there was never a case since September, 1922, when a Deputy was available for consultation and the form of a question could not be agreed on. As a general rule the Deputy brings the question to the office. If the clerks take exception to anything in the question agreement is nearly always reached. If the clerks cannot succeed in satisfying the Deputy he sees the Ceann Comhairle. Within the last couple of years there have been very few cases where a Deputy thought it necessary to see the Ceann Comhairle, but in every case where that was done a satisfactory solution was reached. In this case it has not been reached. The only thing that I can say to Deputy de Valera is that this is the scheme under the Standing Orders. If he wants to change it he must change the Standing Orders. It is not contemplated that a Deputy may put down a question, without any regard to Standing Orders, in any form he pleases.
I submit that that is not the situation. The Standing Order is quite clear.
What does the Deputy propose to argue on the Standing Orders?
What I propose arguing is that my question is directly in accordance with the Standing Order. The Ceann Comhairle has not shown in what manner——
The Standing Order gives a discretion to the Ceann Comhairle.
No, there are definite rules set down.
There are rules for the Ceann Comhairle to observe. The Standing Order clearly does not give the Deputy a right to raise in the House, in this particular fashion at any rate, the form of question which he wants to put. As I pointed out yesterday—and it was pointed out before—if a Deputy can read out in the House the question he wants to ask and which is deemed to be not in order then, in fact, any Deputy can ask any question or what purports to be a question in any form he pleases. Therefore the point of order cannot be raised in the House.
Where can it be raised?
I do not think it can be raised at all.
Therefore the Ceann Comhairle can rule as he pleases quite irrespective of the Standing Orders and of their plain intention.
The Ceann Comhairle can interpret the Standing Orders with regard to questions, and the matter cannot be raised in the House on a specific question except by way of indicting the Ceann Comhairle for an improper performance of his duty. A Parliamentary assembly, working as this one does, cannot work on any other scheme. If the Deputy thinks of another scheme, then that will have to be incorporated in the Standing Orders. A point of order cannot be raised by citing a question in a form which has been ruled out. If it is deemed that the Ceann Comhairle has improperly performed his duty he can be indicated for it, but there is no scheme by which a Deputy who is dissatisfied can get up in the House and say that he is dissatisfied and that the Ceann Camhairle is wrong.
And the scheme apparently was that there should be a private conversation with the Ceann Comhairle, and the Ceann Comhairle, by his public action in misrepresenting my attitude when I went to see him privately, made it impossible for me to do it. We have to do it therefore by proxy.
I have no recollection of having misrepresented the Deputy.
What about the interview?
If the Deputy wants to go into that or any other matter he will have to do it in a regular way. There is no scheme by which the Deputy can rise in his place to attack the Ceann Comhairle in a casual fashion, no matter who the Deputy may be or who the Ceann Comhairle may be and no matter under what form of Constitution the House is working. It is an impossible scheme.
As this is a matter of urgent public importance I propose under Standing Order 27 to move the adjournment of the House to discuss it.
The Deputy has given me no notice that he was going to do this. If he reads the Standing Order he will find that it prescribes that notice shall be given in writing to the Ceann Comhairle of the subject to be discussed.
The Standing Order is:
A motion for the adjournment of the Dáil on a definite matter of urgent public importance may be made, if a Deputy at the commencement of public business rises in his place, and states that he requests leave to move the adjournment of the Dáil for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, whereupon he shall state the matter —I propose to state the matter— and deliver to the Ceann Comhairle a written statement of the subject to be discussed.
I have it here and I can deliver it to the Ceann Comhairle in a written form. I propose definitely to follow the sequence of the Standing Order. The matter that I ask leave for the adjournment of the House to discuss is the advisability——
Has this matter been handed to the Ceann Comhairle in writing?
The Standing Order I submit is definitely clear. There is no misunderstanding. It states that the motion for the adjournment of the Dáil on a matter of urgent public importance may be made if a Deputy at the commencement of public business rises in his place and states that he requests leave to move the adjournment of the Dáil for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance — I have done the first part. I have stated that I wished to move the adjournment of the House —"whereupon he shall state the matter"—I propose to do that first—"and deliver to the Ceann Comhairle a written statement of the subject to be discussed." I propose to go in sequence. I am going to state the matter and simultaneously hand to the Ceann Comhairle a copy of my statement. If that does not obey the Standing Order I do not know what does. The matter that I wish to move the adjournment of the House to have discussed is this:—
The advisability, in view of the likelihood of President Hoover's proposal for a moratorium on inter-governmental payments being accepted, of immediately taking steps to see that appropriate representations are made to secure that the land annuities and other sums totalling over five million pounds sent by us annually to Britain are included in the category of payments to which the moratorium will apply without prejudice to the claim that any future Irish Government may make that these payments are not justly due.
That is the question I wish to ask the Minister, to find out whether he was taking these steps.
I thought the Deputy desired to move the adjournment of the House?
I have moved it. I ask leave of the House accordingly that this matter be taken up on the adjournment.
As a matter of interest what was the matter that the Deputy in forty-eight hours could not make up his mind to frame a proper question on?
I made up my mind and presented my question but the Ceann Comhairle ruled it out of order.
Probably I was wrong. The Deputy found it impossible so to frame his question as to have it accepted.
Is this matter in order?
No, it is not. The Deputy has given notice that he desires to discuss this matter as a definite matter of public importance under Standing Order 27. On the question of notice the Deputy seems to me to be correct in stating that under the Standing Order the procedure is that he shall state the matter and deliver to the Ceann Comhairle a written statement of the subject to be discussed. In order to enable the Ceann Comhairle to make up his mind on the matter it has always been the practice—and it would seem a proper practice—that the Ceann Comhairle should get notice when he is being asked to take a decision under this particular Standing Order. The Ceann Comhairle shall, if he considers the motion is one contemplated by this Standing Order, desire the Deputies who support the request to rise in their places. I do not consider that this matter is one contemplated by the Standing Order.